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Thread: Haplogroup T

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    it seems to me that kurds is under assyrian forum.
    How do you mean Kurds under Assyrian forum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    How do you mean Kurds under Assyrian forum?
    kurds are writing in the assyrian forum when dealing with their ancient theories/genetics/culture etc
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    kurds are writing in the assyrian forum when dealing with their ancient theories/genetics/culture etc
    No they don't, most Kurds who tried to write about their origin were banned by the racist, pathetic, lying Admin and most of his racist and equally pathetic comrades (Birko19 was exception and to lesser extend Humanist). Especially if Kurds try o disprove the lies spread by them they get banned. So the "informations" provided on this Assyrian Forum are biased and not shared by Kurds. Some Kurds are active on the Forum of the Italian Admin "RacialReality".

    I heard the Forum of this madman EliasAlucard was hacked again by a Palestinian whom he banned for whatever reason. Normally I am totally against hacking of websites but allot of people (not only Kurds) will tell you with a smile that he deserved it.

    So if you want to learn something about Kurdish history or Genetics watch out for KurdishDna blog or RacialRealities website. EliasAlucards forums is the least place I would recommend you.

    You have no chance to argue against Elias. When your arguments are to strong for him he usually gives you a QBQ ban ("Quality before Quantity"). His way to get rid of members whose arguments he feels annoyed about and couldn't find any real reason for banning.


    You will never see EliasAlucard trying to argue with someone on a neutral platform because he knows 90% of the things he claims is dung.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    No they don't, most Kurds who tried to write about their origin were banned by the racist, pathetic, lying Admin and most of his racist and equally pathetic comrades (Birko19 was exception and to lesser extend Humanist). Especially if Kurds try o disprove the lies spread by them they get banned. So the "informations" provided on this Assyrian Forum are biased and not shared by Kurds. Some Kurds are active on the Forum of the Italian Admin "RacialReality".

    I heard the Forum of this madman EliasAlucard was hacked again by a Palestinian whom he banned for whatever reason. Normally I am totally against hacking of websites but allot of people (not only Kurds) will tell you with a smile that he deserved it.

    So if you want to learn something about Kurdish history or Genetics watch out for KurdishDna blog or RacialRealities website. EliasAlucards forums is the least place I would recommend you.

    You have no chance to argue against Elias. When your arguments are to strong for him he usually gives you a QBQ ban ("Quality before Quantity"). His way to get rid of members whose arguments he feels annoyed about and couldn't find any real reason for banning.


    You will never see EliasAlucard trying to argue with someone on a neutral platform because he knows 90% of the things he claims is dung.
    ok

    so , the data i gave you was from humanist...do these represent who if we are talking about assyrians. I ask because armenians have their own forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    ok

    so , the data i gave you was from humanist...do these represent who if we are talking about assyrians. I ask because armenians have their own forum
    the Data provided by Humanist about Assyrian dna must be correct I assume.

    I was specifically talking about Kurdish history/origin/genes on which Elias forum is not a reliable source.

    In my opinion Haplogroup T is generally and especially a lower Mesopotamian haplogroup which is where it shows also strong presence.

    Medes in my opinion, just like Scythians or Parthians must have been strong in R (especially R1a with allot R1b and some R2a) and J2 and some G. Ancient Persians were very similar but most likely had additionally allot of T too which they got from the Elamites whom were one of the factors forming the Persian identity.


    Elias Alucard claims Kurds are "acculturated" Assyrians, Armenians mixed with Persians and Turks lol, while if anyone is acculturated it is rather the Assyrians who appear like acculturated Armenians admixed with Levantines and Kurds. he himself is not even purely Assyrian but half Armenian. Also the language spoken by modern Assyrians does not descend from ancient Assyrians but seem like a Aramaic branch. Yet no Kurd would care if they claim Assyrian descend.

