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Thread: The founding and migration of I2a2b

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    Being an A1 with O'Driscoll related dna, I am trying to pursue that, but records are scarce and difficult to access from my rural southern USA location.
    I appreciate the difficulties. In view of what you were saying previously, you might find Stephen Oppenheimer's comments on the distribution of old I1b2 [now M26 I2a1] and old I1b [now L161 I2a2b-Isles] in Britain and Ireland interesting.

    In 'The Origins of the British' [2007], now considered well out-of-date by many who wouldn't know one end of a test-tube from the other, Oppenheimer says little about I1b [I2a2] in the West. However, he does say that it is 'very uncommon' but has, 'a similar age and distribution to I1b2 [now I2a1] in the western British isles'. This distribution, according to Oppenheimer, dates to the Mesolithic, and covers the Channel Islands, northern Wessex, south-west England, Wales and Ireland. There is no attempt to split the old I1b [I2a2] into the 'Isles' and 'Dinaric' types favoured by Nordtvedt, and the Mesolithic dating precedes Nordtvedt's Neolithic dating of the earliest Isles B clades.

    My view is that a percentage of the I2a2b in England and lowland Scotland comes from the Germanic incursions, but the bulk of I2a2b is ancient. I too have wondered if the oldest clades date back to the late Mesolithic and maybe a link to the narrowblade culture. However, I don't see any Welsh or Channel Islands distribution of I2a2b as Oppenheimer seems to. Sykes does not agree with Oppenheimer's dating of I2a2 in Britain, seeing it as more recent, hence the Anglo-Saxon possibility.

    I draw your attention to Oppenheimer's take on the distribution of I2a1 and I2a2 because of what you said re I2a2b-Isles A and the sea- trade route, Wessex and Ireland etc. Oppenheimer seems to link I2a1 in particular with the spread of cardial ware.

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    More on the copper mining: Another of Europe’s best-preserved copper mines has been discovered at Mount Gabriel in County Cork (about 15 km west of Skibbereen), which was worked for several centuries in the middle of the second millennium.[6] Mines in Cork and Kerry are believed to have produced as much as 370 tonnes of copper during the Bronze Age. As only about 0.2% of this can be accounted for in excavated bronze artifacts, it is surmised that Ireland was a major exporter of copper during this period.

    This one is right in the middle of Driscoll territory.

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    We do have some Isle of Man representation.

    on Ysearch:

    SNC8Q matches me 48/67, name Kinley
    N7FK5 matches me 46/67, name Kinley
    A9D2B matches me 46/67, name Kinley
    There is also a Kinley on Ancestry.com classified A1/A2, who might be one of these.

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    I am not really familiar with exact spread of I2a2-Isles branches... By looking at familytreedna maps of found samples it seems to me that there might be correlation between I2a2-Isles branches and spread of Megalithic cultures in UK and Brittany...


    is there correlation of I2a2-Isles with spreads of I1 or I2b1 in UK?

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    "Oppenheimer seems to link I2a1 in particular with the spread of cardial ware."

    Problem with that is the I2a1 goes back perhaps to a mesolithic arrival in Ireland and these potteries are neolithic.

    ------------------

    About the arrival of farming in UK: some suggest farming arrived first in Ireland with immigrants from the south and then spread to England more by diffusion than migration.

    If that were correct, it might explain some of our population distribution problems. Isles C met and adopted farming, e.g. became neolithic, and flourished, while Isles B was still clinging to a difficult mesolithic seacoast lifestyle and barely survived. This would give C a head start and so a bigger population with effect lasting to the present.

    Is there anything in this idea?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    "Oppenheimer seems to link I2a1 in particular with the spread of cardial ware."

    Problem with that is the I2a1 goes back perhaps to a mesolithic arrival in Ireland and these potteries are neolithic.

    ------------------

    About the arrival of farming in UK: some suggest farming arrived first in Ireland with immigrants from the south and then spread to England more by diffusion than migration.

    If that were correct, it might explain some of our population distribution problems. Isles C met and adopted farming, e.g. became neolithic, and flourished, while Isles B was still clinging to a difficult mesolithic seacoast lifestyle and barely survived. This would give C a head start and so a bigger population with effect lasting to the present.

