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Thread: Illyria

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    Julia there are still alot of greeks in southern albania. The actual numbers arn't clear due to distorted data. Check out this article of balkaninsight.com about albania and the upcomming albanian census;

    http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...poned-amid-row

    The Albanian government is worried if they add an ethnicity label some albanians would recognise themselves as greeks.
    that's interesting, i think southern albanians should admit that they descend from ancient preistoric greek population (look at albania tribes map), for example here there is the aknowledgement that southern italy was once magna graecia, but it doesn't stop southern italian to be italians.
    because greeks were one of the many people that inhabitated italy in the past, like messapian (illyrians), italics tribes, ligurians, etruscans, celts.

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    what are the pheatures (in look) that differenciate albanians from Serbians, Greeks, Bosnians, Macedonians etc..?

    could have greek tribes constituted the ancient substratum (of population ) in ancient albanians before the arrivals of other tribes?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Pre-Adam
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Pre-Eva

    Ethnic group
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    Country: Montenegro



    what are the pheatures (in look) that differenciate albanians from Serbians, Greeks, Bosnians, Macedonians etc..?
    These features cannot be expressed with words, but you can see with ur eyes. But in the whole Serbs and Slavo-Macedones are darker than Albanians.

    could have greek tribes constituted the ancient substratum (of population ) in ancient albanians before the arrivals of other tribes?
    It is the contrary. Greeks in the begining didnt exist. The greek nation was created on the Pelasgian substratum, and Pelasgians have all words realted to today albanian language.

    The greek nation for the first time was created in the 8 century. It is the inevtion of the:

    1. Alphabet
    2. Great Temples
    3. Delphi
    4. Greek language
    5. Asiatic influence
    6. Greek nation + myth of greek nation

    The first greek nation lived only in three habitats:

    greekdialects800bcs.jpg

    As we can see there was no so-called "greek epirus" nor "greek macedonia"

    Epirus and Macedonia were part of Pelasgian-Illyrian-Thracian substratum.

    I don know where Greeks come from but they are comers in the Balkan.

    As for Magna Graecia, it was a colony after 8-th century, but Illyrians lived in Italy before Greeks.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Pre-Adam
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Pre-Eva

    Ethnic group
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    Country: Montenegro



    that's interesting, i think southern albanians should admit that they descend from ancient preistoric greek population (look at albania tribes map), for example here there is the aknowledgement that southern italy was once magna graecia, but it doesn't stop southern italian to be italians.
    Wrong parallelle. Epirus is definitely illyrian nation in ancient times. They had illyrian names, illyrian names of tribes, and were not greeks. Greek language was just a lingua franca, as it was in all mediterranean.

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    that's interesting, greek languages and people expanded recently in the balkans.
    indeed corfu (part of epirus) is considered more albanian than greek.

    For example Pirro, the King of Epirus invaded italy from here:

    and it says it was inabiated by illyrians (also it correspond to almost all modern albania)

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    in italy the illyrians population inhabitated Apulia, they were called iapygians (and were divided in Dauni, Messapi and Peucetii tribes).

    do you think that the messapian inscription i posted days before here, could have affinity with modern albanian?

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    there are even some strange connections between sardinia and ancient illyria (albania),
    in the ancient vocabulary of pre-roman sardianian populations:

    sardo:eni ‘albero del tasso’= albanese enjë ‘albero del tasso’
    sardo:alase ‘agrifoglio, pungitopo, gramigna’ (in sardo: laruspinosu ’alloro spinoso’) =albanese halë ‘spina’ halëz ‘spina’
    sardo: lothiu ‘fangoso’, topp: Lotzorai, Lothorgo, Loceri, Lotzeri = albanese lloç ‘fanghiglia’
    sardo: dròb(b)alu ‘intestino dei suini’ = albanese drobolì ‘intestino’
    sardo: urtzula ‘clematide’, top. Urtzulei = albanese hurdh ‘edera’

    could it be an I haplogroup connection???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    Wrong parallelle. Epirus is definitely illyrian nation in ancient times. They had illyrian names, illyrian names of tribes, and were not greeks. Greek language was just a lingua franca, as it was in all mediterranean.
    Greek was lingua franca after alexander not before. Epirus was greek, deal with it, albainians wouldn't venture down south untill the middle ages. Ancient greeks were a melting pot of differnt peoples.


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    it's curious there is a greek city called Thyrreion in that map, like Thyrrenian, etruscans

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    Example of and ancient epirus tribe: the Chaonians

    The Chaonians (Greek: Χάονες, Chaones), were an ancient Greek[1] tribe that inhabited the region of Epirus in the north-west of modern Greece and southern Albania. On their southern frontier lay another Epirote kingdom, that of the Molossians, to their southwest stood the kingdom of the Thesprotians, and to their north lived the Illyrian tribes. According to Virgil, Chaon was the eponymous ancestor of the Chaonians.[2] By the 5th century BC, they had conquered and combined to a large degree with the neighboring Thesprotians and Molossians. The Chaonians were part of the Epirote League until 170 BC when their territory was annexed by the Roman Republic.

    According to Strabo, the Chaonians (along with the Molossians) were the most famous among the fourteen tribes of Epirus, because they once ruled over the whole of Epirus.[3] The Illyrians occupied the coastal and hinterland regions further north; however, the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax[4] makes a clear distinction between the Chaonians and the Illyrian tribes. The Illyrians and Chaonians appear to have had — at least at times — a confrontational relationship; Polybius recounts a devastating raid mounted in 230 BC by the Illyrians against Phoenice, the chief city of the Chaonians. The incident had major political ramifications. Many Italian traders who were in the town at the time of the sacking were killed or enslaved by the Illyrians, prompting the Roman Republic to launch the first of the two Illyrian Wars the following year.[5]\

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians

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    I don't know what's with albanians and Skopians claiming ancient greek tribes but it has to stop, if I were to guess they both have an expansionist mindset. This is ironic because of what might happen in FYROM soon ;)

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    well could be eprirus in the end a region inhabitated both by greek tribes and illyrians tribes? like in the sense of modern histria inhabitated by a caos of different ethnies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    well could be eprirus in the end a region inhabitated both by greek tribes and illyrians tribes? like in the sense of modern histria inhabitated by a caos of different ethnies?
    Yes it seems like this is the most logical answer, but people like to think in absolutes which is probably not the right way of going about it. There were greek towns in Illyria proper like Apollonia and epidamus which is not surprising greeks were very big colonisers in those days.

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    according to the only genetical map that analized both greeks and albanians, greeks and albanians do cluster quite toghether genetically (in some case they are the same population) only albanians clusters a bit more in the north with other balkanians, but the bulk of the clusters is greco-albanian

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    Take a look at the nice graph maciamo put together;

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

    Greece and albanians don't differ that much genetically. Acutally, depending on where you come from in greece you are very quite different from each other, similar to how depending on which part of Italy you come from you have differnt genetics. Northern Greeks are similar with balkanic people, southern greeks with near eastern, western greeks with albanian.

    On a side note, I like how Skopians cluster with bulgarians so closely.

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    indeed, it indicates a common bulk of origin (it could be very ancient and not recorded in history).
    even if genetic research on multiple markers like the map i posted are more scentifically accurate (haplogroups are just one single gene, maps analizes more genes)
    Did greeks came only from the balkans, only from western asia, or from both (multiple origin balkans with west asia immigrations)?

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    Ancient Greeks and Greece was a melting pot of different people, they came from everywhere, we're talking from north, east, south, and west. Being greek then is the same as it is now, it's an ethos.

    Maciamo did I nice write-up of the differnt ancient peoples here;

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...ighlight=greek

    "Greco-Romans

    The Ancient Greeks were an admixture of European and Near-Eastern people. The paternal side shows a strong Near-Eastern component, making modern Greek Y-DNA closer to Turkish, Syrian, Lebanese and even Iraqi one than to that of Western or Northern Europe. According to Y-DNA frequencies observed in Europe, Southern Italy and the Balkans were heavily settled by the Ancient Greeks, or their Neolithic ancestors that did not yet call themselves "Greeks".

    We are still unsure about the original Y-DNA types of the Romans, but due to the proximity of the Greek colonies, and the fact that Etruscans were also of Near Eastern origins, it is likely that the Romans were an admixture of Near-Eastern J2, G2 and E3b with the native Italo-Celtic R1b. As the Romans played a major role in spreading Near-Eastern haplogroups in and north of the Alps, I will refer to the J2-G2-E3b admixture as Greco-Roman, and the Italic R1b just as "Celtic". Haplogroup G2 correlates strongly with the spread of J2 with a ratio of 1 G2 for 3 J2 in average, suggesting that these haplogroups spread together from Anatolia, while the European E3b had a different origin (probably in the Balkans)."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    These features cannot be expressed with words, but you can see with ur eyes. But in the whole Serbs and Slavo-Macedones are darker than Albanians.

    It is the contrary. Greeks in the begining didnt exist. The greek nation was created on the Pelasgian substratum, and Pelasgians have all words realted to today albanian language.

    The greek nation for the first time was created in the 8 century. It is the inevtion of the:

    1. Alphabet
    2. Great Temples
    3. Delphi
    4. Greek language
    5. Asiatic influence
    6. Greek nation + myth of greek nation

    The first greek nation lived only in three habitats:

    greekdialects800bcs.jpg

    As we can see there was no so-called "greek epirus" nor "greek macedonia"

    Epirus and Macedonia were part of Pelasgian-Illyrian-Thracian substratum.

    I don know where Greeks come from but they are comers in the Balkan.

