Politics Comrades, what about Russia in EU to 2050 year?

[barbarian]

He think so because USA really want Turkey in the EU: www (dot) youtube (dot) com/watch?v=wnLrZYL1wQc&feature=related
and UK ("mammy of USA" ) too: www (dot) youtube (dot) com/watch?v=D1V-KLmfqvo

On the place of 100% europhiles I would be very and very suspicious because American politicians is definitely not interested in an independent Europe, a potential hi-tech competitor. In my subjective opinion the USA probably understands that growth of European identity can not be stoped, so they trying to neutralize it in the egg. There are many methods: to turn EU into multicultural zoo and then there will be a complete mess, to use the Great Britain's politicians for injection of anti-EU hysteria etc... That's my personal opinion.

that is what i think. additionally, US wants additional qualification to vote in EU.

 

[LeBrok]

Just think guys. Germany and Japan were under control of US after WW2. It doesn't look like US cared to direct their economies, or drug them down. If there was an influence it was a positive one. Germany and Japan are now Hi Tech super-houses in spite of US military bases being their. Someone explain, how US "won't let others prosper", if we have 2 brilliant examples, Germany and Japan (many years under US control), telling us otherwise.

I noticed that in many cases people love to escape into a "victim" position. It is so easy to blame others, especially the "all mighty, evil empire, all controlling" US/CIA, for their own shortcomings. It's so hard to see our own inadequacies and faults, and it's so easy to point fingers at others. "No, no, it can't be me because I'm so special. It can't be my country, because this is the best country in the world. It is so logical that this must be them, drugging me down and keeping poor."
Korea, Singapore, China, Ireland, Germany,..., shows that prosperity is up for grabs. Just move up your butts and pick the right economic system. And if you do it right, the rest of world will help you.

If it comes to Russia and EU. Everything is pretty much in Russia's hands. There are rules and criterias for EU members. If Russia fulfils them, qualifies, and wishes to belong to EU, then they are in. Simple like that.

If Russians don't do that, they will find themselves in a predicament. They'll be standing alone against New China with economy 20 times bigger than Russian. Good luck then.

 

[Reinaert]

Just think guys. Germany and Japan were under control of US after WW2. It doesn't look like US cared to direct their economies, or drug them down. If there was an influence it was a positive one. Germany and Japan are now Hi Tech super-houses in spite of US military bases being their. Someone explain, how US "won't let others prosper", if we have 2 brilliant examples, Germany and Japan (many years under US control), telling us otherwise.

I noticed that in many cases people love to escape into a "victim" position. It is so easy to blame others, especially the "all mighty, evil empire, all controlling" US/CIA, for their own shortcomings. It's so hard to see our own inadequacies and faults, and it's so easy to point fingers at others. "No, no, it can't be me because I'm so special. It can't be my country, because this is the best country in the world. It is so logical that this must be them, drugging me down and keeping poor."
Korea, Singapore, China, Ireland, Germany,..., shows that prosperity is up for grabs. Just move up your butts and pick the right economic system. And if you do it right, the rest of world will help you.

If it comes to Russia and EU. Everything is pretty much in Russia's hands. There are rules and criterias for EU members. If Russia fulfils them, qualifies, and wishes to belong to EU, then they are in. Simple like that.

If Russians don't do that, they will find themselves in a predicament. They'll be standing alone against New China with economy 20 times bigger than Russian. Good luck then.

Well, as an American.. Don't interfere with Europe.
All you tell about Germany and Japan is bullshit.

It's just American self interest.

In The Netherlands there was propaganda about the "Marshall Plan".

But everyone keeps silent about the about 500 merchant ships and crews the Dutch lost in aiding the allied war effort.
Nobody talks about all the aluminum they took from the Dutch territory of Suriname during WW2. The miners there were used as slaves.

So the famous "Marshall Plan" was only some compensation for a much bigger American debt.

Some other figures!

I was born in the beginning of the 50's.
And in that year the Dutch government spent 25% of all the tax money in weaponry!!!..

So I guess the Americans had a great lobbyist back then.
A Royal Criminal we all know very well.
Does the name "Bilderberg" ring a bell?

So, the story is quite simple, The Dutch have one stupid government after another, manipulated by America.
No matter what the outcome of elections is. We're ****** over and over again.

