Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[Gannicus]

Ok then but I read that in albanians it was founded ,my error, and perosnally I am L51

 

[Trojet]

but as I said proto albanians L51 camefrom pannona, settled in modern day jugoslavia + albania, where they found anyone they assimilated him, so here we are.
And R1b-L51 is founded even among tosks.

Please stop embarrassing yourself. You obviously know nothing about genetics!
It appears you're not even interesting in learning, besides fabricating theories based on your personal result!

 

[Johane Derite]

Could you provide me some sources I can read through? I tend to adopt the prevailing theory of professionals as linguistic studies are not my discipline. I would like to read your sources if you could.

I listed sources in the comment. Robert Elsie and Eqrem Cabej. Cabej is mostly untranslated into english and only hard copies but you can buy them online. As for Robert Elsie, he is a serious scholar that knows Albanian history, culture and language much more in depth than Orel or Matzinger and I quoted him directly so you can just google the quote.

You made a very big claim about Albanian dialects being split very late only in the middle ages and did not provide a source.

Being a foreigner who writes about Albanian is not a sufficient criterion to make one a prevailing linguist.

90% of the primary sources and dictionaries that foreign linguists work with when doing etymologies were written by Cabej himself.

I have the perfect example of this:

In 1972 the Congress of Illyrian Studies was held in Albania where Giuliano Bonfante (renowned Italian linguist and expert on indo europeans and etruscans) was invited and present. Bonfante argued that Albanian was not related to Illyrian but to Thracian.

The critical moment in this congress was the disagreement that Cabej and Bonfante had. Bonfantes argument was that the shared latin words between Albanian and Romanian was evidence of Albanian's thracian origin.

Cabej argued that the presence of shared latin words in Albanian and Romanian was not the grounds for that since there are also many shared latin words in Greek (for example: Latin. conventus, Albanian.kuvénd, Romanian.cuvint, Greek.kuvenda, kuvendiazo). He also put forth as evidence the presence of Doric shared words in Albanian as a counter to the thracian argument.

Bonfante did not accept Cabejs arguments but its very enlightening what he said in his reply to Cabej. Below is a partial translation of the exchange:

Bonfante: "I'm afraid I can't accept the critique you made. I apologise if i didn't understand it well as I don't speak
Albanian. But based on what my translators said I stand by my argument which I based precisely on my reading of your dictionary that I consider a very serious work. I must admit that I don't know if you have any work after this dictionary."

This for me is the perfect example of the absurd arrogance and hubris that is typical of a certain type of academic.

 

[Zanatis]

Gannicus you got a lot of reading to do and a lot of bias to avoid as you seem to have some ridiculous Tosk Supremacy issues. I2a isn't Albanian and most probably it wasn't even North Illyrian, let alone Epirote.

So far the candidates are all from the Carpathian area, either Dacians, Bastarnae, Slavic, or even Celtic.

And what's with your Ethnic group being also Balkan Celt? Is that because of your y-DNA? lol

Which region of Albania do you come from? Myzeqeja?

 

[Dibran]

Ok then but I read that in albanians it was founded ,my error, and perosnally I am L51

It happens. Theres so many clades its easy to get them tangled up sometimes. L51 is part of Proto-Celts/Celts. You should test further to see what clade you are. Oldest sample from the Unetice Culture.

Albanians belong mostly to L23

 

[Zanatis]

It happens. Theres so many clades its easy to get them tangled up sometimes. L51 is part of Proto-Celts/Celts. You should test further to see what clade you are. Oldest sample from the Unetice Culture.

Albanians belong mostly to L23

I bet he didn't even test himself, he just likes the idea of being Indo-European and mistakenly put L51 thinking its the same as R1b.

 

[Dibran]

Gannicus you got a lot of reading to do and a lot of bias to avoid as you seem to have some ridiculous Tosk Supremacy issues. I2a isn't Albanian and most probably it wasn't even North Illyrian, let alone Epirote.

So far the candidates are all from the Carpathian area, either Dacians, Bastarnae, Slavic, or even Celtic.

And what's with your Ethnic group being also Balkan Celt? Is that because of your y-DNA? lol

Which region of Albania do you come from? Myzeqeja?

It did seem there was some Tosk supremacy in his comments. I didn't want to assume though lol.

