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  1. #1
    Regular Member DejaVu's Avatar
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    Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

    Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA?
    No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I believe that is obvius

    Illyros son of Kadmus invte Illyria
    so albania has J2

    aeolian E wich was cut isolated and became another nation is the kossovo E-V13

    the possibilty that GeG means also achaic ->agaig ->geg a+i = e
    (watch acha-menides, aga-memnon, achaic, turkish aga =leader aga-memnon = ruler memnon)

    the genetical connection with peloponese Achaic is probably obvius

    events unite J2 and E-V13 to albanians
    also J2 and E-V13 to Greeks

    the R1a and R1b is the rulers probably R1a Thracian and R1b Celtic

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    I believe that is obvius

    Illyros son of Kadmus invte Illyria
    so albania has J2

    aeolian E wich was cut isolated and became another nation is the kossovo E-V13

    the possibilty that GeG means also achaic ->agaig ->geg a+i = e
    (watch acha-menides, aga-memnon, achaic, turkish aga =leader aga-memnon = ruler memnon)
    I think good roots for tribal name are in general: religion related terms, weapons used, or some legendary ruler....

    possible ruler whose name Geghs carry may be Gyges ruler of Lydia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyges_of_Lydia

    I have idea that stories of Gyges may be about E-V13 taking over power of Lydia from previous I2a2 ruling caste ...as Gyges was shepard unrelated to royal bloodlines and did overthrow the previous king...that might even explain attacks of I2a2 Cimmerians on country of Gyges.... note that Gyges asked for help from Egypt and Assyrians...which may be about related E haplogroup people....






    this would make I2a2 proto-Serbs and E-V13 Albanian Geghs sworn enemies long time in past, and perhaps even explain why there is almost no I2a2 in Geghs while it is present in all other Balkan people...

    Tosks might origin from subjugated I2a2 and J2b of Lydia, who mixed with E-V13 and accepted their language and culture.... their tribal name might be of same origin as for Etruscans/Tuscans who are known to have settled Italy from Lydia.....

    movement of Tosks from Lydia to Balkan happened at unknown time, but might be related with the hole in spread of J2b in Lydia.... when they left Lydia, the vacated space was settled by people of some other haplogroups which made a hole in spread of J2b in Asia minor and hotspot of it in south Albania...


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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Tosks might origin from subjugated I2a2 and J2b of Lydia, who mixed with E-V13 and accepted their language and culture.... their tribal name might be of same origin as for Etruscans/Tuscans who are known to have settled Italy from Lydia.....
    There is not a connection between Toskë and Tuscans.

    The names Tuscany, Tuscans, Etruscans derive form Latin word tuscus, (probably from TURS, cfr Greek Tyrsēnoi/Tyrrēnoi). Tuscus is not an Etruscan word, and Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, not Tusci.

    The name Tosk, (Albanian toskë), was borrowed from Venetian tosko or tosco that probably means "rough, crude", literally "tuscan". "Tosco" in Old Tuscan dialect means "poison", "poisonous" (Cfr. Dante, Non pomi v' eran, ma stecchi con tosco. Dante Inf XIII). Venetian and Tuscan both derive from Vulgar Latin.

    As we know, Venetian Albania was the possessions of the Venetian Republic from 1420 to 1797 in northern Albania and Montenegro. Albanian language has many borrowings from Venetian. Never forget that Albanian language has borrowed so many words during the course of its history from Latin, Greek, Turkish, Italian (Tuscan), Venetian... Even from English.


    "Albanian has borrowed more words than any other European language."

    Source: Arion Kulla, The Albanian Linguistic Journey from Ancient Illyricum to EU, 2010, Linköping University Electronic Press, Sweden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    There is not a connection between Toskë and Tuscans.
    The names Tuscany, Tuscans, Etruscans derive form Latin word tuscus, (probably from TURS, cfr Greek Tyrsēnoi/Tyrrēnoi). Tuscus is not an Etruscan word, and Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, not Tusci.
    The name Tosk, (Albanian toskë), was borrowed from Venetian tosko or tosco that probably means "rough, crude", literally "tuscan". "Tosco" in Old Tuscan dialect means "poison", "poisonous" (Cfr. Dante, Non pomi v' eran, ma stecchi con tosco. Dante Inf XIII). Venetian and Tuscan both derive from Vulgar Latin.
    As we know, Venetian Albania was the possessions of the Venetian Republic from 1420 to 1797 in northern Albania and Montenegro. Albanian language has many borrowings from Venetian. Never forget that Albanian language has borrowed so many words during the course of its history from Latin, Greek, Turkish, Italian (Tuscan), Venetian... Even from English.
    "Albanian has borrowed more words than any other European language."
    Source: Arion Kulla, The Albanian Linguistic Journey from Ancient Illyricum to EU, 2010, Linköping University Electronic Press, Sweden.
    hm, good point...