    But than if Kurds, who have strong Iranian, native Mesopotamian and Caucasian genetic signature, speak a Northwest Iranian language, which is the same branch as Median and Parthian.
    The Russian historian and linguist Vladimir Minorsky suggested that the Medes, who widely inhabited the land where currently the Kurds form the majority, are likely to be the forefathers of the modern Kurds, also on the basis of historical and linguistic evidence that he gathered.

    Gernot Windfuhr (professor of Iranian Studies) identified Kurdish dialects as Parthian, albeit with a Median substratum.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ropeanTree.svg
    and who live on the very same territory as Medes, Parthians, Gutians and Hurrians/Urartains lived and the halaf culture fits perfectly the geography of Kurdistan and than have allot of tribal names like Alan, Aryan, Saka (Scythes), Guti(Gutians) or Gorani/Gawri (Cimmerian in iranian languages) among them and even been called by Armenians "Medes" and because of that claim to have at least some Median heritage or connection to any other of the above listed people like Gutians, Parthian etc., EliasAlucard and comrades are one of the first to protest and call us "acculturated people with identity crises".
    Last edited by Alan; 14-10-13 at 18:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    the Data provided by Humanist about Assyrian dna must be correct I assume.

    I was specifically talking about Kurdish history/origin/genes on which Elias forum is not a reliable source.

    In my opinion Haplogroup T is generally and especially a lower Mesopotamian haplogroup which is where it shows also strong presence.

    Medes in my opinion, just like Scythians or Parthians must have been strong in R (especially R1a with allot R1b and some R2a) and J2 and some G. Ancient Persians were very similar but most likely had additionally allot of T too which they got from the Elamites whom were one of the factors forming the Persian identity.


    Elias Alucard claims Kurds are "acculturated" Assyrians, Armenians mixed with Persians and Turks lol, while if anyone is acculturated it is rather the Assyrians who appear like acculturated Armenians admixed with Levantines and Kurds. he himself is not even purely Assyrian but half Armenian. Also the language spoken by modern Assyrians does not descend from ancient Assyrians but seem like a Aramaic branch. Yet no Kurd would care if they claim Assyrian descend.

    But than if Kurds, who have strong Iranian, native Mesopotamian and Caucasian genetic signature, speak a Northwest Iranian language, which is the same branch as Median and Parthian.


    and who live on the very same territory as Medes, Parthians, Gutians and Hurrians/Urartains lived and the halaf culture fits perfectly in and than have allot of tribal names like Alans, Aryan, Saka (Scythes), Guti(Gutians) or Gorani/Gawri (Cimmerian in iranian languages) among them and even been called by Armenians "Medes" and because of that claim to have at least some Median heritage or connection to any other of the above listed people like Gutians, Parthian etc., EliasAlucard and comrades are one of the first to protest and call us "acculturated people with identity crises".
    In regards to medes...........the Greek historians named everyone asiatic if they wore pants in the ancient times......even to say they where persians. even phrygians where "asiatic" in their eyes.
    Medes live in modern NW Iran , basically azeri area, the parthians where much east and the bactrians further still.
    The medes would surely also be mixed with the pontic cimmerians ( known to greeks as related to thracians )

    As for modern times...my idea is to allow anyone who wants out of a nation and gain independence should be allowed without bloodshed....similar to split of czechoslovakia . I think its time for the UN to wake-up

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    In regards to medes...........the Greek historians named everyone asiatic if they wore pants in the ancient times......even to say they where persians. even phrygians where "asiatic" in their eyes.
    Medes live in modern NW Iran , basically azeri area, the parthians where much east and the bactrians further still.
    The medes would surely also be mixed with the pontic cimmerians ( known to greeks as related to thracians )

    As for modern times...my idea is to allow anyone who wants out of a nation and gain independence should be allowed without bloodshed....similar to split of czechoslovakia . I think its time for the UN to wake-up
    The Greeks called indeed everyone "Persians" but this because they were foreigners to the region and knew Iranian tribes as "Persians" just like Iranians, Arabs and Turks call Greeks "Younan" yet Ionians were only a tribe among the large Greek people.

    The Parthians did not live much further East. They started in Northeast Iran but spread into other areas (especially Western Iran and Mesopotamia) they were descend of Parni (Scythian) tribe which was in usual contact and admixed with Medes. This contact created the Parthians. The Parthians though living in Northeast Iran had definitely Northwest Iranian heritage. As we see on their language. And they had not much to do with Bactrians (beside being neighbors) which spoke a Northeast Iranian language. And they did also spread and lived throughout Mesopotamia, Caucasus, Anatolia and the rest of North and West Iran. This is evident from archeological traces.

    In other words based on scientists, Parthians were basically Medes+Scythian which had adopted a language rather descend of the former but started as a tribe of the letter.



    The Medes did not live exclusively in Azeri area. This believe is probably based on misinformation on other Forums or on the idea that "West Azerbaijan" province is Azeris because of its name. The name of the province has absolutely nothing to do with the history or population of it. It was given to this place after the Kurdish republic of Mahabad was crushed with help of British-Persian cooperation. The Medes even started in the Zagros mountains in what is modern day Kirmashan and Kordestan (both Kurdish provinces) They spread pretty much all around modern Kurdish region and than Azeri and even Persian territory too. But contrary to Azeris or Persians, Kurds have linguistic connection to them too.

    Azeris are basically turkified Kurds and other Northwest Iranian people. Shah Ismail is a prime example. Kurdish dialects/languages are by far the largest group among the Northwest Iranian languages just like Persian is the largest in Southwest Iranian. Kurdish is indeed that prominent and large that some linguists had the tendency to call Northwest Iranic language family simply "Kurdic".



    And now to the independence. As long as the UN does nothing because the countries involved are strong allies of world powers like NATO or the Russian axis. The Middle East will never change. I go that far and claim the borders drawn in this area are the main factor for the wars and dictatorial systems there.

    to make the Middle East a more peaceful place at least a Kurdish, Druze, Baloch, Allawite and maybe Assyrian (if they would start to do something for it against the Iraqi central government), in the southern Niniveh plains were the make up a small majority, country must be established.
    Last edited by Alan; 13-10-13 at 22:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post


    And now to the independence. As long as the UN does nothing because the countries involved are strong allies of world powers like NATO or the Russian axis. The Middle East will never change. I go that far and claim the borders drawn in this area are the main factor for the wars and dictatorial systems there.

    to make the Middle East a more peaceful place at least a Kurdish, Druze, Baloch, Allawite and maybe Assyrian (if they would start to do something for it against the Iraqi central government), in the southern Niniveh plains were the make up a small majority, country must be established.
    I have a problem understanding the hesitance and lack of initiative of Iraq Kurds to form their own country after fall of Saddam, or even now. One would think that perfect time for independence is when dominant country is weakened.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I have a problem understanding the hesitance and lack of initiative of Iraq Kurds to form their own country after fall of Saddam, or even now. One would think that perfect time for independence is when dominant country is weakened.
    There are several reasons and the Iraqis are one of the smallest of them. Back than when Kurds gained the control over their land in Iraq, Turkey tried everything in it's power to destroy the Kurdish gains and success. Under the pretext of "fight against PKK" they bombed several villages in Iraqi Kurdistan. Turkey threatened to attack if Iraqi Kurds would have moved towards independence. Later Iran tried to gain control over Kurdish land by using the Shia Arabs and el Maliki. And not only because of Turkey but also because of "stability in Iraq" it was not in US interest either. Now the situation has drastically changed and Kurdish regional government has made smart moves and gained importance in World economics.

    I can't guarantee but I assume 2014 will be the year of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post

    In my opinion Haplogroup T is generally and especially a lower Mesopotamian haplogroup which is where it shows also strong presence.

    Medes in my opinion, just like Scythians or Parthians must have been strong in R (especially R1a with allot R1b and some R2a) and J2 and some G. Ancient Persians were very similar but most likely had additionally allot of T too which they got from the Elamites whom were one of the factors forming the Persian identity.

