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Thread: Languages, haplogroups, and tribes

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    *Sardinian (Nuoro region) gorru "red"/ basque gorri « red »
    Serbian "gori" = is burning

    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    [FONT=Arial]*Basque ibar « river mouth, valley » :
    ==>Spain : Ebro river, Iberian people
    There is river Ibar in Serbia, and river Tiber in Italy
    name of Tiber is suggested to be perhaps related to Celtic root *dubron" - water
    btw. Iberian would be about river people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    But also in Dutch: Wenden .. Means to move in a different direction.
    that may be related to word "wind" in english, as wind moves in all direction

    Wenden/Wends was used by Germanic people for Slavs, I think it is still used in Germany for Slavic Sorbs...
    Slavic people are according to Jordanes from race of Veneti
    Venti = wind gods in Roman mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi)

    and we do find Veneti named tribes in very distant areas - in Britanny (Celtic Veneti), around Vistula (Vistula Veneti), on north shores of Adriatic (Adriatic Veneti), in Paphlagonia (Eneti), above Black sea (Antes and Sarmatian Venedi)

    btw. in Serbian to move in all direction(for people) or to walk around - "skitati"
    which resembles tribal name Scythian

    so, this maybe about how haplogroups R1b and I1 saw R1a and I2 people - ones who move around, or in all direction...
    e.g. in Roman writings, Germania was about area where people settled in houses, Sarmatia was about area where people lived nomad style of life...

    e.g. Tacitus about Vistula Veneti
    The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways; their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini [Germanic-speakers north of Dacia] and the Fenni [Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers of Finland and the eastern Baltic]. Nevertheless, they are to be classed as Germani, for they have settled houses, carry shields and are fond of travelling fast on foot; in all these respects they differ from the Sarmatians, who live in wagons or on horseback.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    Serbian and general South Slavic word for mountain-planina.
    Etimology- root *pel-. as words plonina in polish and polonina in ukraine meaning something what is full ( not empty).
    The same root as nordic Fjell in the same meaning-mountain.
    that might be I haplogroup word...

    btw. PIE *plu- (numerous) hence e.g. plural / plenty /full in english
    from that in Serbian
    plodno - fruitfull,
    Slavic polno / Serbian puno,- plenty /full

    but in Serbian and perhaps other Slavic languages 'pl' has also connotation to water and water related motion
    plavo - blue
    ploviti - to flow,
    plakati - to cry
    pljuvati - to spit,
    poplava/(po)plaviti - flood/to flood

    also to fluent motion
    plesati- to dance, plivati -to swim, pletenje - knitting

    and there is also influence of Illyrian
    Illyrian plo- (strong, powerful)
    http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/illy.htm

    Serbian ploca- big flat stone (e.g made of concrete)


    In other slavic languages word for mountain is Gora or Hora.
    Gora is used in Serbian as well but is somewhat arhaic...
    it is derived from word 'gore' - up
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 22-02-11 at 02:14. Reason: 2 typos corrected

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    There is river Ibar in Serbia, and river Tiber in Italy
    name of Tiber is suggested to be perhaps related to Celtic root *dubron" - water
    btw. Iberian would be about river people?
    It is a strong reason, why I said to you "go read something about illyrians".

    Do you know how was called Ibar in the ancient times???

    And do you know two other countries where Ibar flow??? It is nmot only Serbia!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I can see the Horse connection between Slavic and Latin/Romans.

    Caballio-Kobyła (ł = w in english)
    cabal-koval (black smith)
    quus - kłus, kłusak (read kwus) (trot - fast horse walk, or special horse that runs only this way.)

    All together gives strong indoeuropean roots.

    Where does the english horse come from then?
    The English word "horse" is somewhat the same as the old Dutch word "ros" for a horse.

  4. #29
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    List of serbian and slavic words with non-indoeuropeans roots (Possible I haplogroup language words)

    kamen, kam- stone, rock
    zemlja- ground, soil
    vatra- fire
    reka- river (Baskian word arreca)
    šuma- forest, wood
    riba- fish
    žaba- frog
    vlasi-hair
    telo-body
    mač-sword (from Germanic substrate)
    granica- frontier, border (from Germanic substrate)
    led-ice
    šljiva- plum (from Germanic substrate-sleuwe,sloe)
    hrast- oak , sacred tree of old Slavs, today known among Serbs as Christmass evening tree- Badnjak

    It is obvious that common words for hunter gatherers and their economy were preserved in new languages.

