Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum

View Poll Results: Is George W. Bush to thank for democracy in the Middle-East?

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, I think the war in Iraq made revolution possible.

    1 5.26%
  • No!

    16 84.21%
  • Not sure...

    2 10.53%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 68

Thread: George W. Bush a great man?

  1. #26
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    [QUOTE=silkyslovanbojkovsky;415274 Because all the sudden guys like Gadhafi wanted to change business plans. Same with Mubarak. [/QUOTE]It was actually French and English who attack Gadafi first. And nobody attacked Mubarak, but his own countrymen.

    They only care about their own interests. Im an American so Im not against the people or the nation as a whole, but these companies need to be put under check in the U.S
    What would happen if all the companies left US?

    Funny thing is that you choose to live in US and not in poor Slovakia, which is not controlled by big business.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  2. #27
    Banned
    Join Date
    20-08-13
    Location
    London,England
    Posts
    77

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a

    Ethnic group
    Slavic, Vlach, Celto-Germanic
    Country: Slovakia



    FYI I don't live in the U.S and French and English are allies of U.S they do nothing with out American support, and agreement. I never said companies should leave U.S. They should be put under check. Don't be so defensive,as I said in my quote Im proud to be an American, I have ancestors that have been in the U.S since before the revolution, but these companies don't give a crap about you and me or America, or the world for that matter. They need to be put under check. How can we have a sovereign government, when our nation is in debt to the federal reserve, which is a private bank. They were even discussing a couple of years ago in congress weather the U.S military should be privatized. Thank God that didn't happen. These companies want as much power as they can get, and Im not going to defend them or act like its not a problem in the U.S

  3. #28
    Elite member Tomenable's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Location
    Poznan
    Posts
    4,660

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey
    Totally. The US was in support of the Taliban until 1996 or so because they were thought to be good at preventing communism from spreading into the region, and didn't consider bin Laden a threat until 1998. Oops. Not the first time, nor the last, that US foreign policy has backfired.
    Nice documentary:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OI8Y0jjM0k


  4. #29
    Regular Member Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,155






    Quote Originally Posted by silkyslovanbojkovsky View Post
    FYI I don't live in the U.S and French and English are allies of U.S they do nothing with out American support, and agreement. I never said companies should leave U.S. They should be put under check. Don't be so defensive,as I said in my quote Im proud to be an American, I have ancestors that have been in the U.S since before the revolution, but these companies don't give a crap about you and me or America, or the world for that matter. They need to be put under check. How can we have a sovereign government, when our nation is in debt to the federal reserve, which is a private bank. They were even discussing a couple of years ago in congress weather the U.S military should be privatized. Thank God that didn't happen. These companies want as much power as they can get, and Im not going to defend them or act like its not a problem in the U.S
    It's really sad when an American complains for his own country.

  5. #30
    Regular Member Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,155






    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    With potential democratic revolution sweeping across the arab world is Gerorge W. Bush to thank?

    Would any of this have been possible without the war in Iraq and the fall of Sadam Hussain?
    It's too difficult making a point on that. But definitely the Iraq war was something good. A dictator less is always a good and nice thing

  6. #31
    Regular Member Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,155






    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I really wanted to believe that current ant-regime revolts are caused by political movements. It would be great and uplifting, but these are my personal feelings a freedom fighter.

    History is teaching us that usually it is not the case. To get nation to stand up against autocrats surrounded by police and army, takes something more prosaic like hunger, pain, and anger. Democracy and freedoms are nice, but there is no popular revolution and sacrificing one’s life for it, at least for overwhelming majority of folks.

