Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

Here are some(this is the "public" version-some more results are visible only to Bulgarian DNA Project members):https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bulgariandna?iframe=yresults

BG results uploaded to YFULL :

https://www.google.com/search?q=bgr...GQ80KHbEUA5I4WhDx0wN6BAgFEDI&biw=1920&bih=912


You can check the FTDNA Y-tree too but the results should be already at YFull.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/A


May want to check out a long thread named "E-v13 in Bulgarian Iron Age" on another forum (results from Reich's lab TBD this or next year).


The Thracians were not subjected to extermination by any means and some tribes kept their language up until the Slavs and Bulgars' arrival (although the majority had adopted Latin ...or Greek to a lesser extent). The centuries under Roman rule up until the incursions from North seemed generally trouble free and a serious % of Roman soldiers were Thracians.
 
E-V13 spread during LBA/IA. during this process some became part of the thracians and some Illyrians and some Macedonian as well. so it does not have to be either or.
Bulgarians today have a very high diversity of E-V13. Even higher than albanians. Most of E-V13 today in albanian population is from founder effect after the sllavic migraton. We don't know what % of population E-V13 had before. it could have been higher or lower.
This has nothing to do with red hair.
No I have no access to the bulgarian database but I am sure I have seen results for bulgaria somewhere. for albanian % the most accurate is the Rrenjet as it has the largest sample and very well distributed for all the regions.

Without access to a bulgarian database we have no proof and same case for lack of ancient dna. Like I said the language and the red hair are the most important factors to look at when discussing offspring of the thracians. I believe they were r1a and r1b people - v13 people have nothing to do with red hair

There is no way at all v13 in albanians is founder effect after slavic invasions when northern albanians have 27%+ v13 and only 5% i2 din. South slavs have double i2 din over v13, dont speak nonsense.
The reason for bulgarians having varied v13 is multiple - v13 travelled all over the place, it occupied south slavic regions, greece etc. All neighbouring regions of thracians. Some of it was put in thracian regions by illyrian romans who already changed them into romanians and aromanians, after that it was spread there through byzantine empire and also a large amount would have been spread there by the south slavs who completely outnumbered thracians, changed their language forever.

If you look at bulgaria they have almost as much i2 din as serbia and obviously some v13 would have travelled to bulgaria alongside i2 din. Then we have the ottoman who carried v13 soldiers and would have obviously placed some in bulgaria too. When you look at all the ways v13 entered bulgaria over time you can understand why they would have diversity
 
Here are some(this is the "public" version-some more results are visible only to Bulgarian DNA Project members):https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bulgariandna?iframe=yresults
BG results uploaded to YFULL :
https://www.google.com/search?q=bgr...GQ80KHbEUA5I4WhDx0wN6BAgFEDI&biw=1920&bih=912
You can check the FTDNA Y-tree too but the results should be already at YFull.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/A
May want to check out a long thread named "E-v13 in Bulgarian Iron Age" on another forum (results from Reich's lab TBD this or next year).
The Thracians were not subjected to extermination by any means and some tribes kept their language up until the Slavs and Bulgars' arrival (although the majority had adopted Latin ...or Greek to a lesser extent). The centuries under Roman rule up until the incursions from North seemed generally trouble free and a serious % of Roman soldiers were Thracians.

Of course they were exterminated - they lost their language and they lost their red hair. To me if you compare bulgarian y dna with serbian you would see an almost complete population replacement - even some of the v13 travelled there with south slavs and if you look at their levels of r1b and j2b l283 that people which inhabited south slavic regions you could see that even they moved to bulgaria alongside v13 WITH the south slavic movement.

Sure, some of it is also from roman era and byzantine and some from ottoman soldiers but it is possible that the bulk of south slavic dna in bulgaria is not just i2 din and slavic r1a but also v13, r1b and j2b
 
Of course they were exterminated - they lost their language and they lost their red hair. To me if you compare bulgarian y dna with serbian you would see an almost complete population replacement - even some of the v13 travelled there with south slavs and if you look at their levels of r1b and j2b l283 that people which inhabited south slavic regions you could see that even they moved to bulgaria alongside v13 WITH the south slavic movement.

