Illyria

[Elias2]

Zajaz the stage is yours.

[Zajaz]

Thanks Elias for creating this topic, which I guess has many things to be exposed.

To start off, the maps you brought up have a primary flaw. The southern boundary does not fit at all with the ancient descriptions. Surprisingly it ignore that Epirus had a considerable Illyrian element which is emphasized by every serious historian. The boundaries drew by the designer of map are pretty erroneous since it gives to Hellas a wide territory in the contrary with the historical evidences.

Upper Macedonia (Greek: Ἄνω Μακεδονία, Ánō Makedonía) is a geographical and tribal term to describe the regions that became part of the kingdom of Macedon in the early 4th century BC. From that date, its inhabitants were politically equal to Lower Macedonians. Upper Macedonia was divided in the regions of Elimeia, Eordea, Orestis, Lynkestis, Pelagonia and Deuriopus.
Hecataeus and Strabo identified these mountain Macedonia kingdoms as of Epirote stock. Two of the most important Hellenistic dynasties originated from Upper Macedonia: Lagids from Eordea and Seleucids from Orestis.
Some names of Upper Macedonians look not apparently Greek (Arrhabaios, Arrhidaios, Derdas, Sabattaras), and some scholars such as Eugene N. Borza argue that the inhabitants of Upper Macedonia retained many of the supposedly non-Hellenic original Macedonian names later lost among Lower Macedonians. Others argue these names may be Hellenic although many do not yet have clear Hellenic etymologies, while others argue that the names were borrowed from Thracians and/or Illyrians..

Many tumuli (burial mounds) containing Illyrian objects made of bronze and iron were discovered at Glasinac (Bosnia), Koman (Albania), and other parts of southeastern Europe. At the height of their expansion the Illyrians extended their frontiers from the Danube River to the Gulf of Ambracia and from the Adriatic Sea to the Shar Mountains.

The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 1, 1987, pg. 212

In addition with these evidences the following maps seems to be more plausible:





Now I shall confirm the Illyricity of some 'contested' tribes which does not exist any firm consensus between scholars. Who were the Peaonians?

Peonians

Another illyrian community that in its political development reached a higher degree of political organization, were the Peonians. They inhabited the region of today's southern (In addition: Rep.)Macedonia (upper 'Vardar', Stobi and 'Crna Rijeka'), but its borders were changing through a longer period of time. On the east towards the Thracians the border went with the river 'Mesta' from its mouth to its source 'Arda', and from there towards 'Krdjolsko' lake and further towards north. Accoring to sources from some writers (Strabon, VI, 331, 11; 'Plinije'(=Plinius?), IV, 35; 'Livije'(=Livius?), XL, 33, 14), it can be concluded that in its earlier era that their area covered much wider area, including here the parts of northern Greece, on the expense of some of the local communities there. They resided in also Halkidiki.

That the Peonians were belonging to a community of older and more important Balkan peoples that were politically and culturally were much more advanced from other Balkan communities , it can be witnessed by the fact that they are mentioned by Homer as participants of the Trojan war, were they were fighting on the side of Trojans ( ILL. XVII , 350). During Philip II , Peonians recognized Macedonian rule ('Diod.' XVI , 4). After his death they incited rebellion and Alexander had to stop it.

Peonians being direct neighbour of the Greeks maintained close trade religions and as a result fell early under their cultural influence. Thanks to that they were among the first Illyrian communities to have stepped towards civilisational events. Close relations with Greece is confirmed by data that states that certain Peonian rulers were granted honored citizenship rights ('proksenija'='proxenia'?) by some Greek states. That was given in order to thank them for certain services (assistance in wheat, monetarily, military aid and similar). Such relations were especially strong with Athens, which in its own foreign politics and relations with Macedonia was frequently relying on connections with Illyrian and Thracian kings.

Original sources tell us of names of three peonian kings. At the year of 357. B.C. the throne was occupied by 'Agis'. His heir was 'Likpej' (='Likipeas'?) , and at the year of 306. B.C. on the throne was king 'Audoleont' (='Autoleantos'). His son was 'Ariston' , while 'Dropion' was contemporary of Macedonian king 'Demetrije'(='Demetrius'?) II. 4

High economical and cultural development of Peonia is showed through minting of monetary coins. It is known that the Peonian rulers were minting coins as far back as during the era of Greek - Persian wars. This is a witness that the economy of Peonia was based on trade-monetary relations, with all the accompanying institutions. Minting of monetary coins occurred in continuity across long period of time. At the year of 306. B.C. king ' Audoleont' (= 'Autoleontos' ?) minted coins that stated the title 'basileus' (='vasileus'?) , in a likewise manner that Hellenistic monarchs did. The title of 'Basileus' points that the Peonia represented state organization, for if we were talking about tribal organization with tribal leader as a ruler such title ('Basileus') would not be present.

