Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 57

Thread: why were I2a people exterminated in Italy and not in the Balkans ?

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-02-12
    Posts
    34
    Points
    511
    Level
    5
    Points: 511, Level: 5
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 39
    Overall activity: 63.0%


    Country: Czech Republic



    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Were the Balkans so technologically advanced to resist both Middle East Neolithic farmers (J2, G...) and Indo European ?
    What happened to I2A in Italy ??
    The most plausible explanation is that the Balkan difficult terrain and isolation protected the aboriginal I2.

    Their is no real way to explain the Romanians surrounded by slavs for a long period after the last contact with any Latins/Romans, still maintaining the latin culture and language unless a population is extant that is preserving this.

    The largest pct of Romanians are I2 / aboriginal, with significant intrusions from R1a and R1b. The quarter of the population that is I2 has in my opinion been there since before the Romanization. I2 aboriginals were decimated in most places within europe by the ascent of the R1a and R1b but the difficult terrain and the well-noted tenaciousness (by romans, ottomans, russians in ww2) of the aboriginal I2 romanians allowed them to hold out in the more forbidding landscapes of the mountainous balkans better than in flat land or open agricultural areas.

  2. #27
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    68,877
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,877, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 873
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    The most plausible explanation is that the Balkan difficult terrain and isolation protected the aboriginal I2.
    What characteristics of the type of I2 that is present in the Balkans makes you think that it's "aboriginal" to that region? Where in Europe do you think I2 is "aboriginal" to?

  3. #28
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,348
    Points
    36,248
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,248, Level: 58
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 402
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you seem to not realise that all the slavs in the balkans are in majority not genetic slavs but only linguistic slavs.

    If you read from the polish forums, they say the slavs in balkans came from slavs that entered firstly into modern poland and then some went south. The poles originated as slavs in and around modern Kiev ( ukraine).
    So, we know the croatians are originally persian ( iranics), the serbians are thracian, the bulgars are turkic, the avars in northern serbia are turkic, the bosnians are illyrian, the slovenes are celtic, venetic and illyrian and montengrians are ex-serbians from thracian people.
    Justinian and others later on only mentioned a total of 100000 slav warriors plus 100000 family members.

    If you can understand that the russian people as noted by popultion numbers was 3M and the balkans was 3.5M in and around the year 500AD , we can see why this group of slavs was of a minor number in the balkans. The avars where the first to enter in 575AD and a century later the slavs.

    The I2a1 was already in the balkans prior to the turkic Avars and also prior to the "polish" slavs
    1- I never said that Southern Slavs was identical to Northern, Western or Eastern Slavs - I said they share a lot of fetaures - and I repeat Bulgarians as a whole are VERY DIFFERENT from other Southern Slavs
    2- NO people is nor WAS pure at the down of our era even your Turcs or Illyrians or ...
    3- the differences between Southern Slavs and other Slavs don' t find basis only to the distribution of Y-I2a1 because others autosomals and HGs are playing there
    4- I agree that a part of the first Serbian or Croatioan people have surely a non-slavic origin but that don't link this foreign part to Y-I2a1
    5- my affirmation that Y-I2a1b as a whole is not autochtonous to present day Dalmatia and Dinaric Alps don't signify I believe all this new stock of Y-I2a1b in Balkans is only of Slavic origin, arrived therevery late: previous peoples there (since the Neolithic) carried surely among others a lot of this HG and they there are big chances that they had contact with Slavs after contacts with other I-E folks - So my only bets are that Y-I2a1b has had a complicated enough story in all these lands and it stays always the problem of his relative poor diversity ...

  4. #29
    Baron Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-05-12
    Posts
    262
    Points
    5,680
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,680, Level: 22
    Level completed: 26%, Points required for next Level: 370
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Country: Canada



    They were probably never exterminated, they were probably never there. There are I2a1 haplotypes in Italy, Spain and Sardinia. That's likely as close as you will get - and the ocassional I2a2 balkan haplotype.