    But than if Kurds, who have strong Iranian, native Mesopotamian and Caucasian genetic signature, speak a Northwest Iranian language, which is the same branch as Median and Parthian.


    and who live on the very same territory as Medes, Parthians, Gutians and Hurrians/Urartains lived and the halaf culture fits perfectly the geography of Kurdistan and than have allot of tribal names like Alan, Aryan, Saka (Scythes), Guti(Gutians) or Gorani/Gawri (Cimmerian in iranian languages) among them and even been called by Armenians "Medes" and because of that claim to have at least some Median heritage or connection to any other of the above listed people like Gutians, Parthian etc., EliasAlucard and comrades are one of the first to protest and call us "acculturated people with identity crises".
    I agree that T-M184 is Mesopotamian, ........but T-M70 is from ( mutated) Uzbekistan area/zone. Somewhere are the mutation of M70 in the area stated they went westward and northward and then later southwards . The south anatolian, crete, chios, samos and other aegean islands have a lot of T-M70 and zero "pure" T-M184

    thanks for inforamtion...I will check on the names you mentioned and also carians, lecians and other minor people in western anatolia

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    Is it just me or is there a minor link between Circassians (Adyghe type people) and hg T? the Adyghe once heavily flooded Samsun in Turkey as migrants and Kabardians, modern day remnants of the Circassians have 15% hg T.

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    Kabardians are an Adyghe people anciently known as Circassians that migrated everywhere that inflationary f hg T are found: Around half of all Circassians live in Turkey, mainly in the provinces of Samsun and Ordu (in Northern Turkey), Kahramanmaraş (in Southern Turkey), Kayseri (in Central Turkey), Bandırma and Düzce (in Northwest Turkey).Significant communities live in Jordan, Syria and smaller communities live in Israel (in the villages of Kfar Kama and Rehaniya)
    Egypt and Libya have communities as well.

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    But I like it when Sile showed us that T-M184 in t's basal form was found only in southern turkey, western Iran and I believe Syria, makes it all so difficult to understand as clade age would point at the central Middle East as T's origin point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Is it just me or is there a minor link between Circassians (Adyghe type people) and hg T? the Adyghe once heavily flooded Samsun in Turkey as migrants and Kabardians, modern day remnants of the Circassians have 15% hg T.
    what is your source for this?

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    Well I figured since Kabardians have 15% K* probably all T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I agree that T-M184 is Mesopotamian, ........but T-M70 is from ( mutated) Uzbekistan area/zone. Somewhere are the mutation of M70 in the area stated they went westward and northward and then later southwards . The south anatolian, crete, chios, samos and other aegean islands have a lot of T-M70 and zero "pure" T-M184

    thanks for inforamtion...I will check on the names you mentioned and also carians, lecians and other minor people in western anatolia
    No problem, its always good to be able to give information about your own people.


    Here I will give you another few hints.

    About the Medes. The first King of the Medes was Diyako/Diako his name in Greek is Deioces.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deioces


    Now the name Diyako is a very old traditional Kurdish name and as far as I can tell but not guarantee it is only common among Kurds in the Near East.



    And since you said Medes were mixed with Cimmerians (which they were obviously and also with Scythians). Here is another scientific theory about the Kurdish linguistic/tribal name used by the majority of Kurds.

    It is Kirmanji/Kurmanji. Now I have red that some scientist believe that this term is made up of two words. Kir which can be associated with the term Kimmerian just like the iland of Krim/Crimea.

    And Manji which is believed to have derived from the word Maji. The Maji also known as Mager, was the Religious Caste among the Medes. This term is the origin of the word Magican used in modern Europe. The Maji were known throughout the antique world as "sorcerer"

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    Some facts about Basal T-M184

    The German in Ftdna is tested for M184+ M193- M70- Lineage 1.1 but FTDNA is not updated and M184 is not recognized as T. so its branded K in Ftdna T project.

    The M184 from Turkey is really an Armenian from Nagorno-Karabakh in the Southern Caucasus M184+ M193- M70- Lineage 1.2 He is tested for L445+ L455+ and FTDNA outdated nomenclature recognize as T.
    Other close to 1.2 is found in Palestine but with Aegean origin.

    The Syrian M184 is tested M184+ M193+ M70- Lineage 2.1
    All M193+ are less basal than plain M184+.

    1.So the two oldest splitted branches of M184 are found in Germany and Caucasus.
    2.The second oldest is found in Syria from an Amenian
    3.Other less older lineages are found in Armenians from Anatolia also in Iran and Kuwait.

    There are other non confirmed as M70- but the y-STR or their tested SNPs looks rather close: one from Aeolian Islands, one from Eivissa and one Balkar (Caucasus).
    The Aeolian one in the FTDNA T project, ...............the Balkar (caucasus) in 23andme, .............. the Eivissans can be found in the last study of the Iberian Peninsula (2013).

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    This thread makes for an interesting read. My great grandfather from France belongs to Y-DNA T1a1a1 P77+.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    this link below places T in northern Iran, while J is in meopotamia

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2...urasian-y.html

    Its about eurasia migration routes - paper is 2013

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    Excellent find Sile, seems that F originated near southern Iraq and moved towards central Iran were at originated; G would then push towards the Caucasus (Georgia,Azerbaijan). K seems to have originated on the Iran/Afghanistan border. From here L would push towards Pakistan/India in the east. T would migrated from eastern Iran/Afghanistan towards the western Iranian/ Iraqi border.

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    The position of IJ isn't correct though in my opinion; it's too far towards Central Asia in one of the photos.

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    How exactly does genographic project work, it says I'm M70+ with this description: Today, it is a significant part of the male lineages in West Asia. It is around 21 percent of male lineages in Jordan. It and several of its subtypes are present in Jewish Diaspora groups such as Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews.

    In North Africa, it is 6 to 7 percent of the Egyptian male population and about 7 percent of the Ethiopian male population. In South Asia, it is 53 percent of Bauris male lineages and 7 to 11 percent of Gond male lineages (India). In Europe, this branch contributes to between 5 and 17 percent of Sicilian male lineages. It is about 5 percent of male lineages in mainland Italy. It varies between 3 and 24 percent of male lineages in Germany.

    Then it links hg T's originswith Emirian culture which sprung up across the levant.

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    It then shows my last mutation as L299+. Description: Today, the highest frequencies of the lineage are in Jordan (16 percent), Egypt (16 percent), Somalia (14 percent), and Iraq (13 percent). It is present throughout West Asia and is about 8 percent of the Druze male population. Toward Anatolia, it is between 10 and 13 percent of male Assyrian populations. In Europe, it is present in England and the Netherlands at trace frequencies of less than 1 percent. It and its descendant branches are present in Jewish Diaspora populations.
    It then links hg T with kebaran culture. M-70+ sprung up 25,000-30,000 years ago whereas L299 arose 14,000-20,000 years ago according to this......is it safe to assume I'm T1a1 (L299)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    How exactly does genographic project work, it says I'm M70+ with this description: Today, it is a significant part of the male lineages in West Asia. It is around 21 percent of male lineages in Jordan. It and several of its subtypes are present in Jewish Diaspora groups such as Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews.

    In North Africa, it is 6 to 7 percent of the Egyptian male population and about 7 percent of the Ethiopian male population. In South Asia, it is 53 percent of Bauris male lineages and 7 to 11 percent of Gond male lineages (India). In Europe, this branch contributes to between 5 and 17 percent of Sicilian male lineages. It is about 5 percent of male lineages in mainland Italy. It varies between 3 and 24 percent of male lineages in Germany.

    Then it links hg T's originswith Emirian culture which sprung up across the levant.
    It would most likely be the Uruk people ....who traveled to the north Caucasus and beyond, and also traveled into Anatolia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk

    And the Elamites

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    So basically you cut it down to iraq's Sumerians and Iran's Elamites; which would make sense considering the frequencies across Iran and Iraq.....so am I L299+; that's what it says my last mutation is and my heat map as well.

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