Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[Aspurg]

Also, I don't know if you noticed, but the one Albanian sample with the relatively uncommon values that you were talking about earlier was confirmed Y33200, so it is not an earlier split, unless TMRCA would change taking him into consideration. So with these new results, what's your opinion on the Y33200 and BY611 origins?

Celibashi is Y33200+? Well that's a surprise, it means Z2705 mutated on dys393 and then this clade mutated back on a slow STR. I was looking at one Ghegh from Arberesh study and thought he might be perhaps positive to Y33200, because he had dys393=13 + dys392=11. That's a big problem for Balkan BY611, because though widespread it remains young.

Someone looking at that Russian/Ukrainian might even suggest a Bulgar expansion. Seriously I don't think that is possible. How Balkan is BY611 to begin with?
Y10789 Italy/Spain
Y23374* YF06082 an American, but where is he from? His specific STR value seems to be dys390=23
His YFiler
12 23 14 11 11-11 12 13 13 29 15 15 18 12 15 12 ??

And these are his closest YFiler matches from YHRD, note because he has dys393=12, it's less likely to confuse him with some L51 who have 385=11-11, he also has 448=18 which is unusual.
12 23 14 11 11-11 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 11 15 12 23 Catalonia, Spain [Spanish] 1 match of 1415
12 23 14 11 11-11 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 11 15 12 23 Alicante, Spain [Spanish] 1 match of 216

So his closest matches are from... once again it's Spain, these have dys393=12, dys385=11-11 and dys390=23.

What I find very interesting here is that these haplotypes are from:
Alicante, Valencia, Spain
Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain

While the Spanish R-Y30192>Y32843, (TMRCA 3200 with an American R-Y23373*) are from
Alicante, Valencia, Spain
Girona near Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain

BY611 might even be Celtic, if all these with TMRCA of 2600 remain in the West. By logic it should be paleo-Balkan but that might be partially dependent on finding something older than Y33200.

Also one has to wonder is Balkan Z2705* ever going to be found? There are many Serbs with dys549=14, and I noticed this Portuguese Z2705* had it and shared it with a Ukrainian guy, so basically I was possibly correct in suggesting a link between them based on dys549 and some other STR's as Ukrainian is also Z2705*. I suggested one BY611 there test for Y33200 but he turned out Y33200+, it didn't work, even though there might be a connection between Ukrainian and Portuguese (if they form some clade of their own) based on dys549.

I was looking for some data on Romanians, and I remember you mentioned a you found some haplotypes. Could you give me a source please?

These 2 from Dolj area (with identical haplotypes on 19 STR's) are from the known Basarab study (with dys385 from Roma study) and Wallachian dys392=11 is from 'Population data for Y-chromosome haplotypes defined by 17 STRs in South-East Romania.', STR's are only available on YHRD.

Interestingly all 3 BY611 from Romania are with this dys392=11 haplotype. There is on Yfull one from Teleorman, has anybody seen his STR's, if dys392=11 are too Y33200+ then he might have this haplotype considering the lack of "standard" Y33200's there.

 

[eastara]

Celibashi is Y33200+? Well that's a surprise, it means Z2705 mutated on dys393 and then this clade mutated back on a slow STR. I was looking at one Ghegh from Arberesh study and thought he might be perhaps positive to Y33200, because he had dys393=13 + dys392=11. That's a big problem for Balkan BY611, because though widespread it remains young.

Someone looking at that Russian/Ukrainian might even suggest a Bulgar expansion. Seriously I don't think that is possible. How Balkan is BY611 to begin with?
BY611 might even be Celtic, if all these with TMRCA of 2600 remain in the West. By logic it should be paleo-Balkan but that might be partially dependent on finding something older than Y33200.

Also one has to wonder is Balkan Z2705* ever going to be found? There are many Serbs with dys549=14, and I noticed this Portuguese Z2705* had it and shared it with a Ukrainian guy, so basically I was possibly correct in suggesting a link between them based on dys549 and some other STR's as Ukrainian is also Z2705*. I suggested one BY611 there test for Y33200 but he turned out Y33200+, it didn't work, even though there might be a connection between Ukrainian and Portuguese (if they form some clade of their own) based on dys549.