  5. #30
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,348
    Points
    36,248
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,248, Level: 58
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 402
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    you seem to not realise that all the slavs in the balkans are in majority not genetic slavs but only linguistic slavs. If you read from the polish forums, they say the slavs in balkans came from slavs that entered firstly into modern poland and then some went south. The poles originated as slavs in and around modern Kiev ( ukraine). So, we know the croatians are originally persian ( iranics), the serbians are thracian, the bulgars are turkic, the avars in northern serbia are turkic, the bosnians are illyrian, the slovenes are celtic, venetic and illyrian and montengrians are ex-serbians from thracian people. Justinian and others later on only mentioned a total of 100000 slav warriors plus 100000 family members. If you can understand that the russian people as noted by popultion numbers was 3M and the balkans was 3.5M in and around the year 500AD , we can see why this group of slavs was of a minor number in the balkans. The avars where the first to enter in 575AD and a century later the slavs. The I2a1 was already in the balkans prior to the turkic Avars and also prior to the "polish" slavs
    I KNOW southern slavic populations are not pure Slavs descendants (almost everyone knows that) if you had red my previous post you can see I consider Bulgarians as a whole as the less slavic - we are speculating about proportions - previously I believed the slavic part among them was about 10% only - I changed, not only based on genetical studies but for phenotypes - I think now that Slavs ancestors could rise to 25-30% among present Serbs and Croats (and maybe more among slavic Macedonians - I don't think any of these peoples is pure so I don't believe at all Croats are Persians (even if remote origin could have been, but they were very mixed on their way), nor Serbs are Thracians (I should think Northern Albanians and Kosovars have more thracian blood than Serbs) - Yes, Avars and previous Bulgars was of steppic turkic origin) - what I think is that Y-I as a whole is recent in Balkans, carried by more than an ethnic group - the first Y-I2a1b surely was in North Balkans for the Iron Age, I think even earlier, BUT NOT at Paleolithic times - I think it had occasions to get there from Czechoslavia (protohistory and after maybe Illyrians), Carpathian Mountains and in early Middle Ages from Ukraina and a little after (more numerous) as you said, during the Slavs descent from Czechoslovakia - I have in mind that 'dinaric' types and Y-I2a1a and some Y-I2a2 (ex I2b) are found too in present day western Ukraina, and these people are on the way of Kiev region, you put as slavic cradle (I think as you), to Central Europe & Balkans... what I should need is a very deep and well sampled survey on the Y-I2a1a 'dinaric' everywhere in Eastern & Central Europe have a good night

  6. #31
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,348
    Points
    36,248
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,248, Level: 58
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 402
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    as I say in another thread, today, I did a mistake when affirmating that Illyrians could have carried a lot of Y-I2a1b and have been centered around Dalmatia (they could have some I2, but perhaps not a lot) - Illyrian genuine territory "in fine" is closer to Greece, Albania seams the center of it, a small territory indeed - illyrian language seams to the most of the linguists being linked to thracian, dacian, messapian, and albanian all satem languages after having excluded false illyrians inscriptions (and perhaps for me are they linked to Y-E1b) - the North (Slovenia) was more venetian (ancient Veneti close to Italics) - the peaks of Y-I2a1b in present day Croatia are still the problem because I don't believe in Paleolithic people there and a pure complete (& late enough) slavic origin seams exagerated - where was the deme that furnished Dalmatia-Dinaric Alps? where is the place of a possible births boom at proto-historic times? I think a possible origin in the late Neolithic Cucuteni-Tripolje region around Carpathian Mountains, in a second stage of Neolithic: what culture after that??? a secondary indo-europeanized people after exchanges with the Steppes tribes? aside the linguistic problem, the genetic one is not a problem because I suppose that the Y-I2a1b in Slavs is due for a large part to the synthesis Romania-Moldavia NeolithicSteppes peoples of Ukraina (and influences farther in Siberia!!!) AT A STAGE PRECEDING THE CENTUM>

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-04-12
    Posts
    384
    Points
    10,417
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,417, Level: 30
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 133
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Finland



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    What characteristics of the type of I2 that is present in the Balkans makes you think that it's "aboriginal" to that region? Where in Europe do you think I2 is "aboriginal" to?
    Indeed there's no basis in Pipicannus statement.

