Subclades of R1b in Wales

[Brennus]

Could anyone tell me what are the subclades of R1b1b2 in the welsh population? Any help would be very much appreciated!

Brennus

[Regulus]

"Vae Victis!"

Great name.
There are many that can help you with the DNA questions here. I just could not resist commenting.

[Maciamo]

It's almost all R1b-L21+, with a few occasional U152 or M167.

[Taranis]

It's almost all R1b-L21+, with a few occasional U152 or M167.

Maciamo, a question there: when do you think did L21 arrive in Britain?

[Brennus]

It's almost all R1b-L21+, with a few occasional U152 or M167.

Thanks for the help
Brennus

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, a question there: when do you think did L21 arrive in Britain?

With the arrival of the Bronze Age in Britain, between 4500 and 4000 years ago.

[Taranis]

With the arrival of the Bronze Age in Britain, between 4500 and 4000 years ago.

So, basically with the Beaker-Bell Culture (which arrived in Britain circa 2000 BC)?

[Melusine]

Although the original post was made by Brennus on 4-25-10, and because there is a more current posted today by Taranis, here is a link per Family Tree DNA that might be useful to all R1b's etc.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/default.aspx

If this url does not come up: Yahoo search ftdna welsh R1b1b2 haplogroup project and go to: Family Tree SNA r1b1b2 asteric.

There is a "pie" with percentages for Wales, and other countries ( including Turkery and Syria.

Melusine

[Taranis]

Although the original post was made by Brennus on 4-25-10, and because there is a more current posted today by Taranis, here is a link per Family Tree DNA that might be useful to all R1b's etc.

Actually, 4-25-10 is Brennus' joining date. He started the thread only yesterday.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/default.aspx

If this url does not come up: Yahoo search ftdna welsh R1b1b2 haplogroup project and go to: Family Tree SNA r1b1b2 asteric.

There is a "pie" with percentages for Wales, and other countries ( including Turkery and Syria.

Melusine

Heh, frankly, that website is hopelessly outdated in so far as it still claims that R1b originated in the Iberian Glacial Refuge, whereas we know it must be decisively younger.

[Brennus]

With the arrival of the Bronze Age in Britain, between 4500 and 4000 years ago.

Is it possible that there were later migrations of R1b-L21 during the Late Bronze age to the early Iron age?

Brennus

[Taranis]

Is it possible that there were later migrations of R1b-L21 during the Late Bronze age to the early Iron age?

Brennus

Hard to say. The problem is that R1b-L21 and it's sister clades (or brother clades, we're talking about Y-DNA here?! ) all have approximately the same age. So, as far as I currently understand it, the arrival of R1b(-P312?) coincides approximately with the arrival of the Beaker-Bell Culture in Western Europe. What in my opinion may have arrived in Britain with the iron age is R1b-U152.

[Melusine]

Taranis,

Why not post your updated information on R1b+. and supply us all with any new information references and sources.?

Melusine

[Taranis]

Well, primarily there is this paper by Myres et al. which visualized that R1b cannot have originated on the Iberian Penninsula. However, if you search, you'll find that this paper has been discussed in more than one thread on this forum.

Secondly, indirectly relevant is this thread, and the paper that is discussed in it, specifically about the absence of R1b in the Neolithic.

Third, it should be mentioned that the oldest 'ancient' find of R1b thus far is from the Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany, which belongs into the (Proto-Celtic?) Urnfield Culture.

[Brennus]

Well, primarily there is t by Myres et al.
Third, it should be mentioned that the oldest 'ancient' find of R1b thus far is from the Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany, which belongs into the (Proto-Celtic?) Urnfield Culture.

So it's possible that R1b entered britian during the late Bronze age.
Has anyone completed a Y-DNA test on Beaker remains in the Uk,e.g the Amesbury archer?
Brennus

[Taranis]

So it's possible that R1b entered britian during the late Bronze age.
Has anyone completed a Y-DNA test on Beaker remains in the Uk,e.g the Amesbury archer?
Brennus

Well, unfortunately, to my knowledge there's been no paper on Beaker Y-DNA yet. It would be good to have Beaker samples in general to clarify things.

[Maciamo]

Is it possible that there were later migrations of R1b-L21 during the Late Bronze age to the early Iron age?

Brennus

It's possible, of course, as L21 is also well established on the continent, but I doubt it had a significant effect on the population structure.

The late Bronze/early Iron Age would correspond to the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures in Central Europe. There is archaeological evidence that these cultures influenced Britain, and there is undeniable evidence that La Tène-related tribes, such as the Atrebates or Parisii migrated to England and probably Ireland too (the Menapii). I think they and the later Roman invaders are responsible for the presence of R1b-S28 (a.k.a. U152) in the British Isles. The highest percentage of S28/U152 in the UK is around Kent, Sussex, Hampshire and Wiltshire, where the Atrebates (a Belgic tribe) settled, and where Romans had a fairly strong presence too in terms of villa (i.e. country estates built for the upper class) as opposed to purely military settlements. Haplogroup J2, which peaks in Central Italy in Western Europe, also happens to be strongest along the southern coast of England (except Cornwall, Devon and Dorset).

[Maciamo]

So, basically with the Beaker-Bell Culture (which arrived in Britain circa 2000 BC)?

The Bronze Age would indeed have been introduced to Britain during the Bell-Beaker period. However it is entirely possible that a wider scale migration took place from the contemporary Central European Unetice culture or its successors. It's a troublesome period because the Bell-Beaker and Unetice cultures juxtapose each others. The extend of the Bell-Beaker culture does match later Celtic-speaking areas, but archaeologically they do not seem to be Celtic or even truly Indo-European. I think it represents the transition period during the Indo-European/Celtic invasion of Western Europe, but it still isn't clear how fast this happened and what exactly happened (peaceful conquest or widespread massacres ?).

[Regulus]

The Bronze Age would indeed have been introduced to Britain during the Bell-Beaker period. However it is entirely possible that a wider scale migration took place from the contemporary Central European Unetice culture or its successors. It's a troublesome period because the Bell-Beaker and Unetice cultures juxtapose each others. The extend of the Bell-Beaker culture does match later Celtic-speaking areas, but archaeologically they do not seem to be Celtic or even truly Indo-European. I think it represents the transition period during the Indo-European/Celtic invasion of Western Europe, but it still isn't clear how fast this happened and what exactly happened (peaceful conquest or widespread massacres ?).

Agreed and well said. There is not even a true consensus on which way the Bell Beakers moved. Some have them West to east and some the opposite.
Although most of the regions settled by them were also later also settled by those who were clearly IE, there indeed were areas in which Bell Beakers settled that did not see any clearly defined IE settlements later.

[Brennus]

The Bronze Age would indeed have been introduced to Britain during the Bell-Beaker period. However it is entirely possible that a wider scale migration took place from the contemporary Central European Unetice culture or its successors. It's a troublesome period because the Bell-Beaker and Unetice cultures juxtapose each others. The extend of the Bell-Beaker culture does match later Celtic-speaking areas, but archaeologically they do not seem to be Celtic or even truly Indo-European. I think it represents the transition period during the Indo-European/Celtic invasion of Western Europe, but it still isn't clear how fast this happened and what exactly happened (peaceful conquest or widespread massacres ?).

Wasn't there continuity from the Unetice culture to the Urnfield culture?

[Brennus]

there indeed were areas in which Bell Beakers settled that did not see any clearly defined IE settlements later.

Where were these areas?

[Regulus]

Where were these areas?

I will have to dig that up later tonight. I have a source with a map somewhere. You are definitely right to question it, though, since almost every source that I have ever read about movements of proto-Celts will include both cultures and they seem to be very intertwined in the accounts. Looking back at the too-brief way that I wrote it, I would probably have questioned it also. I think that I can recall some isolated parts of the Iberian Peninsula, Scotland, Ireland, etc. Whatever the regions were, it was very little. I think that I should also better define it by clarifying that it meant IE people as far as initial settlements. After a period of time, all of these areas wound up with appreciable IE admixture as peoples/groups moved around. I am not sure even if the final word on whether or not origin of the Picts of Scotland got sorted out.

Thanks for the check.

[Taranis]

I will have to dig that up later tonight. I have a source with a map somewhere. You are definitely right to question it, though, since almost every source that I have ever read about movements of proto-Celts will include both cultures and they seem to be very intertwined in the accounts. Looking back at the too-brief way that I wrote it, I would probably have questioned it also. I think that I can recall some isolated parts of the Iberian Peninsula, Scotland, Ireland, etc. Whatever the regions were, it was very little. I think that I should also better define it by clarifying that it meant IE people as far as initial settlements. After a period of time, all of these areas wound up with appreciable IE admixture as peoples/groups moved around. I am not sure even if the final word on whether or not origin of the Picts of Scotland got sorted out.

Well, the only non-Indo-European languages in the former Beaker-Bell area are these (for the sake of completeness, Pictish was probably a P-Celtic language, related with Brythonic and Gaulish, or just a dialect of Brythonic):
- Aquitanian, which probably was spoken in the area between the Garonne and the Pyrenees, and which may have been the same as Old Basque (or a related dialect).
- The Vascones, who were the ancestors of the Basques.
- Iberian, spoken from the Roussillon in the north (as well as throughout the largest part of the Pyrenees) to western Iberia in the south. May possibly have been related with Basque/Aquitanian, but this is disputed.
- The undeciphered language from the inscriptions from southwest of the Iberian penninsula (Algarve and western Andalusia), ostensibly called "Tartessian", even though a connection with the actual Tartessians is spurious.
- The Etruscans in Italy, which according to some evidence, may have arrived from Anatolia.
- The Raetians in the Alps, who spoke a language which was probably related with Etruscan.

[Regulus]

Well, the only non-Indo-European languages in the former Beaker-Bell area are these (for the sake of completeness, Pictish was probably a P-Celtic language, related with Brythonic and Gaulish, or just a dialect of Brythonic):
- Aquitanian, which probably was spoken in the area between the Garonne and the Pyrenees, and which may have been the same as Old Basque (or a related dialect).
- The Vascones, who were the ancestors of the Basques.
- Iberian, spoken from the Roussillon in the north (as well as throughout the largest part of the Pyrenees) to western Iberia in the south. May possibly have been related with Basque/Aquitanian, but this is disputed.
- The undeciphered language from the inscriptions from southwest of the Iberian penninsula (Algarve and western Andalusia), ostensibly called "Tartessian", even though a connection with the actual Tartessians is spurious.
- The Etruscans in Italy, which according to some evidence, may have arrived from Anatolia.
- The Raetians in the Alps, who spoke a language which was probably related with Etruscan.

Two quick questions -

Did all of the areas that you mentioned become settled by Bell Beakers? I was speaking particularly about areas in which there had been evidence of Bell Beakers and later either settled directly by IE peoples or not. You may have a newer map or source that has more areas of settlement.

Are you referring to the P and Q Celtic as non-Indo-European? Forgive me if I misunderstood that part.


I have to find my map on the Bell Beakers or I am going to go crazy looking for another one.
Not to go off-topic, but I personally find the Etruscans to quite interesting. I once got to see a great exhibit about 20 years ago when it toured here.

[Taranis]

Two quick questions -

Did all of the areas that you mentioned become settled by Bell Beakers? I was speaking particularly about areas in which there had been evidence of Bell Beakers and later either settled directly by IE peoples or not. You may have a newer map or source that has more areas of settlement.

Are you referring to the P and Q Celtic as non-Indo-European? Forgive me if I misunderstood that part.


I have to find my map on the Bell Beakers or I am going to go crazy looking for another one.
Not to go off-topic, but I personally find the Etruscans to quite interesting. I once got to see a great exhibit about 20 years ago when it toured here.

All languages I mentioned are found within an area that was formerly part of the Bell-Beaker culture.

I explicitly excluded any Indo-European language from the list above.

[Regulus]

All languages I mentioned are found within an area that was formerly part of the Bell-Beaker culture.

I explicitly excluded any Indo-European language from the list above.

OK, I had understood that Bell Beaker finds, although widespread, were not in all of those areas. I would be willing to defer in this case. You may have more updated evidence.

For the Brythonic, Goidelic, etc., I would have to strongly take the opposite position. I can't see how very slight changes put them out of the IE range. To continue with that pattern, we would have to throw out others such as German. It too had much non-IE influence. Indeed I would say that it had more. I have never seen any source that puts P and Q outside of an IE classification