These 2 from Dolj area (with identical haplotypes on 19 STR's) are from the known Basarab study (with dys385 from Roma study) and Wallachian dys392=11 is from 'Population data for Y-chromosome haplotypes defined by 17 STRs in South-East Romania.', STR's are only available on YHRD.

Interestingly all 3 BY611 from Romania are with this dys392=11 haplotype. There is on Yfull one from Teleorman, has anybody seen his STR's, if dys392=11 are too Y33200+ then he might have this haplotype considering the lack of "standard" Y33200's there.

Not sure if followed well, but 301843 Tutunci, Russian Federation is actually with Bulgarian origin. He is from the population exchange between Russia and Turkey when Bulgarians, Gagauze and even Albanians were resettled in Bessarabia, Southern Ukraine and Crimea. During WW2 the Bulgarians from Crimea and Ukraine were once again repatriated by Stalin to Siberia and Kazahstan. Some returned after that, but Tutunci seems to remain in Siberia.
Also just recently the Bulgarian 739612 with 392=11 was proven BY611/PH544+

 

[Vlad82]

Also, I don't know if you noticed, but the one Albanian sample with the relatively uncommon values that you were talking about earlier was confirmed Y33200, so it is not an earlier split, unless TMRCA would change taking him into consideration. So with these new results, what's your opinion on the Y33200 and BY611 origins?

I was looking for some data on Romanians, and I remember you mentioned a you found some haplotypes. Could you give me a source please?

Kit Number	Paternal Ancestor Name	Country	Haplogroup	DYS393	DYS390	DYS19	DYS391	DYS385	DYS426	DYS388	DYS439	DYS389i	DYS392	DYS389ii	DYS458	DYS459	DYS455	DYS454	DYS447	DYS437	DYS448	DYS449	DYS464	DYS460	Y-GATA-H4	YCAII	DYS456	DYS607	DYS576	DYS570	CDY	DYS442	DYS438	DYS531	DYS578	DYF395S1	DYS590	DYS537	DYS641	DYS472	DYF406S1	DYS511	DYS425	DYS413	DYS557	DYS594	DYS436	DYS490	DYS534	DYS450	DYS444	DYS481	DYS520	DYS446	DYS617	DYS568	DYS487	DYS572	DYS640	DYS492	DYS565	DYS710	DYS485	DYS632	DYS495	DYS540	DYS714	DYS716	DYS717	DYS505	DYS556	DYS549	DYS589	DYS522	DYS494	DYS533	DYS636	DYS575	DYS638	DYS462	DYS452	DYS445	Y-GATA-A10	DYS463	DYS441	Y-GGAAT-1B07	DYS525	DYS712	DYS593	DYS650	DYS532	DYS715	DYS504	DYS513	DYS561	DYS552	DYS726	DYS635	DYS587	DYS643	DYS497	DYS510	DYS434	DYS461	DYS435
Ysearch SXRNE	Anghel	Romania	R1b	12	24	14	11	11-11	12	12	12	13	11	29	15	8-9	11	11	25	15	19	30	14-16-17-17	12	11	19-23	14					12	12																		12			15																										11	30	12	12	24	14	10												23						11
RO80 OT 1		Romania	R-L23	12	24	14	11	11-11			12	13	11	29	15					15	19				11		16						12																																																																	23
RU356		Romania	R-L23	12	24	14	12	11-11	12	12	12	13	11	29	15					15	19				12		16						12																																																																	23
RU357		Romania		12	24	14	12	11-11	12	12	12	13	11	29	15					15	19				12		16						12																																																																	23

I do not know location of the first one, but rest of them are from Wallachia.
If you need names of studies and all Romanian haplotypes I can send it to you.

All 4 haplotypes have dys393=12 and dys392=11
In terms of the older subclades, dys392=11 does not mean anything, all other subclades and rest of BY611 have dys392=13 which is also a modal for R1b I think. So mutation dys392=13 -->11 must have happened much recent in time.
When some individuals share the same mutation that diverges from the modal for their haplogroup it means that they might have a more recent shared common ancestor(s) among them then they have with other people from the same hg who do not have the mutation.
Of course, there is a possibility that the same mutation happened twice or more time independently.
The best way to find out how long ago their common ancestor lived are WGS or Big Y tests, but you can collect all haplotypes and try some predictors based on str markers. I am not sure if it is very precise.

