Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

You are fixated with red hair :)

Not as fixated as the ancients who met Thracians!

"Indeed, the ancient Greeks were wary of their Thracian neighbours (the gladiator Spartacus amongst them) and were reluctant to rile them because of their red hair, combative nature and willingness to embroil themselves in a good fight. Depictions on Athenian pottery of glorious battles show the Greeks fighting the mythological Thracian King Rhesus with wild red hair and a pointy beard. The earliest known description of the Thracians’ hair colour comes from the Greek poet Xenophanes in 500 BC who claimed:
“Men make their Gods in their own image… those of the Thracians have blue eyes and red hair”.

Indeed, surviving Thracian tombs in Ostrusha Mound, Bulgaria, have mosaic images of red-haired ancestors and are adorned with the word “Rufus”, the Latin word for red-haired."

Maybe Romans had a fetish for redheads - thats why they tried to settle in britain and ended up losing track of their empire!
 
What year is this from? Albani tribe doesnt mean anything - its just a small name on the map amongst many others - if you are saying this map means they are below illyrians regionally and unrelated you are wrong as you can see the Taulantii below the "Albani" on the map. Taulantii were one of the most powerful and long lasting illyrian tribes -
"Taulantii were an Illyrian people that lived on the Adriatic coast of southern Illyria (modern Albania). They dominated at various times much of the plain between the rivers Drin and Aous. Their central area was the hinterland of Epidermis-Dyrrhachion, corresponding to present-day Tirana and the region between the valleys of Mat and Shkumbin.[2] The Taulantii are among the oldest attested Illyrian peoples, who established a powerful kingdom in southern Illyria.[3] They are among the peoples who most marked Illyrian history, and thus found their place in the numerous works of historians in classical antiquity."
No one has said albanians are made up of ALL illyrians, that is nonsense. Albanians likely formed from several illyrian tribes that spoke similar languages - mostly south illyrians and maybe some people like dardanians and ancient macedonians. Geg albanians maybe formed from a mix of slightly different tribes (family clans) to tosk albanians but still same language - maybe geg albanians had more dardani influence


150AD .....when the first mention of Albani was written ................Romans called it Epirus Nova ....and the Greeks called it Greek Illyria.......Macedonians called it Macedonian Epirot
 
Epidermis-Dyrrhachion or modern Durres was created by Corinthian Greeks after kicking out the Liburnians who used it as a place to repair ships........Corinthians first kicked out the Liburnains of Corfu ( who where there for nearly 200 years ) and then the "repair" place ( durres ) for ships ...all circa 700BC
 
Epidermis-Dyrrhachion or modern Durres was created by Corinthian Greeks after kicking out the Liburnians who used it as a place to repair ships........Corinthians first kicked out the Liburnains of Corfu ( who where there for nearly 200 years ) and then the "repair" place ( durres ) for ships ...all circa 700BC

yes. the town was a colony, but the surrounding areas had population that was clearly not greek. Even for Epir Herodotus and thucidities refer clearly as barbarians/non greeks.
Thucidities not only names them as such but gives a detailed description of their behavior in war/battle to show how different they were from the greeks.
 
Epidermis-Dyrrhachion or modern Durres was created by Corinthian Greeks after kicking out the Liburnians who used it as a place to repair ships........Corinthians first kicked out the Liburnains of Corfu ( who where there for nearly 200 years ) and then the "repair" place ( durres ) for ships ...all circa 700BC

Like I said illyrians kept pushing the already expanded greeks south over time - they were mostly more northern around 700bc labelled as barbarians from the north. You will find greek temples in south albania just like in italy and turkey
 
What year is this from? Albani tribe doesnt mean anything - its just a small name on the map amongst many others - if you are saying this map means they are below illyrians regionally and unrelated you are wrong as you can see the Taulantii below the "Albani" on the map. Taulantii were one of the most powerful and long lasting illyrian tribes -

"Taulantii were an Illyrian people that lived on the Adriatic coast of southern Illyria (modern Albania). They dominated at various times much of the plain between the rivers Drin and Aous. Their central area was the hinterland of Epidamnos-Dyrrhachion, corresponding to present-day Tirana and the region between the valleys of Mat and Shkumbin.[2] The Taulantii are among the oldest attested Illyrian peoples, who established a powerful kingdom in southern Illyria.[3] They are among the peoples who most marked Illyrian history, and thus found their place in the numerous works of historians in classical antiquity."