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    I was wondering, I am tested positive as E1b1b1a1b V-13. I am Italian-Canadian of southern Italian Heritage specifically Matera,Italy. (I know my ancient ancestry is North African E1b1b1) but more recently would it be a possibility that for eg. 600-800 years ago my great-great,great,great,great,great grandfather might of been an immigrant from Albania or Greece or Turkey and immigrated to southern Italy. what are the percentages of what type of group of people I might of descended from. Speaking in a range of 400 to 1000 years ago. In my family some people say that we might of been Jews from Greece or somewhere in southeastern Mediterranean that moved to Italy for what ever reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matera View Post
    I was wondering, I am tested positive as E1b1b1a1b V-13. I am Italian-Canadian of southern Italian Heritage specifically Matera,Italy. (I know my ancient ancestry is North African E1b1b1) but more recently would it be a possibility that for eg. 600-800 years ago my great-great,great,great,great,great grandfather might of been an immigrant from Albania or Greece or Turkey and immigrated to southern Italy. what are the percentages of what type of group of people I might of descended from. Speaking in a range of 400 to 1000 years ago. In my family some people say that we might of been Jews from Greece or somewhere in southeastern Mediterranean that moved to Italy for what ever reason.
    Some possible explanations:

    -Around 1500 AD there was a big influx of albanians into southern-italy to escape the ottoman occupation. They still have albanian speaking villages there.

    -it might be albanian immigrants or soldiers from roman times or earlier.

    -it might be ancient greek from magna grecia in southern italy.

    -or you're just italian, E v-13 has probably been in italy since the stone-age.

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    If it wasnt for us holding back the ottoman empire 1400-1500 (the peak of ottoman empire) today u would have been speaking turkish in the middle of Paris
    Source : Etnon ft Lyrical Son nd DJ Blunt - ALBANIA , music video, youtube

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    I am not sure?

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    A lot of linguistic and cultural research support it to be Illyrian, somewhere north of the Jireck line in West / Central Balkans. There have been made some strong arguments against Thracian/Dacian origin by several historians. Albanian language does not match Thracian



    The strongest evidence, however, comes not from the meaning of the proper names (which is always open to doubt) but from their structure. Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean fortress. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Besi' . The structure here is the same as in many European languages:
    thus the 'town of peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say Qytet i Pjetrit, not Pjeterqytet. If 'para' were the Albanian for 'ford, then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve' ; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa' , but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian.

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    Well I would say majority of them belongs to Neolithic farmers considering Y-DNA, in the first place E V-13 ofcourse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Michael View Post
    Well I would say majority of them belongs to Neolithic farmers considering Y-DNA, in the first place E V-13 ofcourse.
    We are not quite sure. The R1B/J2B2 seem IE in nature, and based on the evidence the timeline fits.
    V13 is more of an open question since its supposedly much older in Europe. Yet I believe there are other members who can answer this better. Since this clade is too hard for me to analyze.

    Point being J2B2 and R1B are around ~50% of Albanian male lineages. And V13 is an open question, but even if it gets answered as farming communities predating IE, the maximum concentration is 25-45% depending on the region.

    If you ask me, despite the timeline fitting with farming communities in the Balkans, I believe the fact they were so successful across so many different peoples in the Balkans and elsewhere points to either the fact that they were very advanced in martial technology, or that the farming hypothesis should be questioned. Since most farming communities didn't do well after the IE invasions.

    I believe Aspurg is the best person to ask on this, he is very familiar with the clade/and material cultures and might give a better answer.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 26-04-21 at 00:38. Reason: Typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    I think good roots for tribal name are in general: religion related terms, weapons used, or some legendary ruler....

    possible ruler whose name Geghs carry may be Gyges ruler of Lydia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyges_of_Lydia

    I have idea that stories of Gyges may be about E-V13 taking over power of Lydia from previous I2a2 ruling caste ...as Gyges was shepard unrelated to royal bloodlines and did overthrow the previous king...that might even explain attacks of I2a2 Cimmerians on country of Gyges.... note that Gyges asked for help from Egypt and Assyrians...which may be about related E haplogroup people....






    this would make I2a2 proto-Serbs and E-V13 Albanian Geghs sworn enemies long time in past, and perhaps even explain why there is almost no I2a2 in Geghs while it is present in all other Balkan people...

    Tosks might origin from subjugated I2a2 and J2b of Lydia, who mixed with E-V13 and accepted their language and culture.... their tribal name might be of same origin as for Etruscans/Tuscans who are known to have settled Italy from Lydia.....

    movement of Tosks from Lydia to Balkan happened at unknown time, but might be related with the hole in spread of J2b in Lydia.... when they left Lydia, the vacated space was settled by people of some other haplogroups which made a hole in spread of J2b in Asia minor and hotspot of it in south Albania...

    1: E-V13 taking over power of Lydia from previous I2a2 ruling caste? ---- based on DNA facts I2b2 didnt came before E-V13 in that region, E-V13 is 10,000 years and I2b2 is only 6,000 years...http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

    In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.
    It appeared identical at the seven markers tested to five Albanian, two Bosnian, one Greek, one Italian, one Sicilian, two Corsican, and two Provence French samples and are thus placed on the same node of the E1b1b1a1b-V13 network as eastern, central, and western Mediterranean haplotypes (Fig. S1).

    Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
    Cruciani et al. (2007)

    This would claim that E-V13 is not originated from Egypt nor even north Africa as the percentage of E-V13 in those regions is minimal. This also claims that E-V13 is 10,000 years way before the Egypt era. Now if we are about to go even more backwards then E-V13 is originated from E1b1b , however because E1b1b is 42,000 years it would be almost impossible to find what race or their appearance were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    1: E-V13 taking over power of Lydia from previous I2a2 ruling caste? ---- based on DNA facts I2b2 didnt came before E-V13 in that region, E-V13 is 10,000 years and I2b2 is only 6,000 years.
    As I've already told you. Who is older, doesn't prove a thing is this kind of conversation.

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    These old shots in the dark in the post I quote below have been all debunked.
    Nice try idiot, but you were damn wrong.

    This is great to observe who is biased against Albanians, just by checking old posts like this one, and I'm sure they haven't changed their minds yet, despite all genetic proof presented before them.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    I think good roots for tribal name are in general: religion related terms, weapons used, or some legendary ruler....

    possible ruler whose name Geghs carry may be Gyges ruler of Lydia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyges_of_Lydia

    I have idea that stories of Gyges may be about E-V13 taking over power of Lydia from previous I2a2 ruling caste ...as Gyges was shepard unrelated to royal bloodlines and did overthrow the previous king...that might even explain attacks of I2a2 Cimmerians on country of Gyges.... note that Gyges asked for help from Egypt and Assyrians...which may be about related E haplogroup people....






    this would make I2a2 proto-Serbs and E-V13 Albanian Geghs sworn enemies long time in past, and perhaps even explain why there is almost no I2a2 in Geghs while it is present in all other Balkan people...

    Tosks might origin from subjugated I2a2 and J2b of Lydia, who mixed with E-V13 and accepted their language and culture.... their tribal name might be of same origin as for Etruscans/Tuscans who are known to have settled Italy from Lydia.....

    movement of Tosks from Lydia to Balkan happened at unknown time, but might be related with the hole in spread of J2b in Lydia.... when they left Lydia, the vacated space was settled by people of some other haplogroups which made a hole in spread of J2b in Asia minor and hotspot of it in south Albania...


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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    I believe that is obvius

    Illyros son of Kadmus invte Illyria
    so albania has J2

    aeolian E wich was cut isolated and became another nation is the kossovo E-V13

    the possibilty that GeG means also achaic ->agaig ->geg a+i = e
    (watch acha-menides, aga-memnon, achaic, turkish aga =leader aga-memnon = ruler memnon)

    the genetical connection with peloponese Achaic is probably obvius

    events unite J2 and E-V13 to albanians
    also J2 and E-V13 to Greeks

    the R1a and R1b is the rulers probably R1a Thracian and R1b Celtic


    I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that Geg meansachaic. Geg name is not that old. On the other side it make more sense to believethat E-V13 is high in Peloponnesus due to Albanian migration there after 1,000AD.


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    Albania
    I1 2%
    I2a 12%
    I2b 1,5%
    R1a 9%
    R1b 16%
    G2a 1,5%
    J2 19,5%
    J1 2%
    E1b1b 27,5%
    T 1%

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    you still answer the 'are and not the 'were'

    find the 'were'

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    real question about Albanians is their relation with Dardanians and Illyrians...

    and while I am prone to believe that there is relation between Albaninans and Dardanians.....possibility for relation of Albanians to Illyrians is still kind of mistery....

    also real extent of Illyrians is mystery.... especially condsidering that Slavs were by Jordanes described as race of Veneti thus Venetic people, and that Pannoni tribes (one of them that inhabited Plitvice lakes complex was carrying clearly Slavic tribal name Oseriates which is translatable as 'lake people') were called Illyrian tribes only based on fact that they lived in Roman province of Illyria....

    basically, key question is whether Illyrians were E-V13 dominant or I2a2 dominant....

    arguments for E-V13:
    1) high variation in Dalmatia....
    2) Steven Byrd claims that E-V13 in Britain is due to Roman soldiers from Balkan (I do not really believe this but it does make some sense). But there is no I2a2-Dinaric in Britain....

    arguments for I2a2:
    1) in Dalmatia is high frequency of I2a2,
    2) low frequency of E-V13,
    3) there is I2a2 spread along Adriatic in Italy.... and Illyrians settlement there are recorded in history while there were no massive Slavic settlements there...
    4)Illyrians are described as tall people, with their tribes known just for long wars among themselves....
    Albanians are in average shorter mediteranean people who never had real wars between themselves...
    while south Slavs are in average taller people, and have history of wars among their tribes....

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    Question:
    Gheg and Tosk speakers same people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    Question:
    Gheg and Tosk speakers same people?
    now they are obviously, but originally I think they were not ...
    genetic is very different, and from what I heard dialects are quite different...

    Ghegs could be related to Dardanians
    Tosks could be albanized Greek Epirot-Slavic mix....with Albanization taking place with spread of Albanians in times of collapse of Byzantine empire.... this scenario would explain considerable J2b, I2a2 and R1a part.... which is almost completely lacking in Ghegs


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

    alternativelly, Tosks may be related to Illyrians, but they are a bit too south for that.... and many toponyms there are Slavic in origin....

    third variant is idea about Gyges as eponym forefather of Ghegs, and that Tosks origin from Albanized Lydians while Gheghs are pure Albanians....

    anyway, it is hard for me to guess what is right there...
    perhaps someone with better knowledge of Greek historical sources could figure this out better....

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    copied from topic about Macedonians...
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...=26187&page=20

    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    Origin of Albanians is twofold:
    Quote:
    Tosks are mostly albanized Epirots... dominant haplogroup J
    Geghs probably origin from Dardanians... dominant haplogroup E-V13
    These are bullshit. Epirots were barbarians as ancient authors told us. If we wanna know what was their language we must look at todays epirots or Tosks.

    Tha assimilation occur in the contrary direction, because thay who have the state they make assimilation, and they who have not state they bacome assimilated.

    Sot because Greeks, had the state (Byzantium), they assimilated all peoples of Anatolia, even the Jews etc.

    But Albanians could not assimilate anybody, because they had not state, specially not in th south, until the late medieval (Ghin Bue Spata).

    How the Epirots became Albanized?? Maybe some Gheg children armed with sibynas came in south and said to them, "Hey Epirots, come speak Albanian, we kill you", and the epirots were frightened, and begaun to speak albanian. hahha
    Epirus was whole central and south Albania




    whole point is that Albanisation of Epirotes happened with Byzantium becoming weak...in 14th century...Arbanians spread to Epirus from mountains
    as Byzantium was weak... look at years... they coincide with spread of Serbian state towards south...



    Tosks have significant I2a2 and J2, but Arbereshe who origin from Albanians who settled Italy upon arrival of Ottomans do not have much of those haplogroups... which indicates that in 15th century assimilation is still not complete and I2a2 and J2 people in central and south Albania are not counting themselves as Albanians...

    Haplogroup I-M170 is the most common Balkan haplogroup (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and the second most frequent Arbereshe clade. Nevertheless, analysis of its network reveals unexpected results: most of the Arbereshe I-M170 haplotypes are not included in the Balkan cluster[/B] (Figure 3), but are located in the long branches containing mainly Italian chromosomes. Comparisons with literature data (Semino et al. 2000; Barac et al. 2003, Rootsi et al. 2004) show that the core haplotype of the Balkan cluster (16-14-15-13-31-24-11-11-13; locus order as above) is consistent with the almost Balkan exclusive I2a (formerly I1b) clade. The proposed interpretation of the Arbereshe as a proxy of the founder Albanian population leads us to hypothesize that the I2a clade was less common in the southern Balkans 500 years ago than nowadays. The very tight shape of the I2a cluster in the network suggests a very recent expansion of this haplogroup in the southern Balkans. Furthermore, I2a is still rare in
    mountain populations such as the Albanians of Kosovo (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and in a randomly selected Arbereshe sample from Rootsi et al. (2004).
    This is an interesting finding in the light of recent evidence for selection in Y-haplogroup I.

    The situation with J2 is also quite interesting as this is rarer in Arbereshe (3%) than Albanians (17%):
    The scarcity of J2 chromosomes in the Arbereshe sample (1/40) is very difficult to explain, given that they are very common in both the Italian peninsula and the southern Balkans.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07...eshe-from.html

    this is clear genetic proof that I2a2 and J2b people among Tosks are albanized Epirotes

    So, epirots maybe did'nt call themselves illyrian, we don't know about thet, but it is proved that Epir and Illyria and Macedonia, as ancient authors said, have the same race, same language and same customs.
    I do not believe this... please quote source...

    if it is correct, than it means that Illyrians are probably not related to Albanians, but are I2a2 or J2b people...
    which leaves Dardanians as key and only cultural ancestor of Arbanians (now called Albanians)

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    originally I think they were not ...
    genetic is very different, and from what I heard dialects are quite different...

    Tosks could be albanized Greek Epirot-Slavic mix....with Albanization taking place with spread of Albanians in times of collapse of Byzantine empire.
    Genetics seems to confirm just that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    real question about Albanians is their relation with Dardanians and Illyrians...

    and while I am prone to believe that there is relation between Albaninans and Dardanians.....possibility for relation of Albanians to Illyrians is still kind of mistery....

    also real extent of Illyrians is mystery.... especially condsidering that Slavs were by Jordanes described as race of Veneti thus Venetic people, and that Pannoni tribes (one of them that inhabited Plitvice lakes complex was carrying clearly Slavic tribal name Oseriates which is translatable as 'lake people') were called Illyrian tribes only based on fact that they lived in Roman province of Illyria....

    basically, key question is whether Illyrians were E-V13 dominant or I2a2 dominant....

    arguments for E-V13:
    1) high variation in Dalmatia....
    2) Steven Byrd claims that E-V13 in Britain is due to Roman soldiers from Balkan (I do not really believe this but it does make some sense). But there is no I2a2-Dinaric in Britain....

    arguments for I2a2:
    1) in Dalmatia is high frequency of I2a2,
    2) low frequency of E-V13,
    3) there is I2a2 spread along Adriatic in Italy.... and Illyrians settlement there are recorded in history while there were no massive Slavic settlements there...
    4)Illyrians are described as tall people, with their tribes known just for long wars among themselves....
    Albanians are in average shorter mediteranean people who never had real wars between themselves...
    while south Slavs are in average taller people, and have history of wars among their tribes....
    based on what i hear form you, i don't think you know that much of Albanians. this mainly about the Albanians fighting with each other, unfortunately the blood feud between two big families which before were tribes is still present in mountainous regions of Albania, my father's grandfather was killed only because he belonged to the GASHI tribe (so i also belong to the same tribe) from a guy of KELMENDI tribe. this is precisely the reason why Albanians remain divided today, because they were natural inhibitors of the region and did not think of invasion and grouping and state and politization until empires started invading our natural lands, then it was too late, as europe decided to split natural Albanian inhibited lands BTW the new comers-our neighbors, i guess besides greece

  25. #25
    Forced to be australian
    Join Date
    04-06-13
    Location
    from shkodra working in australia
    Posts
    285

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    e1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    m78

    Ethnic group
    albanian
    Country: Australia



    i dont want to insult but i think i know why he did so to your fathers grandfather,im from kelmendi an im not allowed to marry a woman from the tribe of gashi,,all the tribes of albania all fought eachother over lands crops etc,,all this happens still..i dont know if gashi tribe follows the kanuni but just a simple insult to a albanian from tribes whom follow the kanuni can result in death,the reason why i cant marry from gashi tribe is because many albanians from gashi tribe worked for the ottomans an more i will stop their because i dont want to insult you in anyway.the kelmendi an hoti are very strict we only mix from same tribe to preserve the blood.

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