    As for Magna Graecia, it was a colony after 8-th century, but Illyrians lived in Italy before Greeks.
    Some people do not understand that Illyrians came after Greeks

    There is no Illyrian,

    all Data prove that J2 and E-V13 moved from Greece to peloponese

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html


    If you can read English Neander then you find truth, and stop Bullshit

    it Seems that ancients Illyrians were Greek Brother from the Pelasgic Brance of Greeks
    Modern Albanians Came from Transylvania area Alba Lullia, a place were Cumans lived
    as house of Anju is connected with Cumans and Hunjadi also


    simply in Greece lived Thracians, and Pelasgic came,
    Pelasgic travell north west to area of Celts
    Thracian + Pelasgic made Greek Culture
    Celtic +pelasgic made ancient Illyrian Culture


    later Maniakes general of Byzantines who was leader of south western troops
    big armies in Byzantines were called Arberoi
    same name we Found in Ceasaria of Pontus and Cappadokia as Arbaru
    pontic Greeks and cappadokians are called Auts
    Arberians are called Arnauts
    MAniakes army base in City of Arbanon but mainly resposible for area sicily to taranto
    Maniakes revolt to Polis and his army left Headlless
    Progon try to Connect Maniakes Strong Army and create a state
    But mainly that Army worked as Merceneries to Serbs Normands etc

    Arbanites accept invitation and moved to Attica at 1200 about
    Arbanites are mainly Locals connected with ancient Illyrians
    Arberesh also

    BUT

    The Arbereshe Y-chromosome variation was investigated by sampling individuals from different villages of the Pollino area (Calabria) who bear one of the founding surnames of the population. The genotyping was performed using 12 microsatellites (STRs) and 31 unique event polymorphisms (UEPs), defining, respectively, haplotypes and haplogroups. The Italian and Balkan genetic backgrounds were explored using the large amount of data provided by recent Y-chromosome studies in the two peninsulas and by literature data on STRs from forensic research

    The presence of F*(xG,I,J,K) in Albanians is interesting as this occurs in Romania and Bosnia Herzegovina (all groups), and in South Apulia, It could potentially be haplogroup H and may reflect a Gypsy element that was not present when the Arbereshe moved to Italy from the Balkans.

    The scarcity of J2 chromosomes in the Arbereshe sample (1/40) is very difficult to explain, given that they are very common in both the Italian peninsula and the southern Balkans. Literature data on J2 indicate that most of the haplotypes included in the Balkan (B) cluster of the network (Figure 3) have an STR configuration consistent with the J2-M12 sub-clade (Di Giacomo et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004; Cruciani et al. 2007). In contrast, most of the haplotypes in the other clusters agree with the STR configuration given for the J2-M67 clade, with its sub-clade J2-M92 (Di Giacomo et al. 2004). It is unconvincing to attribute the rarity of J2 in the Arbereshe to random sampling or to the effect of genetic drift. Furthermore, the Arbereshe sample analysed by Semino et al. (2004) also completely lacks the typically Balkan J2-M12 chromosomes. If we interpret our Arbereshe sample as representative of the founding Albanian population, we may hypothesize that the J2 haplogroup was considerably less diffuse in the southern Balkans five centuries ago than today.


    What we can conclude from this study is that the founding Albanian population was J2- and I2a- lite compared to modern Albanians. The source for the I2a seems to be either the Albanization of people from the West Balkans and/or selection, although it would be difficult to see a massive increase in frequency in only five centuries. The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) their historical obscurity until the last millennium, and (ii) the paucity of native sea terms and Greek loanwords in Albanian, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.

    it is genetically proved that Modern Albanians etc are Transylvanian and not Illyrian
    (a friend here knows the Families name that came from Romania)


    The source of J2 is less clear, and could be either the Albanization of Greeks (the only Balkan population with a sizeable J2 frequency) or remnants of Muslim Anatolians from Ottoman times. However, modern Albanians belong mainly to clade J2b, while Anatolians belong to J2a. Thus, I tend to dismiss the Anatolian connection.


    As in Fact Tosk are Albanized Greeks and that is Nobody can Deny it
    Proven by gennetic

    The low frequency of R1*x(R1a1) in the Arbereshe, together with the high E1b1b1a frequency are quite convincing of the Balkan origins of this population.



    Now about E-V13

    Nea Nikomedeia 8
    149
    1725 BC 2470 BC Sesklo/Dimini 20
    71
    225 AD 130 BC Lerna Franchthi 20
    120
    1000 BC 1600 BC Crete 13
    68
    300 AD 40 BC Haplozone 103
    134
    1350 BC 2020 BC Aromuns (12) 32
    71
    225 AD 130 BC Aromuns (8) 32
    73
    175 AD 190 BC Slavomacedonians (12) 13
    51
    725 AD 470 AD Slavomacedonians (8) 13
    59
    525 AD 230 AD Albanians (12) 9
    70
    250 AD 100 BC Albanians (8) 9
    59
    525 AD 230 AD
    Albanians also coalesce to Roman/Late Antique times, consistent with the idea that their high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 (which reaches very high numbers in e.g. Kosovars) is not associated with high diversity. Founder effects in that time frame are the reason for the high frequency of E-V13 in them.

    Finally, Slavomacedonians from the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia coalesce well into AD times, at around the time of the first Slavic arrivals in the Balkans. This suggests that E-V13 in them is the result of local founders at around that time who adopted the Slavic language. However, Pericic et al. (2005) (see below) report high (but unspecified) diversity of E-M78α in "Macedonia", so it is possible that a larger number of earlier inhabitants were absorbed.

    The age and distribution of E-V13 chromosomes suggest that expansions of the Greek world in the Bronze and later ages were the major causes of its diffusion.

    Who was the E-V13 patriarch in Greece? He was perhaps one of the legendary figures of Greek mythology some of whom are said to have come from abroad. For whatever reason, his progeny grew, and were around to participate in the expansion of the Mycenaean world and the subsequent Greek colonization.

    Danaus

    An additional piece of evidence is Y-chromosome distribution in Calabria, a Southern Italian region with well-known Greek connections. According to Semino et al. (2004) [Am. J. Hum. Genet. 74:1023–1034, 2004], the Calabrian sample has an E-M78 frequency of 16.3%, whereas "Calabria 2" representing the "Albanian community of the Cosenza province" has only 5.9%. This is consistent with the idea that E-V13 in modern Albanians is to a great degree due to Greek founders (Epirotes or ancient colonists).


    Y-chromosomes of Albanian populations (Ferri et al. 2010)

    This is a very important study as it shows (for the first time) some detail on Albanian populations. From a first reading of the evidence, we can say that:

    • the Ghegs resemble Kosovar Albanians in having a higher frequency of E1b1b1.
    • Tosks on the other hand have a higher frequency of I.
    • The high J2 frequency resembles Greeks, with the expected 10 to 1 or so ratio between J2 and J1, and is dissimilar from northwestern Balkan populations. Past studies have shown however, that J2b is dominant in Albanian, rather than J2a which is dominant in most Greek populations tested so far (although J2b is also represented).
    • Similar frequencies to Greeks are also found in R1.
    • There is also a relative paucity of G compared to Greeks, and limited introgression of Gypsy chromosomes (H1) in the main Albanian groups (Gheg and Tosk).


    Y chromosome variation at 12 STR (the Powerplex® Y system core set) and 18 binary markers was investigated in two major (the Ghegs and the Tosks) and two minor (the Gabels and the Jevgs) populations from Albania (Southern Balkans). The large proportion of haplotypes shared within and between groups makes the Powerplex 12-locus set inadequate to ensure a suitable power of discrimination for the forensic practice. At least 85% of Y lineages in the Jevgs, the cultural minority claiming an Egyptian descent, turned out to be of either Roma or Balkan ancestry. They also showed unequivocal signs of a common genetic history with the Gabels, the other Albanian minority practising social and cultural Roma traditions.

    About Gorani people Tombes :
    A specific DNA mutation which emerged about 2,000 years ago on a rare haplotype is characteristic Its frequency increased as a consequence of high genetic drift within this population. This indicates that are an isolated population with limited contacts with their neighbours. The DNA tree line of Pomaks suggests the hypothesis that Pomaks are descendants of ancient Thracian tribes


    Arbano People as merceneries allied with Tarantines, Normans, Anju, Romanians-Cumans Hunjadi, and about 1200-1400 a population moved from Alba Lullia
    to cover the space of Arbanites who moved to Athens
    That is why Anna komnani and Attaleiates names name as Arbanites until 1280 and later as albanites

    Illyria is a Greek-Pelasgic word after Illyrus Father of Celtus means Sun light or Sun-Ra or Sunny sky
    Illyros son of Cadmus invaded Illyria who was habited by celts
    That is why Illyrian language has pelasgic words and celtic

    Besides it is other area Illyria and ather Illyricum

    They were the Taulantii, the Pleraei, the Endirudini, Sasaei, Grabaei and the Labeatae. These later joined to form the Docleatae.