  8. #33
    Junior Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-02-13
    Posts
    8
    Points
    4,842
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,842, Level: 20
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 208
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-Z17855

    Ethnic group
    Macedonian
    Country: Sweden



    to many spekulations about the slavic people and the language. i don´t understand why everybody tries to link "modern" countrys like serbia and croatia to slavic or slavs or if they ever exicisted and who says that somebody had to come from the other side maybe the slavs are the I2a and never came from the east, they have to dig up more evidens it is to early to claim heritage let time past and science speak, this is beyond "modern" nations

  9. #34
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Templar's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-11
    Posts
    622
    Points
    7,898
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,898, Level: 26
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 252
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    I think a possible origin in the late Neolithic Cucuteni-Tripolje region around Carpathian Mountains, in a second stage of Neolithic: what culture after that??? a secondary indo-europeanized people after exchanges with the Steppes tribes? aside the linguistic problem, the genetic one is not a problem because I suppose that the Y-I2a1b in Slavs is due for a large part to the synthesis Romania-Moldavia NeolithicSteppes peoples of Ukraina (and influences farther in Siberia!!!) AT A STAGE PRECEDING THE CENTUM>
    I think that is possible. Imagine a tribe of hunter-gatherers interacting with incoming farmers from the Near-East; trading with them and getting to know their way of life. It is likely that they adopted farming and created a large enough population, which by the time of the invasions from the steppe would have had a good chance of "surviving" (as opposed to other Haplogroup I populations which didn't adopt farming by then). The Slavs would have formed an elite class, but over time would have assimilated the population culturally (but not genetically). This would explain a lot if we could find some conclusive evidence for it. It seems much more likely than the theory that ALL Slavs had I2 from the beginning as a sizable component of their populations.

  10. #35
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Probably haplogroup I2a never even arrived in mainland Italy. Sardinia has such high frequencies of I because a branch that proceeded from Balkans to Germany would split into two branches, one would continue north to dominate Scandinavia and one would stay in Germany. I believe the German branch split off, headed to Iberia and from Iberia ( there is 33% haplogroup I in parts of central Iberia) headed to Sardinia.... It may never have passed from Balkans to Italy to Sardinia, in my opinion

  11. #36
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    This could be confirmed by the low but much higher than italy frequencies of I2 in Spain.

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    03-03-12
    Posts
    212
    Points
    1,827
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,827, Level: 11
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Ethnic group
    Serbian
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Probably haplogroup I2a never even arrived in mainland Italy. Sardinia has such high frequencies of I because a branch that proceeded from Balkans to Germany would split into two branches, one would continue north to dominate Scandinavia and one would stay in Germany. I believe the German branch split off, headed to Iberia and from Iberia ( there is 33% haplogroup I in parts of central Iberia) headed to Sardinia.... It may never have passed from Balkans to Italy to Sardinia, in my opinion
    exactly....

    i think also that north corner of Adriatic was held by R1a people...
    and I2a took Danube path to central Europe....

    not sure whether I2a1 and I2a2 could be split due to people of parent branch spending ice age in different refuge areas (that I2a1 came to existence in Iberia and I2a-din in Balkan and Black sea and exotic branches perhaps from people that tried to survive ice age in central Europe)....

    regarding I2a-Din and Illyrians - I think at least some Illyrian tribes had it, but I also think Serbs and Croats brought it as well.... i explain this with my beliefs that Illyrians were Celtic people and also that distant ancestors of Serbs and Croats were Celtic people...

    if I2a-Din was on Balkan in times of Illyrians, how can it be that it did not expand to Italy?
    well, it does not makes sense... nothing to gain....Croatian coast with zillion islands is much better place to live and defend then flat line coasts of italy...

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    exactly....

    i think also that north corner of Adriatic was held by R1a people...
    and I2a took Danube path to central Europe....

    not sure whether I2a1 and I2a2 could be split due to people of parent branch spending ice age in different refuge areas (that I2a1 came to existence in Iberia and I2a-din in Balkan and Black sea and exotic branches perhaps from people that tried to survive ice age in central Europe)....

    regarding I2a-Din and Illyrians - I think at least some Illyrian tribes had it, but I also think Serbs and Croats brought it as well.... i explain this with my beliefs that Illyrians were Celtic people and also that distant ancestors of Serbs and Croats were Celtic people...

    if I2a-Din was on Balkan in times of Illyrians, how can it be that it did not expand to Italy?
    well, it does not makes sense... nothing to gain....Croatian coast with zillion islands is much better place to live and defend then flat line coasts of italy...