    What all these Middle Eastern countries had in common is a big population spurt of last decades. In Egypt in last 30 years population doubled from 40 to 80 million. 70% of demographics is under age of 35. Situation is the same all over the region. You have millions upon millions of young people with nothing to do. Give them any reason to fight and you have an army. The ubiquitous TV and Internet did the trick too, showing them how young people live in first world and what they’re missing.
    Granted, there was an economic progress in Middle East and Saharan Africa and lives got somewhat better during last economic boom. The problem was that population growth outpaced economy and creation of new work places. It’s really not good if 50% of young people are unemployed. All of this was brewing for years waiting for a moment to show its ugly face.
    The only real question is "why now?"
    I think the starting point was recent rise in food prices. In many of these countries governments subsidize many basic articles, like bread and gasoline. The current recession made holes in budgets of every country, Middle East and Africa wasn't immune. Governments lacking founds had to cut on what they subsidized or had to raise prices for these items, plus generally food became more expensive around the world. And here we go:

    - army of unemployed young people
    - expensive food, hungry families
    - knowlage what they missing to first world, TV, Internet
    - tribal and religious prosecutions and discriminations
    - political forces trying to take over the power
    - lack of freedoms ….................................and democracy
    - someone said “It’s time, let’s go…”


    If it comes to Bush, I think he was a romantic with lack of common sense. He’s vision included democracy for Middle East, but we are yet to see one fully working democracy there. Till then we are not even sure if any of these countries can manage running democratic system with all the political foundations, infrastructure, institutions, and overall will improve lives of their citizens with it.
    I wish them well, but I have to see to believe.
    Agree. But don't forget, that democracy is a long process. USA needed 230 year to build her own democracy. They had already a civil war. One day we will have a western democracy in middle east, but not yet. Democracy needs time. Unfortunately democracy and freedom need also many deaths and innocent blood. It's a harmful process. But there is hope. Tunisia is having already the democracy. Passing the time well will see more and more territories joining the democracy. . We should believe and being united


  7. #32
    Banned
    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    George W. Bush is a great man!

  8. #33
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,730


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    1 members found this post helpful.
    George H.W. Bush was a smart man.
    His son George H. Bush was the most stupid president in U.S. history.

    Arab spring doesn't work.
    It ends in religious and tribal wars.
    Europe was as stupid as George H. Bush.
    Neither Europe nor America has learned anything yet.

  9. #34
    Banned
    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    1,984


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Both, father and son were great presidents. But my favorit is President Regan.

  10. #35
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Both, father and son were great presidents. But my favorit is President Regan.
    Reagan is my favorite too.

  11. #36
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Agree. But don't forget, that democracy is a long process. USA needed 230 year to build her own democracy. They had already a civil war. One day we will have a western democracy in middle east, but not yet. Democracy needs time. Unfortunately democracy and freedom need also many deaths and innocent blood. It's a harmful process. But there is hope. Tunisia is having already the democracy. Passing the time well will see more and more territories joining the democracy. . We should believe and being united

    I totally agree. Creation of democracy in Europe is still unfinished in few countries. This process started 200 years ago in France, got fully embraced 100 years ago by collapse of old empires of Europe and it still continues till today. It was seriously interrupted by Fascism and Communism for decades. It is surprising that anyone would expect fully democratic Meddle East right away after dictators were removed.

  12. #37
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,730


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Reagan is my favorite too.
    that's something we agree on

  13. #38
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,730


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I totally agree. Creation of democracy in Europe is still unfinished in few countries. This process started 200 years ago in France, got fully embraced 100 years ago by collapse of old empires of Europe and it still continues till today. It was seriously interrupted by Fascism and Communism for decades. It is surprising that anyone would expect fully democratic Meddle East right away after dictators were removed.
    if US wouldn't have send troops to Europe during WW II , fascism and communism would still be there
    so what about ISIS ?
    if islamic fundamentalism isn't defeated and destroyed to the bottom no chance of democracy, for the moment we need strong dictators for stability in the Middle East

  14. #39
    Banned
    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    1,984


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if US wouldn't have send troops to Europe during WW II , fascism and communism would still be there so what about ISIS ? if islamic fundamentalism isn't defeated and destroyed to the bottom no chance of democracy, for the moment we need strong dictators for stability in the Middle East
    I don't think that a couple of strong dictators is the solution for the situation. You forget something very important, after a revolution there is always a fase of transition. Also the road from dictature to democracy is not short.

  15. #40
    Regular Member Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,155






    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    George H.W. Bush was a smart man.
    His son George H. Bush was the most stupid president in U.S. history.

    Arab spring doesn't work.
    It ends in religious and tribal wars.
    Europe was as stupid as George H. Bush.
    Neither Europe nor America has learned anything yet.
    No, Arab spring work. Freedom works either. Democracy is a long process. Do we have in Latin America a pure democracy? Not yes. USA is 240 years old. It's nonsense to think that the democracy would be built for three years in these Arab countries.

  16. #41
    Regular Member Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,155






    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Reagan is my favorite too.
    I hope for a new Reagan in white house .
    The second Punic war is coming.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,155






    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if US wouldn't have send troops to Europe during WW II , fascism and communism would still be there
    so what about ISIS ?
    if islamic fundamentalism isn't defeated and destroyed to the bottom no chance of democracy, for the moment we need strong dictators for stability in the Middle East
    Your are talking for ISIS like it's existing for decades. Two years is not a long period. Are you aware for how many years spread throughout Europe fascism and Nazism? You think is better Assad? Russia already is sending solders there. They are building a new military air base there. Egypt is governed for the moment by the generals, but one day even Egypt will be democratic. It's a process, up and down. Tunisia is having free elections already.

  18. #43
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,384

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if US wouldn't have send troops to Europe during WW II , fascism and communism would still be there

    Seriously, where do you take that from? Without US involvement in Europe during World War II, the most likely thing that would have happened is that the iron curtain would have extended along the Channel coast, and all of Continental Europe would have fallen under communist rule. There was no chance in hell for Hitler to win against the Soviet Union, because as things were, the Soviet Union was in a destitute condition when Nazi Germany attacked in 1941, and still Hitler lost.


    so what about ISIS ?
    if islamic fundamentalism isn't defeated and destroyed to the bottom no chance of democracy, for the moment we need strong dictators for stability in the Middle East

    The Daeesh are doing a marvellous job of thoroughly denouncing radical Islam. They first and foremost, kill other Muslims. Give it a couple of decades, and the pendulum will swing in the opposite direction (Richard Dawkins type atheism, the foundation for that is already happening). In my opinion, the whole "middle easterners can't understand democracy, the best thing for the Middle East is dictatorship" routine is one of the key factors that allowed radical Islam to grow and expand in the past 60 or so years. Imagine that somebody would have said the same about the Germans in 1945?

  19. #44
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,730


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Your are talking for ISIS like it's existing for decades. Two years is not a long period. Are you aware for how many years spread throughout Europe fascism and Nazism? You think is better Assad? Russia already is sending solders there. They are building a new military air base there. Egypt is governed for the moment by the generals, but one day even Egypt will be democratic. It's a process, up and down. Tunisia is having free elections already.
    islamic fundamentalism, al qaida, al shabab, boko haram .. is existing for decades
    ISIS is the new kid on the block

    Tunisia democracy won't last, it is very easy to destabilize, Tunisia depends on tourism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Sousse_attacks

    Assad is a war criminal, but what do you think would happen if he were eliminated tomorrow?
    ISIS is just waiting for that to happen.

    What would you think if general Sisi were not in Egypt?
    ISIS is just waiting for that to happen.

    Democracy took 500 years to happen in Europe.
    Do you want to wait that long?

  20. #45
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,730


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Seriously, where do you take that from? Without US involvement in Europe during World War II, the most likely thing that would have happened is that the iron curtain would have extended along the Channel coast, and all of Continental Europe would have fallen under communist rule. There was no chance in hell for Hitler to win against the Soviet Union, because as things were, the Soviet Union was in a destitute condition when Nazi Germany attacked in 1941, and still Hitler lost.
    so you would have prefered Stalin over Hitler?

    it's what I told , fascism and communism would still be there

  21. #46
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,730


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Imagine that somebody would have said the same about the Germans in 1945?
    well, why not give ISIS and all fumdamentalist movements worldwide the same treatment as the Germans at WW II ?