Older branches of BY611 have dys393=12 so it might be a sign of an older branch, also can be a backward mutation from 13 -->12 because in Albania haplotypes with dys393=13 and dys392=11 have been found.
Haplotypes with dys393=12 are rare in Balkan but they exist in Serbia, Albania, Croatia maybe other countries, too.
One from Serbia was included in the Pille Hallast study where PH544 (equivalent to R-Z2705) was discovered.

 

[Ownstyler]

I do not know location of the first one, but rest of them are from Wallachia.
If you need names of studies and all Romanian haplotypes I can send it to you.

Thank you!

I don't need the names. I was actually looking to compare data from the region of Alba with the other regions in Romania. Do you have any information on that? Or maybe Transyavania vs the rest, but Y-DNA instead of the mtDNA that is usually available.

Also just recently the Bulgarian 739612 with 392=11 was proven BY611/PH544+

Do you know if he was tested for anything downstream of that? Y33200?

I would say that R1b colleagues of Dinara and Cetina were quite different, P312's for the first and Z2103's for the second, especially for example KMS67 (there are some Croatian haplotypes who look like KMS67). So in short Vucedol (whose offshoot is Cetina) was likely proto-proto-Greek, as was the opinion of some archaeologists.

Are you distinguishing Illyrians from Greeks just because these two subclades split early? You are accepting two different haplogroups in Illyrians, so why not two different subclades? I think it's very possible that Illyrians and Greeks shared some R1b.

 

[Vlad82]

Thank you!

I don't need the names. I was actually looking to compare data from the region of Alba with the other regions in Romania. Do you have any information on that? Or maybe Transyavania vs the rest, but Y-DNA instead of the mtDNA that is usually available.



Do you know if he was tested for anything downstream of that? Y33200?


.

You are welcome!
On Ysearch and FTDna I was looking for I-CTS10228 haplotypes. Results from Romania are pretty rare, it is the same for other haplogroups. A bit sad that we do not have many people tested in the biggest country in SE Europe. Even their FTDna project is full of people with non-romanian paternal origins.
Most of the data coming from scientific studies, but it is not enough as well.
You can find researches on the following links:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041803
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0053731
https://www.researchgate.net/public...solated_population_from_North-Western_Romania
Wallachia https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1acnhbgy71SWF9LbFNTc1hqWFE/view?ts=59e71c3f&pli=1

Haplotypes from "Y-Chromosome Analysis in Individuals Bearing the Basarab Name of the First Dynasty of Wallachian Kings" have additional markers in the study https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015201#abstract


I have it somewhat better organized in word and excel files.

Bulgarian DYS393=12 DYS392=11 is only confirmed PH544+ and have not tested further as I know.

 

[Aspurg]

Not sure if followed well, but 301843 Tutunci, Russian Federation is actually with Bulgarian origin. He is from the population exchange between Russia and Turkey when Bulgarians, Gagauze and even Albanians were resettled in Bessarabia, Southern Ukraine and Crimea. During WW2 the Bulgarians from Crimea and Ukraine were once again repatriated by Stalin to Siberia and Kazahstan. Some returned after that, but Tutunci seems to remain in Siberia.
Also just recently the Bulgarian 739612 with 392=11 was proven BY611/PH544+

We mentioned him earlier here. Well that is very significant if he has Balkan origin because he would be the first Z2705*. And as Bulgarian he would add to diversity of BY611 there.
Yes I noticed 739612 from Bulgarian forum. One Serb was tested already as Z2705+, and it seems this Albanian 392=11 as Y33200+. I guess this Romanian from Yfull also has 392=11.

Also to add there is a sample of 97 Bulgarians from "Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma" study which has 8 L23+, including 2 BY611's

BM066

Bulgaria

BUG

General population

13

23

14

11

11

11

12

12

13

13

13

29

15

15

20

11

15

12

23

R-L23

BM098

Bulgaria

BUG

General population

13

24

14

11

11

11

12

12

12

14

14

28

16

15

19

11

15

12

23

R-L23

Actually I just noticed this BM066 has dys390=23!That value is only shared by this American Y23373* (Z2705-), but he has 393=13. 448=20, maybe Y33200-.
Second Bulgarian from this study has dys392=14 + dys389=14-14 (28). For example L277 has as modal dys392=14, but their modal on dys389 is 13-15. There is one Bulgarian L277 N81217 but he has dys385=10-15 and no relation to this one, ofc this one has importantly 11-11. Plus 393=13, no way he is anything other than BY611. A good candidate for Y33200-.


On Albanian project I know there is one dys393=12, and ofc they must have suspected he was Y33200- but he turned out Y33200+, obviously a back mutation. When the number of haplotypes is great as it is the case with BY611, probability for unusual mutations increases..

Thank you!
Are you distinguishing Illyrians from Greeks just because these two subclades split early? You are accepting two different haplogroups in Illyrians, so why not two different subclades? I think it's very possible that Illyrians and Greeks shared some R1b.

I talk about the original proto-community in which certain language might have developed. For Greek those were likely older clades of Z2103, especially the likes of KMS67, knowing that from a large sample rafc once posted significant percentage of Greek Z2103+ was CTS7822- (22.5 % of Greek R1b), and obviously few Greeks have been SNP tested but KMS67 has already been found and looking at STR values from studies there are plenty of others. Of course few are L277 etc..
I have seen among Greeks also sings that Y5592 are going to be found, and that Vucedol sample was Y5592*.
Of course R1b's were joined by some other haplogroups and clades early on, later even more so, but I'm talking about the ultimate "originators" of a language.


Such early splits have already been proven to be of great relevance in the case of U106 (proto-Germanic), U152 (Italic, Celtic etc.) etc.


I do not believe one can speak of any "Illyrians" before the late Bronze age. It was then when first clearly identifiable Illyrian cultures were formed, from which descended Illyrian tribes from antiquity. Only after the arrival of Urnfield elements one can speak of the beginnings of proper Illyrian identity. Prior to that various elements that would later make up Illyrians had only limited contacts or no relation whatsoever.
For Slavs for example this date is much, much younger.

On Ysearch and FTDna I was looking for I-CTS10228 haplotypes. Results from Romania are pretty rare, it is the same for other haplogroups. A bit sad that we do not have many people tested in the biggest country in SE Europe. Even their FTDna project is full of people with non-romanian paternal origins.

Interesting to see results of this Romanian. I bet he is YF08832 from YFull considering few people have been tested there (I know of only about 100 ethnic Romanians which includes 9 Moldovans), also that in Romania one only finds these haplotypes and finally that Albanian dys392=11 is apparently Y33200+.

 

[Trojet]

We mentioned him earlier here. Well that is very significant if he has Balkan origin because he would be the first Z2705*. And as Bulgarian he would add to diversity of BY611 there.
Yes I noticed 739612 from Bulgarian forum. One Serb was tested already as Z2705+, and it seems this Albanian 392=11 as Y33200+. I guess this Romanian from Yfull also has 392=11.

I guess you guys still have trouble interpreting phylogenetic trees YF13874 is is not placed under R-Z2705* at YFull, which would mean negative for downstream Y33200. His placement right underneath R-Z2705, and not an actual R-Z2705*, means he is either forming a new subclade with YF06331 PRT, or he has no call for downstream Y33200. I would guess the latter is the likeliest scenario, because as I explained at Foleja, Y33200 is not well read by the BigY, so some will have no call (unknown status). It's possible he is indeed Y33200- as he has DYS549=14 like YF06082 and YF06331 like you pointed out, but no way to know based on his current placement at YFull. Anyways, he should probably check Y33200 at YSEQ, as he appears to have a no call on his BigY.

Also to add there is a sample of 97 Bulgarians from "Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma" study which has 8 L23+, including 2 BY611's

BM066

Bulgaria

BUG

General population

13

23

14

11

11

11

12

12

13

13

13

29

15

15

20

11

15

12

23

R-L23

BM098

Bulgaria

BUG

General population

13

24

14

11

11

11

12

12

12

14

14

28

16

15

19

11

15

12

23

R-L23

Actually I just noticed this BM066 has dys390=23!That value is only shared by this American Y23373* (Z2705-), but he has 393=13. 448=20, maybe Y33200-.
Second Bulgarian from this study has dys392=14 + dys389=14-14 (28). For example L277 has as modal dys392=14, but their modal on dys389 is 13-15. There is one Bulgarian L277 N81217 but he has dys385=10-15 and no relation to this one, ofc this one has importantly 11-11. Plus 393=13, no way he is anything other than BY611. A good candidate for Y33200-.

Since the first sample has DYS393=13 (instead of 12), it's highly unlikely he would be Y23373* like the American (YF06082). IMO, he is most probably Z2705+ and Y33200+.
The second sample could possibly be Z2705* or be negative some SNPs at that level. This is of course assuming he is even BY611+ and not some L51.

Actually, according to FTDNA, there should already be a split in the Z2705 subclade in the Balkans. A person with Greek sounding surname, should be negative for at least Y32147 and Y33199 which are currently at YFull's Z2705 level. It would be nice if this person uploads to YFull and this split is confirmed, but it appears he has been unresponsive. We don't know his STRs either, as it seems he hasn't joined any FTDNA projects. Of course, we thought DYS393=12 & DYS392=11 could represent this split, but as you know an Albanian with this haplotype was recently confirmed Y33200+. So, this is how the phylogenetic tree should look like if this split is confirmed:

I talk about the original proto-community in which certain language might have developed. For Greek those were likely older clades of Z2103, especially the likes of KMS67, knowing that from a large sample rafc once posted significant percentage of Greek Z2103+ was CTS7822- (22.5 % of Greek R1b), and obviously few Greeks have been SNP tested but KMS67 has already been found and looking at STR values from studies there are plenty of others. Of course few are L277 etc..
I have seen among Greeks also sings that Y5592 are going to be found, and that Vucedol sample was Y5592*.

Do you know something I don't here? If this is in regards to sample I3499 from BA Vucedol, he in fact has no call (unknown status) for Y5592. His sequence is such a low quality. All I got from him was Z2105+ PF331- CTS9219- L584- and many no calls for informative SNPs downstream of Z2103, including Y5592 (I didn't check all possible SNPs as it was too time consuming). I believe Genetiker only classified him as R1b~Z2103 also.

Interesting to see results of this Romanian. I bet he is YF08832 from YFull considering few people have been tested there (I know of only about 100 ethnic Romanians which includes 9 Moldovans), also that in Romania one only finds these haplotypes and finally that Albanian dys392=11 is apparently Y33200+. I guess this Romanian from Yfull also has 392=11.

This Romanian from YFull used to be a member of our project. He has a pretty "standard" Y33200 haplotype. From what I remember, he said he originates from southern Serbia.

 

[Vlad82]

I guess you guys still have trouble interpreting phylogenetic trees YF13874 is is not placed under R-Z2705* at YFull, which would mean negative for downstream Y33200. His placement right underneath R-Z2705, and not an actual R-Z2705*, means he is either forming a new subclade with YF06331 PRT, or he has no call for downstream Y33200. I would guess the latter is the likeliest scenario, because as I explained at Foleja, Y33200 is not well read by the BigY, so some will have no call (unknown status). It's possible he is indeed Y33200- as he has DYS549=14 like YF06082 and YF06331 like you pointed out, but no way to know based on his current placement at YFull. Anyways, he should probably check Y33200 at YSEQ, as he appears to have a no call on his BigY.

This Romanian from YFull used to be a member of our project. He has a pretty "standard" Y33200 haplotype. From what I remember, he said he originates from southern Serbia.

You are right about YF13874. When there is a problem to place a result on the phylogenetic tree Yfull put it between last known common SNP and those with *.
It can be seen also with PH908 results where this SNP is not covered by Big Y, all of them are between I-S17250 and I-S17250*
Maybe in future Yfull will change it in cooperation with Yseq, so people who confirm their SNP at Yseq will be placed on the right position on Ytree.

Interesting to see results of this Romanian. I bet he is YF08832 from YFull considering few people have been tested there (I know of only about 100 ethnic Romanians which includes 9 Moldovans), also that in Romania one only finds these haplotypes and finally that Albanian dys392=11 is apparently Y33200+.

Romanian from Ysearh was tested at SMFG
Romanian which result is at Yfull tree was tested at FTDna and have ordinary haplotype, I have also been informed that his paternal line is from Serbia.

 

[Vlad82]

Actually, according to FTDNA, there should already be a split in the Z2705 subclade in the Balkans. A person with Greek soundingsurname, should be negative for at least Y32147 and Y33199 which are currently at YFull's Z2705 level. It would be nice if this person uploads to YFull and this split is confirmed, but it appears he has been unresponsive. We don't know his STRs either, as it seems he hasn't joined any FTDNA projects. Of course, we thought DYS393=12 & DYS392=11 could represent this split, but as you know an Albanian with this haplotype was recently confirmed Y33200+. So, this is how the phylogenetic tree should look like if this split is confirmed:

.

Someone can accuse me of data mining and sharing results without permission. Anyway, I think that I have str markers of the tested person, but do not know anything about him and his paternal line, except that he is probably of Greek origin.

 

[Trojet]

Someone can accuse me of data mining and sharing results without permission. Anyway, I think that I have str markers of the tested person, but do not know anything about him and his paternal line, except that he is probably of Greek origin.

You gave me a great hint, just like I did with the tree I posted. I found them

He indeed does have DYS393=12 (instead of modal 13), DYS392=11 (instead of modal 13), and DYS459=8-9 (instead of the modal 8-10). So this haplotype should be in between YF06082 USA and YF06331 PRT and define the split I posted above, unless the same mutations happened downstream of Z2705,Y32149>Y32147,Y33200 which I think it's highly unlikely. The Albanian who came out Y33200+ has precisely this haplotype, and I see they are ~ GD 4/37. This raises the possibility that due to Y33200 not being well read by the BigY, YF06331 PRT may have a false negative, and therefore Y33200 would not be placed correctly at YFull and should be placed at the R-Z2705 level, which would mean it could be as old as 2600 ybp (formed age of R-Z2705). I suspected this when the Albanian with this exact haplotype came out Y33200+.

 

[Vlad82]

You gave me a great hint, just like I did with the tree I posted. I found them

He indeed does have DYS393=12 (instead of modal 13) and DYS392=11 (instead of modal 13), and DYS459=8-9 (instead of the modal 8-10). The Albanian who came out Y33200+ has precisely this haplotype, and I see they are GD 4/37. This raises the possibility that due to Y33200 not being well read by the BigY, YF06331 PRT may have a false negative, and therefore Y33200 is not placed correctly at YFull and perhaps should be placed at R-Z2705 level, which would mean it could be as old as 2600 ybp (formed age of R-Z2705). I suspected the same thing when the Albanian with this haplotype came out Y33200+

Yes, he is a member of Greek/Arcadia project.
FTDna has labelled him only as R-Y32149 which is in the same level as R-Z2705.
You have described one of the possibility.
Personally, I am very sceptical about the reliability of Big Y, especially for TMRCA calculations, there are many regions it does not cover or have low or no reads. We will probably need more WGS results with good coverage to revise the Ytree.

I hope you will be able to contact and persuade the tested person to order analysis at Yfull or just to send VCF file to one of R1b administrators for the free analysis.

I know (online) someone who has tested Bulgarian DYS393=12 DYS392=11 (12 STR markers), I had recommended him PH544 or Big Y as further tests for his relative. He ordered PH544 and got positive results. I think they might be willing to order Big Y or WGS.

 

[Ownstyler]

You gave me a great hint, just like I did with the tree I posted. I found them

He indeed does have DYS393=12 (instead of modal 13), DYS392=11 (instead of modal 13), and DYS459=8-9 (instead of the modal 8-10). So this haplotype should be in between YF06082 USA and YF06331 PRT and define the split I posted above, unless the same mutations happened downstream of Z2705,Y32149>Y32147,Y33200 which I think it's highly unlikely. The Albanian who came out Y33200+ has precisely this haplotype, and I see they are only GD 4/37. This raises the possibility that due to Y33200 not being well read by the BigY, YF06331 PRT may have a false negative, and therefore Y33200 would not be placed correctly at YFull and should be placed at the R-Z2705 level, which would mean it could be as old as 2600 ybp (formed age of R-Z2705). I suspected this when the Albanian with this exact haplotype came out Y33200+.

That makes sense, but I don't know about the final result, maybe because I don't understand how they calculate age formations very well.

The current age estimate for the mutation of Y33200 to be 1300 years old. Even if it turns out that there was a false negative, why would it mean that Y33200 is 2600 years old rather than just YF06331-PRT being Y33200?

 

[Trojet]

That makes sense, but I don't know about the final result, maybe because I don't understand how they calculate age formations very well.

The current age estimate for the mutation of Y33200 to be 1300 years old. Even if it turns out that there was a false negative, why would it mean that Y33200 is 2600 years old rather than just YF06331-PRT being Y33200?

Going by YFull's method, the current Age Estimate of all present samples under R-Z2705 would not change, regardless where Y33200 itself is placed. Simply, Y33200 may not be 1300 years old as currently placed at YFull, but rather closer to 2600 years old. If you look at R-Z2705 subclade, there is a Formed Age, and a TRMCA Age. Next to R-Z2705, there is 3+8 SNPs for a total 11, which means these SNPs defining R-Z2705 start forming at 2600 ybp and end at 1300 ybp (so, on average one every ~118 years or 4 generations). You can also see some of this information if you click "info" next to the subclade. Currently there is no way to know which ones happened first, or which ones are the ancestors and which ones are the descendants, as all present samples at YFull are positive for all of them. However, going by FTDNA, the Greek sample suggests he is negative for at least Y32147 and Y33199, so these would be some of the SNPs that happened later, ie closer to the 1300 ybp date. So my point was this Greek sample suggests that there should not be a split between R-Z2705 SNPs and R-Y33200 (considering the Greek samples has DYS393=12 and DYS392=11 like Celibashi who obviously came out Y33200+), and Y33200 should be placed at the R-Z2705 level SNPs, meaning it would be one of the SNPs that happened closer to the 2600 ybp date, and YF06331 PRT and the Greek sample should also be positive for it.

 

[Ownstyler]

Thank you for taking the time! I had no idea the Greek sample was likely negative for those two SNP-s. Maybe we can test Celibashi for one of them?

 

[Trojet]

Thank you for taking the time! I had no idea the Greek sample was likely negative for those two SNP-s. Maybe we can test Celibashi for one of them?

Exactly We need to test Celibashi for one of those two. If negative (as expected), this split would be confirmed!

 

[Trojet]

Actually, according to FTDNA, there should already be a split in the Z2705 subclade in the Balkans. A person with Greek sounding surname, should be negative for at least Y32147 and Y33199 which are currently at YFull's Z2705 level. It would be nice if this person uploads to YFull and this split is confirmed, but it appears he has been unresponsive. We don't know his STRs either, as it seems he hasn't joined any FTDNA projects. Of course, we thought DYS393=12 & DYS392=11 could represent this split, but as you know an Albanian with this haplotype was recently confirmed Y33200+. So, this is how the phylogenetic tree should look like if this split is confirmed:

You gave me a great hint, just like I did with the tree I posted. I found them

He indeed does have DYS393=12 (instead of modal 13), DYS392=11 (instead of modal 13), and DYS459=8-9 (instead of the modal 8-10). So this haplotype should be in between YF06082 USA and YF06331 PRT and define the split I posted above, unless the same mutations happened downstream of Z2705,Y32149>Y32147,Y33200 which I think it's highly unlikely. The Albanian who came out Y33200+ has precisely this haplotype, and I see they are ~ GD 4/37. This raises the possibility that due to Y33200 not being well read by the BigY, YF06331 PRT may have a false negative, and therefore Y33200 would not be placed correctly at YFull and should be placed at the R-Z2705 level, which would mean it could be as old as 2600 ybp (formed age of R-Z2705). I suspected this when the Albanian with this exact haplotype came out Y33200+.