Sure, some of it is also from roman era and byzantine and some from ottoman soldiers but it is possible that the bulk of south slavic dna in bulgaria is not just i2 din and slavic r1a but also v13, r1b and j2b


You are fixated with red hair :)
 
Without access to a bulgarian database we have no proof and same case for lack of ancient dna. Like I said the language and the red hair are the most important factors to look at when discussing offspring of the thracians. I believe they were r1a and r1b people - v13 people have nothing to do with red hair
There is no way at all v13 in albanians is founder effect after slavic invasions when northern albanians have 27%+ v13 and only 5% i2 din. South slavs have double i2 din over v13, dont speak nonsense.
The reason for bulgarians having varied v13 is multiple - v13 travelled all over the place, it occupied south slavic regions, greece etc. All neighbouring regions of thracians. Some of it was put in thracian regions by illyrian romans who already changed them into romanians and aromanians, after that it was spread there through byzantine empire and also a large amount would have been spread there by the south slavs who completely outnumbered thracians, changed their language forever.
If you look at bulgaria they have almost as much i2 din as serbia and obviously some v13 would have travelled to bulgaria alongside i2 din. Then we have the ottoman who carried v13 soldiers and would have obviously placed some in bulgaria too. When you look at all the ways v13 entered bulgaria over time you can understand why they would have diversity

I did not say all ev13 is founder effect. I said most is. look at the data. The reason albanian have high ev13 % is from founder effect. that does not mean we dont have some diversity and does not change the LBA/IA arrival period.
 
I did not say all ev13 is founder effect. I said most is. look at the data. The reason albanian have high ev13 % is from founder effect. that does not mean we dont have some diversity and does not change the LBA/IA arrival period.

Founder effect is nonsense really - founder effect is something that happens when there are no other men to compete with - when they have been wiped out. A founder effect of v13 in albania due to slavic invasion would mean that albania would have 45% i2 din and 20% slavic r1a in addition to the 27% v13 and would speak a south slavic language. As you can see those figures are absolute nonsense.

When we find v13 in bulgaria from around 1000bc-500bc then we can consider it being thracian. Right now it looks impossible with the spread it has.

With what i can see on the internet right now - bulgarians could be from 50-75% serbian.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gen... among,other uncommon haplogroups with lesser

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Bulgarians

Elevated levels of j2a in bulgarians is likely linked to romans as well as g2a and r1b - who already dimished thracians long before slavic invasion
 
Founder effect is nonsense really - founder effect is something that happens when there are no other men to compete with - when they have been wiped out. A founder effect of v13 in albania due to slavic invasion would mean that albania would have 45% i2 din and 20% slavic r1a in addition to the 27% v13 and would speak a south slavic language. As you can see those figures are absolute nonsense.
When we find v13 in bulgaria from around 1000bc-500bc then we can consider it being thracian. Right now it looks impossible with the spread it has.
With what i can see on the internet right now - bulgarians could be from 50-75% serbian.

Elevated levels of j2a in bulgarians is likely linked to romans as well as g2a and r1b - who already dimished thracians long before slavic invasion

Also did not say one founder either. as this is in some subclades not one.
There is plenty of native J2a to the balkans. so where do you have some sort of proof that is roman? All J2a that we have found at Rrenjet thus far is all native and not from Roman based on distance TMRCA, etc. same is true for bulgarians based on Y full result.
You are not basing your comments on data but presumptions. not even serbians have more than 60% slavic lines. how can bulgarians have more :)
 
romans state this



Appian gives the definition of the term ‘Illyrian’ as perceived by the Romans and it is clear that the Epirotes are again excluded: ‘These peoples [=i.e. the peoples considered by the Greeks to be Illyrian], and also the Pannonians, the Rhaetians, the Noricans, the Mysians of Europe, and the other neighboring tribes who inhabited the right bank of the Danube, the Romans distinguish from one another just as the various Greek peoples are distinguished from each other, and they call each by its own name, but they consider the whole of lllyria as embraced under a common designation.’ (The Illyrian Wars 1.6)[19] .