We have had enough of it.

 

[Reinaert]

I think that Europe will be all the stronger in the years to come.

Then we have to remove all wire taps in government buildings in Europe.
Take over the financial control of the media, and make it independent from America again.

In other words.. Kick the Americans out of Europe.

 

[Regulus]

Just think guys. Germany and Japan were under control of US after WW2. It doesn't look like US cared to direct their economies, or drug them down. If there was an influence it was a positive one. Germany and Japan are now Hi Tech super-houses in spite of US military bases being their. Someone explain, how US "won't let others prosper", if we have 2 brilliant examples, Germany and Japan (many years under US control), telling us otherwise.

I noticed that in many cases people love to escape into a "victim" position. It is so easy to blame others, especially the "all mighty, evil empire, all controlling" US/CIA, for their own shortcomings. It's so hard to see our own inadequacies and faults, and it's so easy to point fingers at others. "No, no, it can't be me because I'm so special. It can't be my country, because this is the best country in the world. It is so logical that this must be them, drugging me down and keeping poor."
Korea, Singapore, China, Ireland, Germany,..., shows that prosperity is up for grabs. Just move up your butts and pick the right economic system. And if you do it right, the rest of world will help you.

If it comes to Russia and EU. Everything is pretty much in Russia's hands. There are rules and criterias for EU members. If Russia fulfils them, qualifies, and wishes to belong to EU, then they are in. Simple like that.

If Russians don't do that, they will find themselves in a predicament. They'll be standing alone against New China with economy 20 times bigger than Russian. Good luck then.

LeBrok, Don't you know better than to confuse people with the facts?

GW Bush's biggest blunder was not worker harder to cultivate a better relationship with Russia. Russia should seek whatever economic advantages that they can.

 

[Maciamo]

It's a long time into the future. Who could have foreseen that France and Germany would be a founding members of the EU in the 1930's or 1940's; yet it happened in 1957.

At present I don't see how Russia could join the EU within the next 20 years. But 40, who is to say ?

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Just think guys. Germany and Japan were under control of US after WW2. It doesn't look like US cared to direct their economies, or drug them down. If there was an influence it was a positive one. Germany and Japan are now Hi Tech super-houses in spite of US military bases being their. Someone explain, how US "won't let others prosper", if we have 2 brilliant examples, Germany and Japan (many years under US control), telling us otherwise.

I noticed that in many cases people love to escape into a "victim" position. It is so easy to blame others, especially the "all mighty, evil empire, all controlling" US/CIA, for their own shortcomings. It's so hard to see our own inadequacies and faults, and it's so easy to point fingers at others. "No, no, it can't be me because I'm so special. It can't be my country, because this is the best country in the world. It is so logical that this must be them, drugging me down and keeping poor."
Korea, Singapore, China, Ireland, Germany,..., shows that prosperity is up for grabs. Just move up your butts and pick the right economic system. And if you do it right, the rest of world will help you.

I don't understand how this text is related to previous posts, no one here blame USA for damaging of the economies of other countries. Really American influence played a good historical role after WWII in Japan & Western Europe. But times are changing, now America is no longer needed where it's still have positions. For example, military bases in Germany which full of nukes aimed on Russia. I really don't think that it helps a lot for security in Europe today, it the same as Soviet rockets on Cuba in 1962 year which were aimed on American cities. I remember Yankees wanted to invade our Cuban friends island with 150000 of marines vs 10000 of Cuban military & 40000 of Soviet soldiers .
Also, USA used Europe & Japan for sale markets of own goods (GDP growing) and spreading of own influence at first and only after for "noble goals" (they of course had secondary and tertiary importance, played the role of "justification").
Japanise prime minister Yukio Hatoyama wanted to remove American military bases from own territory not so long ago, but in Japan total lacks of decisiveness & political crisis.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704546304575261332428348428.html#
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2009/11/08/japanese-want-the-us-military-out-of-japan/

If it comes to Russia and EU. Everything is pretty much in Russia's hands. There are rules and criterias for EU members. If Russia fulfils them, qualifies, and wishes to belong to EU, then they are in. Simple like that.

If Russians don't do that, they will find themselves in a predicament. They'll be standing alone against New China with economy 20 times bigger than Russian. Good luck then.

First, funny that Canucks are interested in Russia-EU relations .
Second, a powerful China is headache for USA & Japan + India at first and only after to Russia. U.S. wants to maintain its enormous sphere of influence while China is growing like on the steroids, dreams about Taiwan (Americans sell arms to Taiwan), China hate American military presence in Japan, support North Korea, spends on defense more and more with every year (build aircraft carriers already, developing 5 generation fighter... many other things), China underestimates the rate of own currency for cheating in trading with USA while USA in debts. No, China is headache for USA much more than for Russia. We just have border with China, but there is no "millions of Chinese" in the Far East of Russia like western media often want to image.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

It's a long time into the future. Who could have foreseen that France and Germany would be a founding members of the EU in the 1930's or 1940's; yet it happened in 1957.

At present I don't see how Russia could join the EU within the next 20 years. But 40, who is to say ?

I started topic to see reactions of Europeans, to see, whether it makes sense to think about it further or not. Russia can exist autonomously from Europe, but we have only 140 million people here. That's not enough for long ambitious prospects, 500 millions of European brothers would be very helpful especially considering that we Europeans, too. All these "Copenhagen criteria" are trivia if we talk about "idea" of such union in the future. "Copenhagen criteria" and other are just matter of time if Europeans really agree to have integration with Russia, 20-30 years and possibly Russia will be higher of any criteria.

I don't think that signing of documents of membership in the EU have big importance. Real integration of economies and all other spheres during next decades much more important. Russia even can be outside of EU formally on the paper until the end of times :grin:.

 

[Rastko Pocesta]

Russia is an undemocratic dictatorship, oppressive tyranny, authoritarian capitalist empire. No way for it to enter EU. Only if Yabloko assumes power, which is very unlikely.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Russia is an undemocratic dictatorship, oppressive tyranny, authoritarian capitalist empire.

LMAO man that made my day hahahaha
I hope you are just a trol, not a Serbian victim of democratization. Otherwise that scares shit out of me, seriously. Never thought that democratic bombings have such a brain damage effect

 

[Rastko Pocesta]

LMAO man that made my day hahahaha
I hope you are just a trol, not a Serbian victim of democratization. Otherwise that scares shit out of me, seriously. Never thought that democratic bombings have such a brain damage effect

"Victim of democratization?" Your point is that democracy is a bad thing? Democracy is the founding principle of all civilized societies. Rest in peace Anna Politkovskaya, Yuri Shchekochikhin, Anastasia Baburova and hundreds of other victims of Putin's "democracy." How many journalists are killed each year in Russia? Compare that to United States which has double more citizens. I didn't say USA Is great and Russia is bad. I am very fond of Russian culture and I hope I will speak Russian well enough one day to read Dostoyevski, Tolstoy, Pushkin, Chekhov... and Novaya Gazeta, of course! I support Yabloko and I hate both Putin and the oligarchs.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

"Victim of democratization?" Your point is that democracy is a bad thing?

My point is that under different "democratic" mottos very often hiding primitive hypocrisy. That's why need to be careful with it.

Democracy is the founding principle of all civilized societies.

Maybe, but democracy everywhere is different. South Korea was not democratic in the western sense of the word (it was ruled by military) after WWII and nevertheless built nice a economy.
Japan the same, from 1946 to 2008 year had one dominant political party in parliament.
Such developed island-county as Singapore even today rather authoritarian than democratic. Fairy tale that democracy = 100% indispensable.

How many journalists are killed each year in Russia?

That number in 3-4 times lower than in times of super mega democratic Boris Yeltsin in 90s, favorite of liberals. West as well very loved that alcoholic.

Rest in peace Anna Politkovskaya, Yuri Shchekochikhin, Anastasia Baburova and hundreds of other victims of Putin's "democracy."

Anastasia Baburova was killed by neo-nazis, not Putin; about Yuri Shchekochikhin have no idea who is it; Anna Politkovskaya difficult to say, maybe Chechen vicegerent Kadirov or victim of typical corruption. Journalists and human rights defenders often become a targets when shoved noses into other people's sins. Anyway you have not evidence, just talking that Putin is offspring of devil like all other liberals.
And gave please these "hundreads of other victims" names, very interesting to see.

I support Yabloko and I hate both Putin and the oligarchs.

What a retard really need to be to name the political party "Apple" (Yabloko) and wait after it that people will vote for it, next time they will name party "Potato" probably
Yabloko have a reputation of useless vain talkers, like Gorbachev: talking talking talking talking.... and they were big friends of oligarchs in 90s for sure.
By the way, is not it pretty strange, you said: "Russia is an undemocratic dictatorship, oppressive tyranny, authoritarian capitalist empire" but in the same time you talking about political loser party of opposition. If we are such a evil empire with Darth Vader (second Stalin ) at power then why the hell we have these "useless political parties", such newspapers like Novaya Gazeta as you said, some mainly opposition radio stations like "Эхо Москвы" etc... wtf? what a useless pieace of **** it's not need for our evil empire .
You know what I think? I think liberals wanna to justify their own total political bankruptcy by demonising of current regime.
I disagree with Mr.Putin & his party in many things, I even really can say that guy got too much respect among population that started to remind about old times of tsar, but such liberals like that Yabloko even worse. Do you know that leaders of our liberal "opposition" are frequent visitors to the American Embassy. I guess you know that guy on your avatar, Julian Assanje and his wikileaks. According to Wikileaks Russia's liberals constantly getting money from American Ambassador in Moscow and reports to him on the done work, such a pitiful creatures .
http://polithexogen.ru/info/46606.html
http://www.platon.kz/news/wikileaks/1209-wikileaks.html
http://www.mixnews.lv/ru/world/news/2011-01-24/56889
26 myths about Russia (French)
http://www.agoravox.fr/tribune-libre/article/26-mythes-sur-la-russie-67250

 

[Rastko Pocesta]

Who said I support South Korea and Japan? Both have even worse and crueler capitalism than Russia. Japan maybe is in some way democratic, but it still extremely conservative and reactionary, just like South Korea.

Boris Yeltsin was a war criminal and a thief, the worst leader Russia (Russian Federation, not including Soviet Union and the Russian Empire) ever had. That guy slaughtered civilians in Chechnya.

"Yabloko" is an acronym of the names of its founders: "Я" (Ya) for Grigory Yavlinsky; "Б" (B) for Yuri Boldyrev, and "Л" (L) for Vladimir Lukin

Wikipedia has a very long list with references for each of them.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Boris Yeltsin was a war criminal and a thief, the worst leader Russia (Russian Federation, not including Soviet Union and the Russian Empire) ever had. That guy slaughtered civilians in Chechnya.

Don't know where you saw "civilians in Chechnya". Just look at this innocent lambs faces
View attachment 4796.

Wikipedia has a very long list with references for each of them.

There all cases with journalists: someone forgot to put out the cigarette and died, someone was murdered, shot to death (military action), accidents and plane crash (accident), a terrorist act etc... there did not write that Putin killed them all, and it says in many cases that the perpetrators were convicted.

 

[Rastko Pocesta]

Lulz, how does it happen that so many journalists and human rights defenders die in "accidents"... and somehow those are always the ones who critizice the regime. In United States, which has double more citizens than Russia, it hardly ever happens.

Chechen terrorists like Dokka Umarov are one, the innocent civilians (how many children were killed in shelling of Grozny?) are the another story. Umarov was probably behind Domodedovo and Metro bombings. I suggest you a book titled "Brides of Allah" by Yulia Yuzik. Probably the best analysis of chechen terrorism and its causes ever written.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Lulz, how does it happen that so many journalists and human rights defenders die in "accidents"... and somehow those are always the ones who critizice the regime. In United States, which has double more citizens than Russia, it hardly ever happens.

Many who critizice the regime, but rarely who scream that it's all Putin behind all bad things except liberals. I already gave you that link:
http://www.agoravox.fr/tribune-libre/article/26-mythes-sur-la-russie-67250
It says that during Putin presidency 2000-2008 were killed 17 journalists, during the period of Yeltsin's 30 journalists.
Quote from the article:
"According to CIA, Russia stands on the 4 th place in the world in the number of journalists killed since 1992, but at 14 the ratio of killed journalists per capita, to Israel and Algeria, and just behind Turkey, which claims to membership in the EU.
And compared with other former Soviet countries, Russia is at 5 place (out of 13), just behind Latvia - EU member country."

USA is a bad example for imitation, they up to ears in problems with human rights
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-04/10/c_13822179.htm

Chechen terrorists like Dokka Umarov are one, the innocent civilians (how many children were killed in shelling of Grozny?)

It's a war, there is always civilian victims. If we will take number of civilians killed by NATO in Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Libya then it will be much higher than in Chechnya.

 

[Rastko Pocesta]

Everyone speaks about Iraq for 7 years and I am one of the most vocal among them in Serbia. United States conducted an illegal aggression against Iraq in which hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were killed. Same applies to Afghanistan. Serbia and Libya are different. However, no one even mentions Chechenya with so many children being killed.

How many journalists died in "accidents" during Bush presidency? Okay, he built the concentration camp in which he tortured and abused prisoners without providing them fair trial or any of the basic human rights guaranteed by both US constitution, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, European Convention on Human Rights, American Convention on Human Rights, Miranda v. Arizona ec. So, he shall be tried and sentenced to maximum prison sentence for that crime. We both know that he will never be imprisoned, same applies to Putin, but we are here to discuss the crimes they committed.

 

[Dagne]

I think it would be great if Russian government/people wanted to change towards European values! I as a Lithuanian would support such movement very much.

But nobody in Russia really discusses about joining the EU, do they? Somehow in my understanding Russians themselves would take more pride in Russia being a strong, authoritarian superpower that Europe is afraid of, rather than being a part of Europe which discusses and shares ...

Stalin is still a very popular among Russians, isn't he? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7798497.stm
That tells a so much to me... For comparison, it would be totally inconceivable to imagine that Germans voted Hitler to be the third greatest ever countryman.

 

[Rastko Pocesta]

I think it would be great if Russian government/people wanted to change towards European values! I as a Lithuanian would support such movement very much.

But nobody in Russia really discusses about joining the EU, do they? Somehow in my understanding Russians themselves would take more pride in Russia being a strong, authoritarian superpower that Europe is afraid of, rather than being a part of Europe which discusses and shares ...

Stalin is still a very popular among Russians, isn't he? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7798497.stm
That tells a so much to me... For comparison, it would be totally inconceivable to imagine that Germans voted Hitler to be the third greatest ever countryman.

Actually choosing Hitler or anyone from the Nazi regime in the "Unsere Besten" was banned.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Stalin is still a very popular among Russians, isn't he? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7798497.stm
That tells a so much to me... For comparison, it would be totally inconceivable to imagine that Germans voted Hitler to be the third greatest ever countryman.

Problem with Stalin that he was a winner in WWII, winners usually getting a lot of glory and rarely judged. But he have a lot blood on the hands and it should not be forgotten. Communists convicted him only in a narrow club of own trusted people, not in masses. There is some government plans of destalinization, exist the memory day of repressions victims, literature of such writers like Solzhenitsyn in free access. But hardly to do something with people who was born in Soviet Union, they see in Stalin a man who saved them from Hitler and turned country into superpower.
I think here need of course government anti-Stalin propaganda, but really can help only alternation of generations, people of new "Pepsi generation" are more skeptical to Stalin and communist rule in general.
Unfortunately, very difficult to discuss historical issues with our Baltic friends because some Baltic governments condone to ex-nazi veterans parades (every year at 19 March), rename city streets by names of Chechen terrorists, oppress the rights of Russian speaking minority. This complicates everything.

But nobody in Russia really discusses about joining the EU, do they? Somehow in my understanding Russians themselves would take more pride in Russia being a strong, authoritarian superpower that Europe is afraid of, rather than being a part of Europe which discusses and shares ...

System in modern Russia probably looks a little bit authoritarian, but in the root it democratic. Because Mr.Putin cares about his reputation very much, he constantly play in macho and uses Chuck Norris style PR: extinguishes fires by plane, shows the skills of judo, communicates with bikers, poses with bare-chested, play in ice hokey, shot in whales by special gun to set the beacon on the body ect... next time that guy will probably launch himself in the space Putin just focuses on the nationalist electorate & pragmatism, Medvedev on the people which want changes.
People also such creatures that until their incomes are growing they will not be much against their authorities, freedom and democracy good things but you can't be fed only by it.
No one will send application for EU membership as minimum nearest 15-20 years because that useless for Russia and gave to sly Brussels lever of pressure on Russia. We will look like a plaintively mewing hungry cat and Brussels as hand that shakes the fish in front of our nose