    Is there anything in this idea?
    There might be something in the idea re subclade C. As Ken has hinted, maybe there are 2 distinct histories here- that of A/B and that of C/D. Tim Owen's idea that there could have been different 'waves' of Isles to Britain strikes me as possible. It is not beyond doubt that C and D were 'born' in Ireland. We need more data. There is enough C and D on the continent, relatively speaking, to challenge the idea that both were 'born' in Ireland in my view. There are D's in England with non-Irish surnames. Aiden has mentioned to me, a while ago, the English-leanings of subclade D. I am an example..

    Thanks for the info on Isle of Man members.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I am not really familiar with exact spread of I2a2-Isles branches... By looking at familytreedna maps of found samples it seems to me that there might be correlation between I2a2-Isles branches and spread of Megalithic cultures in UK and Brittany...


    is there correlation of I2a2-Isles with spreads of I1 or I2b1 in UK?
    I certainly think that there may be a connection with the earliest B subclades of I2a2b-Isles and Megaliths, but strictly in the north-west, far west and centre west groups you usefully draw our attention to as L161 I2a2b-Isles was likely founded on the north German plain. Maybe M26 I2a1 links to the southern Med exampes?

    The bulk of I2a2b is in Ireland but there is a 'decent' distribution in England and lowland Scotland [plus some continentals] for a tiny clade. The English and lowland Scots distribution covers areas that I1 and I2b1 are found, but I1 is a much younger clade. Bryan Sykes, for example, sees this British I2a2 as most likely brought to England and Scotland by the Anglo-Saxons and remains 'yet to be convinced by substantial dates' that I2a2 in Britain can date to Neolithic/Mesolithic. As you may have gathered, I think Tim Owen ['Genes of the Cruthin' blog] is correct in that L161 I2a2-Isles came from both recent and ancient 'waves' of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I certainly think that there may be a connection with the earliest B subclades of I2a2b-Isles and Megaliths, but strictly in the north-west, far west and centre west groups you usefully draw our attention to as L161 I2a2b-Isles was likely founded on the north German plain. Maybe M26 I2a1 links to the southern Med exampes?

    The bulk of I2a2b is in Ireland but there is a 'decent' distribution in England and lowland Scotland [plus some continentals] for a tiny clade. The English and lowland Scots distribution covers areas that I1 and I2b1 are found, but I1 is a much younger clade. Bryan Sykes, for example, sees this British I2a2 as most likely brought to England and Scotland by the Anglo-Saxons and remains 'yet to be convinced by substantial dates' that I2a2 in Britain can date to Neolithic/Mesolithic. As you may have gathered, I think Tim Owen ['Genes of the Cruthin' blog] is correct in that L161 I2a2-Isles came from both recent and ancient 'waves' of people.
    Oppenheimer suggests that the Anglo-Saxon genetic input was about 5% of the local population. If, as Sykes insists, I2a2 came with them and now constitutes about 2% of the local population, it is mathematically required that the incoming Anglo Saxons would have to have been about 40% I2a2. There is no indication at all in the Anglo Saxon source areas of anything like this. In fact, the reverse is true. There at the source, I2a2 may be very much less than 1%, perhaps 1% of 1%.

    Any and all later incoming waves would have diluted the I2a2 base, not reinforced it, because the same math applies to them.

    Therefore, I2a2b, virtually all of it, was here before them. In those invasions, maybe less than ten individuals total who were I2a2 and more likely, the number of those who survived combat, the difficulties of colonization, disease, and accident to procreate with the local women is, I think, zero.

    Unless I have got some fundamental misunderstanding of the math here (always possible), the idea that I2a2 was brought by the Anglo Saxons is utterly absurd - a "flat earth" level of absurd. Why this idea is still hanging around, I don't know.

    Tell me why I am wrong.
    Last edited by jdanel; 08-02-11 at 18:51.

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    I was planning on posting the following pictures sometime and this thread seems a good place as they have to do with pre-R1b Ireland. I was sparked to do so by the map entitled Megalithic Ireland which I believe is incorrect.

    These maps are taken from a paper derived from a survey done by the Ordnance Survey of Ireland and Professor Ruaidhri (Rory) De Valera. I lost the link to the paper, so I put a PDF of it on my site:
    http://ringofgullion.com/graphics/dna/Nuallain.pdf

    There are seven distinct epochs in prehistoric Ireland and only the last two are R1b related, so the other five tie into the introduction of the I clades into Ireland and this thread.


    I wonder how the four different types of Megaliths tie in with the discussion in this thread. There is controversy as to whether each style was introduced by a new people or by the evolution of the original group.
    Different I2a2b groups?