    LOL, u need to get up to date...2012 data

    current DNA of the Northeast of Italy

    pre-roman (%) ( 2012)
    E-V13 = 2.2
    E-M215 = 2.2
    E-M34 = 2.1 (semitic people)
    G-P15 = 4.2
    I-M423 = 21.3
    I-M26 = 2.1
    J-M172 = 10.7
    L-M317 = 2.1
    R-M420 = 12.8
    R-M269 = 40.4


    2008 tests (%)
    E-M33 = 1.5
    E-V13 = 1.5
    E-M123 = 1.5
    G2a* = 11.9
    I1* = 9.0
    I2a1* = 9.4
    I-M223 = 1.5
    J2a* = 3.0
    J2a1k = 3.0
    J-M92 = 1.5
    L2-M317 = 4.5
    R-M420 = 10.4
    R-M269 = 41.8
    T-L131 = 3.0
    T-P77 = 0.3

    Phenotype
    Central and Eastern Veneto ( with friuli)
    - Type 1 : Intermediate complexion (chestnut or blonde hair, light eyes, ...), leptomorphic, rather narrow face, long and straight high-rooted nose that can get arched, close set eyes, large jaw, pointy chin
    ~ Dinaromorphic Nordo-Mediterranean

    Western Veneto ( with Trento )
    - Type 2 : Intermediate complexion, brachymorphic, round face, little and low-rooted nose that can get snub-tipped, wide set eyes
    ~ Alpinoid

    Venetian lagoon area

    - Type 3 : Intermediate complexion (from medium dark to blonde hair, blue, green or hazel eyes ...), brachymorphic, little and narrow straight nose, square-box face, broad forehead, rather wide-set eyes
    ~ Alpinoid/Subnordid

    Venetian-Istrano
    - Type 4 : Light complexion (blonde hair, green eyes, ...), leptomorphic, arched nose, large jaw, pointy chin, close-set eyes
    ~ Nordo-Dinarid

    women , either
    type that one could label, "Alpino-Med" which is very specific to Veneto : puffy and fleshy features
    or
    classical North Italian phenotype ( some individuals actually match neighbouring Slovenian variability), it is traditionally accompanied by a darker variant (Dinaro-Mediterranoid) which is the quintessential pan-Italian phenotype.

    The only y-dna change between ancient and modern times is more G2a.
    J, I and E dropped
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  14. #39
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Some Frenchmen but predominantly Iberian, especially central Spanish men, are high in percentage of Sardinian I suggesting that it moved from Balkans to Germany, Germany through France to Spain/Iberia where it stayed a while and the over to Sardinia. ( among the 10% of Spanish that are I, the predominance is the Sardinian subclade).

  15. #40
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Phenotype a dont really mean much at all in terms of actual genetics unless we are talking about precise population features such as haplogroup I and R1b people's being very white, American Indians being olive skinned and Chinese eyed or Assyrians having jet black hair and beards with predominantly brown eyes...features such as skinny, fat or aquiline noses are found in Mesopotamian just as in Celtic, Nordic, Native American people's...for example certain I1a men have aquiline/Arabid noses but their whiter, but somewhere down the line they came from the Middle East/Anatolia as well. All that coon's plates stuff to me of alpine/Nordic race etc. is vague and not important unless for the obvious distinctions, for example negroids have flat and wide noses such as mongoloids and caucasoids have skinnier longer noses. The main distinctive categories to me make obvious sense such as negroid, mongoloid, caucasoid etc. but the rest of the subcategories are vague considering looks and certain facial features vary greatly even within populations ( oval faces, heart shaped faces, round faces, fat, skinny, big, small noses etc). Even within caucasoids or other groups, traits such as alpine-meds and puffy fleshy faces and bracylocephalic skull....it's much more vague than the story of the genetics that is pin point accurate in determining similar groups...the other methods seem outdated and can not cover the broad level of possible anthropological diversities within a population in a precise way , in my opinion.

  16. #41
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-13
    Posts
    1,040
    Points
    5,756
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,756, Level: 22
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 294
    Overall activity: 34.0%


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    at Zanipolo

    It seems that there is not only an Anthropological diff. Between North and South Italy, but also within the North itself. - between North West [Lombardy/Liguria/Piedmont] and North East [Veneto/Friul].
    This is Strictly Anthropologically Sub-Races of the Caucasoid race [Alpine-Nordic-Mediterranean-Armenoid].