 

[Dibran]

I bet he didn't even test himself, he just likes the idea of being Indo-European and mistakenly put L51 thinking its the same as R1b.

That would be silly wouldn't it. To put a random haplo up. But, Celts did penetrate the Balkans. It is always possible he is L51 and just didn't test much further.

 

[Gannicus]

As for my region I come from myezqeja, I have tested my self, but i did the cheap one 99$ cause i didn't have that much money to spend, and no i don't have any tosk supremacy bias or what so ever, just saying by logic that if albanians speak an indo-european language and indo-europeans have R1a/b i would tend to say think that R people brought the language instead of J or E.

 

[Gannicus]

And no i didn't put a random one it was written R1b-L51, and on the explanation: celts who settled in the balkans during the neolithic age around 1000 B.C.
Autosomaly I saw the thing hlof the 3 coloured lines and the bugger one, around 50% was neolithic,the second bigget one was paleolithic.

 

[Dibran]

I listed sources in the comment. Robert Elsie and Eqrem Cabej. Cabej is mostly untranslated into english and only hard copies but you can buy them online. As for Robert Elsie, he is a serious scholar that knows Albanian history, culture and language much more in depth than Orel or Matzinger and I quoted him directly so you can just google the quote.

You made a very big claim about Albanian dialects being split very late only in the middle ages and did not provide a source.

Being a foreigner who writes about Albanian is not a sufficient criterion to make one a prevailing linguist.

90% of the primary sources and dictionaries that foreign linguists work with when doing etymologies were written by Cabej himself.

I have the perfect example of this:

In 1972 the Congress of Illyrian Studies was held in Albania where Giuliano Bonfante (renowned Italian linguist and expert on indo europeans and etruscans) was invited and present. Bonfante argued that Albanian was not related to Illyrian but to Thracian.

The critical moment in this congress was the disagreement that Cabej and Bonfante had. Bonfantes argument was that the shared latin words between Albanian and Romanian was evidence of Albanian's thracian origin.

Cabej argued that the presence of shared latin words in Albanian and Romanian was not the grounds for that since there are also many shared latin words in Greek (for example: Latin. conventus, Albanian.kuvénd, Romanian.cuvint, Greek.kuvenda, kuvendiazo). He also put forth as evidence the presence of Doric shared words in Albanian as a counter to the thracian argument.

Bonfante did not accept Cabejs arguments but its very enlightening what he said in his reply to Cabej. Below is a partial translation of the exchange:

Bonfante: "I'm afraid I can't accept the critique you made. I apologise if i didn't understand it well as I don't speak
Albanian. But based on what my translators said I stand by my argument which I based precisely on my reading of your dictionary that I consider a very serious work. I must admit that I don't know if you have any work after this dictionary."

This for me is the perfect example of the absurd arrogance and hubris that is typical of a certain type of academic.

Well no need to be on the offensive. I am merely stating information that has been suggested, by even some Albanians to explain the maritime disparity. Theres also no agenda. I am after all Albanian born in the states, so there is that cultural disjointedness that comes with the Diaspora.

I also try to have a level had as theres always a bias for some, even in the professional arena.

I have also had other Albanians seem to contradict your statement above and claim Elsie is not worth his weight in words. So, really, its hard to juggle and sift through all these things when its not my discipline or focus.

It seems all theory camps have Albanians and non-Albanians alike. Though, many of what we know about paleo-balkan groups is little. With time I suppose we will get closer and closer to the truth as it unravels.

The only thing I am certain of is that Albanians descend mostly from Paleo-Balkan peoples. Which group, or a closely related group, I do not know. Theres very little left of the Illyrians and Thracians to know which group we are related to or from. I suppose Illyrian is the strongest candidate given geography, and where Albanians have been located for most of our known history.

I was under the impression Tosk split from proto Albanian with Gheg in the early middle ages. So you're saying this happened much earlier?

 

[Gannicus]

Uh and about why e reputed geg not speaking originally albanian it was because of all the strange features of it that push me to think that gegs learned and used it but weren't the original speakers, that's it.

 

[LABERIA]

I listed sources in the comment. Robert Elsie and Eqrem Cabej. Cabej is mostly untranslated into english and only hard copies but you can buy them online. As for Robert Elsie, he is a serious scholar that knows Albanian history, culture and language much more in depth than Orel or Matzinger and I quoted him directly so you can just google the quote.