No one has said albanians are made up of ALL illyrians, that is nonsense. Albanians likely formed from several illyrian tribes that spoke similar languages - mostly south illyrians and maybe some people like dardanians and ancient macedonians. Geg albanians maybe formed from a mix of slightly different tribes (family clans) to tosk albanians but still same language - maybe geg albanians had more dardani influence

problem here is that this map is 150AD...the Romans already knew who was who ethnically ............they knew who where the Illyrians , they already fought a 4 year long war against them and decimated their race ...............the Taulantii could not have been illyrian ...........are they not once of the 4 tribes who are ethnically Dardanian ?
 
These are are Epirote tribes


German historian

In 1841 the German historian Karl Friedrich Merleker (1803-1872) compiled a list comprised of 36 subtribes of the three main Epirotan tribes he found in the ancient sources:
“All in all in the ancient Epirus I found thirty six small tribes and and four greater: I. Among Chaones bëjnë pjesë 1) Dexaroi (Δεξάροι), 2) Encheleii (Ἐγχελεῖς), 3) Syliones (Συλίονες). II. To Molossians belong: 4) Atintanes (Ατιντάνες), 5) Athamanes (Άθαμάνες), 6) Aphidantes (Άφείδαντες), 7) Genoai (Γενοαῖοι), 8) Donettini (Δονεττῖνοι), 9) Orestae (Όρέσται), 10) Hypaelokhoi (Ὑπαιλχιοι). II. To Thesprotes belong: 11) Aegestians (Αἰγεσταῖοἰ), 12) Amyntes (Άμύνται), 13) Autariates (Αὐταριάται), 14) Elines (Ἔλινοι), 15) Kelaethians (Κέλαιϑοι), 16) Parauai (Παραύαιοι), 17) Prassaebi (Πράσσαιβοι), 18) Tripolissi (Τριπόλισσοι), 19) Chaunes (Χαῦνοι), 20) Cassopaeans (Κασσοπὶοι). IV. Epirotes also are: 21) Amymni (Ἄμυμνοι), 22) Argyrini (Άργύρινοι), 23) Arktanes (Άρκτᾶνες), 24) Pleraei (Πλαραῖοι). V. Other tribes inhabiting in the region of ancient Epirus are: 25) Helopes (Ἕλοπες), 26) Selles (Σέλλες), 27) Dryopes (Δρύοπες), 28) Aethices (Αἴϑικες), 29) Tymphaei (Τυμφαῖοι) , 30) Amphilochi (Ἀμφίλοχοι), 31) Talari (Ταλαρες), 32) Paroraei (Παρωραῖοί), 33) Threstes (Θρέσται), 34) Pelagones (Πελαγόνες), 35) Elimiotes (Έλιμιῶται), 36) Dolopes (Δόλοπες).” . Missing in this list is the tribes of Peukestes (Πευκέστας), in the territory of Chaonians .


...............................................

Dexaroi, a tribe in Chaonia, neighbors of Enchelei. The name may be derived from the Epirote word daksa (δάξα) for sea 27. Stephanus of Byzantium wrote of a subtribe of Chaonians, Dexaroi (Δέξαροι), who resided in neighborhood of Encheleii, at the foot of the mountain Amyron (Αμυρον)
 
Epidermis-Dyrrhachion or modern Durres was created by Corinthian Greeks after kicking out the Liburnians who used it as a place to repair ships........Corinthians first kicked out the Liburnains of Corfu ( who where there for nearly 200 years ) and then the "repair" place ( durres ) for ships ...all circa 700BC

Liburnians, were these the ancient Laberians?
 
Not as fixated as the ancients who met Thracians!
"Indeed, the ancient Greeks were wary of their Thracian neighbours (the gladiator Spartacus amongst them) and were reluctant to rile them because of their red hair, combative nature and willingness to embroil themselves in a good fight. Depictions on Athenian pottery of glorious battles show the Greeks fighting the mythological Thracian King Rhesus with wild red hair and a pointy beard. The earliest known description of the Thracians’ hair colour comes from the Greek poet Xenophanes in 500 BC who claimed:
“Men make their Gods in their own image… those of the Thracians have blue eyes and red hair”.
Indeed, surviving Thracian tombs in Ostrusha Mound, Bulgaria, have mosaic images of red-haired ancestors and are adorned with the word “Rufus”, the Latin word for red-haired."
Maybe Romans had a fetish for redheads - thats why they tried to settle in britain and ended up losing track of their empire!

lol, i admit i laughed at this. :LOL:
 
problem here is that this map is 150AD...the Romans already knew who was who ethnically ............they knew who where the Illyrians , they already fought a 4 year long war against them and decimated their race ...............the Taulantii could not have been illyrian ...........are they not once of the 4 tribes who are ethnically Dardanian ?

Of course Taulantii were illyrian - whether they were one of 4 big "dardani" tribes is impossible to tell, we dont even know for sure if dardani were just another group in the branch of illyrians or different people. Either way they were all given different names by different people from different languages. They are still in that map from 150AD that apparently is epirus - point being Albani were even further north of Taulantii yet still in that Epirus region. That map doesnt mean anything when determining the race of the people

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Glaucias_of_Taulantii

The fact that Taulantii were still mentioned in the 150AD map shows that illyrians werent wiped out and were often deployed by romans - it was the slavic invasion that changed things more
 
Of course Taulantii were illyrian - whether they were one of 4 big "dardani" tribes is impossible to tell, we dont even know for sure if dardani were just another group in the branch of illyrians or different people. Either way they were all given different names by different people from different languages. They are still in that map from 150AD that apparently is epirus - point being Albani were even further north of Taulantii yet still in that Epirus region. That map doesnt mean anything when determining the race of the people
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Glaucias_of_Taulantii
The fact that Taulantii were still mentioned in the 150AD map shows that illyrians werent wiped out and were often deployed by romans - it was the slavic invasion that changed things more

So the Illyrians fought all their way through history just to get invaded by Slavs in the end.
 
So the Illyrians fought all their way through history just to get invaded by Slavs in the end.

Not sure why you are belittling south slavs like that but anyway they were obviously weakened by romans first as were thracians. Also, illyrians were never completely unified - scattered in different regions and stayed in relatively small groups as such suited the terrain. That is why i dont think the "illyria" area was all people of the same race, it was more like land of the free and the strongest roamers survive

There were a lot of big powers in south europe before romans - urnfield, ancient macedonians, hellenes, dorians etc. South europe was rarely peaceful - all the fighting and lack of unity allowed south slavs to take over a few years later.

These are languages not related to south slavic in south europe today = greek, albanian, romanian (though there are similarities). Now, we know romanian has strong latin influence and even the name sounds strange - it is clearly of strong roman influence. Maybe thraco-daco-romans were stronger in preserving their identity than south thracians (bulgaria) who already had their language hellenized prior anyway.

And yes illyrians did get invaded by slavs in the end - except for those from the south and those that moved south but i already mentioned above why it was possible to take over such masses of land.
 
Of course Taulantii were illyrian - whether they were one of 4 big "dardani" tribes is impossible to tell, we dont even know for sure if dardani were just another group in the branch of illyrians or different people. Either way they were all given different names by different people from different languages. They are still in that map from 150AD that apparently is epirus - point being Albani were even further north of Taulantii yet still in that Epirus region. That map doesnt mean anything when determining the race of the people
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Glaucias_of_Taulantii
The fact that Taulantii were still mentioned in the 150AD map shows that illyrians werent wiped out and were often deployed by romans - it was the slavic invasion that changed things more


I never said the illyrians where wiped out ...............after the Great Illyrian revolt which lasted 4 years , 80% of these illyrians who warred against Rome where Dalmatians and Pannonians......150,000 where dispersed to other parts of the roman empire or placed in Roman armies.

The Slavs and Avars and later Goths coming in to this region all mixed with the Illyrians that remained in these areas ...................the areas where not left barren/empty, makes no sense that you are thinking about empty lands ................current slavs , ( bosnians , croats, slovenes ) all have some Illyrian mix from these times
 
Not sure why you are belittling south slavs like that but anyway they were obviously weakened by romans first as were thracians.

Where am i belittling South Slavs?, since they have Slavic identity not Illyrian.

Also, illyrians were never completely unified - scattered in different regions and stayed in relatively small groups as such suited the terrain. That is why i dont think the "illyria" area was all people of the same race, it was more like land of the free and the strongest roamers survive

Ok, most likely this is true to an extend

There were a lot of big powers in south europe before romans - urnfield, ancient macedonians, hellenes, dorians etc.

Dorians were part of the Hellenes why you mention them separately

South europe was rarely peaceful - all the fighting and lack of unity allowed south slavs to take over a few years later.
These are languages not related to south slavic in south europe today = greek, albanian, romanian (though there are similarities). Now, we know romanian has strong latin influence and even the name sounds strange - it is clearly of strong roman influence. Maybe thraco-daco-romans were stronger in preserving their identity than south thracians (bulgaria) who already had their language hellenized prior anyway.
And yes illyrians did get invaded by slavs in the end - except for those from the south and those that moved south but i already mentioned above why it was possible to take over such masses of land.

Ok
 
I never said the illyrians where wiped out ...............after the Great Illyrian revolt which lasted 4 years , 80% of these illyrians who warred against Rome where Dalmatians and Pannonians......150,000 where dispersed to other parts of the roman empire or placed in Roman armies.
The Slavs and Avars and later Goths coming in to this region all mixed with the Illyrians that remained in these areas ...................the areas where not left barren/empty, makes no sense that you are thinking about empty lands ................current slavs , ( bosnians , croats, slovenes ) all have some Illyrian mix from these times

We know they have mixed with the northern illyrians and other groups that lived there by process of haplogroup elimination. We see that their y dna is over 50% south slavic and this makes sense because in order to completely change the language of people (during that time) you usually have to outnumber them as no public schools or huge amount of books existed. All we are missing is ancient dna to confirm who belonged to what
 
Well I would say majority of them belongs to Neolithic farmers considering Y-DNA, in the first place E V-13 ofcourse.
 
Well I would say majority of them belongs to Neolithic farmers considering Y-DNA, in the first place E V-13 ofcourse.

We are not quite sure. The R1B/J2B2 seem IE in nature, and based on the evidence the timeline fits.
V13 is more of an open question since its supposedly much older in Europe. Yet I believe there are other members who can answer this better. Since this clade is too hard for me to analyze.

Point being J2B2 and R1B are around ~50% of Albanian male lineages. And V13 is an open question, but even if it gets answered as farming communities predating IE, the maximum concentration is 25-45% depending on the region.

If you ask me, despite the timeline fitting with farming communities in the Balkans, I believe the fact they were so successful across so many different peoples in the Balkans and elsewhere points to either the fact that they were very advanced in martial technology, or that the farming hypothesis should be questioned. Since most farming communities didn't do well after the IE invasions.

I believe Aspurg is the best person to ask on this, he is very familiar with the clade/and material cultures and might give a better answer.
 
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