That there was a high level of political organization in Peonia also points advanced urbanisation of the country. Peonian towns were mentioned also by Herodotus ('Doberos' and 'Bymazos' ), and from younger era there were 'Stuberra', 'Astraion', 'Argos', 'Bryanion', 'Bylazora', 'Stobi', 'Idomene' and others. Since for the development of urbanisation precondition is to have strong economic base, in this case there were all the required conjectures. The country had at its disposal large surplus of products, primarily in wheat and metals, which in the trade with Greeks represented strategic goods. Bringing (or coming) of means had increased the wealth of the country, which, and had conditioned peonian society into early class differentiation. This during the course of development has resulted in establishing strong political organization, that in the finishing stage has growned to state organization. 5

Heirs of king 'Audoleont' ruled over Peonia up until middle of II century B.C. From the political standpoint, from those heirs important one was 'Dropion' , contemporary of Macedonian king 'Demetrije' II and 'Dozon' (='Doson'?). During his rule Peonia in the sources is called 'koinon ton Paionon' (state-political community of Peonians). 6 Greeks with the legal expression 'koinon' had marked statehood , characteristic for their own (Greek) communities. Peonian 'koinon' varied from Greek one to a degree that it included villagers, while with Greeks it was based on 'simpoliteja' (='simpoliteria'?) , among whom societal base was a polis, and among Poenians it was a village.

Enver Imamovic
On elements of political organization of illyrian communities
Prilozi', 30, Sarajevo, 2001., pages. 25-41

[Zajaz]

The Illyrian vestiges have also been detected in the north of Greece i.e Acarnania and Aetolia. This is somehow implied by Thucydides. He wrote as well:

«τὸ γὰρ ἔθνος μέγα μὲν εἶναι τὸ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν καὶ μάχιμον, οἰκοῦν δὲ κατὰ κώμας ἀτειχίστους, καὶ ταύτας διὰ πολλοῦ, καὶ σκευῇ ψιλῇ χρώμενον οὐ χαλεπὸν ἀπέφαινον, πρὶν ξυμβοηθῆσαι, καταστραφῆναι. ἐπιχειρεῖν δ᾿ ἐκέλευον πρῶτον μὲν Ἀποδωτοῖς, ἔπειτα δὲ Ὀφιονεῦσι καὶ μετὰ τούτους Εὐρυτᾶσιν, ὅπερ μέγιστον μέρος ἐστὶ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν, ἀγνωστότατοι δὲ γλῶσσαν καὶ ὠμοφάγοι εἰσίν, ὡς λέγονται» (ΘΟΥΚΥΔΙΔΗΣ III.94)

III,94: The Aetolian nation, although numerous and warlike, yet dwelt in un-walled villages scattered far apart, and had nothing but light armor, and might, according to the Messenians, be subdued without much difficulty before succors could arrive. The plan which they recommended was to attack first the Apodotians, next the Ophionians, and after these the Eurytanians, who are the largest tribe in Aetolia, and speak, as is said, a language exceedingly difficult to understand, and eat their flesh raw.

The 'Barbarians' to which Thucydides is referring are beyond any doubt, Illyrians.

Aetolia (in the Roman sense of the name) had not been greatly affected by Hellenic civilization when the Romans conquered it. Five Aetolian cities, evidently Hellenic and distinguished, figure in Homer. But Thucydides and the Greeks of the classical age regarded the Aetolians as barbaric. […] They extended their rule over tribes to the north whom the Greeks of the great age looked upon as savages. In the pages of Livy, Philip V of Macedon is made to admit the Hellenic character of some Aetolians, but to deny that the greater part of those who bore the name were Greeks. The Aetolians were natural enemies of the more civilized Greek peoples…

The Municipalities of the Roman Empire, p. 412

Even the renowned Roman historian, Livy asserts that Aetolians aren't genuine Greeks:

This pretentious harangue called up Aristaenus, the captain-general of the Achaean League. "I pray," he began, "that Jupiter Optimus Maximus and Queen Juno, the tutelary deities of Argos, may never allow that city to be a bone of contention between the tyrant of Lacedaemon and the robbers of Aetolia, or suffer more after you have recovered it than it did when he captured it. No intervening sea protects us from these brigands. What, then, will be our fate, T. Quinctius, if they make a stronghold for themselves in the very heart of Greece? They have nothing Greek about them but the language, any more than they have anything human about them but the form and appearance of men; their customs and rites are more horrid than those of any barbarians, nay, even than those of savage beasts. We ask you therefore, Romans, to rescue Argos from Nabis and settle the affairs of Greece in such a way that you may leave this country at peace and security even against the robber practices of the Aetolians." (44, 24)

The Illyrian vestiges have also been detected in the north of Greece i.e Acarnania and Aetolia. This is somehow implied by Thucydides. He wrote as well:

«τὸ γὰρ ἔθνος μέγα μὲν εἶναι τὸ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν καὶ μάχιμον, οἰκοῦν δὲ κατὰ κώμας ἀτειχίστους, καὶ ταύτας διὰ πολλοῦ, καὶ σκευῇ ψιλῇ χρώμενον οὐ χαλεπὸν ἀπέφαινον, πρὶν ξυμβοηθῆσαι, καταστραφῆναι. ἐπιχειρεῖν δ᾿ ἐκέλευον πρῶτον μὲν Ἀποδωτοῖς, ἔπειτα δὲ Ὀφιονεῦσι καὶ μετὰ τούτους Εὐρυτᾶσιν, ὅπερ μέγιστον μέρος ἐστὶ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν, ἀγνωστότατοι δὲ γλῶσσαν καὶ ὠμοφάγοι εἰσίν, ὡς λέγονται» (ΘΟΥΚΥΔΙΔΗΣ III.94)

III,94: The Aetolian nation, although numerous and warlike, yet dwelt in un-walled villages scattered far apart, and had nothing but light armor, and might, according to the Messenians, be subdued without much difficulty before succors could arrive. The plan which they recommended was to attack first the Apodotians, next the Ophionians, and after these the Eurytanians, who are the largest tribe in Aetolia, and speak, as is said, a language exceedingly difficult to understand, and eat their flesh raw.

The 'Barbarians' to which Thucydides is referring are beyond any doubt, Illyrians.

Aetolia (in the Roman sense of the name) had not been greatly affected by Hellenic civilization when the Romans conquered it. Five Aetolian cities, evidently Hellenic and distinguished, figure in Homer. But Thucydides and the Greeks of the classical age regarded the Aetolians as barbaric. […] They extended their rule over tribes to the north whom the Greeks of the great age looked upon as savages. In the pages of Livy, Philip V of Macedon is made to admit the Hellenic character of some Aetolians, but to deny that the greater part of those who bore the name were Greeks. The Aetolians were natural enemies of the more civilized Greek peoples…

The Municipalities of the Roman Empire, p. 412

Even the renowned Roman historian, Livy asserts that Aetolians aren't genuine Greeks:

This pretentious harangue called up Aristaenus, the captain-general of the Achaean League. "I pray," he began, "that Jupiter Optimus Maximus and Queen Juno, the tutelary deities of Argos, may never allow that city to be a bone of contention between the tyrant of Lacedaemon and the robbers of Aetolia, or suffer more after you have recovered it than it did when he captured it. No intervening sea protects us from these brigands. What, then, will be our fate, T. Quinctius, if they make a stronghold for themselves in the very heart of Greece? They have nothing Greek about them but the language, any more than they have anything human about them but the form and appearance of men; their customs and rites are more horrid than those of any barbarians, nay, even than those of savage beasts. We ask you therefore, Romans, to rescue Argos from Nabis and settle the affairs of Greece in such a way that you may leave this country at peace and security even against the robber practices of the Aetolians." (44, 24)

I'm pretty sure that the above maps I've brought up are very realistic. I shall put forward an another proof in favor of my thesis (Illyrian being of Epirotes)

Suliones were another Chaonian tribe, named by the poet Rhyanus who is quoted by Steph. Byzantinus (v. Συλίονες). Their name recall to mind the famous Suliotes during the wars for Greek independence.

I think that Suliones are the same with the Selloi, who dwell around Dodona and were ranked as barbarians by Strabo.

Selloi were inhabitants of Epirus of ancient Greece,in a region between Dodona - where existed the oldest reported oracle - and Achelous river.

My point is that Albanian tribe of Suliotes (who use to live in southeast of Jannina) are nothing else but descendants of Συλίονες or Selloi. At least this is suggested by their tribal name: SUL = Συλί -->Σελλοί (who served as well as priests in Dodona sanctuary). To back up my theory I'll present to you John Lee Comstock's opinion regarding this:

[how yes no 2]

Zajaz the stage is yours.

How likely is it that area of influence of Illyrians from map above is not related to spread of I2a2 on map bellow?

[Zajaz]

Here I've got an another anthropological map regarding southern areas of Illyria i.e Epirus. According to this map it is said that Albanians are one the oldest inhabitants in Europe:

[Neander]

How likely is it that area of influence of Illyrians from map above is not related to spread of I2a2 on map bellow?

It is simple; Slavs came in the lands of Illyrians in the 7 century, therefore their haplogoup is !2a2.

Illyrian distribution in Italy was so strong that they were more then itself italics, but the percentage of I2a2 there is desperate.

[how yes no 2]

Here I've got an another anthropological map regarding southern areas of Illyria i.e Epirus. According to this map it is said that Albanians are one the oldest inhabitants in Europe:

maybe you do not know where Albania and Kosovo are, but black spots are matching Montenegro and Epirus...

this map suggest that there was continuity of old inhabitants from Montenegro to Epirus but than it was interrupted in middle by arrival of some not so old people, which would be ancestors of Albanians, as Albania is between Epirus and Montenegro....

btw. I am not convinced this map is correct...
what is the source?

It is simple; Slavs came in the lands of Illyrians in the 7 century, therefore their haplogoup is !2a2.

Illyrian distribution in Italy was so strong that they were more then itself italics, but the percentage of I2a2 there is desperate.

yes, I believe as well that early Slavs (who are of race of Veneti) were dominantly I2a2, but that is not a prove that earlier wave of I2a2 was not already there...

as for Italy, spread of I2a along Adriatic coast on map above matches very nice colonies of Illyrians from map above it, while is mismatch for south Slavs that never settled there... isn't that indication of I2a2 component in Illyrians?

in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35)

Jordanes - the origin and deeds of Goths
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html

Many tribes originally thought to have been Illyrians, such as Carni, Histri and Liburni, were actually related to Veneti.[3]
...
3. ^ Wilkes, J. J. The Illyrians, 1992,ISBN 0-631-19807-5. Page 183: "... We may begin with the Venetic peoples, Veneti, Carni, Histri and Liburni, whose language set them apart from the rest of the Illyrians. ..." Page 81: "... " In Roman Pannonia the Latobici and Varciani who dwelt east of the Venetic Catari in the upper Sava valley were Celtic but the Colapiani of the Colapis (Kulpa) valley were Illyrians ( ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti

[Neander]

as for Italy, spread of I2a along Adriatic coast on map above matches very nice colonies of Illyrians from map above it, while is mismatch for south Slavs that never settled there... isn't that indication of I2a2 component in Illyrians?

In Italy is antoher hot spot of Ev 13, but only in Croatia, it is very low, which is proof that Slavs drove out Ev13 carriers.

In Italy, the low percentage of I2a2, is because of interchange population beween croatia and Italy during medieval.

In the times of Illyrians I2a2 was not there.

The strong presence of Illyrians in Italy, is not acfording to low and wek presence of I2a2.

Sorry but your theory is no-where.

[Zajaz]

maybe you do not know where Albania and Kosovo are, but black spots are matching Montenegro and Epirus...

It doesn't seem to be interrupted at all. Anyway you can see a narrow strip (across todays Myzeqe coastal) plain matching Northern Albania and Montenegro with Epirus.

this map suggest that there was continuity of old inhabitants from Montenegro to Epirus

...as well as a strong continuity between historical inhabitants of Illyria with Epirus ones.

but than it was interrupted in middle by arrival of some not so old people, which would be ancestors of Albanians, as Albania is between Epirus and Montenegro....

The bold underlined sentence is just a vague assumption of yours because there is no historical evidence suggesting any arrival of Albanians in their lands. The "interruption" as far as I see is caused mostly by the spreading of "Dinaric", "Nordics" and "dark Mediterraneans" as it is written in the legend of map. This is perhaps not very elaborative!? If the author of map was suggesting that the central Albania was peopled from the same race as Slaves, then he is totally wrong. The presence of Slavs isn't well attested in central Albania which is mainly a mountainous region without any fertile plain.

In order to understand properly the above map we have to corroborate it with other available anthropological studies done by American researchers who asserted that Albanians have the highest brachycephalic index in the whole Europe. This bracycephalic zone starts variously from Switzerland (and by some evidences from Southern Bosnia) and stretches up to the Corinthian bay.

btw. I am not convinced this map is correct...
what is the source?

A mate of mine emailed to me a days ago. I have to ask him for the source he brought from!

[how yes no 2]

In Italy is antoher hot spot of Ev 13, but only in Croatia, it is very low, which is proof that Slavs drove out Ev13 carriers.
In Italy, the low percentage of I2a2, is because of interchange population beween croatia and Italy during medieval.
In the times of Illyrians I2a2 was not there.
The strong presence of Illyrians in Italy, is not acfording to low and wek presence of I2a2.
Sorry but your theory is no-where.

you got the good case for E-V13 as Illyrian also for Croatia as E-V13 has high variance in Croatia which indicates that once upon a time it was in high frequency there as well..

but, that still doesnot exclude I2a2 as present in area...

I am thinking of Veneti and Pannoni as source of I2a2 in Illyria and Pannonia and of Scordisci as source of it in Serbia and Pannonia...

Pannoni settled Illyria after it was emptied by Dacians (during their wars with Celtic tribes)

I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...r=5&highlight=

Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica

this historical record clearly shows that Illyria was depopulated but not by Slavs (as erroneously claimed by politically motivated ideologists of Albanian nationalism), but by Dacians much much before arrival of Slavs (if such arrival was ever massive)

Pannoni and Scordisci I think were I2a2 and Thracians R1a

Scordisci being mixed with Thracians and Illyrians, might be about I2a2 proto-Serbs mixed with Illyrian E-V13 and with Thracian R1a

Illyria was repopulated by Pannoni....

why I search proto-Slavs in Pannoni, Thracians and Scordisci...
because of this clue...

After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic

http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

(translation of early medieval Russian document from year 1113th that narrates about history of Slavic people...read more on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle)

note that in time it is written Bulgaria and Hungary were neighboring states, which means this is about proto-Slavic people area around Danube from Black sea to Bohemia including parts of Serbia and Romania around Danube... this in antic people matches Thracians, Scordisci (or Serdi), and Pannoni....

note that also I2a2 shows spread along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia, and also spread along Carpathian mountains which is where it was pushed with advance of Roman empire...
now, if Scordisci and Pannoni were I2a2, reason I ask whether I2a2 could have been present already in Illyrians, is that in Greek mythology Scordisci and Pannoni origin from Illyrians...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

so, it could have been that already among Illyrians there were some I2a2 tribes...

and I find link in Venetic tribes (for whom I independently from this am sure are I2a2)...
link is that early Slavs are in historic records recorded as people who origin from populous race of Veneti

the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html

[how yes no 2]

The bold underlined sentence is just a vague assumption of yours because there is no historical evidence suggesting any arrival of Albanians in their lands.

nope that sentence is not vague... Albanians live between Epirus and Montenegro...discontinuity on that (probably fake) map of old people is centered between Epirus and Montengro...thus this discontinuity is due to people who settled area between Epirus and Montenegro... and these people are obviously ancestors of Albanians... what is so difficult to understand there?
once you stop thinking with your wishes and start searching for truth, life will become easier for you...

[Zajaz]

thus this discontinuity is due to people who settled area between Epirus and Montenegro... and these people are obviously ancestors of Albanians... what is so difficult to understand there?

I'm really not in the mood to go in the same circles again and again. The reason why the author erroneously made an interruption may be attributed to the exaggeration of Slavic presence in central Albania. I try to be concise as much as I can: I assure you on behalf of all evidences that central Albania (as well as North Albania) were distant regions which were touched little by Slavic waves. I'm not saying that there were no Slavs in Albania but their slight presence can be attested only in some fertile plains along river valleys in Shkodra for instance or along valleys in nearby of Ohrid. That's the story of Slavs in Albania who unlike their kins in Greece, Macedonia or somewhere else couldn't extent effectively their presence because mountainous nature of Albanian hardly attract them to settled in.

Between 600 and 650 the main body of the immigrants occupied Illyria (see Servia: History; and Slavs). It consisted of Croats and Serbs, two groups of tribes who spoke a single language and were so closely related that the origin of the distinction between them is obscure. The Croats settled in the western half of Illyria, the Serbs in the eastern; thus the former came gradually under the influence of Italy and Roman Catholicism, the latter under the influence of Byzantium and the Greek Church. Hence the distinction between them became a marked difference of civilization and creed, which has always tended to keep the Illyrian Slavs politically disunited.

The Croats and Serbs rapidly absorbed most of the Latinized Illyrians. But the wealthy and powerful city-states on the coast were strong enough to maintain their independence and their distinctively Italian character. Other Roman provincials took refuge in the mountains of the interior; these Mavrovlachi, as they were called (see Dalmatia: Population; and Vlachs), preserved their language and nationality for many centuries. The Illyrian tribes which had withstood the attraction of Roman civilization remained unconquered among the mountains of Albania and were never Slavonized. With these exceptions Illyria became entirely Serbo-Croatian in population, language and culture.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/.../Illyria*.html

I have the honor to present to you the scientific assertions of a renowned expert on that matter:

The Epirotes, like their neighbors the Toscs, have an extremely high cephalic index mean, 88, and there seems to be a strongly brachycephalic zone running down the western slopes of the mountain core from Albania to the Gulf of Corinth, and perhaps beyond.

The races of Europe, Carleton Stevens, CoonGreenwood Press, 1972

once you stop thinking with your wishes and start searching for truth, life will become easier for you...

buddy take aside jokes! I am not wishfully thinking because all of my posts up to now are very well-attached with references, books and sources.

[how yes no 2]

buddy take aside jokes! I am not wishfully thinking because all of my posts up to now are very well-attached with references, books and sources.

nope, that's not really true...
your posts are mainly references to interpretations of historical facts, not to facts themselves...

when I quote Strabo or Jordanes, that is about real person who recorded real events around them...

when you quote story of Serbs and Croats assimilating Illyrians, you are quoting recent interpreter of ancient history who based his interpretation on assumpition that Illyria = place where Illyrian people lived...

but if we go back to historic sources, Strabo who lived in 1st century AD clearly indicates that Illyria was depopulated and Illyrians destroyed before that time..so, clearly Roman province of Illyria has not much to do with original Illyrians as erroneously assumed by much later interpreter of history whom you are quoting...... what he call Illyrians are in fact Veneti and Pannoni tribes...

if both assumption that Illyrians were E-V13 (and thus ancestors of Albanians) and the interpreter of history whom you quote are correct, Croatians would have around 30% of E-V13 as e.g. Montenegro people do... they do not because either
1) E-V13 Illyrians were cleaned up much before their arrival by Dacians as indicated by Strabo
or
2) because E-V13 is maybe pre-Illyrian in Croatia and Illyrians are I2a2

I think option 1) is correct because ancestors of Slavs (according to Russian primary chronicle) lived along Danube and in Noricum (Adriatic Veneti?) and not in Illyria, but I do not exclude completely option 2) as I am pretty sure that ancient Veneti were I2a people, so nearby Illyrians might have been related afterall...

btw. read this opinion of mine about origin of Albanian language and why it doesnot map to few preserved Illyrian words, but instead shares part of vocabulary with Romanian

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...1&postcount=35

[Regulus]

In Italy is antoher hot spot of Ev 13, but only in Croatia, it is very low, which is proof that Slavs drove out Ev13 carriers.

In Italy, the low percentage of I2a2, is because of interchange population beween croatia and Italy during medieval.

In the times of Illyrians I2a2 was not there.

The strong presence of Illyrians in Italy, is not acfording to low and wek presence of I2a2.

Sorry but your theory is no-where.

I am just still a learner, but in looking at DNA questions, perhaps we should consider the quite substantial settlements of Illyrians along almost the entire Adriatic coast of Italy between the 13th and 10th centuries BCE.

They seem to have been in control of the entire heel and in some parts as far inland as the mountains.

[Elias2]

My point is that Albanian tribe of Suliotes

Hmm are you saying albanians are the decendents of Illyrians?
The Illyrian tribes which had withstood the attraction of Roman civilization remained unconquered among the mountains of Albania and were never Slavonized. With these exceptions Illyria became entirely Serbo-Croatian in population, language and culture.

No one escaped romanization during the roman empire. Illyria was one of the first areas to be subjected to Roman rule. Even england, one of the last roman conqured areas was well romanized when the anglo-Jutes-saxans came from denmark. I'm talking about the area of albania was under the control of Roman culture from 220BC to the 15th century when the Ottomans came, thats 1700 years. If you want to know more about the emergence of albanian ethos I think you need to look at the years during Ottoman occupation.

And on your points about the 'barbarian' label. You automatically assum that means Illyrian, why is that?

You also didn't say anything on what it means to be Illyrian, you seem to be obsessed though in trying to make Epirots into this undifined thing, and using a political insult in ancient greece to define what it is to be Illyrian. Maybe the northern Hellenic people didn't live in as sofiticated socieities as the well established southern greeks, which would prompt southern greeks to look at them as more barbaric, but this never occured to you? Do you see what it as fault with your logic? you assume to many variables without proper primary evidence to back it up. its all just speculation based on some, not all, written evidence about epirots and Illyrians.

[Elias2]

It is simple; Slavs came in the lands of Illyrians in the 7 century, therefore their haplogoup is !2a2.

Illyrian distribution in Italy was so strong that they were more then itself italics, but the percentage of I2a2 there is desperate.

Yet it has been discused on these forums that maybe the slavic invasion wasn't so massive as once thought do to genetic findings, so your ethnicity definition of people doesn't hold much wieght, as albanians don't have much genetically in common with the inhabitants of the old areas of Illyria, which would mean Illyrians were probably just a label that encompased peoples who lived in this set geographical area.

[iapetoc]

EPEIRUS IS NOT ILLYRIA

EPEIRUS is Mycenean Culture and proves are the tombs of Mycenean



as also Pseudoskyllax Geography




EPEIROS IS NOT ILLYRIA

ILLYRIA STARTS FROM ΑΥΛΩΝ VLORE AND NORTH
THE ECHELEIANS AND TAULANTI ARE THE MOST SOUTH ILLYRIANS
the tribes of Amantes and Bylliotes are Illyrian Tribes who were Hellenized at 400-200 BC but could be Albanized today

Paionians are not Illyrians but Greco-Thracians and has connection with Greek Area of Agrinion due to Endymion
Paions or SiroPAioKes are considered Thracians different from Odrysse
their tribes like Agrianes Syntikes odomandetikes are Thracians But we find similarity with Greek King Names, that is because Thracians probably have have a link with pelasgic culture
Besides Paiones Paioples Paiakes (remember Phaiakes) in Far ancient Means nation,
Probably Pelasgic-Thracians

but Siropaiakes as Agrianes the Greek name for Sirakes could connect them with proto-Serbians cause we know that Sirakes are considered Proto Serbians

Ancient God Sirris godess of agricultural, Perso-Thracian godess (Greek Dimeter)
Sir = agrianas in Greek

In fact that is still a mystery How Agrinio and Paiones with Greek names are worshippng godes Sirris which is Mesopotamian-Persian Godess,
Probably that connection with Skudra Skodra


As Infact Greeks Name Illyria the area from Αυλον-Vlore to Λαβεατες today Budva
Above Illyria was Επιδαυρος Φαρος and Adra sea.

The roman Named Illyria that Area Illyricum that is show in the map
Dalmatia was not Illyria for Greeks

[Zajaz]

[QUOTE=how yes no;366156]

when I quote Strabo or Jordanes, that is about real person who recorded real events around them...

you are quoting recent interpreter of ancient history who based his interpretation on assumpition that Illyria = place where Illyrian people lived...

The reason why I chose as a reference them is because they're more recent scholars who are more familiar with the new scientific results. I can go further by citing a lot of real persons (as you would say) of Byzantine provenience who firmly asserts that Albanians are an Illyrian race. Whereas many others identified Albanians as Macedonians or Epirotes. The Turks regarded Albanians as ‘Arnauts’, Greeks as ‘Arvanites’. If ancestors of modern Albanians were of Asiatic descent (as many wish to be), the Byzantine, Turkish, Serb and Greek historians would named Albanians under the termination of any Asiatic tribe. On the contrary, the very often names to marks ancestors of us were Illyrians, Arvanites, Arnauts, specifically Epirotes and more rarely Macedonian.

1. Polybius mentions a city on modern central Albania called Arbon (its peoples he called Arbanios and Arbanitai)
2. Pliny mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses (Pannonia)
3. Ptolemy the geographer recorded a city called Albanopolis (according to his coordinates it may be found near Durrës territory). He named its inhabitants as Albanoi in his chapter about Macedonia.
4. Stephanus of Byzantium wrote for a population called abroi from Adria Taulantii and a city in Illyria called Arbon,

I don't want to comment any further on genetics since I'm not very familiar with that field.

[Zajaz]

And on your points about the 'barbarian' label. You automatically assum that means Illyrian, why is that?

Because Greeks applied frequently this term to denote both Illyrians, Macedonians, Epirotes, Thracians, etc. So if you maintain the view that 'barbarian' term had the connotation of 'backward' Greek, then you're making all Illyrians, Thracians etc as backward Greeks!!! I am pretty convinced that both of these peoples were related closely with one another. How can be explained that ancients frequently confuse them with one another. For example, one author said that X tribe is Illyrian, others says that this tribe is Epirotean. You can't figure any sharp distinction between Illyrian and Epirotes, while in other hand, Greeks themselves reckoned Epirotes as non-Greeks.

No one escaped romanization during the roman empire. Illyria was one of the first areas to be subjected to Roman rule. Even england, one of the last roman conqured areas was well romanized when the anglo-Jutes-saxans came from denmark. I'm talking about the area of albania was under the control of Roman culture from 220BC to the 15th century when the Ottomans came, thats 1700 years. If you want to know more about the emergence of albanian ethos I think you need to look at the years during Ottoman occupation.

Nowhere I said that Illyrians escaped completely from Romanization. Even certain parts of Albania (especially the coastal ones and fertile plains) were Romanized as many evidences proves that. But I'd like to notice the very fact that however the southern mountanious Illyrian tribes were able to withstand Romanization. So they retained their Illyrian identity into Albanian one. Check it up the following conclusion:

The native Illyrians and Thracians of the occupied regions retired into the mountains, where they remained unnoticed till the eleventh century, when they emerged as Albanians and Vlachs

ETHNIC CHANGES IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE IN THE SEVENTH CENTURY"
PETER CHARANIS

[Sprinkles]

If R1a carriers were in the Balkans 11,5000 years ago, and the E-V13 subclade only split from an African subclade 16,000 years ago. i find it very difficult to assume that they existed there prior to the indigenous Neanderthal populations.

Since we know now that E-V13 is African, there's neanderthal admixture in European populations (closely resembling the the frequency of haplogroup R), that I is indigenous to Europe, that E is indigenous to Africa - it's retarded to say that E carriers were the oldest people of Europe. Retarded.

Anyone making this claim is a moron.

The capital of Illyria was in Stolac, Hercegovina, where I2a2 has the highest frequency in the world.

At the delta of Neretva, there was a strong Hellenistic influence on the Illyrian tribe of Daors. Their capital was Daorson located in Ošanići near Stolac in Herzegovina, which became the main center of classical Illyrian culture. Daorson, during the 4th century BC, was surrounded by megalithic, 5 meter high stonewalls (as large as those of Mycenae in Greece), composed out of large trapeze stones blocks. Daors also made unique bronze coins and sculptures. The Illyrians even conquered Greek colonies on the Dalmatian islands. Queen Teuta was famous for having waged wars against the Romans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

You Albanian retards are making your people look stupid. The same can be said for various fractions of Balkan populations, but it's obvious that Albanians take the cake.

This fictional rendition of your history is not helping your public image. It may help you, internally, as a clan. But if it does, keep it there, because once you spew it outward, your stupidity reeks to the world.

[Sprinkles]

In Italy is antoher hot spot of Ev 13, but only in Croatia, it is very low, which is proof that Slavs drove out Ev13 carriers.

In Italy, the low percentage of I2a2, is because of interchange population beween croatia and Italy during medieval.

In the times of Illyrians I2a2 was not there.

The strong presence of Illyrians in Italy, is not acfording to low and wek presence of I2a2.

Sorry but your theory is no-where.

Are you the idiot who thinks E-V13 is an indigenous European haplogroup?

Are you serious? Do you know that it's an African branch. That every person with an E-V13 haplogroup had a pure black African ancestor? This is fact. There's no, maybe our ancestor was Neanderthal or some other hominid, your ancestor was black from Africa.

Europe was colonized way before E-V13 even came to existence. You were still in Africa singing your tribal songs and doing tribal dances, without any weapons or shelter. You probably lived as nomads because you weren't smart enough to build shelter.

Now shut your stupid mouth and come back to reality.

Europe was colonized way before E-V13 arrived.

Are you so dumb that you can't see this?

[Sprinkles]

E-V13 never made it to Croatia because of the Dinaric Alps and the difficulty in conquering or even traveling through that route.

Did you even take an introductory course to biology?

Do you know that gene flow is hindered by geographic isolation?

******* seriously. You want to talk about evolution, population flows, etc, and you don't even know anything about biology?

[Elias2]

Sprinkles you don`t have to use name calling.

[Elias2]

Because Greeks applied frequently this term to denote both Illyrians, Macedonians, Epirotes, Thracians, etc. So if you maintain the view that 'barbarian' term had the connotation of 'backward' Greek, then you're making all Illyrians, Thracians etc as backward Greeks!!! I am pretty convinced that both of these peoples were related closely with one another. How can be explained that ancients frequently confuse them with one another. For example, one author said that X tribe is Illyrian, others says that this tribe is Epirotean. You can't figure any sharp distinction between Illyrian and Epirotes, while in other hand, Greeks themselves reckoned Epirotes as non-Greeks.

Again, you havn`t told me what it is to be Illyrian but you claim epirots are them. You say the biggest marker is language yet the Illyrian language is still a mystery because the lack of primary evidence about it. And I`ve metnioned plenty of times now that even though some called them non-greeks others did, so stop pretending to ignore these statements because they do not suit you.

The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides describes them as "barbarians",[15] as does Strabo.[16] Other writers, such as Herodotus,[17]Dionysius of Halicarnassus[18] Pausanias[19] and Eutropius,[20] describe them as Greeks

and stop pretending they did not speak a dialect of North-west Greek. I don`t say that `barbarian`only means backwards greeks, that just one of the several connitations. It also ment non-greek like you said but for you interpret it to mean Illyrian when that is just one of several possible definitions of the word is an assumption.

P.S. I posted an article i found about the albanian language in the albanian language thread, check it out.

[Elias2]

Can we please stop talking about epirus and talk about Illyria, who were they, what were they like, how did they live, ect.