    Eugène Pittard - Race and History: An Ethnological Introduction to History (1926)
    ~ ITALY ~ - p.148
    (1) The Adriatic or Dinaric race, tall, brachycephalic and brunet, inhabited the northeast.
    ---
    (2) The Western or Cevenole race, brunet, brachycephalic and small, installed itself to the west of the Dinaric people. But these representatives of Homo alpinus do not seem to constitute such a homogeneous bloc as their neighbours to the east.
    ---
    (3) The Ibero-Insular race — the Homo meridionalis of certain authors — is distributed in the south of Italy; This ethnic type — small, dark-haired, dolichocephalic — also peoples the Italian islands [Sardinia/Sicily]
    ---
    To these three main races we must add that interesting but, as regards its origin, enigmatic group of the Ligurian Apennines and the littoral of the Riviera di Levante characterized by tall stature and dolichocephaly. Ought we to connect it, zoologically, with the Atlanto-Mediterranean race of Deniker — which, with breaks, inhabits the country extending from the French coast almost to the mouth of the Tiber ? Have we here survivals of a Nordic type ? Or should we rather credit, historically, the idea that they are a remnant of the Germanic bands of Radegast rather than that they constitute a residue of hypothetical Lydians ?
    ---

    Something all other Anthropologists [Eickstedt/Banse/Lundman/Deniker/Czekanowski etc] confirm, that NE Italy is more Dinaric and NW Italy more Alpinoid (Mediterranid/Atlanto-Mediterranid)

    von Eickstedt -


    Atlanto-Medit. from Piedmont NW Italy - [Carleton S. Coon - Plates]


    Borreby [Nordid/Alpine] from Lombardy N Italy - [Carleton S. Coon - Plates]


    Noric type from Vicenza (Venetia) NE Italy - [Ridolfo Livi - Plates]


    Also, acc. to Ridolfo Livi the NE of Italy is the region with the highest frequency of Blond hair {higher than Lombardy or Piedmont] and together with Lombardy the highest frequency of Light eyes (Blue/Grey) in Italy.
    Something [exact frequencies] also Beals & Hoijer confirm.

    Dr. Ridolfo Livi - Antropometria Militare


    Dr. Gustav Kraitschek - Zeitschrift für Schul-Geographie: Vol XXIII-XXIV (1902)
    Der Einfluss der nordischen Rasse in Oberitalien ist nicht überall gleich stark ... unter den italienischen Arbeitern, die bei uns als Erdarbeiter, Straßenbauer usw thätig sind, sieht man zuweilen mächtige, blond- oder rothbärtige Männer mit "germanischem" Profile, die wohl meist aus den nördlichen Theilen der Poebene stammen.
    Translation -
    The influence of the Nordic race in northern Italy is not equally strong ... among Italian workers who are active with us (Austria-Hungary) as navvies, road builders, etc, you see sometimes powerful, blond or red-bearded men with "Germanic" profiles, which were probably mostly from the northern parts of the Po Valley.

    Anthropologically the NE Italians (Venetians/Friulians) are more Noric/Dinaric than NW Italians (Lombards/Piedmontese/Ligurians) who are more Alpinoid/Mediterranid.The Adriatic Veneti must have been of a diff. Caucasoid sub-race than the Umbrians/Insubres (Isombri). Also Genetically, NE Italians have the highest (far more than NW Italy) R1a frequency in Italy.
    Last edited by Nobody1; 20-04-13 at 16:21.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    Nobody1's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-03-13
    Posts
    1,040
    Points
    5,756
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,756, Level: 22
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 294
    Overall activity: 34.0%


    Country: Germany - Baden-Wurttemberg



    as for the question itself, was there really that much I2a in Italy in order for it to be exterminated? doubtful.....

  18. #43
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    No there never was. And traits such as red hair are not indicative of race....there are R1b men with red, blond, brown even black hair and eye color... It's not indicative of subtypes of humans that are classified together

  19. #44
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    760
    Points
    5,842
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,842, Level: 22
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 208
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Country: Sweden



    if I2a-Din was on Balkan in times of Illyrians, how can it be that it did not expand to Italy?
    well, it does not makes sense... nothing to gain....Croatian coast with zillion islands is much better place to live and defend then flat line coasts of italy... " No,I2a-"DinS" was not on Balkan in times of Illyrians,because I2a-"DinS" is 2050 years old.Try to understand!

