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Thread: Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    except in the 3rd Carthaginian-roman war in 146BC, the whole population was taken to southern Italy as slaves...Carthage was destroyed, the city was pulled down to ground level, the pine trees all cut down for Roman shipping, drinking water poisoned and the soil salted. We are talking here of a complete movement of people.
    Still E-V13 expanded into Neolithic in Europe so i doubt 146 BC Carthaginians could have contributed to any meaningful E-V13 in Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Have you considered the Arbereshe?
    Albanians (Arbereshe) were granted land in the Kingdom of Naples as early as the 1450s (Demetrio Reres) with a full scale migration after Skanderbegs death (~1470s and throughout the 16th cen.).

    That would fit your time-range.

    Boattini et al (2010)
    modern Arbereshe Y-DNA in comparrison with modern Albanian Y-DNA (after ~500 years apart)
    http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2010/07/...eshe-from.html

    Unfortunately the chart doesnt specify the subclades:
    E1b1b1a
    Arbereshe = 28%
    Albanian = 23%

    I-M170
    Arbereshe = 23%
    Albanian = 17%

    R1a1
    Arbereshe = 13%
    Albanian = 13%


    But acc. to Cruciani et al (2007) E-V13 in South Italy = 8.51% / Sicily = 7.19% / Albania = 32.29%
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

    This Ethnographic map from 1859, shows a subsatntial Arberesh (in Green) area near [prob. around] Matera.

    Other areas of Arbereshe in Lucania (Basilicata) are the Monte Vulture area Ginestra / Barile / Maschito
    I tend to agree with this comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    The difference in Arberesh is that never settle in Albania,
    After Maniakis death they migrated to modern Albania from Italy, they revolt and they moved to Peloponese, (around 1040-1100 AD)
    where they were forced to leave by Turkish admiral Barbaros,
    ..... What?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prengu View Post
    Your data are all wrong.
    Up +35-40% are E-V13, 22-28% R1b, 12-14% J2e, 6% I1 (exclusive is scandinavian/german), 3-5% I2b, R1a 2-3%

    so R1b is second most common haplogroup among Albanians and is most highest in Balkan.

    E-V13, R1b dhe J2e were at least more 8000 years that lived in Balkan/Anatolia.
    Those are suppose to be Kosovo haplogroups from Pericic, but you have gotten them wrong too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    Those are suppose to be Kosovo haplogroups from Pericic, but you have gotten them wrong too.
    No, I counted all Albanians (Albania-Kosova-Macedonia).

    40% of E-V13 and 27% R1b found among Albanians from Albania (Roewer et 2005)
    34.8% of E-V13 and 19% R1b found among Albanians from Macedonia (Battaglia et 2008)
    and 43.5% of V-13 and 21.5 % among Albanians from Kosova (Pericic 2005)

    So average of V-13 is about 35-40%. Same goes about other haplogroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    in fact taulanti is area of tiranacause we know it was next to epidamnus (durres) and Apollonia,,
    enceleians are next to lake ohrid,

    tosk is a slavic word or thracian
    in Greece we find the name tositsas - toskas - tokas among thracians of north East, and is connected with armani and Phanariotes (Greek -romanians from moldo-wallachia)
    in fact a minister was name Averov - Tositsas and was Greek from Moldo-wallachia
    Tokas is a common name to exchanged populations among Bulgaria and Greece at 1920-30
    comes from tuk - tak here
    in fact tosk and tok means local

    In fact there is an explanation in Albanian for the word Tosk for example Tok, that is tosk dialect, means: together, around. Also Tokë means Land, ground terrain.

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    After this many post what is conclusion??

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    thats not true?arbanties migrated in few waves in 12ctry,13th,14th,,not 11ctry,.arbanties use our laws.they use the besa witch is only from north albania and montenegro,what tribe you hail from vella.you would be from same ancestor as myself,,thessaly in greece has the highest population of ev-13,you an me both know kosova albanians come from same tribes as us krasnichi,piperi,vaskechi, etc.now back to thessaly in greece most of the greeks of that reigion share same dna as us to north an kosova use same traditions and use our code the besa witch you know where it come from,what im trying to say thesally is very high population of arbanties,so maybe the arbanties migrated downwards long time ago an we stayed.what i do know about us ghegs is that we have still alot of pre indo european than many dont use anymore including the nasal vowels from the old times,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prengu View Post
    No, I counted all Albanians (Albania-Kosova-Macedonia).

    40% of E-V13 and 27% R1b found among Albanians from Albania (Roewer et 2005)
    34.8% of E-V13 and 19% R1b found among Albanians from Macedonia (Battaglia et 2008)
    and 43.5% of V-13 and 21.5 % among Albanians from Kosova (Pericic 2005)

    So average of V-13 is about 35-40%. Same goes about other haplogroups.
    when you said albania has diffrent genetics to kosova albanians less percent than kosova albanians correct me if im wrong,,northern dilect an kosova dilect is easy to speak an can understand eachother?yes they do i know this,,but what i said belong is that most of the kosova albanians comefromt he tribe of north albania so this would mean that not incuding albanians to north to this table would make the genetics far less as the northern are the same people of kosova,kelmendi,hoti,are tribes of north albanian catholics,rugova albanians hail from the tribes of kelmendi,krasnichi tribe hails from the tribe of hoti both tribes northern an the biggest tribe of kosova is krasnichi an kelmendi,,do agree?

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    i dont want to insult but i think i know why he did so to your fathers grandfather,im from kelmendi an im not allowed to marry a woman from the tribe of gashi,,all the tribes of albania all fought eachother over lands crops etc,,all this happens still..i dont know if gashi tribe follows the kanuni but just a simple insult to a albanian from tribes whom follow the kanuni can result in death,the reason why i cant marry from gashi tribe is because many albanians from gashi tribe worked for the ottomans an more i will stop their because i dont want to insult you in anyway.the kelmendi an hoti are very strict we only mix from same tribe to preserve the blood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    If the Romans did not know of Slavs but knew about sarmatians, then when these "Slavs" migrated to the balkans in the 6th century, where did they come from?
    I say "pure" slavs , because slovene, croat and serbian historians do not say they are slavs but say they speak a slavic tongue.
    Since the sarmatians where the ones that migrated into the balkans are they slavs and if so, why did no Roman historian recognise them as slavs.
    behind the carpathian mountians,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    This Ethnographic map from 1859, shows a subsatntial Arberesh (in Green) area near [prob. around] Matera.

    Other areas of Arbereshe in Lucania (Basilicata) are the Monte Vulture area Ginestra / Barile / Maschito
    In Matera there were not Arbereshe.

    And this map is very old, inaccurate and utterly wrong. It should be deleted and not used. In the extreme Southern Calabria (modern-day province of Reggio Calabria) there are not Arbereshe, but it's a well-known Greek area, called Bovesia (the other well-known Greek area is Salento in Puglia). In Eastern Sicily (modern-day province of Messina and Catania) there are not Arbereshe but it's a Greek and Lombard area. Puglia also in this map is completely wrong. And even province of Cosenza is wrong.

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    This map is right.

    But just consider that today many Arbereshe settlements are not anymore so Arbereshe. And the map is based on the whole municipal territory. And not in the whole district is spoken the minority language. I hope You understand what I mean.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Still E-V13 expanded into Neolithic in Europe so i doubt 146 BC Carthaginians could have contributed to any meaningful E-V13 in Italy.
    I agree with You. E-V13 was carried by Neolithic farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olgerk View Post
    In fact there is an explanation in Albanian for the word Tosk for example Tok, that is tosk dialect, means: together, around. Also Tokë means Land, ground terrain.
    According to Vladimir Orel (Albanian Etymological Dictionary, 1998) Toske is a Gheg word borrowed from medieval Venetian (Venetian, Romance language derived from Latin) used to name the people from South. So Toske is an exonym and its meaning derives from Latin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    originally I think they were not ...
    genetic is very different, and from what I heard dialects are quite different...