    What I think is interesting is that the artifacts of all but the Bell Beaker Peoples, are almost entirely in the northern half of the island if you take a line from the Shannon estuary on the west and connect it to the Boyne River on the east. Celtic mythology also speaks of the early Celts dividing the island into Eber's half and Heremon's half, along about the same line. So it seems likely that the influence for them came from Scotland and not directly from France or Spain.


    The following are the epochs and the rough dates for each.


    Mesolithic: about 6,000 - 4,000 BCE


    Neolithic: 4,000 - 2,000 BCE

    Court Tombs
    Passage Tombs
    Portal Tombs (Dolmens)
    Wedge Tombs

    Bell Beaker: 2,000 - about 500 BCE


    LaTene: about 500BCE

    Mesolithic


    Court Tombs (the oldest)


    Passage Graves (next oldest)


    Portal Tombs/Dolmens (next oldest)


    Wedge Tombs (youngest and overlapped the early Bronze age)


    Bell Beaker cist graves


    LaTene Celts


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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    Oppenheimer suggests that the Anglo-Saxon genetic input was about 5% of the local population. If, as Sykes insists, I2a2 came with them and now constitutes about 2% of the local population, it is mathematically required that the incoming Anglo Saxons would have to have been about 40% I2a2. There is no indication at all in the Anglo Saxon source areas of anything like this. In fact, the reverse is true. There at the source, I2a2 may be very much less than 1%, perhaps 1% of 1%.

    Any and all later incoming waves would have diluted the I2a2 base, not reinforced it, because the same math applies to them.

    Therefore, I2a2b, virtually all of it, was here before them. In those invasions, maybe less than ten individuals total who were I2a2 and more likely, the number of those who survived combat, the difficulties of colonization, disease, and accident to procreate with the local women is, I think, zero.

    Unless I have got some fundamental misunderstanding of the math here (always possible), the idea that I2a2 was brought by the Anglo Saxons is utterly absurd - a "flat earth" level of absurd. Why this idea is still hanging around, I don't know.

    Tell me why I am wrong.
    I'll tell you why you are wrong, if you like. Though, I must say that there is no need for the bold print.

    To begin with, Oppenheimer's 5% estimate for Anglo-Saxon contributions to the gene-pool have been hotly contested as a gross under-estimation. Evidence from Capelli et al, Weale et al and others suggest that the Anglo-Saxons made a considerably larger impact. Others who line up against Oppenheimer's 5% claim are Sir Walter Bodmer who has recently conducted a systematic genetic survey of the British people, and Ken Nordtvedt.

    Interestingly too, Oppenheimer based a lot of his work on that of Peter Forster. I have had email contact with Forster recently [his company reanalysed my Ydna results] and he agrees with Sykes that Anglo Saxons are a possibility for 'carriers' of I2a2b to Britain. Anatole Klyosov is of the same view, though he agrees with Tim Owen that most came before the advent of the Anglo-Saxons. Recently too, Jean Manco in The Peopling of Europe suggested that Anglo-Saxons may have carried I2a2b to Britain from Germany along with earlier Celts.

    To reiterate my view; a percentage of the English and lowland Scots I2a2b is likely to have arrived with the Anglo-Saxons. There is evidence of a continental, mainly German presence for I2a2b, and enough serious scientists like Sykes and Forster consider it less than a 'Flat Earth' idea that Anglo-Saxons carried I2a2. Sykes has said so since the beginning of Oxford Ancestors, when I2a2 was I1b.

    The bulk of I2a2b in Britain seems more ancient, and as Tim Owen says may be connected with pre-Gaelic tribes in the Irish context.

    In my opinion, it is Oppenheimer who grossly under-estimates Anglo-Saxon contributions, and you have taken his figure of 5% as the 'math' to work from. Oppenheimer's 5% is truly 'utterly absurd'. Sir Walter Bodmer [in Robin McKie's The Face of Britain, 2006] estimated that Northumberland and Durham were 77% Anglo-Saxon; Sussex and Kent were 71% Anglo-Saxon; Cumbria was 56% Anglo-Saxon; Oxfordshire was 49% Anglo-Saxon etc. These results indicate that 5% is the real 'Flat Earth' theory.

    Any questions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I'll tell you why you are wrong, if you like. Though, I must say that there is no need for the bold print.