  20. #45
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    Possibly for environmental reasons maybe the just decided to stay in their Balkan Bosnian refuge, there may be many reasons why they never went to Italy including that they didn't know its existence, could be anything. All I know is that I is the oldest surviving male lineage to enter Europe so I2a could not have been in Europe the shortest total time that's for sure

  21. #46
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    Actually according to a map I saw recently by a certain geneticist called Nordverdt , I-M26 the Sardinian variety crossed directly from the Bosnia area of the Balkans to Italy, then to Sardinia, then to Spain then to France and some of it ended up in England, all at low trace percentages of course, other than Sardinia where it thrived. The second most common place is in Spain although its already rare even there.

  22. #47
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    68,877
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,877, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 873
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Actually according to a map I saw recently by a certain geneticist called Nordverdt , I-M26 the Sardinian variety crossed directly from the Bosnia area of the Balkans to Italy, then to Sardinia, then to Spain then to France and some of it ended up in England, all at low trace percentages of course, other than Sardinia where it thrived. The second most common place is in Spain although its already rare even there.
    You're over-interpreting Nordtvedt's schematic map. It isn't intended to show the precise geographic branching locations of M26 across its history, it's only, as Nordtvedt says, a "schematic, don't overinterpret." More useful for a precise analysis of the history of M26 is Cullen's tree. Notice that its highest diversity is actually in Germany, but with its only major subclade having its highest diversity in France. That gives us a much better idea of its history. Also notice that, per Nordtvedt's map and tree, its closest relatives are the Western and Alpine subclades, followed by the big blob that includes the young Dinaric clade. But Dinaric is the geographic outlier... check out my map and look for the red dots.

  23. #48
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-05-17
    Posts
    18
    Points
    1,180
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,180, Level: 9
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    Look at where the supposed Serbian homeland is which was known as "Dervan's Serbia" and compare it to modern distribution of I2a1. There is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the exact area where the Serbian homeland was stated to be by Byzantine Chronicles.


  24. #49
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    300
    Points
    1,893
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,893, Level: 12
    Level completed: 15%, Points required for next Level: 257
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by stoningbull54 View Post
    Look at where the supposed Serbian homeland is which was known as "Dervan's Serbia" and compare it to modern distribution of I2a1. There is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the exact area where the Serbian homeland was stated to be by Byzantine Chronicles.

    Which place exactly? East Germany next to Czechia?

  25. #50
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    20,999
    Level
    44
    Points: 20,999, Level: 44
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 651
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by stoningbull54 View Post
    Look at where the supposed Serbian homeland is which was known as "Dervan's Serbia" and compare it to modern distribution of I2a1. There is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the exact area where the Serbian homeland was stated to be by Byzantine Chronicles.

    Dervan was king of Lusatian Sorbs (Surbi) and Dervan' Serbia was country of Lusatian Sorbs.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs_(tribe)

    "The Surbi, also known as Sorbs in modern historiography, was an Early Slavic tribe in Lower Lusatia, part of the Wends. In the 7th century, the tribe was part of Samo's Empire. The tribe is last mentioned in the late 10th century.

    Dervan's province.
    The oldest mention of the Surbi is from the Frankish 7th-century Chronicle of Fredegar, in which they are mentioned as a Slavic tribe under the leadership of dux (duke) Dervan ("Dervanus dux gente Surbiorum que ex genere Sclavinorum"), which joined the Slavic tribal union of Samo (known in historiography as "Samo's Empire").[1] The Surbi lived in the Saale-Elbe valley, having settled in the Thuringian part of Francia.[1] The Saale-Elbe line marked the approximate limit of Slavic westward migration.[2] The Surbi and other Slavic tribes joined Samo after his decisive victory against Frankish King Dagobert I in 631.[1] Afterwards, these Slavic tribes continuously raided Thuringia.[1] The fate of the tribes after 658 is undetermined, though some subsequently returned to Frankish vassalage."
    ...

    Nothing to do with Balkan Serbs, even genetic is very different, only similarity in name, probably word with letters s, r and b has old origin.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?
    By sparkey in forum I2
    Replies: 1464
    Last Post: 15-08-19, 04:19
  2. Germanic settlement in the southern Balkans ? ?
    By Maciamo in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 107
    Last Post: 06-03-15, 13:23
  3. Reconstructing the Balkans
    By Duo in forum EU politics & government
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-10-11, 04:09
  4. Media freedom in the balkans
    By Elias2 in forum European News & Hot Topics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-05-11, 15:23

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •