Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

Hey guys, what do you think about this?
It's the genetic makeup of a supposedly dacian man, who lived in hungary in the 8th century, that when tested, scored closest to kosovo albanians and tosk albanians.
His haplogroup is R1a.
https://ibb.co/KDKPP4J

This is very rare in albanians today how did you make this claim? R1a z93 is almost non existant in albanians, there is this -

[FONT=&quot]"The Corded Ware period was followed in the steppes by the [/FONT]Srubna culture[FONT=&quot] (1800-1200 BCE), and around Poland by the [/FONT]Trzciniec culture[FONT=&quot] (1700-1200 BCE). [/FONT]Mathieson et al. (2015)[FONT=&quot] and [/FONT]Krzewinska et al. (2018)[FONT=&quot] each retrieved the Y-DNA from six Srubna individuals, and all 12 of them belonged to haplogroup R1a. Those tested for deep clades were positive for Z93, the Indo-Iranian branch."

But I've also heard that Roma people carry Z93? [/FONT]
 
Distances over 5 are considered relatively far. Sample/burial is also classified as Avar and the R1a is Z93(not generally common in the Balkan R1a variety). Probably a low quality sample. Though I do know a few Albanian women with that mtDNA.

The guy who sent me this said that it was classified as avar just because who researched it found it in a part of hungary that was settled by avars.
 
R1a/I2a is not diverse/dominant among Albanians. The greatest diversity can be found in Central/Central-East Europe. Most clades in Albanians only have founder effects/bottlenecks that date from late antiquity to early medieval with tribes north of the Danube. There is also no Dacian graves. The closest of which(Thracian) bore R1a-Z93 - unrelated to modern Z93 clades(Bronze Age) and E-V13(Iron Age). Bronze Age sites in Serbia(Mokra) had J2b-L283 and R1b. Bronze Age Dalmatian sample was also J2b-L283.

The only ancient DNA for most Balkan derived R1a/I2a can be sought further North. I am sure some became part of cultures but saying Proto-Albanians were possibly originally R1a/I2a and Dacian is a big stretch. No evidence to support either.

Thank you very much for your reply, really appreciate it.

I really can't find updated studies on genetics, linguistics and history, I really hate this difficulty of mine.

I know it sounds lazy out of me, but if you'd like, would you help me by providing some autosomal/Y-DNA studies about illyrians, thracians, dacians and ancient populations as a whole, and how they relate do modern albanians?

Thank you very much!
 
Very Good observations! Yes you have no genetic knowledge. As such is better for you to shut up!


I'm asking questions here and trying to learn, what's wrong with that?
 
This is very rare in albanians today how did you make this claim? R1a z93 is almost non existant in albanians, there is this -

[FONT=&quot]"The Corded Ware period was followed in the steppes by the [/FONT]Srubna culture[FONT=&quot] (1800-1200 BCE), and around Poland by the [/FONT]Trzciniec culture[FONT=&quot] (1700-1200 BCE). [/FONT]Mathieson et al. (2015)[FONT=&quot] and [/FONT]Krzewinska et al. (2018)[FONT=&quot] each retrieved the Y-DNA from six Srubna individuals, and all 12 of them belonged to haplogroup R1a. Those tested for deep clades were positive for Z93, the Indo-Iranian branch."

But I've also heard that Roma people carry Z93? [/FONT]

Thanks for the info
 
Guys, to all those who are wondering:

I'm not here to claim random stuff and troll, i'm here because I wanna learn and because I see value in people like Dibran, Johane Derite, Trojet, Fatherland, Laberia and many others.

I see this thread as so static and dead and wanna keep it alive when I can + as I said, I have a hard time finding good sources.

I'm interested in genetics, history and language, and would like to really learn factual stuff in regards to these.

Can you give me a good list of books regarding the albanian language and history (particularly in regards to arvanites, first sources that testify albanian presence in the balkans and also what we know about albanians during late antiquity)

Thanks in advance, I'd really appreciate it.
 
Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

Recently there has been a very large increase in sample size for Albanian population from inside Albania and neighboring countries.
They are under a Project called Rrenjet. Its Rrenjet dot com.
The sample is all Y dna tests and above 1,000 samples. The sample size is large enough, well spread and with a good % of high resolution test to help better understand the question posted on this thread.
I am not saying there was not data before but now we can have much more clarity.




I-Y3120
 
The Rrenjet sample has a bit above to 1,000 Y dna results with good representation between north/Geg and south/Tosk. Sample size can be found here: rrenjet dot com. Apparently I cant post links without a certain nr of posts.
Based on this large and well balanced sample size (I have done a slight recalibration of sample size) haplogroup distribution in Albania is as follows:
- R1b-M269 - 20%
3% is R-PF7563 which based on its distribution and very high diversity looks like EBA. PF7563 seems to have a particularly high concentration compare to other countries in albanians/west balkans. from Bosnia to Korca area. The initial indication, based on subclades and tmrca means that its presence in greece is linked to Arvanitas movement and not antiquity.
16% is R-Z2103 particularly subclade Z2705, most likely LBA in northwest Balkans, that also has the highest diversity among Albanians also. They have a presence in each of the subclades below Z2705.
1% other R1b mostly L51
- J2b2-L283 - 16%
1% is clade Z631. The rest of L283 based on distribution, diversity looks like MBA in west Balkans.
- E-V13 - 28% Large diversity and distribution. Looks like LBA-IA in west Balkans
- I-Y3120 - 8%.
The North Dinaric portion is a bit larger than South Dinaric. Higher concentration south of Albania particularly as one gets closer to Greek-Albanian border. Based on high resolution tests majority seem to be from the initial sllavic migration 6-7 AD and not from the Bulgarian or Serbian kingdoms.
- R1a - 7.5%.
Same thing. Most seems to be from early sllavic migrations to the region.
- I-M253 - 5.5%. Fits with Gothic migration in the Balkans.
- J2a-M410 - 5%. Concentration mostly in the south. Some also in the north. Bronze Age distribution. Most clades seem to have a large distance with paralel clades from other countries. Not close to Greek J2a thus far.
- J-M267 - 3%. Concentration mostly in the south. Most of it Iron age distribution.
- I-M223 - 2.5%. some of it appears Gothic distribution. The rest looks like a Bronze Age distribution in west balkans.
- G - 1 %. Some Neolithic and some Bronze age.
- E-M123 - 1%. Most should be Roman period.
- Other

There is also inside the sample smaller samples from the minorities in Albania.
Golloborda
Vlach/Aromanians
Greek minority in the south.
 
Lets see how much of the Albanian Y DNA is truly Albanian

They are all Albanian now, the important question here, like in the Greek case, is which line or which lines were the carriers of the Albanian language?


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Lets see how much of the Albanian Y DNA is truly Albanian

Based on the current numbers around 73% are lines that continue from neolithic/bronze and iron. most is bronze and iron.
the rest is slavic, gothic and celts plus smaller other.
Of course more and deeper tests will give even more clarity but this looks like a solid interpretation based on the current data as far as Y dna is concerned.
 
They are all Albanian now, the important question here, like in the Greek case, is which line or which lines were the carriers of the Albanian language?




I agree. The more important thing is to understand how this groups were layered on top of each other and how they influenced the mix.
 
They are all Albanian now, the important question here, like in the Greek case, is which line or which lines were the carriers of the Albanian language?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Impossible to answer especially without ancient dna though you can rule out i2a-din and some r1a, you can rule out all j2a and j1 - some of these seem to be from greeks or roman period and some recent

I believe proto albanian language was formed by 2 or more "illyrian" groups that survived and expanded post early roman era

Group 1 = combination of v13 + maybe some r1a and some i1/i2 m223

And

Group 2 = dardani illyrians = j2b l283 + r1b z2103

PF7563 is likely too old to have anything to do with illyrians and it is not frequent enough to be important in carrying proto albanian language at 3.5% - though for some reason it it still most common in albanians. Maybe pf7563 is proto illyrian or ancient greek, or something to do with urnfield? Either way it looks to have survived mainly amongst albanians tho clearly outnumbered
 
Impossible to answer especially without ancient dna though you can rule out i2a-din and some r1a, you can rule out all j2a and j1 - some of these seem to be from greeks or roman period and some recent
I believe proto albanian language was formed by 2 or more "illyrian" groups that survived and expanded post early roman era
Group 1 = combination of v13 + maybe some r1a and some i1/i2 m223
And
Group 2 = dardani illyrians = j2b l283 + r1b z2103
PF7563 is likely too old to have anything to do with illyrians and it is not frequent enough to be important in carrying proto albanian language at 3.5% - though for some reason it it still most common in albanians. Maybe pf7563 is proto illyrian or ancient greek, or something to do with urnfield? Either way it looks to have survived mainly amongst albanians tho clearly outnumbered
That's a tough question and may be the language carrier would be the last question to be solved but from the main haplgoups that are more specific to albanians:
E-V13 its a candidate but I doubt it was the language carrier. considering e-v13 spread in the thracians as well if they were the language carriers there would have been stronger similarities among Illyran and Thracians. I know its an indirect argument but its worth putting on the table.
In my opinion the best candidates are R1b-PF7563, J2b2 and R1b-Z2103. Despite the fact that E-V13 has a high % in the current population its arrival is too late compare to the other haplos in antiquity.
As of these three candidates I can't say. may be J2b2 has a better chance.
Regarding PF7563 it has nothing to do with the greeks as of today based on DNA tests. all greeks as of today that have PF7563 are linked to Arvanitas movements. Based on DNA test PF7563 is spread from Bosnia to Korca region. it has very good diversity and spread but low % in the population as you pointed out. So its definitively a proto Illyrian line. As to the actual role that has played that remains to be discovered.
From some preliminary ancient dna test that are being conduced currently from archeological remains in Albanian territories from north albania PF7562/3 from early bronze age and J2B2 mid and late bronze age has been identifies. nothing has been published yet but these two results are for certain. lets wait as more are in the process.
 
That's a tough question and may be the language carrier would be the last question to be solved but from the main haplgoups that are more specific to albanians:
E-V13 its a candidate but I doubt it was the language carrier. considering e-v13 spread in the thracians as well if they were the language carriers there would have been stronger similarities among Illyran and Thracians. I know its an indirect argument but its worth putting on the table.
In my opinion the best candidates are R1b-PF7563, J2b2 and R1b-Z2103. Despite the fact that E-V13 has a high % in the current population its arrival is too late compare to the other haplos in antiquity.
As of these three candidates I can't say. may be J2b2 has a better chance.
Regarding PF7563 it has nothing to do with the greeks as of today based on DNA tests. all greeks as of today that have PF7563 are linked to Arvanitas movements. Based on DNA test PF7563 is spread from Bosnia to Korca region. it has very good diversity and spread but low % in the population as you pointed out. So its definitively a proto Illyrian line. As to the actual role that has played that remains to be discovered.
From some preliminary ancient dna test that are being conduced currently from archeological remains in Albanian territories from north albania PF7562/3 from early bronze age and J2B2 mid and late bronze age has been identifies. nothing has been published yet but these two results are for certain. lets wait as more are in the process.

Likely V13 came from east and split into illyrians and thracians early on - some moved to west balkans some stayed in east. Some v13 in east europe is actually albanian anyway not thracian. The romans used illyrians first in their army and with them spread the genetics across europe - that is why v13 looks so widespread.

Most thracians were wiped out and lost their language to south slavs ( some to romans before) - i doubt all v13 in east europe is thracian at all - it could be thracians carried something completely different which will be determined by ancient dna. As for it being too late - that is also something we can say about r1b z2705 yet a lot of albanians carry it. Illyrians are a younger group than the ancient greeks - they formed after 1000bc which is why i said pf7563 is likely too old to be illyrian

In terms of j2b l283 - it is a candidate for sure but likely it is not enough to carry the proto albanian language especially in the south - the proto albanians were not made up of just 1 or 2 haplogroups - it would be at least 4-5 in order to keep the language alive into modern times
 
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Likely V13 came from east and split into illyrians and thracians early on - some moved to west balkans some stayed in east. Some v13 in east europe is actually albanian anyway not thracian. The romans used illyrians first in their army and with them spread the genetics across europe - that is why v13 looks so widespread.

Most thracians were wiped out and lost their language to south slavs ( some to romans before) - i doubt all v13 in east europe is thracian at all - it could be thracians carried something completely different which will be determined by ancient dna. As for it being too late - that is also something we can say about r1b z2705 yet a lot of albanians carry it. Illyrians are a younger group than the ancient greeks - they formed after 1000bc which is why i said pf7563 is likely too old to be illyrian

In terms of j2b l283 - it is a candidate for sure but likely it is not enough to carry the proto albanian language especially in the south - the proto albanians were not made up of just 1 or 2 haplogroups - it would be at least 4-5 in order to keep the language alive into modern times

Thats why I said proto illyrian for pf7563 and not illyria. we could say the same for j2b2 as well. proto illyrian. We know that Illyrians were identified by name latter than the greeks by the other. we don't know when they actually coalesced around some common identity. it could be recent or much older. we just don't know.
of course all groups carried multiple haplogroups. We have some indoeropean G in albania but we are still trying to pint point the dominant group of a particular wave.
around 45% of bulgarian population today is non slavic haplogroups. so thracians were wiped linguistically but not genetically.
I am not sure why you think that some e-v13 in eastern europe is illyrian. the romans were not involved in east europe much. even east balkans they left quickly.
check out the largest database for albania Y dna at rrenjet dot com. also Yull. I don't see any results to support your e v13 argument .
I agree with you that the lack of j2b2 in the south is a point against j2b2 being the language carriers.
 
Thats why I said proto illyrian for pf7563 and not illyria. we could say the same for j2b2 as well. proto illyrian. We know that Illyrians were identified by name latter than the greeks by the other. we don't know when they actually coalesced around some common identity. it could be recent or much older. we just don't know.
of course all groups carried multiple haplogroups. We have some indoeropean G in albania but we are still trying to pint point the dominant group of a particular wave.
around 45% of bulgarian population today is non slavic haplogroups. so thracians were wiped linguistically but not genetically.
I am not sure why you think that some e-v13 in eastern europe is illyrian. the romans were not involved in east europe much. even east balkans they left quickly.
check out the largest database for albania Y dna at rrenjet dot com. also Yull. I don't see any results to support your e v13 argument .
I agree with you that the lack of j2b2 in the south is a point against j2b2 being the language carriers.

I believe south and north albanians ultimately come from different illyrian (and a few non illyrian) groups - this is why the language not so much but the accent at least is slightly different. It also has to do with the split in the roman era but i doubt that would have such an effect, it likely goes back a few hundred years before that

First of all, Thracians did not only COMPLETELY lose their language to south slavs some of them had already lost it to romans (see romanians and vlachs/aromanians). I believe Romans after conquering illyrians realised they could use them instead of wipe them all out, they were some of the first groups of people conquered. I believe a lot of the v13 found in east europe is from illyrian romans as you will also find r1b u152 and j2a in east europe which came from romans and you again find all 3 widespread in regions romans conquered (spain, france, britain) yet these are in very tiny amount amongst albanians (only a few in south). I believe one day ancient dna will showcase this clearly.

Haplogroup G in albania is very small and likely ancient greek. And yes j2b l283 is a big mystery - it could be anything including illyrian - it may be a thracian representative or something to do with dardani if they were a seperate group or even etruscan

You cannot simply assume that the 45% of non slavic dna in Bulgarians (would be great to have the link to this data) is all thracian but yes likely that thracians were already carrying more than just 1 haplogroup. Like I said thracian dna was already dimished by romans and then even further south slavs - dependant on how much y dna bulgaria carries that is roman or illyrian you can figure out the small percentage that remained of thracian. It is possible thracians carried a form of r1a and maybe r1b - they were sometimes described as redheads
 
I believe south and north albanians ultimately come from different illyrian (and a few non illyrian) groups - this is why the language not so much but the accent at least is slightly different. It also has to do with the split in the roman era but i doubt that would have such an effect, it likely goes back a few hundred years before that

First of all, Thracians did not only COMPLETELY lose their language to south slavs some of them had already lost it to romans (see romanians and vlachs/aromanians). I believe Romans after conquering illyrians realised they could use them instead of wipe them all out, they were some of the first groups of people conquered. I believe a lot of the v13 found in east europe is from illyrian romans as you will also find r1b u152 and j2a in east europe which came from romans and you again find all 3 widespread in regions romans conquered (spain, france, britain) yet these are in very tiny amount amongst albanians (only a few in south). I believe one day ancient dna will showcase this clearly.

Haplogroup G in albania is very small and likely ancient greek. And yes j2b l283 is a big mystery - it could be anything including illyrian - it may be a thracian representative or something to do with dardani if they were a seperate group or even etruscan

You cannot simply assume that the 45% of non slavic dna in Bulgarians (would be great to have the link to this data) is all thracian but yes likely that thracians were already carrying more than just 1 haplogroup. Like I said thracian dna was already dimished by romans and then even further south slavs - dependant on how much y dna bulgaria carries that is roman or illyrian you can figure out the small percentage that remained of thracian. It is possible thracians carried a form of r1a and maybe r1b - they were sometimes described as redheads

I am afraid we are talking about different things. Its not important if some thracians were Latinized or not. We know that thracian language survived till the sllavic migration. That was the essence of the point. the rest could be another conversation.

We can assume a lot of things but for the moment based on dna data of current population and ancient dna there is no indication that e-v13 in east roman is from roman period. on the contrary the data points that somewhere from central/east europe E-V13 spread in all directions especially south during LBA and IA. That is where the largest diversity of e-v13 is and its source of the demographic expansion. unless new data becames available all else is speculation.

As of today based on current result there is absolutely on indication that haplogroup G in albania is from ancient greeks. some of it is neolithic that predates greeks, illyrians ect and some of it is indoeuropean G that came along with R1b and others from north caucasus. so again not based on data.

may be with the expetion of some subclades of J2B2-Z631 that seem to be present in Bulgaria the majority of j2b2 is clearly west balkan and therefore linked with Illyrians. The data is quite clear on this one.

This is not an assumption on the thracians. look at the studies of bulgarian haplos. around 45 have slavic haplos. around 45% seem like old thracian haplos and 10% seem like Celts, Goths and tartar/bulgarians, etc. This are rough nr. the idea is that thracian dna survived in significant nr. the language did not. you can find the data. may be its even in eupedia.
You are over estimating the romans. there is no indication that they left any significant genetic footprint in the balkans. at Rrenjet we cant find much roman dna in the population. we can see dna from migrations but not much from occupations. so lots of sllavic and gothic dna/migrations.
 
I am afraid we are talking about different things. Its not important if some thracians were Latinized or not. We know that thracian language survived till the sllavic migration. That was the essence of the point. the rest could be another conversation.
We can assume a lot of things but for the moment based on dna data of current population and ancient dna there is no indication that e-v13 in east roman is from roman period. on the contrary the data points that somewhere from central/east europe E-V13 spread in all directions especially south during LBA and IA. That is where the largest diversity of e-v13 is and its source of the demographic expansion. unless new data becames available all else is speculation.
As of today based on current result there is absolutely on indication that haplogroup G in albania is from ancient greeks. some of it is neolithic that predates greeks, illyrians ect and some of it is indoeuropean G that came along with R1b and others from north caucasus. so again not based on data.
may be with the expetion of some subclades of J2B2-Z631 that seem to be present in Bulgaria the majority of j2b2 is clearly west balkan and therefore linked with Illyrians. The data is quite clear on this one.
This is not an assumption on the thracians. look at the studies of bulgarian haplos. around 45 have slavic haplos. around 45% seem like old thracian haplos and 10% seem like Celts, Goths and tartar/bulgarians, etc. This are rough nr. the idea is that thracian dna survived in significant nr. the language did not. you can find the data. may be its even in eupedia.
You are over estimating the romans. there is no indication that they left any significant genetic footprint in the balkans. at Rrenjet we cant find much roman dna in the population. we can see dna from migrations but not much from occupations. so lots of sllavic and gothic dna/migrations.

It doesnt make sense for v13 to survive more amongst albanians instead of lets say bulgarians and yet be of thracian origin. The thracians were decimated by romans (and illyrians) - romans placed large amounts of troops to hold it down as they often did for regions FAR from Rome like Britain. This is why you find plenty of roman y dna in places like east europe and britain but where then diminished by south slavs and anglo saxons respectively. It is extremelly important that they not only became latinized but a lot of them lost their language completely

Thracians were almost wiped clean out - those that survived were diminished further by south slavs. There is very little red hair in Albanians where v13 is strong yet there is plenty more blonde (with only 7% i1). You need to understand that the thracians lost everything, land, language, genetics, appearance - you will never see an ancient group survive an invasion with a complete change of language - those that have sustained a language over vast periods of time usually have more continuity in terms of genetics

As things stand right now I would suggest v13 and r1b z2103 are strongest candidates for illyrian expansion but we need ancient dna to confirm. Can you give me access to the bulgarian database?
 
It doesnt make sense for v13 to survive more amongst albanians instead of lets say bulgarians and yet be of thracian origin. The thracians were decimated by romans (and illyrians) - romans placed large amounts of troops to hold it down as they often did for regions FAR from Rome like Britain. This is why you find plenty of roman y dna in places like east europe and britain but where then diminished by south slavs and anglo saxons respectively. It is extremelly important that they not only became latinized but a lot of them lost their language completely

Thracians were almost wiped clean out - those that survived were diminished further by south slavs. There is very little red hair in Albanians where v13 is strong yet there is plenty more blonde (with only 7% i1). You need to understand that the thracians lost everything, land, language, genetics, appearance - you will never see an ancient group survive an invasion with a complete change of language - those that have sustained a language over vast periods of time usually have more continuity in terms of genetics

As things stand right now I would suggest v13 and r1b z2103 are strongest candidates for illyrian expansion but we need ancient dna to confirm. Can you give me access to the bulgarian database?

E-V13 spread during LBA/IA. during this process some became part of the thracians and some Illyrians and some Macedonian as well. so it does not have to be either or.
Bulgarians today have a very high diversity of E-V13. Even higher than albanians. Most of E-V13 today in albanian population is from founder effect after the sllavic migraton. We don't know what % of population E-V13 had before. it could have been higher or lower.
This has nothing to do with red hair.
No I have no access to the bulgarian database but I am sure I have seen results for bulgaria somewhere. for albanian % the most accurate is the Rrenjet as it has the largest sample and very well distributed for all the regions.
 

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