After the flood of Deucalion, the region was settled by the Pelasgians. This can be confirmed by the following tradition which Plutarch (1st-2nd centuries AD) mentions: ‘Historians tell us that the first king of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the flood was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with PELASGUS’ (Life of Pyrrhus 1.1)[7] . The phrase ‘ONE of those who came with Pelasgus’ implies that Pelasgus led a group of settlers into the region, who, as it seems, were named ‘Pelasgians’ after their leader. And that the Epirotes (Molossians, Chaonians, Thesprotians etc.) were indeed Pelasgian can be seen from the following quotation: ‘Many have likewise asserted that the nations of Epirus are Pelasgic, because the dominions of the Pelasgi extended so far’ (Strabo ‘Geography’ 5.2.4).[8]


Shaban Demiraj, one of the most prominent Albanian linguists and chairman of the Academy of Sciences of Albania from 1993–1997, has debunked such claims in his book ‘Epiri, pellazgët, etruskët dhe shqiptarët’ (‘Epirus, Pelasgians, Etruscans and Albanians’), where, in page 51, he writes: ‘the Pelasgian-Illyrian equation is not substantiated either historically or linguistically (barazimi pellazg-ilir nuk del i argumentuar as historikisht as gjuhësisht)’.



according to ancient accounts, the Epirotes were Pelasgians. Epirotes are neither Illyrian nor Greek



The Epirotes are ALWAYS differentiated from their northern neighbors (the Illyrians) and there is not a SINGLE mention that they belonged to the same nation.

Under Rome...modern Albania was divided into old-Epirus ( southern part ) and new-Epirus ( northern part )
 
romans state this



Appian gives the definition of the term ‘Illyrian’ as perceived by the Romans and it is clear that the Epirotes are again excluded: ‘These peoples [=i.e. the peoples considered by the Greeks to be Illyrian], and also the Pannonians, the Rhaetians, the Noricans, the Mysians of Europe, and the other neighboring tribes who inhabited the right bank of the Danube, the Romans distinguish from one another just as the various Greek peoples are distinguished from each other, and they call each by its own name, but they consider the whole of lllyria as embraced under a common designation.’ (The Illyrian Wars 1.6)[19] .



After the flood of Deucalion, the region was settled by the Pelasgians. This can be confirmed by the following tradition which Plutarch (1st-2nd centuries AD) mentions: ‘Historians tell us that the first king of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the flood was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with PELASGUS’ (Life of Pyrrhus 1.1)[7] . The phrase ‘ONE of those who came with Pelasgus’ implies that Pelasgus led a group of settlers into the region, who, as it seems, were named ‘Pelasgians’ after their leader. And that the Epirotes (Molossians, Chaonians, Thesprotians etc.) were indeed Pelasgian can be seen from the following quotation: ‘Many have likewise asserted that the nations of Epirus are Pelasgic, because the dominions of the Pelasgi extended so far’ (Strabo ‘Geography’ 5.2.4).[8]


Shaban Demiraj, one of the most prominent Albanian linguists and chairman of the Academy of Sciences of Albania from 1993–1997, has debunked such claims in his book ‘Epiri, pellazgët, etruskët dhe shqiptarët’ (‘Epirus, Pelasgians, Etruscans and Albanians’), where, in page 51, he writes: ‘the Pelasgian-Illyrian equation is not substantiated either historically or linguistically (barazimi pellazg-ilir nuk del i argumentuar as historikisht as gjuhësisht)’.



according to ancient accounts, the Epirotes were Pelasgians. Epirotes are neither Illyrian nor Greek



The Epirotes are ALWAYS differentiated from their northern neighbors (the Illyrians) and there is not a SINGLE mention that they belonged to the same nation.