  22. #47
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,384

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Democracy took 500 years to happen in Europe.
    Do you want to wait that long?
    Radical Islam as we know and loathe it today didn't take 500 years to appear. Its a development of the past century (starting out with the carving up of the Ottoman Empire by the Entente powers).

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    so you would have prefered Stalin over Hitler?

    I never talked about what I prefer, I talked about what would likely have happened. I said what would have happened without US involvement in World War II. Truth be told, I'm tired of the clientele of commenters that Fox News digs up with a high level of regularity that proudly claim on screen "if it wasn't for us (the US), you (Europe) would be all speaking German". History is not simple, nor is it ever black-and-white.


    it's what I told , fascism and communism would still be there

    No. There are two primary reasons why Hitler was defeated: the preserverance of the British and the strategic depth and massive resources of the Soviet Union, both factors which Hitler immensely underestimated. The UK could have surrendered after the fiasco at Dunkirk, but they didn't. The US does not deserve much credit for defeating Hitler in World War II. They were not a game changer with that, and I am sure that fascism would not be around without the US involvement. They deserve, however, credit for the iron curtain running as far east as it did historically (as I described).

    (my apologies for taking this off-topic)

  23. #48
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,295

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if US wouldn't have send troops to Europe during WW II , fascism and communism would still be there
    so what about ISIS ?
    if islamic fundamentalism isn't defeated and destroyed to the bottom no chance of democracy, for the moment we need strong dictators for stability in the Middle East
    I'm for EU boots on the ground to finish Daesh. Even though I know it will create political vacuum and perhaps new ethnic conflicts.

  24. #49
    Curious
    Join Date
    11-08-12
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    2,246

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Not known - O3?
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Not known - M?

    Ethnic group
    Chinese
    Country: Canada-British Columbia



    Even though I don't think too much of IQ which tests classroom intelligence or similated or lab constructs of the real world, like Alfred (?) Binet created IQ tests for French soldiers. Look at how well the French military has performed. The Maginot Line? Ha, ha.

    Well anyway with my rant about IQ tests out of the way here is a ranking of US presidents on IQ.

    http://us-presidents.insidegov.com/s...ent-presidents

    http://us-presidents.insidegov.com/s...-George-W-Bush
    Last edited by oriental; 18-09-15 at 01:24.

  25. #50
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,497


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by oriental View Post
    Even though I don't think too much of IQ which tests classroom intelligence or similated or lab constructs of the real world, like Alfred (?) Binet created IQ tests for French soldiers. Look at how well the French military has performed. The Maginot Line? Ha, ha.

    Well any with my rant about IQ tests out of the way here is a ranking of US presidents on IQ.

    http://us-presidents.insidegov.com/s...ent-presidents

    http://us-presidents.insidegov.com/s...-George-W-Bush
    This is supposed to be a forum where people discuss scientific or otherwise "vetted" evidence of some sort. The people who put this on the web are political ideologues who have no freaking clue what the IQ of various Presidents might have been because there are, to my knowledge, no such records that we can access.

    Grades in college are some evidence, although if somebody spends most of his time in college partying, that will affect grades. On the other side of the spectrum, there are over achievers who get very good grades without being very intelligent.

    Along this vein, John Kerry, whom Democrats lauded as an intellect compared to George W Bush, got worse grades at Harvard than Bush did at Yale.

    If I were going to guess, Jimmy Carter, who was a nuclear engineer, may have had a higher IQ than many of our Presidents. He was, in my opinion, one of the worst presidents we ever had. Truman was a haberdasher, and did a pretty good job.

    So long as someone has a base IQ of about 120-130 (rough guess), other factors are more important, in my opinion, like the ability to communicate and inspire and persuade, a calm temperament, the ability to handle stress, and leadership skills. Of course, sound opinions on economics and world affairs are also important.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The great standard!
    By Miss Marple's nephew in forum European food and recipes
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-01-11, 20:39
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 20-10-05, 03:56

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •