Illyria

[zanipolo]

I agree with some of your points. But the chronological framework of events is not given satisfactorily. The so-called Illyrian invasion in Southern Balkans might have been occurred much earlier than 1000 B.C. Judging from the general upheaval that proceed the Trojan War, proto-Illyrians appears in the very heart of Greece on the grounds that the same Northern toponymes are to be found in the midst of Hellas. It's excepted that they lost their identity with the course of time.

the bronze age migrations took place around 1200BC, yes the illyrians could have been part of this southern migration

You're mistaken mate. It's Alexander himself who did mention the Illyrians in his army. I don't think as wise to consider either Dardanians or Paeonians as ethnically distinct from the Illyrians.

never read it, link it

the Paeoninas where a thracian people and their border is basically identical to modern slavic-macedonia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Paeonians.png

The dardanians where also thracian people ( some say a trojan tribe ) and move from the dardanalles to present day kosovo in 400BC

This is in disregard with the historical truth. Your concept is fairly simplistic because it ignore the very fact that genuine Illyrians (Illyri proper) used to live in the very outlying regions of Greece (whose northern boundary was marked by Ambracia bay and Peneus river). As a matter of fact, Illyrians took part in the formation of Macedonians as well as Epirotes.

Roman historian and text claim the dalmatians, liburnians as distinct different people from other illyrians, they say illyrians in bordering austria and the danube, down to pannonia are of celtic origin.
The epirotes and molossians of madern northern Greece is confusing you with Illyrians.

Greek Epirus, like the region as a whole, is rugged and mountainous.It comprises the land of the ancient Molossians and Thesprotians^[2] and a small part of the land of the Chaonians the greater part being in Southern Albania. It is largely made up of mountainous ridges, part of the Dinaric Alp

The Y-dna E is not illyrian, it can only be a northern greek, epirote , molossian or macedonian

 

[Yetos]

What has to do the nationalism with the above article? You seem to not have full read the content, which is well backed up with ancient testimonies. Anyway, I picked randomly up that article from "Illyria forums". After the reading, I am more inclined to support the close affinity between Hellenes and Illyrians. They were more close to each other than we think. At least, they shared a common origin. One thing that has struck me so far is the fact that Greek historians of XIX century had no issue to kindly accept that Albanians and Greeks were seeds of a common ancestor. For instance, the renowned Greek historian, Konstantinos Paparrigopoulos thought Macedonians as having Illyrian blood. According to him (apologize if my translation is wrong): "The most plausible scenario about Macedonians is that they were a mixture of Illyrians and Hellenes”.

View attachment 5377

The crucial problem is the nationalist attitude of modern Greek historians. They do consider Macedonia as something exclusively Hellenic, thereby only Greeks have claim on it. This is decidedly wrong. Macedonians were constantly mixed with the nearby tribes: their identity evolved with the course of centuries. If Paparrigopoulos scenario is true, then Greeks and Albanians are equal in regards with the Macedonia.

better read again my post and your paradox.
and think and ASK YOUR SHELF
Why Vrygians Leave Makedonia which was Near Greeks as you say and Illyrian, and moved to minor Asia next and Beside the Ionia land and Doris land? have you ever wonder why?

answer is the same,
Bryges were isotones with Greeks part Greco-Aryan family
Makedonians were Greeks who assimilated local Pelasgian and kick Thracian (pieri tribe)

Maybe next time you cook posts and tell us that Orpheus was Albanian too :grin:

 

[Yetos]

I agree with some of your points. But the chronological framework of events is not given satisfactorily. The so-called Illyrian invasion in Southern Balkans might have been occurred much earlier than 1000 B.C. Judging from the general upheaval that proceed the Trojan War, proto-Illyrians appears in the very heart of Greece on the grounds that the same Northern toponymes are to be found in the midst of Hellas. It's excepted that they lost their identity with the course of time.



The mixture which you are talking about was not limited at the royal courts. The Illyrian presence in certain sections of Emathia leaves room to doubt that mixture was massive, even though we cannot define it properly.



You're mistaken mate. It's Alexander himself who did mention the Illyrians in his army. I don't think as wise to consider either Dardanians or Paeonians as ethnically distinct from the Illyrians.



This is in disregard with the historical truth. Your concept is fairly simplistic because it ignore the very fact that genuine Illyrians (Illyri proper) used to live in the very outlying regions of Greece (whose northern boundary was marked by Ambracia bay and Peneus river). As a matter of fact, Illyrians took part in the formation of Macedonians as well as Epirotes.

First of all do you know where is Ematheia and which place is?

Second the Chaonian coins write above them Απειρωταν not Illyrotan why?

now Chaos = Apeiro = Ηπειρος

ok it is time to go back to your kitchen and cook another post
use again your method False+false=Correct

 

[mrikë]

Drdny is same tribal name as Dardanians....

but than you sneak in Dardanians of Illyria, Dardanians are not the same as Illyrians...Dardanians may have lived in part of Illyria...

Personally I like both science and mythology, but I rarely blend the one with the other. And whenever or if I make such a bold statement as the one above, I always make sure that I have a lot of facts to back me up.

During the Bronze Age there are several excavated settlements in Kosova, that are identified to be as typical Illyrian, and such are Shirokë near Suharekë (Prizren), Dubiçak (Klinë), Hisar (Suharekë, Prizren), Vlasnjë, Vërmicë located in the Dukagjini Plain. The fortresses (gradinë, indicating that aren't built in a masonic style similar to the Iron Age fortresses) that are similar to those in the Dukagjini plain built in a hill, are Kamenica, Teneshdolli, Bellaçevci, Cernica, Strezovci, Binça, Suka e Cërmnjanit etc. Clearly I put the names for research purposes only so that one can check up on them whenever one feels in the mood to do so.

Maybe you heard of Urnfeldkultur, a characteristic central European culture during the Iron Age. Well there is a typical settlement for this type of culture in Kosova (modern day Dardania), and that is in Bërnica e Poshtme. Peculiar for this culture is cremating the dead and putting them in urns, as explained by the name. To boldly generalize only by that specification, one cannot relate that with the Aegean swamps. Similar to this settlement is the one in Badovc, Karagaç, Varosh, Paraçini, Rutevci, etc.

Interesting to note about the pottery of Kosova during the Iron Age is its similarity with the ones excavated in Mat(Albania) and Glasinac (Bosnia and Herzegovina).

There have been theories that this "great movement/invasion/swamp" was from the south (M.Garashanin) rather than from the north, and the theories you present have long been around. But, at this point we can only trust archaeology, because the Earth and the pottery never lies .

Generally speaking, I think it is interesting what you are pointing out and, I would be more than thrilled to know there has been some advancements in factually relating the Trojan Dardanians with the Illyrian ones. In my personal opinion, I believe it is so. But in scientific terms, I cannot allow myself to trust your words seeing that I cannot read nesili. I would friendly advise you to do the same.

Now, back to mythology. Funny thing what Appian wrote in his book Illyr, IV 2 : " The sons of Illyrius were Enhelaos, Autarius, Dardanius, Medius, Taulantius and Perrebius." He goes on to name the daughters of Illyrius and Hermione, which we can note as other Illyrian tribe names. But then again this is just mythology.

 

[Sile]

Personally I like both science and mythology, but I rarely blend the one with the other. And whenever or if I make such a bold statement as the one above, I always make sure that I have a lot of facts to back me up.

During the Bronze Age there are several excavated settlements in Kosova, that are identified to be as typical Illyrian, and such are Shirokë near Suharekë (Prizren), Dubiçak (Klinë), Hisar (Suharekë, Prizren), Vlasnjë, Vërmicë located in the Dukagjini Plain. The fortresses (gradinë, indicating that aren't built in a masonic style similar to the Iron Age fortresses) that are similar to those in the Dukagjini plain built in a hill, are Kamenica, Teneshdolli, Bellaçevci, Cernica, Strezovci, Binça, Suka e Cërmnjanit etc. Clearly I put the names for research purposes only so that one can check up on them whenever one feels in the mood to do so.

Maybe you heard of Urnfeldkultur, a characteristic central European culture during the Iron Age. Well there is a typical settlement for this type of culture in Kosova (modern day Dardania), and that is in Bërnica e Poshtme. Peculiar for this culture is cremating the dead and putting them in urns, as explained by the name. To boldly generalize only by that specification, one cannot relate that with the Aegean swamps. Similar to this settlement is the one in Badovc, Karagaç, Varosh, Paraçini, Rutevci, etc.

Interesting to note about the pottery of Kosova during the Iron Age is its similarity with the ones excavated in Mat(Albania) and Glasinac (Bosnia and Herzegovina).

There have been theories that this "great movement/invasion/swamp" was from the south (M.Garashanin) rather than from the north, and the theories you present have long been around. But, at this point we can only trust archaeology, because the Earth and the pottery never lies .

Generally speaking, I think it is interesting what you are pointing out and, I would be more than thrilled to know there has been some advancements in factually relating the Trojan Dardanians with the Illyrian ones. In my personal opinion, I believe it is so. But in scientific terms, I cannot allow myself to trust your words seeing that I cannot read nesili. I would friendly advise you to do the same.

Now, back to mythology. Funny thing what Appian wrote in his book Illyr, IV 2 : " The sons of Illyrius were Enhelaos, Autarius, Dardanius, Medius, Taulantius and Perrebius." He goes on to name the daughters of Illyrius and Hermione, which we can note as other Illyrian tribe names. But then again this is just mythology.

cremations and in urns, so,!!!.......... many races did this including the Romans, cremate, place in urn, cover with shroud, ( pre Roman empire, this was the normal practice in the times of the Roman Republic)
Maybe it was aboriginal people who first cremated 20000 years ago... search for the Mungo Lady , that started it all

 

[mrikë]

cremations and in urns, so,!!!.......... many races did this including the Romans, cremate, place in urn, cover with shroud, ( pre Roman empire, this was the normal practice in the times of the Roman Republic)
Maybe it was aboriginal people who first cremated 20000 years ago... search for the Mungo Lady , that started it all

You haven't ever stumbled upon any archaeological literature, have you? Never mind that, pray tell me how does the Mungo Lady correlate to anything we're discussing?

 

[Zajaz]

the Paeoninas where a thracian people and their border is basically identical to modern slavic-macedonia

The Thracian character of Paeonians is questioned by the fact that they had a distinct culture. Moreover, the ancient sources at our disposal are abundantly clear that Paeonians were not Thracians; their language is linked intimately with that of Mysians (close to Illyrian). The British archeologist, N.G.L. Hammond thought Paones to be the successors of the Iron-Age Illyrians, for they were scattered in most of modern Macedonia as far as Strymon. The tribe of Maedes (Spartacus is thought to have been from that tribe) are credited to be Illyrians in terms of archeology.

The dardanians where also thracian people ( some say a trojan tribe ) and move from the dardanalles to present day kosovo in 400BC

The Thracian being of Dardani is nowhere suggested, at least in ancient testimonies. They were reckoned undoubtedly as one of many Illyrian tribes. In archeological point of view, the excavators throughout Kosova have yielded a culture similar to that of other Illyrians. The thorough linguistic studies revealed the very fact that Illyrian names prevails numerically in the Dardania, while Thracian ones are centered chiefly in the eastern corners of Dardania. R. Katicic, a noteworthy Croatian linguist ranked Dardania as an Illyrian onomastic region. Needless to say, in Dardania are found in so far some distinct names (neither Illyrian nor Thracian) which are not found elsewhere. The connection of the Dardani with the Troy laid upon archeological & mythological arguments. According to the opinion of most scholars, Dardani poured in the direction of Asia Minor somewhere at XII century B.C if not even earlier. It's true that Dardani for most of antic period were in constant interference with adjacent Thracian tribes, but this doesn't mean that they were Thracian, does it?

 

[Yetos]

The Thracian character of Paeonians is questioned by the fact that they had a distinct culture. Moreover, the ancient sources at our disposal are abundantly clear that Paeonians were not Thracians; their language is linked intimately with that of Mysians (close to Illyrian). The British archeologist, N.G.L. Hammond thought Paones to be the successors of the Iron-Age Illyrians, for they were scattered in most of modern Macedonia as far as Strymon. The tribe of Maedes (Spartacus is thought to have been from that tribe) are credited to be Illyrians in terms of archeology.



The Thracian being of Dardani is nowhere suggested, at least in ancient testimonies. They were reckoned undoubtedly as one of many Illyrian tribes. In archeological point of view, the excavators throughout Kosova have yielded a culture similar to that of other Illyrians. The thorough linguistic studies revealed the very fact that Illyrian names prevails numerically in the Dardania, while Thracian ones are centered chiefly in the eastern corners of Dardania. R. Katicic, a noteworthy Croatian linguist ranked Dardania as an Illyrian onomastic region. Needless to say, in Dardania are found in so far some distinct names (neither Illyrian nor Thracian) which are not found elsewhere. The connection of the Dardani with the Troy laid upon archeological & mythological arguments. According to the opinion of most scholars, Dardani poured in the direction of Asia Minor somewhere at XII century B.C if not even earlier. It's true that Dardani for most of antic period were in constant interference with adjacent Thracian tribes, but this doesn't mean that they were Thracian, does it?

well Dardani are considered as Illyro-Thracian, not pure Illyrian, not pure Thracian,
the case of Troy is suggested by many, but we know troy was a naval people, like etruscans, and not inland like thracians,
the myth gives that Dardanos left Thebes to troy
and not Dardania to Troy, neither from Troy to Dardania, but from troy to Etruria
but makes clear that Chaon was from troy, Chaonia is area so far and so near at southwest of Dardania,
Chaonians are considered Pelasgian, non IE pop that were assimilated by Illyrians and Greeks (especially makedonians)

 

[Eldritch]

I tend to believe that Montenegro/Northern Albania was the urheimat of the Illyrians.

 

[Alban]

Can please someone explain me why Pelasgians ¨Greek forefathers¨ fought against greeks in the war of Troy beeing the allies of Trojans,Thracians & Dardanians?Didn t all the greeks unite in this war? Why Pelasgians were not in greek s side??

 

[MOESAN]

Can please someone explain me why Pelasgians ¨Greek forefathers¨ fought against greeks in the war of Troy beeing the allies of Trojans,Thracians & Dardanians?Didn t all the greeks unite in this war? Why Pelasgians were not in greek s side??

I don'tn know if it could help but a majority of scholars (according to B.SERGENT) seam considering DARDANI as branch of I-E Anatolians, maybe Louwitians, and pushed by Phrygians/Brygians and Thracians into Anatolia (as was been Hittites) for some of them and into Greece for some others of them (Pelasgians) - So Dardani in Illyrians lands could be a "lost tribe" incorporated in the lllyrian territory - it seams to someones that Dardani was the founders of Troia 1 and so it would not be astonishing if Pelasgians from same stock fought against Greeks in the war of Greece against Troia (even if that occurred long time after the founder of Troia 1 ?) I MAID apparently A MISTAKE IN ANOTHER POST ON ANOTHER THREAD when associating Dalmatia and old Illyria (and Y-I2a1b) - what could be said is that the roman Illyricum is by far too large to describe genuine Illyria - for linguists the illyrian language concerning phonetics should be close to thracian-dacian (çatem) and messapian? AND also to albanian - they insist for a complete difference from ancient venetian languages (closer to italic) -

 

[Yetos]

Can please someone explain me why Pelasgians ¨Greek forefathers¨ fought against greeks in the war of Troy beeing the allies of Trojans,Thracians & Dardanians?Didn t all the greeks unite in this war? Why Pelasgians were not in greek s side??

At the time of Troyan war nationalities had nothing to do with today meaning,

with the term Pelasgian we describe a non IE culture but that does not mean a country-nation or a state as today,
to understand better try to get in sociaety and political of 'Peloponesian wars' by thoukidides and then you realize better,

well the start of the war it was not Helen the charming woman but the Milletus wars (millawata) as described in Hettit archaiology scrolls,
it seems like Pelasgians when Hettits enter minor Asia start piracy and Myceneans and Minyans start to resist,

the term Greek is not correct for Troyan war, neither the term Pelasgian,
it was Myceneans and its allies with Troyans and its allies
although by today we recogn that Myceneans were IE and proto Greeks,

now about Greeks the terminology is exonyme, given by Italians and as endonyme is tribal name or a class name of Priests of Dodona and their cities near Kyme -Cyme
Greek unification movement or identification started at 900-800 BC by unifing Pelasgians with IE
Starting point is consider the death of Kodros king of Athens,
allthough the correct word is Hellenes instead of Greeks either by Pelasgian El-La (sun-stones, Holy stones)
either by IE Ell-eron (Eel river people, cheli-nioi -> Hellenes)

the psychology of the Troyan war is not like modern wars.


Personally i consider Troyans as Hatians not Pelasgians
I mean the family name is Hatians and sub-tribes are
Troyans
Pelasgians
Etruscans
Lycaonians
etc

 

[zanipolo]

I don'tn know if it could help but a majority of scholars (according to B.SERGENT) seam considering DARDANI as branch of I-E Anatolians, maybe Louwitians, and pushed by Phrygians/Brygians and Thracians into Anatolia (as was been Hittites) for some of them and into Greece for some others of them (Pelasgians) - So Dardani in Illyrians lands could be a "lost tribe" incorporated in the lllyrian territory - it seams to someones that Dardani was the founders of Troia 1 and so it would not be astonishing if Pelasgians from same stock fought against Greeks in the war of Greece against Troia (even if that occurred long time after the founder of Troia 1 ?) I MAID apparently A MISTAKE IN ANOTHER POST ON ANOTHER THREAD when associating Dalmatia and old Illyria (and Y-I2a1b) - what could be said is that the roman Illyricum is by far too large to describe genuine Illyria - for linguists the illyrian language concerning phonetics should be close to thracian-dacian (çatem) and messapian? AND also to albanian - they insist for a complete difference from ancient venetian languages (closer to italic) -

the Dardanians of troy and of the balkans are not related
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)

I actually think that the Dalmatians are the only true Illyrians, history says the southern illyrian border was the netreva river, then about 400BC they ( illyrians) marched south and where stopped at the drin river by the macedonians of Phillip II and alexander the great. The border was fixed, the macedonians reached the adriatic and then went south to conquer greece and later the persians.
There was no more major illyrian/macedonian wars, the illyrians did not participate in the invasion of persia by the macedonians.

 

[Dalmat]

the Dardanians of troy and of the balkans are not related
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)

I actually think that the Dalmatians are the only true Illyrians, history says the southern illyrian border was the netreva river, then about 400BC they ( illyrians) marched south and where stopped at the drin river by the macedonians of Phillip II and alexander the great. The border was fixed, the macedonians reached the adriatic and then went south to conquer greece and later the persians.
There was no more major illyrian/macedonian wars, the illyrians did not participate in the invasion of persia by the macedonians.

Interesting that we always had a saying: "push the Serbs back over the Drin river!" LOL

BTW, Dalmatians are pure Croats, because from regions of Dalmatia and Herzegovina, Croat name and rule spread northwards into Panonia, eventually calling it Panonian Croatia.


Most of the Croat "ruler cities"(where rulers resided) are here, it was after succumbing to Turks, and Venetians, after being attack from practically all sides, name was changed back to Roman Dalmatia, while Croatian name remained up north where political union with Hungary happen, losing the "Panonian" in the name.

 

[Endri]

Interesting that we always had a saying: "push the Serbs back over the Drin river!" LOL

BTW, Dalmatians are pure Croats, because from regions of Dalmatia and Herzegovina, Croat name and rule spread northwards into Panonia, eventually calling it Panonian Croatia.


Most of the Croat "ruler cities"(where rulers resided) are here, it was after succumbing to Turks, and Venetians, after being attack from practically all sides, name was changed back to Roman Dalmatia, while Croatian name remained up north where political union with Hungary happen, losing the "Panonian" in the name.

I highly doubt that anything in the Balkans in pure, so i doubt Dalmatians are pure Croatians, now or even more in the medieval times.

If the Croatians nation was first created in the Dalmatia region it most likely means that the ruling class on that region was Croat/Slavic nothing more nothing less and if Croats gave up so easily on it, it means that they most likely had another "homeland" where to yield back and/or that Dalmatia was a newly conquered or settled land that was of none or little "sentimental" value for the Croats of that time period...

 

[Dalmat]

I highly doubt that anything in the Balkans in pure, so i doubt Dalmatians are pure Croatians, now or even more in the medieval times.

If the Croatians nation was first created in the Dalmatia region it most likely means that the ruling class on that region was Croat/Slavic nothing more nothing less and if Croats gave up so easily on it, it means that they most likely had another "homeland" where to yield back and/or that Dalmatia was a newly conquered or settled land that was of none or little "sentimental" value for the Croats of that time period...

LOL, you forgot to take your daily meds?

 

[Endri]

LOL, you forgot to take your daily meds?

Yea, thanks for reminding me...where would i be without you?

I owe you my life, literally...

 

[LeBrok]

LOL, you forgot to take your daily meds?

Tone down your posts. Attacking members of Eupedia or their nationality is strictly forbidden.

 

[Dalmat]

I highly doubt that anything in the Balkans in pure, so i doubt Dalmatians are pure Croatians, now or even more in the medieval times.

If the Croatians nation was first created in the Dalmatia region it most likely means that the ruling class on that region was Croat/Slavic nothing more nothing less and if Croats gave up so easily on it, it means that they most likely had another "homeland" where to yield back and/or that Dalmatia was a newly conquered or settled land that was of none or little "sentimental" value for the Croats of that time period...

So being there as Croatia for 600-700 has no sentimental value, as well as most of our early independent history, structures and artifacts?
Trol somebody else, name was change for political reasons, to separate us from the rest, and its not like we could chose.

History is much more complex, because prior to Otoman invasion there was turmoil in country, where our nobles and lords fought each other and separated as we lost the King, so we became separated.

Divided and conquered unfortunately

 

[MOESAN]

well Dardani are considered as Illyro-Thracian, not pure Illyrian, not pure Thracian,
the case of Troy is suggested by many, but we know troy was a naval people, like etruscans, and not inland like thracians,
the myth gives that Dardanos left Thebes to troy
and not Dardania to Troy, neither from Troy to Dardania, but from troy to Etruria
but makes clear that Chaon was from troy, Chaonia is area so far and so near at southwest of Dardania,
Chaonians are considered Pelasgian, non IE pop that were assimilated by Illyrians and Greeks (especially makedonians)

Without any personal judgement I recall the position of B. SERGENT (based himself on compilations of other scholars,) that Dardanii could be of Louwite origin, of the same cultural stock of I-E Hittites and other "anatolian" I-Eans, and that, pushed on their back by other I-Eans (Thracians and Co) on Western Black Sea shores they passed in Anatolia, founding Troia 1 for a part of them when an other part of them went into Greece where they were known under the name of Pelasgians (other tribes with them under the same collective name: I don't know).