Under Rome...modern Albania was divided into old-Epirus ( southern part ) and new-Epirus ( northern part )

Romans often mention illyria not epirus - epirus was further south. One of their leaders died in south greece peloponesse. Epirus was mostly greek land/people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus

It is true that the dorians came from epirus down into greece and changed greek genetics and language though - epirote greeks/dorians would have had different dna to mycaneans and minoan greeks. Over time illyrians would have expanded into epirus and become bilingual

It is true that most illyrians were north of "albania" where it is today but as time passed plenty moved south and then they were ultimately pushed down by south slavic invasion
 
Romans often mention illyria not epirus - epirus was further south. One of their leaders died in south greece peloponesse. Epirus was mostly greek land/people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus
It is true that the dorians came from epirus down into greece and changed greek genetics and language though - epirote greeks/dorians would have had different dna to mycaneans and minoan greeks. Over time illyrians would have expanded into epirus and become bilingual
It is true that most illyrians were north of "albania" where it is today but as time passed plenty moved south and then they were ultimately pushed down by south slavic invasion


under Rome .....Albania was firstly incorporated into the area called Macedonia.....later it became New-Epirus ..........................this is because Macedonia ruled it for hundred plus years. Romans took it because Macedonia was an ally of Hannibal.

The Roman province of Macedonia (Latin: Provincia Macedoniae, Ancient Greek: Ἐπαρχία Μακεδονίας) [2][3] was officially established in 146 BC, after the Roman general Quintus Caecilius Metellus defeated Andriscus of Macedon, the last self-styled king of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia in 148 BC, and after the four client republics (the "tetrarchy") established by Rome in the region were dissolved. The province incorporated the former kingdom of Macedonia with the addition of Epirus, Thessaly, and parts of Paeonia
 
Also did not say one founder either. as this is in some subclades not one.
There is plenty of native J2a to the balkans. so where do you have some sort of proof that is roman? All J2a that we have found at Rrenjet thus far is all native and not from Roman based on distance TMRCA, etc. same is true for bulgarians based on Y full result.
You are not basing your comments on data but presumptions. not even serbians have more than 60% slavic lines. how can bulgarians have more :)

Native to who?? Thracians were not j2a and neither were illyrians. J2a had to come from somewhere - the early greeks had plenty j2a and g2 so maybe thracians were heavily influenced by greeks early on -

"Nobody would disagree that many Thracians were Hellenized at some point in time and that since the earliest interactions with the Greeks, Greek became an important language in the region. For many Thracians the most spoken second language. The Greek alphabet was used for Thracian coinage."

Not enough testing has been done so far - things will connect over time and you will understand that most j2a + g2 moved from greece to south italy - then romans formed and carried r1b u152 in addition to j2a and g2 - spreading these across the world in addition to the foreign troops they deployed.

As for Bulgaria the south slavic influence is undeniable - it is already obvious with the language they speak and their genetics too, even written history -

"The first South Slavic polity and regional power was Bulgaria, a state formed in 681 as a union between the much numerous Slavic tribes and the bulgars of Khan Asparuh."

Thracians were already heavily influenced by greeks - then half their people were replaced by romans to become romanians and aromanians and then the huge south slavic change. What makes you think bulgaria has much thracian influence left after this?? I wont even mention ottoman as by then people had already established big groups and populations

I didnt say serbia is 100% made up of south slavs i said that the assimilated people may have also moved to bulgaria with them to explain some elevated levels of v13, j2b, r1b etc
 
under Rome .....Albania was firstly incorporated into the area called Macedonia.....later it became New-Epirus ..........................this is because Macedonia ruled it for hundred plus years. Romans took it because Macedonia was an ally of Hannibal.

The Roman province of Macedonia (Latin: Provincia Macedoniae, Ancient Greek: Ἐπαρχία Μακεδονίας) [2][3] was officially established in 146 BC, after the Roman general Quintus Caecilius Metellus defeated Andriscus of Macedon, the last self-styled king of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia in 148 BC, and after the four client republics (the "tetrarchy") established by Rome in the region were dissolved. The province incorporated the former kingdom of Macedonia with the addition of Epirus, Thessaly, and parts of Paeonia

The map of epirus covers only a small portion of albania (the south) - most albanians live outside of that region and plenty in kosovo and macedonia in fact even further north prior to recent events

Anyway - ancient epirus didnt have much to do with illyrians nor proto albanians who dont speak greek

"Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic times by seafarers along the coast and by hunters and shepherds in the interior who brought with them the Greek language.[1] These people buried their leaders in large tumuli containing shaft graves, similar to the Mycenaean tombs, indicating an ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenaean civilization."
 
romans state this



Appian gives the definition of the term ‘Illyrian’ as perceived by the Romans and it is clear that the Epirotes are again excluded: ‘These peoples [=i.e. the peoples considered by the Greeks to be Illyrian], and also the Pannonians, the Rhaetians, the Noricans, the Mysians of Europe, and the other neighboring tribes who inhabited the right bank of the Danube, the Romans distinguish from one another just as the various Greek peoples are distinguished from each other, and they call each by its own name, but they consider the whole of lllyria as embraced under a common designation.’ (The Illyrian Wars 1.6)[19] .



After the flood of Deucalion, the region was settled by the Pelasgians. This can be confirmed by the following tradition which Plutarch (1st-2nd centuries AD) mentions: ‘Historians tell us that the first king of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the flood was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with PELASGUS’ (Life of Pyrrhus 1.1)[7] . The phrase ‘ONE of those who came with Pelasgus’ implies that Pelasgus led a group of settlers into the region, who, as it seems, were named ‘Pelasgians’ after their leader. And that the Epirotes (Molossians, Chaonians, Thesprotians etc.) were indeed Pelasgian can be seen from the following quotation: ‘Many have likewise asserted that the nations of Epirus are Pelasgic, because the dominions of the Pelasgi extended so far’ (Strabo ‘Geography’ 5.2.4).[8]


Shaban Demiraj, one of the most prominent Albanian linguists and chairman of the Academy of Sciences of Albania from 1993–1997, has debunked such claims in his book ‘Epiri, pellazgët, etruskët dhe shqiptarët’ (‘Epirus, Pelasgians, Etruscans and Albanians’), where, in page 51, he writes: ‘the Pelasgian-Illyrian equation is not substantiated either historically or linguistically (barazimi pellazg-ilir nuk del i argumentuar as historikisht as gjuhësisht)’.



according to ancient accounts, the Epirotes were Pelasgians. Epirotes are neither Illyrian nor Greek



The Epirotes are ALWAYS differentiated from their northern neighbors (the Illyrians) and there is not a SINGLE mention that they belonged to the same nation.

Under Rome...modern Albania was divided into old-Epirus ( southern part ) and new-Epirus ( northern part )

Because of the divisions that the Romans did it does not mean that was the border of Illyrian tribes. The romans had to take many things into account once they took over the area. one of those things was that macedonian had been the regional dominant power for the last few centuries with great infuence over the sourthern Illyrian tribes. Why would the romans change a status quo without any tangible benefits? so the argument that you present is very superficial and does not take into account a much more complex situation that a new empire had to manage. The new Epirus was for sure populated by Illyrians.
We can tell from dna results of the population today which are the lines that have been there since antiquity and which are post roman/middle age migration to the south. Its for sure that Illyrians were further south than this roman division. At least Shkumbin river.
Yes I agree there are no pelasgians left. pelasgians were the neolithic population and they have clearly been wiped out. no serious albanian historian has argued about pelasgians. at best some of them have left it an open question.
Currently most of north epir is made of similar lines as north albania. but many of them are middle age migration to the south. the old epir lines seem distant from both greek lines and north albanian lines. so there must have been a transition area there. There is no dna evidence to link Epir old haplogroups with "dorian" in southern greece. Old epirotan lines in north epir/south albania are not pelasgians but bronze age and some Iron age. there are no significant neolithic lines in north epir. but this phenomen is more relevant to south west albania or north west epir.
In south east albania/north east epir there are some BA/IA haplogroups that are similar to north albania. so the picture even here has many degrees.
 
I think "pelasgians" seem like nothing more than a storytime myth - almost like some mythical greek stories about zeus etc.

If they existed they were likely some early people who inhabited the mediterranean regions but were wiped out by bigger groups of invaders - maybe R1B PF7562 have something to do with these old mythical people?
 
I think "pelasgians" seem like nothing more than a storytime myth - almost like some mythical greek stories about zeus etc.

If they existed they were likely some early people who inhabited the mediterranean regions but were wiped out by bigger groups of invaders - maybe R1B PF7562 have something to do with these old mythical people?

I doubt it was pf7562. they are indoeuropean is one reason they can not be pelasgian as Homer, which is the first written source for pelasgians clearly state that they spoke very different language. second reason there in no BA/IA pf7562 in greece as of now. all pf7562 that has been tested in greece is from albanian/arvanitas migration. so it cant be an haplogroup that did not exist in greece at the time as far as we know for the moment. look at the yfull distribution of pf7562/3.
 
The map of epirus covers only a small portion of albania (the south) - most albanians live outside of that region and plenty in kosovo and macedonia in fact even further north prior to recent events
Anyway - ancient epirus didnt have much to do with illyrians nor proto albanians who dont speak greek
"Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic times by seafarers along the coast and by hunters and shepherds in the interior who brought with them the Greek language.[1] These people buried their leaders in large tumuli containing shaft graves, similar to the Mycenaean tombs, indicating an ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenaean civilization."


you can see the first time the albani tribe named in Epirus nova (see map below )

 
you can see the first time the albani tribe named in Epirus nova (see map below )

yes I have seen the map.
but in any case there are currently ancient remains from albanian territories being tested. most likely during this year we should get results from south albania and get some clarity.
 
I doubt it was pf7562. they are indoeuropean is one reason they can not be pelasgian as Homer, which is the first written source for pelasgians clearly state that they spoke very different language. second reason there in no BA/IA pf7562 in greece as of now. all pf7562 that has been tested in greece is from albanian/arvanitas migration. so it cant be an haplogroup that did not exist in greece at the time as far as we know for the moment. look at the yfull distribution of pf7562/3.

I thought Homer called them barbaric not speakers of ancient Greek? Did he mention what happened to them?
Could just be early g or i2 peeps then.
 
I thought Homer called them barbaric not speakers of Greek? Did he mention what happened to them?

Could just be early g or i2 peeps then.

The way he talks about them sounds like Neolithic population. But as you said its all legends.
 
you can see the first time the albani tribe named in Epirus nova (see map below )
What year is this from? Albani tribe doesnt mean anything - its just a small name on the map amongst many others - if you are saying this map means they are below illyrians regionally and unrelated you are wrong as you can see the Taulantii below the "Albani" on the map. Taulantii were one of the most powerful and long lasting illyrian tribes -

"Taulantii were an Illyrian people that lived on the Adriatic coast of southern Illyria (modern Albania). They dominated at various times much of the plain between the rivers Drin and Aous. Their central area was the hinterland of Epidamnos-Dyrrhachion, corresponding to present-day Tirana and the region between the valleys of Mat and Shkumbin.[2] The Taulantii are among the oldest attested Illyrian peoples, who established a powerful kingdom in southern Illyria.[3] They are among the peoples who most marked Illyrian history, and thus found their place in the numerous works of historians in classical antiquity."

No one has said albanians are made up of ALL illyrians, that is nonsense. Albanians likely formed from several illyrian tribes that spoke similar languages - mostly south illyrians and maybe some people like dardanians and ancient macedonians. Geg albanians maybe formed from a mix of slightly different tribes (family clans) to tosk albanians but still same language - maybe geg albanians had more dardani influence
 

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