An Albanian from Kosova with DYS393=13 just received his BigY results. I can confirm he is negative for Y32147 and Y33199 currently at YFull's R-Z2705 level, just like the Greek sample which I created that tree based on. After he uploads to YFull, he should become R-Z2705* and all current samples should create a new subclade: R-Z2705>Y32147,Y33199. This result is consistent with the idea that Y33200 may be placed incorrectly and should perhaps be one of the R-Z2705 equivalents.

 

[Aspurg]

Since the first sample has DYS393=13 (instead of 12), it's highly unlikely he would be Y23373* like the American (YF06082). IMO, he is most probably Z2705+ and Y33200+.

Indeed as I said, if he had 12 it would have made difference.

The second sample could possibly be Z2705* or be negative some SNPs at that level. This is of course assuming he is even BY611+ and not some L51.

In the study he is SNP confirmed as L23+ and P311-. Theoretically he could be under Z2118 but he has no matches there so it's very unlikely.

Do you know something I don't here? If this is in regards to sample I3499 from BA Vucedol, he in fact has no call (unknown status) for Y5592. His sequence is such a low quality. All I got from him was Z2105+ PF331- CTS9219- L584- and many no calls for informative SNPs downstream of Z2103, including Y5592 (I didn't check all possible SNPs as it was too time consuming). I believe Genetiker only classified him as R1b~Z2103 also.

I remember him being positive for BY20202-PF2642 but it might be a false call, and yes the quality was low.






Well your hypothesis about Y33200 being wrongly placed on YFull tree seems correct! That indeed explains so many things and this new Albanian result along with dys392=11 should create a wholly new situation on Z2705 tree once everything is properly rebalanced. Y33200 might easily be one of earlier SNP's at Z2705 level..


There seems to be indeed something about dys549=14. This Serb dys549=14 (and many Serb BY611 have it) being Y33200+ might not mean anything significant after all.


About possible whereabouts of Greek dys392=11. Well I know of 3 such haplotypes in Greeks. One is regionally unspecified. However the other 2 are both from Macedonia, one more specifically from Western Macedonia.
One is from Macedonia study the other from a regional study of Greece.

It is good to see that this haplotype might be of great importance after all. I was the one who brought this haplotype into light, more than a year ago. At the time most, even Vlad82 ignored it for the most part. Even still until recently in your online file which includes all BY611 there were no dys392=11. I guess only after Celibashi was tested, you and Leki also paid more attention to it. It makes little sense that it is very close to majority of others with multiple non-modal values on slow mutating markers.

And that tree looks much better!

 

[Ownstyler]

It is good to see that this haplotype might be of great importance after all. I was the one who brought this haplotype into light, more than a year ago. At the time most, even Vlad82 ignored it for the most part. Even still until recently in your online file which includes all BY611 there were no dys392=11.

The thing is, the person who is negative for those two SNP-s does not have those STR values, he has the standard 13 for both markers.

 

[Aspurg]

The thing is, the person who is negative for those two SNP-s does not have those STR values, he has the standard 13 for both markers.

The Greek is also negative for those two SNP's and he does have those STR's. This haplotype is easy to track because all studies include dys393 and dys392 and vast majority (certainly all newer studies) include dys385. And ofc these two clades might not be close to each other at all.

 

[Leka]

It might to an extent, but the new sample now with a pretty ‘standard’ halpo (393=13, 392=13) that Trojet just referenced has tested as Y32147- and Y33199-, like the Greek sample with 393=12 and 392=11. He does have 549=12 and GATAH4=10 so these two markers might end up being of some relevance, after all (we will have to wait for more samples to confirm it, though)


We saw those samples and singled them out early on, as you can see from the graph I created last year http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=17.0. But didn’t speculate on them based on their STRs alone, we needed to verify their position. I only engaged in this debate when I saw that you were singling them out to strengthen the eastern hypothesis