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    vatra- fire
    Albanian word, borowing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    Albanian word, borowing.
    word for fire is very very basic word and is in tribes for very very long time... people do not get it from neighbors in recent history...

    "vatra" is word that I could in google translate find only in serbo-croat
    google translate doesnot give any "vatra" like word for translation of english "fire" into Albanian... it does give Zjarr which is loan word from Slavic žar/požár into Albanian...

    what exactly is Albanian word that you relate word "vatra" to, and what exactly is its meaning?

    closest match to 'vatra' that I could find is:
    Avestan - "âtre-"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages

    Avestan (pronounced /əˈvɛstən/[1]) is an East Iranian language known only from its use as the language of Zoroastrian scripture, i.e. the Avesta, from which it derives its name. The Yaz culture[2] has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of early East Iranian culture as described in the Avesta. Its status as a sacred language has ensured its continuing use for new compositions long after the language had ceased to be a living language.
    ...
    Avestan, which is associated with northeastern Iran and Old Persian, which belongs to the southwest, plus Gathic or the Old Avestan (language of the Gathas, the Hymns of Zarathushtra - 2nd millennium BC) are the only languages (of what must have been a great variety) to have left written traces; they together constitute what is called the Old Iranian Languages.[3][f 1] The Old Iranian language group is a branch of the Indo-Iranian language group, which is in turn a branch of the Indo-European language group.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan_language

    Yaziges are Sarmatians
    this ofcourse doesnot necesserily indicate that Serbs and Croats are Sarmatians..
    if I look at other Avestan words in short list given on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages I do not really find too many words alike to Serbo-Croat....

    but 'vatra' is interesting link, as it is not present in other Slavic languages... nor in iranian languages other than Avestan...

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    what exactly is Albanian word that you relate word "vatra" to, and what exactly is its meaning?
    This is from albganian dictionary, which you have not in your bibliothec.
    VATËR f. sh.
    1. Vendi rrëzë oxhakut, pak si i thelluar, i shtruar me rrasa guri, me pllaka etj., ku ndizet zjarri. Vatra e zjarrit. Rri pranë vatrës. Mblidhemi rreth vatrës. U ul në krye
    të vatrës.
    2. Pjesa e poshtme e furrës, e farkës; e sobës etj., ku ndizen e digjen drutë, qymyri etj. Vatra e furrës (e farkës).
    3. Hapësirë fare e vogël, vend i ngushtë sa për të ndezur zjarr; lehe, vulla. Një vatër vend. Kishte mbjellë një vatër qepë.
    4. fig. Shtëpia ku kemi lindur e jemi rritur, ku banon familja a ku kanë jetuar të parët tanë brez pas brezi; familja; kryes. sh. vendi ku kemi lindur e jetojmë, vendlindja.
    Vatër e dashur (e shtrenjtë). Vatra atërore (prindërore). Vatra e të parëve ( e stërgjyshërve).Vëllezër të një vatre vëllezër që kanë lindur e janë rritur në një shtëpi.
    Mik vatre mik i afërt, mik i shtëpisë. Në çdo vatër. Mbeti pa vatër. Njeri pa strehë e pa vatër. Më merr malli për vatrën time. I ra fatkeqësia në vatër. Mbrojmë
    vatrat tona. Lënë vatrat e tyre. Armiku na shkeli (na shkatërroi) vatrat tona.
    5. fig. Vendi ku lind e zhvillohet diçka, vendi prej nga vjen a përhapet diçka, burimi i diçkaje; vendi a pika që tërheq vëmendjen më të madhe; qendra e një
    veprimtarie a e diçkaje tjetër; çerdhe; djep. Vatër revolucionare (patriotike). Vatër e rëndësishme e luftës çlirimtare. Vatër shkencore (kulturore). Vatër kulture
    (përparimi). Vatër e edukimit revolucionar. Vatër e lëvizjes popullore. Vatra e kryengritjes (e qëndresës). Vatër agresioni (konflikti, lufte). Vatra e tërmetit (e
    vullkanit). Vatër epidemie (infektimi).
    6. fiziol. Qendra e një veprimtarie nervore. Vatra e nxitjes (e frenimit). Vatrat e sistemit nervor.
    7. mjek. Vendi në trupin e një njeriu ose të një kafshe të sëmurë, që është qendra e qelbëzimit, e mahisjes ose e një sëmundjeje tjetër. Vatër tuberkulozi. Vatër
    qelbi. Zbuloi (zhduku) vatrën e sëmundjes.
    8. fiz., opt. Pika ku kryqëzohen a priten rrezet e një tufe drite, pasi kjo të ketë përshkuar një thjerrzë ose të jetë kthyer nga një pasqyrë e përkulur. Vatër shembëllimi.
    Vatra e pasqyrës (e thjerrzës). Vatra e xhamit zmadhues.
    9. gjeom. Pikë e diametrit kryesor të elipsës etj., që ka veti të veçanta kundrejt pikave të lakores. Vatrat e elipsës. Largësia midis vatrave.
    10. përd. ndajf. (në bashkëvajtje me një). Shumë, tufë. Ka një vatër fëmijë. Është me një vatër kalamaj. Erdhën një vatër mysafirë (miq).
    * Në krye (në qoshe) të vatrës në vendin më të nderuar, në krye të vendit. I thau vatrën shih te THAJ. Është bërë gjysh në vatër shih te GJYSH,~I. I daltë hithra në
    vatër! mallk. shih te HIDH/ËR,~RA. Ishte me dy krënde në vatër shih te KRËND,~I. Jam një zjarr e një vatër me dikë shih te ZJARR,~I 2. Nxjerr ujë në vatër dikush
    a) s'lë gjë pa trazuar e pa prishur, s'lë dy gurë bashkë, është shumë i prapë (thuhet sidomos për fëmijët);
    b) është shumë i zoti. Lopa në mal, përsheshi në vatër (në xham) fj.u. shih te LOP/Ë,~A. Vatër kulture institucion që merret me organizimin e drejtimin e
    veprimtarisë kulturore e artistike në një fshat të vogël.

    In english:

    1. The place where you light fire.
    2. The low piece, (bottom) of the oven.
    3. Such a small place where you can do only light a small fire.
    4. Homeland, home where I was born, home where we live.

    These, four first meanings are originall, and others are related to science.

    Alexander Stipceviq, link the word vatra to the Illyrians.

    Vatra is not found among others slavs, only among slavs who settled in dinaric lands.

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    but that is not fire, that is place where you make fire, which is in english called 'hearth'
    google translate for 'hearth' gives "Vatră" in Romanian

    word has same form same meaning in Romanian and Albanian, but somewhat different meaning in Serbo-Croat and Avestan...

    Sarmatian Yaziges/Jaziges/ lazyges or Iasi origin from Avestan speaking area, and later lived in Pannonia but also in east Romania...

    The Iazyges first make their appearance along the Sea of Azov, known to the Ancient Greeks and Romans as the Maeotis. For this reason they are referred to by the geographer Ptolemy as the Iazyges Metanastae. From there, the Jazyges moved west along the shores of the Black Sea to what is now Moldova and the southwestern Ukraine.
    They served as allies of Mithradates VI Eupator, king of Pontus (in what is now North-Western Turkey), in his wars against the Romans (c. 88-84 BC). In 78-76 BC, the Romans sent a punitive expedition over the Danube in an attempt to overawe the Jazyges.
    The prime enemy of Rome along the lower Danube at this time were the Dacians. In 7 BC when the Dacian kingdom built up by Burebista began to collapse, the Romans took advantage and encouraged the Jazyges to settle in the Pannonian plain, between the Danube and the Tisza (Theiss) Rivers.
    They were divided into freemen and serfs (Sarmatae Limigantes). These serfs had a different manner of life and were probably an older settled population, enslaved by nomadic masters. They rose against them in 34 AD, but were repressed by foreign aid.
    The Romans wanted to finish off Dacia, but the Iazyges refused to cooperate. The Iazyges remained nomads, herding their cattle across what is now southern Romania every summer to water them along the Black Sea; a Roman conquest of Dacia would cut that route. The Roman emperor Domitian became so concerned with the Iazyges that he interrupted a campaign against Dacia to harass them and the Suebi, a Germanic tribe also dwelling along the Danube.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges


    if Avestan is primary source of the word, word could have taken different roads to Serbo-Croat where it preserves original meaning and Albanian and Romanian where it has somewhat altered meaning...

    there are few possible explanations:
    1) Serbs and Croats inherited word from Sarmatians (Yaziges origin from Avestan area)
    2) Albanians and Romanians lived much closer to each other in past
    3) all got word from Illyrians (whose relation to word is completely unknown), but original meaning is preserved in Serbo-Croat and distorted meaning in Romanian and Albanian

    it is possible that all explanations are correct... but note that we have no clue whether word existed in Illyrian, while we know that Jaziges archeologically origin from Avestan speaking area... so what is more probable source: Iaziges or Illyrian?

    now, if it is Iaziges
    how did word come into Albanian?
    are we sure that Albanian language has anything to do with Illyrian?
    few preserved Illyrian words are completely alien to Albanian (for match both word and meaning need to match which is not the case)

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    are we sure that Albanian language has anything to do with Illyrian?
    If you still dont understand the fact that now it is late to contradict illyrian conection to albanians, I will not respond to your spam posts.

    Illyrian origin of albanians, and illyrian origin of albanian language naow is proof.

    It must be the base of our debate. There are a lot of books which you must read firstly, before posting such childish posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    If you still dont understand the fact that now it is late to contradict illyrian conection to albanians, I will not respond to your spam posts.

    Illyrian origin of albanians, and illyrian origin of albanian language naow is proof.

    It must be the base of our debate. There are a lot of books which you must read firstly, before posting such childish posts.
    on contrary, I think that Albanians do genetically origin from Illyrians, not from all Illyrians though but from Illyrian tribes Scirtari and Uscans...but I am sure Albanian language is not match with few preserved Illyrian words....

    there can be many explanations for that

    knowing that

    I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
    The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
    The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...r=5&highlight=
    Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica

    it can be that later arrival of perhaps not populous but culturally and military dominant tribe gave Albanian language and culture... (Dardanians are candidate for such a tribe, but also Dacians as they did destroy Illyrians and probably set their ruling ellite)

    alternative explanation is that e.g. Illyria was only sparselly populated by Illyrians in Roman times when words are probably recorded... as it is known that Illyrians were destroyed by Dacians in their wars with Celts...

    thus, in fact Albanians can be Illyrians genetically, but Dacians linguistically
    as is also indicated by unexpectedly large shared vocabulary between Romania and Albania (including word "vatra" with meaning 'hearth')

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    Well, I agree. Some people and/or clans/tribes could easily switch to another language.
    Northern France and the southern part of Belgium switched into French.
    In Gallo-Roman France, a split occurred between north and south, assisted by incursions of Germanic-speaking Franks--whence the name "France"--into the north. Here, too, further dialectalization occurred throughout the Middle Ages, resulting in a multitude of speech forms such as Francien, Picard, Norman, Lorrain, and Walloon. Southern French, or Provençal, split into Languedocien, Auvergnat, and many other dialects. The dialect of Paris gradually became the national language, however, because of the political prestige of the capital and today is accepted as the model for the French language.
    Source:
    http://www.discoverfrance.net/France...language.shtml
    The Franks didn't speak French when they first arrived in France.
    My ancestors seem to have done the opposite.
    Lost their Celtic language in favor of the Germanic Dutch.
    Some Celtic clans moved into Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Southern England, and some kept their Celtic language variants.
    Funny part is, the Belgae are mentioned in Southern England.
    It seems that has been predicted by the "Asterix and Obelix" stories.

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    When did the Belgae arrive in Great Britain? Maybe with the Anglo-Saxons?
    The Belgae probably were Germanic tribes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    When did the Belgae arrive in Great Britain? Maybe with the Anglo-Saxons?
    The Belgae probably were Germanic tribes!
    The romans already talked about the Belgae livin in Britain, therefore they arrived way before the Anglo-Saxons

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    When did the Belgae arrive in Great Britain? Maybe with the Anglo-Saxons?
    The Belgae probably were Germanic tribes!
    First off, what Wilhelm said: they arrived in Britain before the Roman period.

    Regarding their ethnicity, in my opinion (and this is well backed up by typonomic evidence), the vast bulk of the Belgae were actually Celtic-speaking peoples, akin to the Gauls and the Britons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    List of serbian and slavic words with non-indoeuropeans roots (Possible I haplogroup language words)

    kamen, kam- stone, rock
    zemlja- ground, soil
    vatra- fire
    reka- river (Baskian word arreca)
    šuma- forest, wood
    riba- fish
    žaba- frog
    vlasi-hair
    telo-body
    mač-sword (from Germanic substrate)
    granica- frontier, border (from Germanic substrate)
    led-ice
    šljiva- plum (from Germanic substrate-sleuwe,sloe)
    hrast- oak , sacred tree of old Slavs, today known among Serbs as Christmass evening tree- Badnjak

    It is obvious that common words for hunter gatherers and their economy were preserved in new languages.

    Vatra is simmilar ancient Greek , in fact word Thracian means Vatra
    coal for fire Anthrax, ashes anthrak-ia, the burning coals Thrak-a, the stove the fireplace Thrak-a

    reka simmilar Greek ρεμα from ροη Flux of water (virb ρε-ω the move of liguid to go down)

    Tsuma is also simmilar cause we find it in Greece also but as a glade in the forest trees,
    a hole in the forest with Thisanos (bush) in mountain GR Makedonian Thessaly and Thracian Tzuma,
    Probably Thracian, siimilar Greek thisanos thassos, area full of bushes

    Mac is simmilar in Greek from Μαχαιρα, Μαχη mach = batle αιρω = raise
    Machera means the one that is raised in Battle

    Granitsa is very old cause we find it in Greek and minor asia as
    Granikos (Γρανικος = border river)

    seems like non slavic words are connecting Balkans

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    List of serbian and slavic words with non-indoeuropeans roots (Possible I haplogroup language words)

    vlasi-hair

    mač-sword (from Germanic substrate)
    Two words I can match with Dutch and German.

    Vlasi-hair Vlas (Dutch) Flachs (German) ---> English Flax
    A plant that is used to make threads to weave linen fabric.
    In old Dutch it was said that people with blond hair had "Flax hair".

    It may be interesting to study the use of flax or wool by different tribes.
    Wool seems to be a more Celtic material.

    mač May have something in common with Mes (Dutch) Messer (German)
    English Knife.

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    I've decided to pick something which may be a tad more representative, and at the same time it shows up some problems. For one, I selected only three words comparison, namely iron, silver and gold. For the sake of making the map not too crammed, I dumped all the Romance languages in favour of just Latin. For the sake of completeness, here's the summary of the Romance languages:

    Portuguese - Spanish - Catalonian - French - Italian - Romanian
    Ferro - Hierro - Ferro - Fer - Ferro - Fier
    Prata - Plata - Plata - Argent - Argento - Argint
    Ouro - Oro - Or - Or - Oro - Aur

    Otherwise, here's the languages I used (note that the list both includes extant and extinct):

    Celtic languages:
    - Irish
    - Welsh
    - Breton
    - Gaulish (note that the word for gold is, to my knowledge, unattested, it can however be reconstructed with reasonable safety as "Auron").

    Germanic languages:
    - English
    - Dutch
    - German
    - Danish
    - Norwegian
    - Swedish
    - Gothic

    Slavic languages:
    - Czech
    - Polish
    - Croatian
    - Bulgarian
    - Russian
    - Ukrainian

    Other IE languages:
    - Latvian
    - Lithuanian
    - Latin
    - Albanian
    - Greek
    - Hittite (note that Hittite had no word for iron)

    Non-IE languages:
    - Basque
    - Finnish

    What is very interesting here is this:

    - in regard for gold and silver, Germanic uses the same root word as Baltic and Slavic (in common Balto-Slavic, G was rendered Z, hence "Zelta" vs. "Gold"). The Finnish word for "gold" apparently seems also be a cognate with Germanic.

    - The Germanic words for iron are derived from Celtic "Isarnos" (in fact, I was amazed how similar Gothic "Isarn" is to Gaulish "Isarnos"!), which makes perfect sense since the Germanic people adopted iron working from the Celtic Hallstatt Culture.

    - Celtic, Latin, Greek and Albanian use the same root word for silver. It must be added that Albanian may have borrowed the word from Latin.

    - Basque, Celtic, Latin and Albanian apparently use the same root word for gold.

    - What is very interesting is the Basque word for "iron" (Burdina), which raises the question, where did they get their iron from?

    - What is very unfortunate is that I couldn't find Etruscan or Dacian words for any of the three.

    EDIT: I should add that technically, this does not belong into genetics but linguistics...
    Last edited by Taranis; 09-03-11 at 17:48.

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    Cool stuff. Teranis, can you add copper and bronze to the map? We might see some early influences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Cool stuff. Teranis, can you add copper and bronze to the map? We might see some early influences.
    Thanks. And yes, I can definitely do that, but I probably won't do so tonight...

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    I will post an upgraded map later tonight (regarding copper/bronze), but before I do, I have an addition to the first map, namely two very interesting terms:

    - the Celtiberian word for silver is attested as "arkanta".

    - the Thracian word for gold is attested as "saldas" (compare Baltic/Slavic).

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    It is interesting int Italian "copper" is RAME, and in Albanian REM. What do you think?

    And in Arabian language iron is called HADID, does it has any link to Hetits??

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    Why not add the words for stone?

    In English.. "Flintstone"
    In Dutch we use the word "Flinterdun" Which means very thin and sharp.
    In Southern Dutch we know the word "Vlim" for a fish bone. Thin and sharp.
    In Dutch we also know the word "vlijmscherp". So it is.. Flint.. Vlim .. Vlijm

    Funny is, the English word translated back and forth from Dutch happens to be Firestone.
    (Vuursteen)

    Flintstone was used together with iron objects to make fire.
    Very long after the use of flintstone weapons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    Why not add the words for stone?

    In English.. "Flintstone"
    In Dutch we use the word "Flinterdun" Which means very thin and sharp.
    In Southern Dutch we know the word "Vlim" for a fish bone. Thin and sharp.
    In Dutch we also know the word "vlijmscherp". So it is.. Flint.. Vlim .. Vlijm

    Funny is, the English word translated back and forth from Dutch happens to be Firestone.
    (Vuursteen)

    Flintstone was used together with iron objects to make fire.
    Very long after the use of flintstone weapons.
    (by the way, I'm sorry it's not finished yet)

    I'm not sure how useful "stone" would be. The iron-silver-gold comparison gave a rather coherent pattern, but from what I have thus far same cannot be quite said in resport for copper-tin-bronze. What also seems apparent to me is that the word "bronze" is actually a relatively new one, and that many ancient cultures apparently used "copper" and "bronze" rather interchangably.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I will post an upgraded map later tonight (regarding copper/bronze), but before I do, I have an addition to the first map, namely two very interesting terms:
    - the Celtiberian word for silver is attested as "arkanta".
    - the Thracian word for gold is attested as "saldas" (compare Baltic/Slavic).
    Portuguese - Spanish - Catalonian - French - Italian - Romanian
    Ouro - Oro - Or - Or - Oro - Aur
    Celtiberian arkanta
    Albanian ar
    Basque urre
    Hungarian arany
    Welsh aur
    Irish or

    Thracian saldas
    Latvian zelta
    Slovenian zlata
    Serbian/Croatian/Macedonian/Czech/Slovak/Bulgarian zlato
    Russian zoloto
    Belorissian zolata
    Polish zloto

    Norwegian gull
    Finish kulta
    Estonian kuld
    Danish/Swedish guld
    English/german gold
    Dutch goud


    Lithuanian auksas

    Armenian voski

    Greek chrysós

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    Err... Celtiberian "Arkanta" means silver, not gold.

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