    Illyrii Proprie Dicti
    Wilkes 1995,

    No Chaonians no Molloseans No Makedonians NO Epirotes

    Chaonians Molloseans were Pelasgic pure no celto no thraco pelasgic
    Makedonians were Greeks


    so Neander since you are Illyrians why you change your language from Centum (messapic and ancient Illyrian and Pelasgic) To Satem ->Balto-slavic?
    Why the most % of modern Albanian is Slavo-Baltic connected with Bulgarian and serbian and offcourse Roman (rome + Romania)

    Neander even Genetic proves the opposite you claim
    History says other,
    Genetic say other
    so go to your transylvanian Friend (you know who)
    and stop claiming
    cause the truth is other.

    we all know who is behind these nonesence you claim



    Epirotans were Greeks
    Chaonians were Pelasgic
    Makedonians were Greek


    Understand that

    Pelasgic +thracian create Greek culture
    Pelasgic + Celtic created ancient Illyrian culture
    Modern Albanians have connection with Transylvania and moved after 1200 AD
    the way is known to both

    Albanian is a modern nation that founded at 1040 by Maniakes revolt and has nothing to do with ancient Illyria
    Albanian language is mostly connected with Slavo-Baltic and Romano-Celtic than Pelasgic and Thracian
    only in dardania you find some thracian,

    so stop unproved theories

    E-V13 came from south to North
    J2b came from south to North

    both are connected with Greece and pelasgic
    Accept it
    The I Ydna in albania is connected with celtic and Transylvania Alba Lullia

    there is no Illyrian southern than scumbi river, and lake Lychnitis
    Celtic were above Labeatae of Illyria Dicti proprie

    and a part of Albanians comes from Carpathean chordes



  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    Ancient Greeks and Greece was a melting pot of different people, they came from everywhere, we're talking from north, east, south, and west. Being greek then is the same as it is now, it's an ethos.
    Elias 2 I don't believe that is so much melting,
    history proves other,
    if you read my other post as also the post about dorians then you see
    that Europe was conquered from south to north and from east to west,
    not from central to south

    The doric -Illyrian invasion is a myth and a false theory,
    cause Dinaric I2 is not that spread in Greek colonies and Lakonia
    But in East Makedonia and Agrinio (find Endymion) mother land of Thracians Agrianes
    Doric people never invade Greek thrace so it is Thracian connected

    in fact History proves why in north peloponese E-V13 has Bigger ratio than in Laconia (expel of achaic to north)

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    its use has been strongly discouraged at schools through physical punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    Julia there are still alot of greeks in southern albania. The actual numbers arn't clear due to distorted data.
    I gave an answer some posts before about this issue! But it seems you cannot accept the truth. However, I will bring documents showing another reality. What you do not know or do not want to know. Then , the readers will judge!
    http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html
    Report
    -
    THE ARVANITES
    General data on the language
    Arvanites are those whose mother tongue is Arvanitika (name in Greek - Áñâáíßôåò)/ Arberichte (name in their language); most linguists use the word Albanian for that language, but the community loathes its use, and it is therefore advisable that this sensitivity be taken into consideration unless researchers and/or human and minority rights activists do not mind alienating the very community they are studying. Likewise, they call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arberor (in their language); but in Northwestern Greece, in their language, they use the term Shqiptar (the same used by Albanians of Albania), a term strongly disliked by the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians.
    Nevertheless, Arvanitika belongs to the linguistic family of Albanian, and it has evolved from one of the two linguistic groups of Albanian, the South Albanian Tosk (the other is the North Albanian Gheg). Arvanitika has a dialectical richness: there are three different groups of dialects spoken, one in Thrace, one in Northwestern Greece (near the Albanian border), and one in Central and Southern Greece. The latter, which includes the vast majority of speakers of Arvanitika in Greece, has by itself a great dialectical variety which makes some of these dialects to be, or to be perceived by the speakers as, mutually unintelligible (Nakratzas, 1992:86; Trudgill et al., 1975:44; Tsitsipis, 1983:297; Williams, 1992:85). Along with Vlachs, Macedonians, and Roma, Arvanites in Greece argue whether they should use the Greek or the Latin alphabet to write their language, which has rarely been written (Gerou, 1994a; Kazazis, 1994).
    Most Arvanites have traditionally lived in Central and Southern Greece: in most departments of the regions of Continental Greece (Sterea Ellada) and the Peloponnese (including especially most islands corresponding to these areas) and the Cyclades island of Andros. Arvanites also live near the Albanian border, in most departments of Epirus and in the Florina and Kastoria departments of Macedonia; also, in the border (with Turkey) department of Evros (in Thrace) and in the Salonica department (where they settled along with other Orthodox refugees from Eastern Thrace, in the 1920’s). Like the rest of the population, since the 1950s, Arvanites have been emigrating from their villages to the cities and especially to the capital Athens, which, incidentally, was a mainly Albanian (Arvanite) small town in the early 1800’s, before becoming the Greek state’s capital (Nakratzas, 1992:87-8). It appears that urbanization has been leading to the loss of the use of the language, which has been surviving more in the traditional villages.
    There have not been any official statistics on this as well as on any other minority group in Greece since 1951 (and the statistics before then are generally considered unreliable, reflecting mostly only those with a strong ethnic consciousness). Today, the best estimate for the people who speak the language and/or have an Arvanite consciousness is that they number around 200,000. Trudgill (1983:128) gives an estimate of 140,000 for the speakers in Attica and Beotia, a figure also mentioned in Hill (1990:135). For the Arvanites in the Northwest, a figure of 30,000 is given by Ciampi (1985:87), who also puts the figure for the total group at 156,000-201,000. Some members of the community give much higher figures, around 1,600,000 (Kormoss, 1994:1; and Gerou, 1994b:2): this figure may correspond to all Greeks who have some Arvanite ancestry, but certainly not to the current speakers and those with a similar consciousness. Like all other minority languages, except Turkish, Arvanitika has no legal status in Greece and is not taught at any level of the educational system.
    Moreover, there are no media in Arvanitika, though in some Attica radio stations some Arvanitika songs can be heard. Arvanites are Orthodox Christians (many belong to the Old-Calendarist ‘Genuine Orthodox’ Church); their church services are held in Greek, with some rare exceptions of Gospel reading in Arvanitika at Easter. Even Arvanite cultural activities appear to be limited. Tsitsipis has reported only occasional folklore festivals, music and poetry contests (Tsitsipis, 1983 & 1994). Since the 1980’s, there has been a creation of Arvanite cultural associations and publication of a magazine and some books on Arvanite culture (very little though published in the language). In some areas, Easter Gospel is read in Arvanitika (Gerou, 1994a). Perhaps the most significant -for the large public- venture is the release of the CD -with an attached explanatory booklet- Arvanitic Songs (FM Records, 1994).
    History of the community and the language
    The first Christian Albanian migrations to what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1). So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece.
    Very little is known about the Albanian presence in Thrace; it was probably a spill-over of the many migrations mentioned above. Anyhow, there were many Albanians in Eastern Thrace and in the adjacent Western Thrace department of Evros. The former, as Christians, were relocated in Greece during the compulsory exchange of Christians and Muslims between modern-day Turkey and Greece in the 1920’s: many settled in the Salonica department.
    As for the Arvanites of Epirus and Western Macedonia, they are considered to be part of the modern Albanian nation (Banfi, 1994:20), something which perhaps explains their self-identification as Shqiptars rather than Arberor. When frontiers were drawn up in the early XX century, some Christian and Muslim Albanians were left in Greek territory, just as some Greeks were left in Albanian territory. An important part of these Albanians, the Muslim Chams, fled Greece towards the end of World War II, as many had collaborated with the occupying forces and were, as a result, persecuted by Greek resistance.
    When the modern Greek state was formed, the Albanian-speaking population and its language were called Albanian, even if those Christian Albanians were considered an integral part of the Greek nation and had played a decisive role in the War of Independence between 1821-1828 (Bartholdy, 1993; Bickford-Smith, 1993: 47; Embeirikos, 1994; Vakalopoulos, 1994:243-249). However, the policy of the new Greek state was to Hellenize all the non-Greek speaking Orthodox populations within its, then limited, territory as well as in the territories of Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace and Asia Minor still under Ottoman rule, which were though considered as part of Greek irredenta; the other Balkan countries (Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, and later Albania) had also followed similar policies. As elsewhere in Europe, army and education were the most effective mechanisms of Hellenization, assisted by the judiciary system ready to denounce and punish all forms of behavior inconsistent with the state’s nationalist culture (Kitromilidis, 1990:38; Kollias, 1994).
    It is noteworthy to point out though, that, before the definite development of modern Albanian nationalism, there were efforts in the 1870’s to include most Albanians under Ottoman rule in a Greek-Albanian kingdom (Castellan, 1991:333; Vakalopoulos, 1994: 243-249), just as others appealed to them for their inclusion in an Albanian-Vlach Macedonian state (Berard, 1987:292-333). The Albanians’ fear of an eventual assimilation by the Greeks led to the failure of the former effort.
    The result of the Hellenization policy -which was to take a very oppressive turn during the Metaxas dictatorship (1936-1940)- was that Albanian Greeks, especially after the emergence of Albanian nationalism and of the Albanian state, felt that they had to ‘constantly prove their Greekness.’ Hence, their very conservative political behavior: they had traditionally been royalists and, in large numbers, adhered to the Old Calendarist Orthodox Christian Church, which -when the split in the Greek Church over the introduction of the new calendar took place in the 1920’s- was originally supported by the royalist forces. Moreover, and more important for the survival of their language, they have distanced themselves from the Albanians to the extent that most consider today offending to be called Albanians: they have preferred the term Arvanite (Arberor in their own language) for the people and Arvanitika (Arberichte) for the language, as opposed to Albanian (Shqiptar for the people and Shqip for the language) that Albanians use for themselves and their language -with the exception of the Arvanites of Northwestern Greece, as mentioned above. This attitude may also explain the efforts of some intellectuals of the Arvanite community to trace Arvanites’ and Arvanitika’s roots back to the prehistoric inhabitants of Greece, the Pelasgians and their language, so as to claim indigenous status (Williams, 1992:87; Gerou, 1994b; Thomopoulos, 1912).
    Trudgill (1994) has shown that, in Greece, as minority languages are all alien (Abstand) to Greek, the use of different names for them (Arvanitika rather than Albanian, Vlach rather than Romanian, Slav rather than Macedonian) has contributed to denying their heteronomy (i.e. their dependence on the corresponding standard language) and increasing their autonomy (by assigning them the status of autonomous languages). As a result, the minority language’s vulnerability grew significantly, as well as the dissociation of the speakers’ ethnic (Arvanite, Vlach, Slavophone) identities from the corresponding national identities (Albanian, Romanian, Macedonian) which have developed in the respective modern nation-states. Today, Arvanite ethnic identity is perceived by many members of the community as distinct from that of the other Greeks who have Greek as their mother tongue but as fully compatible with Greek national identity (likewise for many Vlachs and Macedonians). A similar phenomenon has helped weaken the links between Pomaks in Greece (speaking a Bulgarian-based language) and Bulgarians, and the consequent Pomaks’ assimilation into the Turkish ethnic and, by now, national identity in Western Thrace, an assimilation here detrimental to Greece’s homogenization and anti-minority policies. In another Balkan context, such attitude helped distance the literary Macedonian language standardized by Yugoslav authorities in the late 1940s from Bulgarian to which the previously spoken dialects in Yugoslav Macedonia were heteronomous.
    If Hellenization was a significant factor for the weakening of the use of Arvanitika, urbanization was another. Arvanitika had survived until recently in many homogeneous villages where most people had been using the language regularly. Those, though, who moved to the cities soon abandoned the use of the language as it was unintelligible to most other city dwellers and was even perecived as a sign of backwardness; on the other hand, the children had no way of learning the language as neither was it taught at school nor was it used regularly by family members -often grand parents- at home (Moraitis, 1994).
    Current situation of the community and the language
    Almost all information about the present concerns the bulk of the Arvanite community in Central and Southern Greece. The other two communities are hardly mentioned in the literature and have also been ignored in the 1987 European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages (EBLUL) visit to the Arvanite community in Greece, an oversight which led to at least one indirect protest letter by the Tychero municipality (Kazazis, 1994); nevertheless, a 1994 second visit by the EBLUL was again limited to the Central Greece Arvanite villages.
    Almost all speakers of Arvanitika are today bilingual, i.e. they also speak Greek, usually fluently for the younger generations (Trudgill, 1975:53). It is widely agreed that Arvanitika today have been influenced significantly by the linguistic environment in which they have evolved, sometimes for centuries, without any contact with the Albanian communities of modern day Albania. So, it has acquired a separate (Ausbau) status from Albanian, in fact with dialectical richness; nevertheless, at least partial mutual intelligibility between Arvanite and Albanian exists (Trudgill, 1994:14). Indeed, the recent (in the early 1990’s) arrival of hundreds of thousands, mainly illegal, Albanian immigrants in Greece has led to a successful test of that mutual intelligibility, when many settled in Arvanitika villages (it is also noteworthy that in these villages we have seen the two most serious incidents of beatings of Albanian immigrants).
    A comparison with standard Albanian shows that Arvanitika has suffered reduction and simplification. Reduction here means loss of: Albanian vocabulary (often replaced by Greek words duly adapted phonetically and morphologically); prepositions (sometimes replaced by Greek ones); verbal tenses; and forms. While simplification consists of loss of case forms, connecting particles and invariable verbal forms (Trudgill, 1983:115-123).
    On the other hand, Arvanitika is threatened with extinction. In the early 1970’s, more than 80% of the inhabitants of Arvanite villages in the Attica & Beotia departments were found to be fluent speakers of Arvanitika, though the loss of the language was more pronounced in the villages close to Athens than elsewhere; at the same time, however, the actual use of the language was more limited (Trudgill, 1975:56-61). Moreover, there has been a rather widespread indifference among Arvanites, as well as Vlachs and Macedonian, about the fate of their mother tongues, along with self-deprecation: they have been led by the dominant unilingual Greek culture to -usually sincerely- believe that these languages are deficient, lack proper grammatical structure, have a poor vocabulary (Trudgill, 1994:14; Tsitsipis, 1994:4). So, gradually, Arvanites have switched from bilingualism to a subordination of Arvanitika to Greek; and, sometimes, young people discourage their parents from speaking the language (especially in public). It is probably a correct estimate, although no studies equivalent to that of the 1970s exist, that the language is used today by middle aged people (interchanged with Greek) and by elderly people (in most contexts) and much less by the younger generation (usually when addressing older people, in strict family context, or, sometimes, too, to make fun of non-speakers) (Tsitsipis, 1994; Trudgill, 1983:114-5). Moreover, in the Peloponnese, it seems that the users are predominantly elderly people (Williams, 1992:85-6). Experts, therefore, agree that Arvanitika in Greece is threatened with extinction more than the equivalent Arberichte language of Southern Italy, as the latter country is more tolerant and does not feel threatened by plurilingualism (Hamp, 1978; Tsitsipis, 1983).
    Since the 1980s, some efforts to preserve Arvanite culture have been made. A congress was held in 1985. Four cultural associations have been created: the Arvanitikos Syndesmos Hellados (the Arvanite League of Greece) which has been publishing, since 1983, the bimonthly Besa (in Greek); the Kentro Arvanitikou Politismou (Center for Arvanite Culture); the Arvanitikos Syllogos Ano Liosion (Arvanite Association of Ano Liosia); and the Syllogos Arvaniton Corinthias (Association of Arvanites of Corinthia). Books on Arvanite culture have been published. Church reading and chanting in some Arvanite villages has been reported (Williams, 1992:87). Finally, we had the release of a CD with Arvanite music mentioned above. Overall, though, this movement is weaker than similar ones among Vlachs and Macedonians (and certainly among officially recognized Turks).
    One reason for such a slow movement is the apparent hostility of the Greek state to such ‘revivals’ among Arvanites, Vlachs, and Macedonians, which is indicated by police disruption of festivals (in Macedonia), and harassment of musicians who play and sing songs in minority languages; as well as by the tolerance -by the state and particularly its judiciary- of public calls, printed in the press, to use violence against those musicians; likewise, human and minority rights activists have been the object of similar threats (Stohos, 20/7/1994 and in previous issues, where even the European Union’s Euromosaic project -to report on the status of the linguistic minorities in the EU- was attacked). Such hostile environment makes even the scholars’ work look suspicious: for example, Arvanites have reacted with incredulity and suspicion to scholars’ assertions that their language can be written (Tsitsipis, 1983:296-7; Trudgill, 1983:129; Williams, 1992:88). Moreover, the EBLUL’s first visit to the community was violently attacked by some community members (Williams, 1992:88) as well as in state-sponsored publications (Lazarou et al., 1993:191-193).
    Likewise, Arvanitika has never been included in the educational curricula of the modern Greek state. On the contrary, its use has been strongly discouraged at schools (and in the army) through physical punishment, humiliation, or, in recent years, simple incitation of the Arvanitika users (Williams, 1992:86; Trudgill, 1983:130-1). Such attitudes have led many Arvanite (as well as Vlach, and Macedonian) parents to discourage their children from learning their mother tongue so as to avoid similar discrimination and suffering (Trudgill, 1983:130).
    > Then, you find some greeks similar to Tosk because:


  21. #71
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    Some quotes about "THE ALBANIAN ELEMENT IN MODERN GREECE"

    1. "The [Greek] claim to southern Albania rests entirely on the assumption that the majority of the population is Greek. The Greeks are stated to number 120,000 and Albanians 80,000. But who are the ´Greeks´? At least five sixths of them, if not more are Christian Albanians of the Orthodox faith, Albanians in sentiment and language, who because they acknowledge the Patriarch of Constantinople are declared to be Greek in point of ´national consciousness´."
    ("The Nineteenth Century and After XIX-XX a Monthly Review", founded by James Knowles, Vol. LXXXVI, July-December 1919, page 645.)
    2. "Did the Greeks constitute a race apart from the Albanians the Slavs and the Vlachs? Yes and no. High school students were told that the ´other races´, i.e. the Slavs the Albanians and the Vlachs ´having been Hellenized with the years in terms of mores and customs, are now being assimilated into the Greeks´."
    ("Greece in the 20th Century", Editors Theodore A. Couloumbis, Theodore Kariots, Fotini Bellou, page 24.)
    3. "The Turkish village which formally clustered around the base of the Acropolis [old Athens] has not disappeared: it forms a whole quarter of the town.
    An immense majority of the population in this quarter is composed of Albanians."
    ("Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day", by Edmund About, page 160.)
    4. "Through the end of the revolution in 1830, Greeks, including most of the nineteenth-century nationalists, seemed to have had a vague but firm sense of continuity from ancient to modern Greece, though this was not articulated in racial terms but on the basis of a common language, history and consciousness. In effect at this time, whoever called themselves a Greek was a Greek. It is because of this that many Greek-speaking Albanians, Slavs, Rumanians and Vlachs were easily assimilated and indeed became important players in Greek patriotism at the time." ("The Empty Cradle of Democracy", by Alexandra Halkias, page 59.)
    5. "The first Greek who had a plan for insurrection and for a liberated Greece was Rhigas of Valestino.
    Rhigas was the author of poems, revolutionary proclamations and a constitution…
    In this document he spoke of a sovereign people of the proposed state as including ´without distinction of religion and language – Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs, Armenians, Turks and every other race´.
    It seems that in their minds the distinction between ´Greek´ and ´Orthodox´ was still blurred."
    ("Appleton´s Annual Cyclopedia and register of important events 1901", Third Series Volume VI, page 113.)
    6. "There cannot be an Athenian alive today who can trace a direct line of descent from classical times to the present day without leaving Athens. Because of numerous and protracted foreign occupations, true Athenians were a relatively small minority even in the Age of Pericles. In a later period, the city was suffering from severe depopulation and was re-stocked with Albanians. At the time of Greek independence in 1834, Athens was a miserable village with a population of only 6,000." ("Insight Guides Athens Greece Series", page 42.)
    7. "It is one of a group made famous in the Greek revolution of 1821 by the bravery of its Albanian settlers, in defense of a country which they had never adopted for their own till this moment of danger came.
    They brought to it moreover, the hoarded wealth of many years. Albanian captains, Albanian ships and Albanian gold became the strength of the Greek and the dread of the Turk. The successful close of the revolution found them as firmly allied with the Greek nationality as they have been previously alien to it, and there are now no names more honoured and beloved in Athens, no families more influential in its polite circles, than those of the Albanian leaders in the war of 1821, the Tombazis, the Miaulis the Condouriottis."
    ("The Atlantic Monthly: A magazine of literature, science, art and politics Vol. XLIX, January 1882, page 31.)
    8. "Among the numerous islands of the Egian, arise several barren rocks, some of which are however gifted by nature with small and commodious heavens. Of this number are Hydra, Spezzia and Ipsara, the first two close to the Eastern shore of the Peloponnesus, and the latter not far from Scio, on the Asiatic coast. Tyranny and Want had driven some families, whose origin, like that of nearly all the peasants, who inhabited proper Greece, was Albanian, to take refuge on these desolate crags, where they built villages and sought a precarious existence by fishing."
    ("The Greek Revolution; in origin and progress", by Edward Blaquiere Esq., page 21.)
    9. "In reality however, just before the Greek war of independence, most Greeks still referred to themselves as ´Romans. Vlachavas, the priest rebel leader who rose against the Ottomans, declared, ´A Romneos I was born a Romneos I will die."
    ("Bloodlines from the Ethnic Pride to Ethnic Terrorism", by Vamik Volkan, page 121.)
    10. "Constantinople and all continental Greece were for centuries ruled and occupied by the Romans, and during many subsequent centuries invaded and colonized by Slavs. The Crusades and the Latin conquest brought a large influx of western Europeans, commonly called Franks, and, in later times, extensive Albanian settlements were made in Greek districts. Clearly, the modern Greek must be of very mixed blood."
    ("Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, page 267.)
    11. "But it has been argued that since the modern day Greeks are not the descendents of the ancient Greeks: ´The Star of Vergina is not a Greek symbol, except in the sense that it happens to have been found in the territory of the present-day Greek state…´."
    ("Experimenting with Democracy Regime change in the Balkans", edited by Geoffrey Pridham and Tom Gallagher, page 271.)
    12. "Contemporary historians state the Emperor Basilius also was a Sclavonian; many cities bearing Sclavonian appellations still exist in Greece, as, for instance, Platza, Stratza, Lutzana,…"
    ("The Foreign Quarterly Review Vol. XXVI", published in October M. DCCC. XL., 1841, page 73.)
    13. "By the fourteenth century Orthodox Christian Arvanites had made their way into the Greek thema of the Byzantine Empire, which largely comprised the land that now constitutes Greece. They first came to Attica as early as 1883…They did not complete their immigration until 1759, when Sultan Murat III offered them land in Athens…Thus the Arvanites were already inhabiting Athens when the city became the capital of Greece in 1834."
    ("Fragments of Death Fables of Identity An Athenian Anthropography" by Nani Panourgia, page 27.)
    14. "I have already said, and I will repeat it, that not one-fifth of the present population can with justice be called Greeks. The remainder are Slavonians, Albanians and Turks, with a slight infusion of Venetian blood."
    ("Travels in Greece and Russia", by Bayard Tailor, 1872, page 262.)
    15. "It should be stressed, however, that the Greeks as an ethnic community during this period [1840´s] included many Grecophone or Hellenized Vlachs, Serbs or Orthodox Albanians."
    ("Greece and the Balkans Identities, Perceptions and Cultural Encounters since the Enlightenment", edited by Dimitris Tziovas, page6.)
    16. "All Greek soldiers are required to be able to read and write, and if a conscript on joining has not acquired those rudiments of education, he is put to school. Not withstanding, the educational efforts of the government, as many as 30 percent proven fifteen years or so ago to be completely illiterate, while not more than 25 per cent had advanced beyond the ´three R´s´. This may be partly accounted for by the fact that these conscripts included both Albanians from the settlements in Attica and other parts of the Kingdom and pastoral Koutso-Vlachs, all of whom habitually speak their own dialects and learn Greek only as a foreign tongue."
    ("Greece of the Hellenes", by Lucy M. J. Garnett, 1914, pages 33 and 34.)
    17. "I could speak Turkish, and the Macedonian dialect, besides my own Greek tongue, and as a curious boy in the holidays I had been here and there, wishing to know more of the world round me and the people who lived in other villages than mine.
    Being neither Turkish nor Greek, we called them Bulgarian, but their language is not Bulgarian, but the Macedonian dialect, and I found lovable people among them, honest, hospitable and kind."
    ("When I was a Boy in Greece" by George Demetrios, pages 131 and 132.)
    18. "The migration of the Albanians is the best attested and in many ways the most instructive of migrations into Greece….
    We had difficulty staying because they were rather suspicious of us, but we stayed with a man who talked Greek as his main language, although he talked to his wife in Albanian…
    The ancestors of these people probably came to the Epidaurus in the fourteenth or fifteenth century, but they were still talking Albanian as their mother tongue in 1930….
    Albanian was the language they talked among themselves, but they could also talk Greek. This was their second language although they lived in Greece….
    The one in Epirus which was still Albanian in its customs and its language had probably been there since about 1400…
    A group of 10,000 Albanians with their families and their flocks appeared there, and asked if they could be admitted to the Peloponnesus. They were accepted by Theodore, who was the principle ruler of the Peloponnesus…"
    ("Greece Old and New", by Nicholas Hammond, edited by Tom Winnifrith and Penelope Murray, Pages 39 to 44.)
    19. "…so, in the Middle Ages, these Albanian mountaineers have brought both war like spirit, bright costume, and beauty of person, to refresh the Hellenic race. There are still, even in Attica, districts where Albanian is the common language; there are Albanian names famous in Greek annals, especially in the great war of independence (1821-1831) and even among the sailors of Hydra, so famed for their commercial enterprise and their deeds of war, the chief families were Albanian in origin."
    ("Greek Pictures drawn with pen and pencil" by J. P. Mahaffy, M.A. D.D., 1890, pages 20 and 21.)
    20. "Groups of men in stately Albanian costume, with their grand walk and graceful air, stalk up and down with eastern impassibility, price an article, call for a ´fotia´ (brazier of coals for lighting cigarettes) , at the cafés, or converse in the strange patois of Greece about the last conclusion of the ´vouli´ or house of delegates."
    ("Greek Vignettes a sail in the Greek Seas, Summer of 1877", by James Albert Herrison, page 148.)
    21. "In the 1770´s a fiery Orthodox preacher, the monk Kosmas of Aetolia, tried to stem the tide of mass conversions to Islam in the Northern Greek lands by founding Greek schools in a score of villages in Thessaly, Epirus and Macedonia, where the language had long been abandoned for Albanian, Vlach or Slav, and obliged peasants to speak only Greek."
    ("Greece the Modern Sequel from 1821 to the Present", by John S. Koliopoulos and Thanos M. Veremis, page 159.)
    22. "…following the alleged discovery of Slavic buildings by the German excavator at Olympia. The claims were answered by Paparrigopoulos himself, by reinstating his 1843 position that there was indeed a Slavic presence in the Peloponnesus in the Middle Ages, but that the Greeks need not worry because the Slavs were culturally absorbed…"
    ("The Nation and its Ruins", by Yannis Hamilakis, page 115.)
    23. "In 1358 the Albanians overran Epirus, Acarnania and Anatolia and established two principalities under their leaders…
    Naupactas fell into their control in 1378…
    Other Albanians and Vlachs invaded the Catalan principality of Boeotia and Attica, and a great many Albanians settled there as peasant-farmers in 1368 and later….
    The penetration of the Greek mainland which we have described occurred during the hundred or more years after 1325."
    ("Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas", by Nicholas G. L. Hammond, page 59.)
    24. "When arriving by airplane at Athens, one lands at the new airport at Spata. Spata is a town situated in the Messogia region that bears and Arvanite name that means ´axe´ or ´sword´ (in Greek ´spaps´, spaya from which derives the Albanian Spata). The term ´Arvanite´ is the medieval equivalent of ´Albanian´. It is retained today for the descendants of the Albanian tribes that migrated to the Greek lands during the period covering two centuries, from the thirteenth to the fifteenth."
    ("Hellenism Culture, Identity, and Ethnicity from Antiquity to Modernity", edited by Katerina Zacharia, page 230.)
    25. "With them it would be a resurrection, accomplished, no doubt, after vast pains and many troubles, the more so since the Greeks are a composite people among whom the descendents of the veritable Greeks of old are in great minority. The majority are of Albanian and Suliot blood, races which even the Romans found untamable."
    ("In Greek Waters: a story of the Grecian War of Independence (1821-1827), by G. A. Henty, 1893, page 40.)
    26. "Where are we to look for the descendents of the Greeks of old? Travelers tell us that, as late as the sixteenth century, Athens was but a castle with a small village; and that Sparta, divided by two tribes of the Slavi, the Ezeriti and the Milingi, had not only lost her ancient name, but it was impossible to recognize the site in which she had stood of old."
    ("History of the Island of Corfu" by Henry Jervis-White Jervis ESQ., page 250.)
    27. "General interest was first aroused by a controversy as to the racial derivation of modern Greeks. The war of Independence had won the sympathy of Europe; and it was a rude shock both to Greece and to her champions when Fallmerayer announced that her inhabitants were virtually Slavs. The race of the Hellenes he declared in his ´History of the Morea´ was routed out, and Athens was unoccupied from the sixth to the tenth century. Only its literature and a few ruins survived to tell that the Greek people had ever existed. What the Slavs had began the Albanians completed."
    ("History and Historians in the Nineteenth Century", by G. P. Gooch, 1918, page 491.)
    28. "There were few Muslims here; the inhabitants largely of Albanian stock, were only imperfectly assimilated into the Greek nation…" ("Politics in Modern Greece", by Keith R. Legg, page 48.)
    "The term ´Greek´ differentiates the language spoken by inhabitants of modern Greece from the languages of the surrounding countries; but there is disagreement on what the Greek language was, is, or should be. At the time of independence, the range of local dialects was significant; substantial portions of the population spoke Albanian."
    ("Politics in Modern Greece", by Keith R. Legg, page 86.)
    29. "…followed by violence, recourse was had to arms, and the two elder brothers united against Vely, the offspring of a slave; who being forced to expatriate himself, embraced the perilous profession of those Albanian knights errant, more commonly known by the appellation of kleftes or brigands."
    ("The Life of Ali Pasha of Jannina, 1823, page 26.)
    30. "There is the case of Karamanlides, a predominantly Turkish-speaking Christian Orthodox people, who were forced to go to Greece although they did not necessarily identify ´ethnically´ with the Greeks. At the time of the exchange they numbered as many as 400,000."
    ("Mediating the Nation News, Audiences and the Politics of Identity", Mirca Madianou, page 31.)
    31, "Morea…as Fallmerayer traces it back to the Slavic word ´more´, the sea which nearly encircles the Morea. The Morea forms the most southern part of the Kingdom of Greece and is divided into the monarchies of Argolis, Corinth, Lakonis, Messenia, Archadia, Achaea and Elis.
    Overrun by the Goths and Vandals, it became prey, in the second half of the 8th c. to bands of Slavic invaders who found it wasted by war and pestilence."
    ("International Cyclopedia a Compendium of Human Knowledge", American Editor-in-Chief Richard Gleason Green, 1890, page 204.)
    32. "This point is made in almost all publications on Albanian nationalism (e.g. Skendi 1967 and 1980). In the nineteenth century, the Greek historian Constantinos Paparrigopoulos considered the Albanians a ´race´ that could be acculturated into Hellenism. His viewpoint was greatly influenced by the considerable Albanian contribution to the Greek war of independence (1821-1828)."
    ("Nationalism Globalization and Orthodoxy" by Victor Roudometof, page 156.)
    33. "Rhigas of Valentino….author of poems, revolutionary proclamations and a constitution…
    In this document he spoke of a sovereign people of the proposed state as including ´without distinction of religion and language – Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs, Armenians, Turks and every other race´."
    ("Nations and States", by Hugh Seton-Watson, page 113.)
    34. "As of 2002 more than 98,000 foreign pupils were enrolled in Greek schools, accounting for almost 9 percent of the overall school population. As regards nationality, 72 percent are from Albania.
    Clearly, Albanians are not unknown to Greeks and the new relationships emerging from the contemporary migratory context can be seen as superimposing themselves into a pre-existing trans-Balkan context."
    ("The New Albanian Migration", edited by Russell King, Nicola Mai and Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, page 155.)
    35. "Next to them in this respect are the modern Greeks, who, for the most part, are of Sclavonian origin, and, where they are not purely Sclavonian, are a cross-breed in which Sclavonian enters very largely."
    ("The Phrenological Journal and Magazine of Moral Science for the year 1843", Vol. XIV, page 246.)
    36. "The modern Greeks are largely of Slavic origin. They are not the descendents of the ancient Greeks. That noble race, greatly mixed with barbarian blood during the middle ages, was almost completely destroyed in the course of the frequent uprisings against Turkish rule. Slavic immigrants gradually repopulated the country."
    ("The Popular Science Monthly", edited by J. McKeen Cattell", Volume LXXV, July to December 1909, page 591.)
    37. "There was little interest as to the nationality of the rayahs while Turkish rule was strong. They were nearly all Christians of the Byzantine type, those in Europe at least, and were hence regarded as one people, for oriental theocracy cannot conceive of nationality apart from religion. They themselves knew the differences in their origins and in such traditions as they had: some were Slavs, some Vlachs and some Albanians…"
    ("Political Science Quarterly" edited by the faculty of science of Columbia University, Volume twenty-third, 1908, page 307.)
    38. "Since the Christian era, as we have said, a successive downpour of foreigners from the north into Greece has ensued. In the sixth century came the Avars and the Slavs, bringing death and disaster. A more potent and lasting influence upon the country was probably produced by the slower and more peaceful infiltration of the Slavs into Thessaly and Epirus from the end of the seventh century onward.
    The most important immigration of all is probably that of the Albanians, who, from the thirteenth century until the advent of the Turks incessantly overran the land."
    ("The Races of Europe a Sociological Study", by William Z. Ripley PhD, 1910, page 408.)
    39. "When the Macedonians became rulers of Greece, Athens had twenty-one thousand citizens, ten thousand resident aliens and four-hundred thousand slaves."
    ("Race or Mongrel", by Alfred P. Schultz, page 86.)
    "The resident aliens were mainly Aryan-Hemitic-Semetic-Egyptian-Negroid mongrels."
    ("Race or Mongrel", by Alfred P. Schultz, page 87.)
    "In the course of time the Hellenic blood was corrupted to a still greater extent. In 146 BC the Romans conquered Greece…When Mummius took Corinth…All the men were killed, the women and children were sold into slavery. Later the Goths invaded Greece…laid waste the land, and expelled or exterminated the inhabitants."
    ("Race or Mongrel", by Alfred P. Schultz, pages 88 and 89.)
    "The only difference between modern Greeks and the other Balkanacs lies in the fact that the environment of the modern Greeks is the environment of the Hellenes. The environment, however, has no power whatsoever to change the mongrel into a race, and the Greeks have not been changed by it." ("Race or Mongrel", by Alfred P. Schultz, page 93.)
    40. "The ethnographic record certainly shows that Rhigas could have identified as both Vlach and Greek, and even preferred one over another in different circumstances. The Koutsovlach contribution to Greek independence is well attested."
    ("Modern Greece a Cultural Poetics", by Vangelis Calotychos, page 44.)
    "He consequently never traveled to Greece to implement the second part of his plan. Like many Philhellenes and Diaspora figures Rhigas never did set foot in Greece, which was fitting for one whose image of the place bore many characteristics of a European discourse located and produced outside of the Greek mainland."
    ("Modern Greece a Cultural Poetics", by Vangelis Calotychos, page 47.)
    41. "In the last year of the 15th century, and the opening years of the 16th, when the Morea was again the battlefield of the Turks and Venetians, the occupants of the plain of Argos and portions of Attica were practically exterminated, and Albanian colonists began to reoccupy the lands."
    ("The Customs and Lore of Modern Greece", by Rennell Rodd, 1892, page 17.)
    42. "Modern Greece is so flimsy and fragile, that it goes to pieces entirely when confronted with the roughest fragment of the old. But there is very little of it, and if you choose you may see exactly what the Greeks of the 5th century saw, and, the people of Athens are, of course, no more Athenian than I am."
    ("In Byron´s Shadow Modern Greece in the English and American Imagination", by David Roessel, page 163.)
    43. "This revival also allowed the Byzantines to re-colonize the Greek mainland. The success of that effort would prove crucial to the survival of Greek culture in future centuries, after the other lands had fallen away. Having overrun nearly all the Greek mainland, the cities, and the islands by the tenth century the Slavs in Greece have been converted to Orthodox Christianity and thoroughly Hellenized."
    ("Sailing from Byzantium How a Lost Empire Shaped the World", by Colin Wells, page 184.)
    44. "The Vlachs, on the contrary, descendents of the Romanized people of the Balkan peninsula, live in considerable numbers in the mountains of northern and central Greece."
    ("The Scottish Geographical Magazine", volume XIII, 1897, page 370.)
    45. "Europe´s affinity with ancient Greece left the newborn nation of Greece in an awkward double bind. Identifying ancient Greece as the ´childhood of Europe´ Winkelmann gave the patrimony of Greece to western Europe, leaving only more modern sights of heritage to the modern Greeks. Michael Herzfeld suggests that ´the west supported the Greeks on their implicit assumption that the Greeks would reciprocally accept the role of living ancestors of European civilization´."
    ("Possessors and Possessed", by Wendy M. K. Shaw, page 66.)
    46. "It is simply not plausible to suggest that the bulk of Greek speaking Roman citizens in the Middle Ages, let alone the former Turkish subjects of 19th century Greece, ´lived like, ancient Greeks."
    ("Macedonia and Greece the Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation", by John Shea, page 95.)
    47. "Not less remarkable than the small size of Hellas was the small size of the Hellenes themselves. But it is much more easy to trace the boundaries of the one upon the modern map than it is to trace the blood of the other in the bodies of the modern inhabitants.
    We have no accurate record of the proportions of free citizens who alone constituted the true Hellenes, but they were at most a small minority among the large population of helots and slaves."
    ("The Nineteenth Century a Monthly Review", edited by James Knowles, Vol. VI, July-December 1879, page 932.)
    48. "The Albanians of Hydra and Spatsae, many of whom could not even speak Greek, regarded themselves as Greek because their allegiance was with the Orthodox Church."
    ("That Greece Might Still be Free", by William St. Clair, page 9.)
    49. "Here is the ultimate Greek tragedy: that of a country forced to treat everything familiar at the time of the nation-state´s foundation as ´foreign´ while importing a culture largely invented – or at least – redesigned by German classicists of the late eighteenth early nineteenth centuries. For many decades, and almost without interruption, Greeks were forced to put aside music, art and language that were deemed too tainted by the ´oriental´ influences of Ottoman, Arab, Slavic and Albanian culture; to forget the partially Albanian roots of Athens and its environs…"
    ("The Body Impolitic" by Michael Herzfeld, page 9.)
    50. "The philhellenes – the word means ´the admirers of the Greeks´ – who began to lobby for Greek freedom were struck by the contrast between the idea of ancient Greek freedom and the servitude of the modern Greeks, who were usually assumed to be direct descendents of Pericles and company. Philhellenes generally moved at a distance from reality: they were concerned only with the myth of Athens and were capable of ignoring anything which tended to tarnish the glamour."
    ("Athens from Ancient Ideal to Modern City", by Robin Waterfield, page 296.)
    51. "There were, however, several magnificent specimens of Greek palicars, who added to the advantage of soldier like, but rather swaggering carriage, all the accessories of their picturesque costume. Nine or ten of them performed the Albanian national dance, to the sound of a bad fiddle and a jingling guitar played with a quill for the amusement of her majesty, who did not seem enchanted with this exhibition.
    And these men, who were exposing themselves in this absurd manner, were the far-famed Colocotroni, Nikitas, surnamed the Turkofagos, or Turk eater, Makryani, Vasso of Montinegro, Nota Botsaris, and other equally celebrated."
    ("Blackwood´s Edinburgh Magazine", Vol. XLIII, January – June 1838)
    52. "When Athens was chosen as the site for the modern capital of the new nation, and its (re)construction was planned along lines of Hellenic purity, the unsettling evidence of Greece´s Ottoman heritage along with local vernacular forms had to be confronted, all the more so when situated in the immediate vicinity of remains of classical antiquity. Early nineteenth-century Athens was viewed as a ´disgraceful site´ (Boyer 1996: 163) full of imperfections, ranging from the city´s physical aspect to the spoken language that called for, ´filtering-out´ interventions."
    ("Contested Landscapes Movement, Exile and Place", Edited by Barbara Bender and Margot Winer, page 23)
    53. "In 1851, at the time of her enfranchisement, Greece possessed about one million inhabitants, of whom a quarter were Albanians or Walachians. The population was a residue of invaders of all peoples, and notable of Slavs. For centuries the Greeks properly so called had disappeared from Greece. From the time of the Roman conquest, Greece was regarded by every adventurer as a nursery of slaves, which everyone might have recourse to with impunity."
    ("The Psychology of Socialism", by Gustav Lo Bon, page 206)
    54. "The Greek influence which has partially Hellenized the Vlachs of Macedonia to-day can hardly date from before the Turkish conquest. It is the work not of the Byzantine Empire but of the modern Church, and seems to have reached its height during the eighteenth century."
    ("Macedonia its races and the future", by H. N. Brailsford , page 181)
    55. "Greek statesman said Albanian was not a language – it had no literature, not even an alphabet - it is a mere patois, and would die out in a generation, and the children of the Albanian soldiers and sailors would all be good Greeks."
    ("The Catholic Presbyterian an International Journal Ecclesiastical and Religious", vol. II, July – December 1879, edited by Professor W. G. Blaikie D.D., L.L.D., F.R.S.E., page 319).
    56. " We have many instances of the daring of these Greek robbers, one of which I shall here relate, as received from their chief, no less a personage than Colocotroni, who was in our service, and has since, as may be remembered, made himself conspicuous in Greece. He is an Albanian, and, as he acknowledges, a kleftis (robber)."
    ("Selections from my Journal during a residence in the Mediterranean", pages 110 and 111)
    57. "…the historical absurdity of declaring Hellenic civilization the expression of a culture uncontaminated by foreign elements can be explained by a simple fact that tends to be disregarded – namely, that Hellenic civilization that we know it was in effect the invention of the ´Science of Antiquity´, of Classics. As such, it could have been (and was) endowed with whatever signification the discipline found useful."
    ("Dream Nation Enlightenment, Colonization and the Institution of Modern Greece", by Stathis Gourgouris, page 134)
    58. "After successive treaties, (London 1913, Bucharest 1913), Greece acquired much of Macedonia, Epirus, Crete and the north-eastern islands of the Aegean. Greek land increased by 70 percent and the population almost doubled from 2,800,000 to 4,800,000 some of whom were Slavs and Turks."
    ("Entangled Identities Nations and Europe", Edited by Atsuko Ichijo and Willfried Sohn, page 112)
    59. "Yet so much of the Sclavonian element had been infused into the latter that the modern Greeks are found to differ widely from their remote ancestors."
    ("Foreign Quarterly Review", Vol. XXVI, 1841, page 73)
    60. "…the question of Greece´s political and ethnic status generated a considerable amount of debate in western Europe. As Michael Herzfeld argues in ´Ours once more: Folklore, Ideology and the Making of Modern Greece´: ´to be a European, was in ideological terms, to be a Hellene´ (1982: 15). Many Europeans of the time, however, believed the contemporary Greeks to be an adulterated version of the Classical Greeks – ´Byzantine Slavs…"
    ("Grafting Helen The Abduction of the Classical Past", Matthew Gumpert, pages 239 and 240)
    61. "…since the Greeks are a composite people among whom the descendents of the veritable Greek of old are in a great minority. The majority are of Albanian and Solute blood, races which even the Romans found untamable."
    ("In Greek Waters: a Story of the Grecian War of Independence (1821-1827)", By G.A. Henty, 1893, page 40)
    62. "General interest was first aroused by a controversy as to the racial derivation of modern Greeks. The War of Independence had won the sympathy of Europe; and it was a rude shock both to Greece and her champions when Fallmerayer announced that her inhabitants were virtually Slavs. The race of the Hellenes, he declared in his ´History of Morea´, was routed out and Athens was unoccupied from the sixth to the tenth century. Only its literature and a few ruins survived to tell that the Greek people ever existed. What the Slavs had begun the Albanians had completed."
    ("History and Historians in the Nineteenth Century", by G.P. Gooch, pages 490 and 491)
    63. "Old Corinth passed through its various stages, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Turkish. After the War of Independence it was again Greek, and, being a considerable town, was suggested as the capital of the new Kingdom of Greece. The earthquake of 1858 leveled it to the ground with the exception of about a dozen houses. A mere handful of the old inhabitants remained on the site. But fertile fields and running water made it attractive; and outsiders gradually came in. At present, it is an untidy poverty-stricken village of about 1,000 inhabitants, mostly of Albanian Blood."
    ("The Encyclopedia Britannica" Eleventh edition, Vol. VII, 1910, page 148)
    64. "The modern Greeks possess none of the qualities which make nations great. Their existence is due to the battle of Navarino, for in the autumn of 1827 Greece was unquestionably conquered by the arms of the Grand Vizier Reshid Mehmed and by Ibrahim Pasha of Egypt, and again the ´untoward event´ of Navarino could only occur at a time when Phil-Hellenism was a sort of social disease, caused by hallucinations and by the illusion of finding in the present a mongrel inhabitants of the Morea and Attica the descendents of the ancient Hellenes."
    ("The Syrian War and the decline of the Ottoman Empire (1840-1848)", by Byron Augustus Jochmus, page 100)
    65. "The notion of a ´Greek´ identity in the modern sense is itself in large part the creation of the movement towards statehood. It was not until the nineteenth century that the term came to describe a homogenous ethnic group in the modern sense. Instead, the people of the Peloponnesos, including Argolida, made up an intricate mosaic of ethnicities and languages. In Argolida dialects of Albanian, Greek, Turkish and other local languages were spoken (Andromedas 1976)."
    ("Blood and Oranges Immigrant Labour and European Markets in Rural Greece", by Christopher M. Lawrence, page 12)
    66. "…Greek national feeling was already quite strong at the beginning of the nineteenth century. Even the Albanian-speaking Orthodox did not regard themselves only as Rum (members of the religious community or Orthodox Christian millet) but also as real Greeks."
    ("From Geopolitics to Global Politics", editor Jacques Levy, page 174)
    67. "…he devoted his personal attention exclusively to the latter, assigning Joannina to his son-in-law, Thomas Preliubovich, in 1367, and Aetolia and Akarnania to two Albanian chiefs, belonging to the clan Boua and Liosa – a name still to be found in the plans of Attica. Thus, about 1362, all north-west Greece was Albanian…"
    ("The Latins in the Lavant a History of Frankish Greece (1204-1566), by William Miller M.A., 1908, page 294)
    68. "Overrun by the Goths and Vandals, it became a pay, by the second half of the 8th c., to bands of Slavic invaders, who found it wasted by war and pestilence. Gradually however, these barbarians were subdued and Grecianized by the Byzantine Emperors. Nevertheless the numerous names of places, Rivers, etc., in the Morea of Slavic origin, prove how firmly they had routed themselves, and that the Moreotes are anything but pure Greeks."
    ("The International Encyclopedia a Compendium of Human Knowledge", edited by Richard Gleeson Green, 1890, page 204)
    69. "…between a cheer and a whine, and presently their Imperial Majesties of Greece, cantered up the hill attended by four dignitaries, and as many equerries. The queen was dressed in a dark green riding-habit, black beaver with drooping feather, and veil. King Otho wore the Albanian costume of crimson, gold embroidered jacket and legs, white fustanela, with a richly chased saber belted over his shoulder."
    ("Scampavians from Gibil Tarek to Stamboul", by Harry Gringo, 1857)
    70. "There was little interest as to the nationality of the Rayahs while Turkish rule was strong. They were nearly all Christians of the Byzantine type, those in Europe at least, and were hence regarded as one people, for oriental theocracy cannot conceive nationality apart from religion. They themselves know the difference in their origins and in such traditions as they had: some were Slavs, some Vlachs and some Albanians…; they were all non-Muslims, all Rayahs, and in a sense all Greeks."
    ("Political Science Quarterly", Columbia University, 1908, page 307)
    71. "The revolution of 1821 has restored the ancient appellation ´Elines´, but as it is used chiefly by the inhabitants of Bavarian Greece, who perhaps don´t constitute more than one fourth of the Greek nation, it may safely be said that the mass of the people still call themselves ´Romaii´ and their language ´Romaiki´."
    ("A Romaik Grammar", by E.A. Sophocles, 1842, page iv)
    72. "From their manners, their features and their names of many of their neighbouring places, I should be tempted to regard them [Mainiotes] proceeding of Sclavonian blood: many travelers pretend, however, to have discovered in these barbarous hordes traces of a Spartan origin."
    ("Recollections of a Classical Tour through various parts of Greece, Turkey and Italy made in the years 1818 and 1819", by Peter Edmund Laurent, 1821, page 182)
    73. "The Greeks have not taken much interest in their past until Europeans became enthusiastic discoverers and diggers of their ruins. And why should they have cared? The Greeks were not Greek but rather the illiterate descendents of Slavs and Albanian fishermen who spoke a debased Greek dialect and had little interest in the broken columns and temples except as places to graze their sheep. The true philhellenists were the English – of whom Byron was the epitome – and the French, who were passionate to link themselves to the Greek ideal."
    ("The Pillars of Hercules" by Paul Thereoux, page 316)
    74. "…Neohellenic Enlightenment sanctioned a selective tradition, with particular emphasis upon an imaginary classical antiquity, and sought to suppress what was deemed to be a ´non-significant tradition´, mainly the Byzantine and Ottoman legacy. Through this ideological management of the past, it achieved the displacement of a substance part of the history, memory and experience of those it sought to shape into modern Greeks."
    ("Tormented by History Nationalism in Greece and Turkey", by Umut Oskirimu and Spiros A. Sofos, page 24)
    75. "There are two other difficulties involved in the history of the Turkish period. In tracing the movements of merchandise and men in the Balkan peninsula it is extremely difficult to differentiate the various races involved. Western travelers knew little, Turkish authorities cared less. Even the polyglot Vlachs themselves knew nor cared a great deal and until the rise of national conciousness at the end of the eighteenth century were probably quite happy with the label of Greek, which was good enough for outside observers."
    ("The Vlachs the History of a Balkan People", by T.J. Winnifrith, pages 124 and 125)

    http://www.arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=3991

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    that's interesting, i think southern albanians should admit that they descend from ancient preistoric greek population (look at albania tribes map).
    Before drawing hasty conclusions, and I'm doing a simple question. Why the area where live the Arberesh in Sicily, before was called "Piana dei Greci", and now is called "Piana degli Albanesi"?

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    Dian I know alot of greek decend from albanians, but that doesn't mean greeks arn't still in southern albania. Maybe albania should recognise the Protocol of Corfu and the autonomy of Northern epuris state, that would be nice!

    "In accordance with the wishes of the local Greek population, the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus, centered in Gjirokastër on account of the latter's large Greek population,[27] was declared in March 1914 by the pro-Greek party, which was in power in southern Albania at that time.[28] Georgios Christakis-Zografos, a distinguished Greek politician from Lunxhëri, took the initiative and became the head of the Republic. In May, autonomy was confirmed with the Protocol of Corfu, signed by Albanian and Northern Epiroterepresentatives and approved by the Great Powers. The signing of the Protocol ensured that the region would have its own administration, recognized the rights of the local Greeks and provided self government under nominal Albanian sovereignty.[28]
    However, the agreement was never fully implemented, because when World War I broke out in July, Albania collapsed. Although short-lived,[28][29] the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus left behind a substantial historical record, such as its own postage stamps."

    Greece has a problem with neighbours not honouring treaties! ;) I know albanias think they can achieve a greater albania because of what happened in kosovo, but that's not even a real country! It's a tiny 1.5 million person breakaway province that has no real future! If albanians start problems with the other two neighbours (FYROM, Greece) they will regret it! ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) their historical obscurity until the last millennium, and (ii) the paucity of native sea terms and Greek loanwords in Albanian, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.
    [/B]
    >Ok, we all know that the sea is a large area of water. but which word use the Albanians for water?

    >and the "ancient greek"?


    >and ask to some well-trained military, how did they find the way when they are lost.

    >and the chinese?

    >and the ancient egyptians?


    >but it's interesting this one:



    >and according to Stephen of Bizantium 6th century AD)


    >and the Albanians for "our" say........

    >I hope you understand what I'm talking!

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    Well some people did accept Truth


    except gennetic who prove that the majority of modern Albania
    Also Linguist prove that

    Albanians like the late Aristidh Kola claim that the Albanian language is Pelasgian. Let's see what linguists say:

    'Historical linguists point out that these borrowings from Ancient Greek were in the Doric dialect and penetrated into Illyrian through Corinthian commercial colonies in Corfu, along the Adriatic coast, and through border towns.'

    (Edwin E. Jacques, the Albanians: an ethnic history from pre-historic times to the present, p 37)

    ``The Albanian language has borrowed many words from Latin, Greek and Turkish.
    (Andrew Dalby, Dictionary of Languages: The Definitive Reference to More than 400 languages, p 13)

    Our knowledge of Albanian, except for a few words, extends back only as far as the fifteenth century of our era, and when we first meet with it, the vocabulary is so mixed with Latin, Greek, Turkish, and Slavonic elements owing to conquests and other causes that it is somewhat difficult to isolate the original Albanian.
    (Albert C. Baugh, Thomas Cable, A History of the English Language, p 25)

    ``Proto-Albanian is viewed as a language already possessing several features typical of the Albanian linguistic type. We reconstruct it in two forms: Early Proto-Albanian immediately before the beginning of linguistic contacts with speakers of Latin/Romance (1st century CE), and Late Proto-Albanian following contacts with Proto-Romance and ancient Slavic dialects still close to Proto-Slavic (6th-7th centuries CE). Major changes shattered the structure of Proto-Albanian during this short but eventful period.
    (Vladimir E. Orel, A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language, preface xii)

    ``The majority of Albanian speakers are Muslims: numerous words and names are borrowed from Arabic, language of the Quran.
    (Andrew Dalby, Dictionary of Languages: The Definitive Reference to More than 400 languages, p 13)

    ``of the Greek words which appear in Albanian, a few have internal marks, as having been adopted before the corruption of the language; a larger proportion afford the same evidence of having been taken from the Romaic Greek, and there are many also whose forms, being the same both in ancient and modern Greek dialect, are of uncertain date.
    (Charles Loring Brace , The Races of the Old world: A Manual of Ethnology p 268)

    ``As to the character of the Albanian, it may be affirmed that more than a third of its primitives are Greek roots reduced to their primitive, barbarous and monosyllabic form; it is equally true that the Greek words in Albanian are more closely allied to those in the Aeolic dialect
    (Conrad Malte-Brun, Universal Geography, p 109 )


    'Historical linguists point out that these borrowings from Ancient Greek were in the Doric dialect and penetrated into Illyrian through Corinthian commercial colonies in Corfu, along the Adriatic coast, and through border towns.' (Edwin E. Jacques, the Albanians: an ethnic history from pre-historic times to the present, p 37, section 8)

    ``That Albanian was an Indo-European language was first recognized in 1854 by Franz bopp. Its Indo-European nature has been obscured to early investigators by the heavy lexical borrowing that had taken place in Albanian from Greek, Latin, Slavic and Turkish.
    (J.P Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams, Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, p 9)

    ``It was in these ages of Bulgarian prowess, that the remains of the Illyrian and Epirotic nations became finally included with the boundaries which they have ever since held. Many Sclavonian words then found their way into the Albanian language.
    (Charles Loring Brace , The Races of the Old world: A Manual of Ethnology p 268)

    ``The Byzantine world, mainly through the Orthodox Church, helped spread Greek culture in Albania, as in other Balkan countries.
    (Albert C. Baugh, Thomas Cable, A History of the English Language, p 6)

    ``Latin loanwords are of extreme importance for the history of Albanian phonology, especially its vocalism.
    (Vladimir E. Orel, A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language, p 23)

    ``Both Gheg and Tosk dialects are loaded with loan-words.
    (The Journal of International Relations, p 56)

    ``On account of the large number of Greek loan-words in its vocabulary, the Albanian
    was formerly thought to belong to the Hellenic branch of dialects. (New International Encyclopedia, p324)

    ``Albanian would derive from an ancient admixture of Balkan tongues.
    (Albert C. Baugh, Thomas Cable, A History of the English Language, p 4)
    ``Until the 20thcentury, Albanian was always subordinate to some other language. In particular, since the territory was ruled by Rome for some five centuries, lexis and word-formation were deeply marked by Latin.
    (Albert C. Baugh, Thomas Cable, A History of the English Language, p 4)


    READ GUSTAV MAYER

    modern Albanian language in a total of 5140 word roots has
    1420 Romanic (Wallachian Romanian Latin)
    540 Slavic (Bulgarian Serbian)
    1180 Turkish (due to islam)
    840 Greek
    400 Aryan
    730 Unknown


    the last 2 are linguistic treasure
    400 Aryan, J mainly and I Y-Dna are consider Aryan
    so most of them could be Pelasgic or Thracian origin

    730 Unknown altough Mayer say unknown probably he could not find any root
    As Dian said in another post that could be Kush Egyptian, which also Exist in Greek Language due to E-V13 migration from Cyprus to Greece to Dardania
    Also they could be Transylvanian Carpathean or Cuman-hungarian due to Anju and the devastasion from Alba Lullia
    Anju as Hunjadi were Cumans

    the change From Centum to satem proves that modern Albanian is not the origin of Ancient Illirian or Pelasgic, But the Elements of Pelasgic and thracian proves that a % of people is ancient and put-kept these elements in modern Albanian language.


    Only an Army of merceneries could have such a linguistic mix,
    cause they must FAST assimilate words of many languages in order to prevail and survive,

    That can prove that Maniakes Army first mentioned word Arverites (from Arvero)
    is the root of modern Albanian language,
    Remember Arvarut -Arbarut Army name in cappadokia


    Now about Terror,

    Greeks did not Burn Moschopolis
    Greeks did not slain-slain Arberian suliotet
    Greeks did slian Arbanites,

    In opposite
    Albanians Burn and genocide
    Moschopolis area and town
    Melea (Μηλια) villages in Epirus
    Suliotet (arberians- Albanized Greeks)

    Even in 2010 Albanian Nazi murdered Guma,, cause he spoke Greek in Albania.
    Now who is using Fear is well knownwho is in hunt of every minority it is well knowneven at 2010

    Gennetic Marks proves that Albanians came from North-East Transylvania,
    And occupy areas of Arberians and Arbanites,
    Gennetic marks are stronger than lInguistic,

    what ever you say,
    Gustav Mayer and Gennetic Ydna
    Proves That a % of Albanians came from Transylavania,
    and accept part of language of local Illyrian remnants, the Arbanites and Arberians

    find who ally and enemy of Kastrioti comes from transylvania


    when you serve an army you must learn army language and forget your own
    Arberian language is the language that Maniakes army used, plus Illyrian elements from today Albania were Army return after MAniakes death,



    Quote Originally Posted by Dian View Post
    According to the official propaganda:

    But,according Stephen of Byzantium, also known as Stephanus Byzantinus(Greek: Στέφανος Βυζάντιος;
    Quote Originally Posted by Dian View Post
    fl. 6th century AD) in its geographical dictionary entitled Ethnica (Εθνικά), we have:


    Well ARPNIA !!!

    And so on....



    it says Illyria not Albania

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