    To begin with, Oppenheimer's 5% estimate for Anglo-Saxon contributions to the gene-pool have been hotly contested as a gross under-estimation. Evidence from Capelli et al, Weale et al and others suggest that the Anglo-Saxons made a considerably larger impact. Others who line up against Oppenheimer's 5% claim are Sir Walter Bodmer who has recently conducted a systematic genetic survey of the British people, and Ken Nordtvedt.

    Interestingly too, Oppenheimer based a lot of his work on that of Peter Forster. I have had email contact with Forster recently [his company reanalysed my Ydna results] and he agrees with Sykes that Anglo Saxons are a possibility for 'carriers' of I2a2b to Britain. Anatole Klyosov is of the same view, though he agrees with Tim Owen that most came before the advent of the Anglo-Saxons. Recently too, Jean Manco in The Peopling of Europe suggested that Anglo-Saxons may have carried I2a2b to Britain from Germany along with earlier Celts.

    To reiterate my view; a percentage of the English and lowland Scots I2a2b is likely to have arrived with the Anglo-Saxons. There is evidence of a continental, mainly German presence for I2a2b, and enough serious scientists like Sykes and Forster consider it less than a 'Flat Earth' idea that Anglo-Saxons carried I2a2. Sykes has said so since the beginning of Oxford Ancestors, when I2a2 was I1b.

    The bulk of I2a2b in Britain seems more ancient, and as Tim Owen says may be connected with pre-Gaelic tribes in the Irish context.

    In my opinion, it is Oppenheimer who grossly under-estimates Anglo-Saxon contributions, and you have taken his figure of 5% as the 'math' to work from. Oppenheimer's 5% is truly 'utterly absurd'. Sir Walter Bodmer [in Robin McKie's The Face of Britain, 2006] estimated that Northumberland and Durham were 77% Anglo-Saxon; Sussex and Kent were 71% Anglo-Saxon; Cumbria was 56% Anglo-Saxon; Oxfordshire was 49% Anglo-Saxon etc. These results indicate that 5% is the real 'Flat Earth' theory.

    Any questions?
    Now we are getting somewhere. We are in agreement that "the bulk" is more ancient.

    The question is what amount is that bulk. Lets say we have a pre-existing population with a specific (but unknown) percentage of I2a2. The Anglo-Saxons invade. If their percentage of I2a2 was the same, then the percentage in the post-invasion population would not change. If invaders percentage was more then the post invasion population would be higher and vv.

    What is the percentage of I2a2 in the source lands? Almost none. 1% of 1%? And this resulted because almost all the I2a2 from the source areas went selectively with the invading army? No?, so where are they?

    Are these English areas high in Saxon not also relatively low in I2a2?

    OK, so the I2a2 came with the Anglo-Saxons and then, what, selectively dissociated themselves from the Saxons and took off for Ireland leaving England lower in I2a2, producing the "Irish tilt" mentioned by KN?

    more math:

    If:
    Ireland is 2% and that is representative of the whole population including pre-invasion England,
    and
    post-invasion England is 1% (Irish tilt)
    and
    the Dark Horror was 50% replacement,
    then
    the math still requires a 0% content in the invaders.

    Maybe the 5% is "flat earth", but I still get zero I2a2b invaders with 50%. Zero or very near to it.

    So the bulk = ~99% and the rest are outliers of some kind.

    I think I will hang on to the "absurd", but the bold type was really over the top. The basic cause of the absurdity is the lack of an appropriate source population, whether Anglo Saxon or any other.
    Last edited by jdanel; 08-02-11 at 22:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    Now we are getting somewhere. We are in agreement that "the bulk" is more ancient.

    The question is what amount is that bulk. Lets say we have a pre-existing population with a specific (but unknown) percentage of I2a2. The Anglo-Saxons invade. If their percentage of I2a2 was the same, then the percentage in the post-invasion population would not change. If invaders percentage was more then the post invasion population would be higher and vv.

    What is the percentage of I2a2 in the source lands? Almost none. 1% of 1%? And this resulted because almost all the I2a2 from the source areas went selectively with the invading army? No?, so where are they?

    Are these English areas high in Saxon not also relatively low in I2a2?

    OK, so the I2a2 came with the Anglo-Saxons and then, what, selectively dissociated themselves from the Saxons and took off for Ireland leaving England lower in I2a2, producing the "Irish tilt" mentioned by KN?

    more math:

    If:
    Ireland is 2% and that is representative of the whole population including pre-invasion England,
    and
    post-invasion England is 1% (Irish tilt)
    and
    the Dark Horror was 50% replacement,
    then
    the math still requires a 0% content in the invaders.

    Maybe the 5% is "flat earth", but I still get zero I2a2b invaders with 50%. Zero or very near to it.

    So the bulk = ~99% and the rest are outliers of some kind.

    I think I will hang on to the "absurd", but the bold type was really over the top. The basic cause of the absurdity is the lack of an appropriate source population, whether Anglo Saxon or any other.
    I suspect that there is more I2a2 'out there' than current estimates show. Remember that Forster tested my I2a2b subclade D2 signal recently on 43 markers and got Germany as a hotspot. I recall too, Bryan Sykes replying to an email of mine and saying that old I1b signatures cropped up fairly frequently in Orkney and Norway. Now, that contradicts the stats elsewhere. Maybe there was more I2a2 in northern Germany then than there is now, and maybe the current estimates of I2a2 in Britain are too low?

    Re the bulk being ancient- I have always said that. That is in line with Tim Owen's 'Genes of the Cruthin', where a percentage is thought to be Germanic and the bulk pre-Gaelic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I suspect that there is more I2a2 'out there' than current estimates show. Remember that Forster tested my I2a2b subclade D2 signal recently on 43 markers and got Germany as a hotspot. I recall too, Bryan Sykes replying to an email of mine and saying that old I1b signatures cropped up fairly frequently in Orkney and Norway. Now, that contradicts the stats elsewhere. Maybe there was more I2a2 in northern Germany then than there is now, and maybe the current estimates of I2a2 in Britain are too low?

    Re the bulk being ancient- I have always said that. That is in line with Tim Owen's 'Genes of the Cruthin', where a percentage is thought to be Germanic and the bulk pre-Gaelic.
    "I suspect that there is more I2a2 'out there' than current estimates show"

    "Maybe there was more I2a2 in northern Germany then than there is now, and maybe the current estimates of I2a2 in Britain are too low?"

    These are certainly possible. We are dealing with the statistics of very small numbers where the "nugget effect" or the lack thereof is a very serious problem and the next sample through the door can change everything. It has not been all that long since the presence of the continentals was thought odd. Now that group is well established. Who can even imagine what future data will show? Albanians, maybe.

    But to change the algebra, it would take a really massive discovery of such and that seems quite unlikely.

    With the data that now exists, any Gaelic or later "waves" are so tiny as to fall well within the margin of error for the sampling, processing, and recording.

    That being the case, this "wave theory" should join the "ether theory" in the dustbin - interesting ideas in their time, but now shown to be entirely wrong unless rescued by possible, but unlikely, future discoveries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    "I suspect that there is more I2a2 'out there' than current estimates show"

    "Maybe there was more I2a2 in northern Germany then than there is now, and maybe the current estimates of I2a2 in Britain are too low?"

    These are certainly possible. We are dealing with the statistics of very small numbers where the "nugget effect" or the lack thereof is a very serious problem and the next sample through the door can change everything. It has not been all that long since the presence of the continentals was thought odd. Now that group is well established. Who can even imagine what future data will show? Albanians, maybe.

    But to change the algebra, it would take a really massive discovery of such and that seems quite unlikely.

    With the data that now exists, any Gaelic or later "waves" are so tiny as to fall well within the margin of error for the sampling, processing, and recording.

    That being the case, this "wave theory" should join the "ether theory" in the dustbin - interesting ideas in their time, but now shown to be entirely wrong unless rescued by possible, but unlikely, future discoveries.
    I don't know if you are joking about the Albanians, but Ken does indeed have three 'outlier' Albanian I2a2b-Isles haplotypes alongside the Germans, Belgians, French etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eochaidh View Post
    I was planning on posting the following pictures sometime and this thread seems a good place as they have to do with pre-R1b Ireland. I was sparked to do so by the map entitled Megalithic Ireland which I believe is incorrect.

    These maps are taken from a paper derived from a survey done by the Ordnance Survey of Ireland and Professor Ruaidhri (Rory) De Valera. I lost the link to the paper, so I put a PDF of it on my site: http://ringofgullion.com/graphics/dna/Nuallain.pdf

    There are seven distinct epochs in prehistoric Ireland and only the last two are R1b related, so the other five tie into the introduction of the I clades into Ireland and this thread.

    I wonder how the four different types of Megaliths tie in with the discussion in this thread. There is controversy as to whether each style was introduced by a new people or by the evolution of the original group. Different I2a2b groups?

    What I think is interesting is that the artifacts of all but the Bell Beaker Peoples, are almost entirely in the northern half of the island if you take a line from the Shannon estuary on the west and connect it to the Boyne River on the east. Celtic mythology also speaks of the early Celts dividing the island into Eber's half and Heremon's half, along about the same line. So it seems likely that the influence for them came from Scotland and not directly from France or Spain.

    The following are the epochs and the rough dates for each.

    Mesolithic: about 6,000 - 4,000 BCE

    Neolithic: 4,000 - 2,000 BCE
    Court Tombs
    Passage Tombs
    Portal Tombs (Dolmens)
    Wedge Tombs

    Bell Beaker: 2,000 - about 500 BCE

    LaTene: about 500BCE

    Mesolithic


    Court Tombs (the oldest)


    Passage Graves (next oldest)


    Portal Tombs/Dolmens (next oldest)


    Wedge Tombs (youngest and overlapped the early Bronze age)


    Bell Beaker cist graves


    LaTene Celts
    Thanks for this interesting contribution. Tim Owen ['Genes of the Cruthin' blog] has argued that the oldest subclade of I2a2b-Isles, clade B [B1, B2] probably entered Britain from Germany, via Doggerland, in the late Mesolithic, entering Scotland first before moving on to Ireland. He has conjectured that there may be a link to the Narrowblade culture which replaced the Broadblade culture. Maybe this is your 'from Scotland' influence.

    There were other pre-R1b I haplogroup clades supposedly around in the age of Megaliths. According to Nordtvedt, it appears that M26 I2a1 arrived first from Iberia. Other 'rivals' to I2a2b-Isles are I*and I2b1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    I don't know if you are joking about the Albanians, but Ken does indeed have three 'outlier' Albanian I2a2b-Isles haplotypes alongside the Germans, Belgians, French etc.
    I had read about the Albanians. I put that little blue dotted arrow at the mouth of the Danube on the Grandfathers' Path map (message 6 back on page 1 of this thread) just for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

    Fomor might be corruption of Gomer ...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer

    this relation of potentially I2a2-Isles Fomorians with Gomer makes sense as modern Germans do correlate with spread of haplogroup I, namely I1 and I2b
    .....

    Gomer island in Cappadocia in Asia minor and north of Black sea are today I2a2 areas...



    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...sworld_map.png
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Noahsworld_map.jpg





    The medieval myth of Partholon says that his followers were the first to invade Ireland after the flood, but the Fomorians were already there: Seathrún Céitinn reports a tradition that the Fomorians, led by Cíocal, had arrived two hundred years earlier and lived on fish and fowl until Partholon came, bringing the plough and oxen. Partholon defeated Cíocal in the Battle of Magh Ithe, but all his people later died of plague.
    Then came Nemed and his followers. Ireland is said to have been empty for thirty years following the death of Partholon's people, but Nemed and his followers encountered the Fomorians when they arrived. At this point Céitinn reports another tradition that the Fomorians were seafarers from Africa, descended from Noah's son Ham. Nemed defeated them in several battles, killing their leaders Gann (1) and Sengann (1) (note that there were two Fir Bolg kings of the same name), but two new Fomorian leaders arose: Conand son of Faebar, who lived in Conand's Tower on Tory Island, County Donegal, and Morc son of Dela (note that the first generation of the Fir Bolg were also said to be sons of Dela).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

    seafarers may be related to sea peoples...but it also can be about haplogroup E spread from Africa, also because they do origin from Noah's son Ham, while Gomer is son of Noah's son Japhet...
    ...
    seafarers from Africa could be Garamantes !!
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...8&postcount=86

    but this may more likely be about spread of I2a1 in UK...