You made a very big claim about Albanian dialects being split very late only in the middle ages and did not provide a source.

Being a foreigner who writes about Albanian is not a sufficient criterion to make one a prevailing linguist.

90% of the primary sources and dictionaries that foreign linguists work with when doing etymologies were written by Cabej himself.

I have the perfect example of this:

In 1972 the Congress of Illyrian Studies was held in Albania where Giuliano Bonfante (renowned Italian linguist and expert on indo europeans and etruscans) was invited and present. Bonfante argued that Albanian was not related to Illyrian but to Thracian.

The critical moment in this congress was the disagreement that Cabej and Bonfante had. Bonfantes argument was that the shared latin words between Albanian and Romanian was evidence of Albanian's thracian origin.

Cabej argued that the presence of shared latin words in Albanian and Romanian was not the grounds for that since there are also many shared latin words in Greek (for example: Latin. conventus, Albanian.kuvénd, Romanian.cuvint, Greek.kuvenda, kuvendiazo). He also put forth as evidence the presence of Doric shared words in Albanian as a counter to the thracian argument.

Bonfante did not accept Cabejs arguments but its very enlightening what he said in his reply to Cabej. Below is a partial translation of the exchange:

Bonfante: "I'm afraid I can't accept the critique you made. I apologise if i didn't understand it well as I don't speak
Albanian. But based on what my translators said I stand by my argument which I based precisely on my reading of your dictionary that I consider a very serious work. I must admit that I don't know if you have any work after this dictionary."

This for me is the perfect example of the absurd arrogance and hubris that is typical of a certain type of academic.

Yes, i have read this and i have also mentioned it in this forum, the clash of the titans. Bonfante supported on one side the theory of pan-Illyrism, for example he considered the Macedonians to be Illyrians, but on the other hand he denied any connection between Albanians and Ilirians. Çabej for his part, as always precise and with his famous style that did not leave much space to the interlocutor. Unfortunately we don't have one like him in these days.

 

[Dibran]

As for my region I come from myezqeja, I have tested my self, but i did the cheap one 99$ cause i didn't have that much money to spend, and no i don't have any tosk supremacy bias or what so ever, just saying by logic that if albanians speak an indo-european language and indo-europeans have R1a/b i would tend to say think that R people brought the language instead of J or E.

You keep ignoring that V13/J2b/R1b were already moving together during the Indo-European migrations. V13 and J2b were part of elite bronze age dominance. To assume everyone back then was one haplogroup is foolhardy. Also there are cases where Indo-European languages spread without displacing native lineages. Theres no consensus that R1a was the reason for PIE either.

 

[Dibran]

Uh and about why e reputed geg not speaking originally albanian it was because of all the strange features of it that push me to think that gegs learbed and used it but weren't the original speakers, that's it.

Where the hell did you get that from?

 

[Gannicus]

Where the hell did you get that from?

Just supposing, i think that for how far geg and tosk have developed their split happened long before the middle ages.

 

[LABERIA]

Gannicus you got a lot of reading to do and a lot of bias to avoid as you seem to have some ridiculous Tosk Supremacy issues. I2a isn't Albanian and most probably it wasn't even North Illyrian, let alone Epirote.

So far the candidates are all from the Carpathian area, either Dacians, Bastarnae, Slavic, or even Celtic.

And what's with your Ethnic group being also Balkan Celt? Is that because of your y-DNA? lol

Which region of Albania do you come from? Myzeqeja?

I don't think we have to do here with this Tosk Supremacy as you named. This guy is a very strange case. I invite you to read the previous pages of this thread.

 

[Gannicus]

Guys it's just such a mess this language/genitic relationship it pushes me to rethink everything i know about history, i wonder if we could put cctv cameras to see what was going on in those times...

 

[Dibran]

Just supposing, i think that for how far geg and tosk have developed their split happened long before the middle ages.

Thats a crazy supposition to assume Ghegs learned Albanian from Tosks.

 

[Gannicus]

Thats a crazy supposition to assume Ghegs learned Albanian from Tosks.

Ok, i don't mean that ancient albanians were exactly tosks or gegs, i mean that ancient albanian language could be some kind of similar ting to what modern day tosk is because it seems the most coherent with the indo-european language cluster in general.