    Tosks could be albanized Greek Epirot-Slavic mix....with Albanization taking place with spread of Albanians in times of collapse of Byzantine empire.
    Genetics seems to confirm just that.

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    I belive gheg language was the mother of albanian languages,,i see alot of people saying arbreshe were tosks,,but if you look close you will see much older words shared with ghegs than of tosks,look at their nasal vowels,with gheg albanians its hard to explain to them because they live in tribal structures, they may have a high percent of ev-13 because they were not exposed to much to others,I do know the kosova albanians at one point were catholic albanians whom moved to kosova in 1700s well meaning albanians from tirbes of hoti,an kelmendi fled their only few from these tribes to live with other albanians from reigion,an they only mix with albanians from same tribes as they do from north albania,i think much has to do with the kanuni,
    Last edited by ukaj; 09-06-13 at 13:10. Reason: mistake

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    This map is right.

    But just consider that today many Arbereshe settlements are not anymore so Arbereshe. And the map is based on the whole municipal territory. And not in the whole district is spoken the minority language. I hope You understand what I mean.



    nice......but in the 2012 map they have a split seperating the 2 lombardys ( although the rest is same /similar to yours)


    http://digidownload.libero.it/alpdn/...uePadanesi.png
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    According to Vladimir Orel (Albanian Etymological Dictionary, 1998) Toske is a Gheg word borrowed from medieval Venetian (Venetian, Romance language derived from Latin) used to name the people from South. So Toske is an exonym and its meaning derives from Latin.
    no such word in venetian...the closest is tosek which means poison.

    albanexe is similar to the italian for albanian

    i found this in bold what you said 2 years ago
    The name Tosk, (Albanian toskë), was borrowed from Venetian tosko or tosco that probably means "rough, crude", literally "tuscan". "Tosco" in Old Tuscan dialect means "poison", "poisonous" (Cfr. Dante, Non pomi v' eran, ma stecchi con tosco. Dante Inf XIII)

    the venetian words for rough are:
    grubian
    ruspido
    sgruxlo
    rough person = bagian

    and
    crude is bioto

    so Dante meant poison and if tosk is from the venetian then its as stated above, which means poison

    toscan is tuscan in venetian and the saying is "lurido come un toscan"........lurid like a tuscan

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    According to Vladimir Orel (Albanian Etymological Dictionary, 1998) Toske is a Gheg word borrowed from medieval Venetian (Venetian, Romance language derived from Latin) used to name the people from South. So Toske is an exonym and its meaning derives from Latin.
    Tosk is after Tosco (Tocca) Italian family.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
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    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    no such word in venetian...the closest is tosek which means poison.
    It's medieval Venetian (not the Venetian modern language spoken by your ancestors emigrated to Australia). I strongly doubt that You know the medieval Venetian. And You always miss the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    the venetian words for rough are:
    grubian
    ruspido
    sgruxlo
    rough person = bagian

    and
    crude is bioto
    This is modern Venetian dialect! It's a waste of time with You.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    I belive gheg language was the mother of albanian languages,,i see alot of people saying arbreshe were tosks,,but if you look close you will see much older words shared with ghegs than of tosks,look at their nasal vowels,with gheg albanians its hard to explain to them because they live in tribal structures,
    It's not something that people say, Arbereshe is classiffied as tosk by serious linguists. And Arbereshe have in many case surnames of Greek origin and They mostly came from Arvanites-language Greece places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    It's medieval Venetian (not the Venetian modern language spoken by your ancestors emigrated to Australia). I strongly doubt that You know the medieval Venetian. And You always miss the point.
    link it and I will read it for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    link it and I will read it for you.
    No need, thanks. You are the most expert on Venetian in the world. I sadly admit. Bye.

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