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    My haplogroup is I2a2b. My father has a rare genetic disease called Hereditary hemochromatosis(HHC), which is caused by the C282Y mutation. HHC is present across Europe and prevalent in parts of Scandinavia. I believe my family was in Nance, France before 1066 and participated in the Norman invasion of England in 1066 and settled in Cornwall. Here is a message that I posted in the Nance family genealogy forum: I believe I found "The French Connection". I read in the Cornwall history that our ancestors were believed to have come to England from France with the Norman conquest in 1066. Then, after checking multiple genetic Y-DNA matches with the surname "LYON". I came to the conclusion that Nance and Lyon families have the same ancestor from France. The city of Nance, France and the city of Lyon, France are only 80 miles from each other! I'm going to try and trace the matching Lyon(s) bloodlines that we are genetically related to and see if that leads us to a common ancestor for both families....Chris Nance


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    It's very unlikely that anybody from Cornwall with the surname Nance has their surname derived from Nance, France. Nance (properly spelled nans) is Cornish for valley. Also, the Lyons you match with seem to be from Scotland... I'd guess that the derivation of their name is from the English word lion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    It's very unlikely that anybody from Cornwall with the surname Nance has their surname derived from Nance, France. Nance (properly spelled nans) is Cornish for valley. Also, the Lyons you match with seem to be from Scotland... I'd guess that the derivation of their name is from the English word lion.
    If you google "Lyon Family Crest and History" (I can't post links), you will see that the Lyon surname originates in the Norman settlement Lyons-la-Foret in France, before migrating to Scotland. They were granted lands by Duke William of Normandy for their assistance in the Battle of Hastings in 1066. Lyon and Nance bloodlines combine at some point. I'm tracing the Lyon men with Y-DNA matches to me to see how far back I can go. I'm anxiously awaiting my 37 marker test from FTDNA, I only have 12 markers now...Chris Nance

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    If you google "Lyon Family Crest and History" (I can't post links), you will see that the Lyon surname originates in the Norman settlement Lyons-la-Foret in France, before migrating to Scotland. They were granted lands by Duke William of Normandy for their assistance in the Battle of Hastings in 1066. Lyon and Nance bloodlines combine at some point. I'm tracing the Lyon men with Y-DNA matches to me to see how far back I can go. I'm anxiously awaiting my 37 marker test from FTDNA, I only have 12 markers now...Chris Nance
    One thing among many I don't like about House of Names is how it only gives one etymology. Ancestry is better:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancestry.com
    Scottish, English and French: from Old French, Middle English lion (Latin leo, genitive leonis), hence a nickname for a fierce or brave warrior, or a habitational name for someone living at a house distinguished by the sign of a lion.

    Scottish, English, French, and Dutch: habitational name from the city of Lyon in south central France (English name: Lyons), or from the smaller Lyons-la-Forêt in Eure, Normandy. The name of the former is recorded in the 1st century bc as Lugdunum and is from the name of a Celtic god Lug (or this as a personal name, from a word meaning ‘brightness’) + dunon ‘hill fort’.

    Scottish and English: from the name Leo(n) (from Latin leo ‘lion’, or the cognate Greek leon), borne by numerous early martyrs and thirteen popes.

    Irish: reduced Anglicized form of Gaelic Ó Laighin (see Lane 2).
    Besides, I can guarantee you that you won't find the Lyons to be your closest matches the more you test. Other Nances have already tested 67 markers... see ySearch IDs N8ZUX and GF7U2. They are pretty close to the Lyons (GD of 6 on 67), but even closer to other surnames, namely Grimes and Malone (GD of 0 to 2 on 37).

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    Thanks for your help in being an objective voice in my quest for family history. I noticed that Grimes and Malone are close. I'll have to examine it when my 37 marker comes in. I am the co-administrator of the Nance DNA project, so I can go ahead and check with those other Nances. Here is a theory, that I hope to prove with ancestry, but if not, I'll discover the true story someday. I believe the Lyon and Nance families were both Norman invaders in 1066.
    The Lyon family that we share ancestry with came to America from Scotland. The Lyon family story is more well known than Nance. The Lyon family were Normans at one time living in Lyons-de-Foret in Normandy France. They were granted huge tracts of land in Scotland for their help in the Battle of Hastings. Robert the Bruce is an example of one of these Lyon families. Yesterday, I traced the Lyon line that I matched genetically back to Scotland, but no further yet.
    In the Nance Register(this is available online as pdf), a letter written by Elijah Nance (Padstow, Cornwall) in 1856 says that the same thing happened with the Nance family in Padstow, Cornwall. He says the Nance family came from the city of Nantes in Normandy, France to Padstow, Cornwall, England in 1066 with the Norman Invasion with William the Conquerer. I propose, as Pete Nance did, that Nances are Normans, thus Scandinavian(perhaps Danish) in Origin. Here is a quote from the letter he wrote:
    AFTER THAT BATTLE (OF HASTINGS) DETACHMENTS OF THE ARMY WERE SENT INTO ALL PARTS OF ENGLAND TO TAKE AND CONFISCATE WHAT PROPERTY THEY THOUGHT FIT, AND GENERAL PRIDEAUX CAME TO PADSTOW, IN CORNWALL, AND MY FOREFATHER ESTABLISHED HIMSELF OF THE BARTON OF QUANDRADU, SO THAT THE NAME OF NANCE AND PRIDEAUX HAVE BEEN RESIDENTS AT PADSTOW FOR ABOUT SEVEN HUNDRED AND NINETY YEARS LAST PAST.....................
    NEARLY FORTY YEARS SINCE I WAS AT THE STEWARDS HOUSE OF THE ESQUIRE PRIDEAUX, THAT GENTLEMAN ASKED ME WHERE MY FAMILY CAME FROM, I TOLD HIM FROM NANTES, IN NORMANDY, AND THAT MY FAMILY WERE ADVENTURERS WITH THE PRIDEAUX FAMILY, HE SAID HE BELIEVED IT, FOR HE SO FREQUENTLY MET WITH THE NAME OF NANCE IN THE WRITINGS OF THE PRIDEAUX.
    BE IT REMEMBERED WITH YOU THAT WHEN THE NORMANS CAME TO
    ENGLAND THEY HAD BUT ONE NAME (A CHRISTIAN NAME), BUT THEY TOOK TO
    THEMSELVES A SURNAME, AND MY FOREFATHER, AS HE CAME FROM NANTES, IN NORMANDY, WROTE HIS NAME NANCE, AS I SUPPOSE, BEING A MILDER WAY OF PRONOUNCING THE NAME CORRECTLY(IN ENGLISH).

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    It is also possible that the Malone family in Ireland also came with the Norman invasion of Connacht, Ireland?
    The Norman invasion in Connacht, Ireland in 1175 was led by William de Burgh. The Malone name was first found in Connacht after that invasion. The name Grimes is of Norse-Viking pre 7th century origins, and the derivation is probably from the personal name "Grimr", which appears in the Olde Danish and Olde Swedish as "Grim". It does not appear in England until after the Norman invasion. Many of the Normans were Danes. Thus, the Nance, Grimes, Malone, and Lyon could all be of Norman ancestry.






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    1- names of different origins can be confused in an identical spelling (LYONS, JEKYLL, WIGAN, COHEN...)- it occurred several times for several surnames everywhere where foreign names was assimiliated to local names or autochtonal surnames assimilated to rulers foreign names - for Nance, the dominant opinion is that it is a genuine cornish name 'nans' (welsh 'nant' "valley", breton 'nant'/'ant' "furrow") BUT it could be some 'Nance' of other origin: the hardest is to prove it!!! for Lyons, it is very more evident: town or village name, "lions" (the animal), gaelic names and so on...
    2- I found - the only placename NANCE I found in France is in the Jura, not too far from LYONS, in the Rhône valley and the only NANS I found are in Franche-Comté - the Normandy village is LYONS-LA-FORÊT, not the big town of LYON, that surely never procured soldiers to William the Conqueror !?!
    3- Norvegians have very few Y-I2a2 ofr I know, Danes and some regions of Sweden (late immigrations of foreigners? see Vaesterbotten) have more - I know it is not a decisive point for some scattered families-
    Things are not always simple -
    have a good evening and hold on

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    The city of Nantes, in Normandy France, is where my the Nance family in England came from according to the letter I cited above from the Nance Register written by Elijah Nance (Padstow, Cornwall) in 1856. He said they came from Nantes, France in 1066. The name was spelled phonetically as NANS instead of Nantes from 1066 until the 1500's when my direct ancestor, John Nance Esquire(1533-1607), changed the spelling from NANS to NANCE, which the spelling has been ever since. John Nance Esquire was married to Margery Nance, maiden name Arundell of Trerice(1543-1610). Her father, Sir John Arundell (1495-1560), nicknamed "Tilbury Jack" (or Jack of Tilbury), was a commander of the English Royal Navy at the time of King Henry VIII and Edward VI and twice High Sheriff of Cornwall. I say this so that it can be noted that this is a documented historical fact. I appreciate the help you all have given me. The Family names that are similar to Nance genetically are LYON (not Lyons), GRIMES, and MALONE. If any of you know of others, I'd appreciate hearing them. Thanks, Chris Nance

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