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Thread: who were Slavic people?

  1. #26
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    Russian primary chronicle claims Slavs originally lived in Noricum and along Danube in Bulgaria and Hungaria of time of writing (1113) ....

    note that according to euroatlas in 1100 AD Bulgaria is part of Byzantine empire....and in 1000AD Hungaria and Bulgaria are looking like this...



    thus, Thrace proper is not originally in Bulgaria while in 1000AD vast areas of today Serbia are both in Bulgaria and Hungary...

    when someone in year 1113 speaks of lands along Danube where Bulgaria and Hungary are, he speaks not of Thrace but upper Moesia (today north Bulgaria and north Serbia) and Vojvodina (province of Serbia bordering Hungary)... those are areas of Triballi, Scordisci and Pannonians... According to Strabo Pannonians also live in Illyricum, that is in Dalmatia mixed with Venetic people that inhabited Adriatic coasts......

    Jordanes says early Slavs are of Veneti race....


    so proto-Slavs were probably not Thracians... but Triballi, Scordisci, Pannonains and Veneti

    following map with genetic clines based on blood polymorphism shows clearly that Venetic people and people around Danube from Panonia to Ukraine are related... note that historic Slavs never settled in north Italy....relation of north Italy, Danube areas and Ukraine is probably reflection of people from whom genetically (not necessarily linguistically) proto-Slavs origin from, while Thracians are not in same layer....but I think that there was linguistic continuity as well for big part of these people...


    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/10...ikes-back.html

    again this is in corellation with Thraco-Cimmerians (who are found in Ukraine, around Danube and in north Italy....note also that according to map bellow there are no archeological findings of Thraco-Cimmerians in Thrace proper but only in Triballi area of uper Moesia)


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians

    note that Thraco-Cimmerians were much deeper in central Europe with strong center further up the Danube in what looks as Bohemia-Bavaria... while clines in people of today do not include that area in same layer with north Italy-Danubian-Ukraine people

    back to tribal name Boii... according to Byzantine emperor, Serbs came to Balkan from land Boika, where they have also originally dwellt.... Boika neighbours Frankia, and white Croatia...
    that is Bohemia - Bavaria where town Sorviodurum (Straubing of today - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing) was and where place names Srby can be found
    ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(D...lice_District)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(P...outh_District))
    ...
    we know that Russian primary chronicle says Slavic people lived around Danube but were pushed north due to Roman spread...chronicle includes Serbs and Croats in those Danubian Slavs...

    ...note that original location of Boii in Bohemia/Bavaria (both named after them) is north of Scordisci who are in Vojvodina, Slavonia and north Serbia... with area of influence of Scordisci (*see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci ) going on south all the way to Šar mountains (named after them, and marking border between Macedonia and Albania - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ar_Mountains), and on north all the way to Slovakia and Moravia thus to Boii.... tribe that entered Thrace from area of Scordisci is later known as Serdi, which is I think just Thrachanized version of Scordisci....

    now Boii are north of Scordisci/Serdi
    Vojvodina is north of Serbia proper...

    coincidence?

    btw. Cimbri are thought to origin from Cimmerians and their king has name Boiorix (which probably means "King of the Boii" )...Cimbri are often paired with Helvetii..
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 23-03-11 at 00:28.

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    [QUOTE=iapetoc;368644]it is imposible a 5 10 15% to change language of rest, except if the people already are familiar to a big % of that language.
    [QUOTE]

    what about latin america? what about turkey? what about hungary?
    Last edited by sir_morphy; 23-03-11 at 00:34. Reason: wrong link

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    [QUOTE=sir_morphy;368688][QUOTE=iapetoc;368644]it is imposible a 5 10 15% to change language of rest, except if the people already are familiar to a big % of that language.

    what about latin america? what about turkey? what about hungary?
    I can't answer about Hungary,

    But in Latina maerica even today natives are spoken,
    remember in Latin America invaders had Xtra power, and written language, Alphabet, (powder vs wood)
    remember ow many years that extra power (powder) and preach and extra push to change and still people speak native, 500 years,

    you can not compare 600 with 1600
    at 600 if local people did have written language, that is why Balto-slavic of cyrill was accepted altough it should have some differences,
    as example, if local people of Serbia wanted to prevail slavic invasion with small help from Con/polis it would be done, how many centuries of roman occupation in balkans?
    at least 700 years as Rome, and at least 1200 as Rome and East Rome, (in Byzantium Roman was primary and accepted language) and Greeks and many others never accepted roman language, only Armani who were original Latino-celtic settlers speak even today dialects of Roman.

    Turks occupy minor Asia 800 years and yet at 1923 40% of people still spoke Greek, which later with exchange of people is almost lost, (from battle of manzikurt 1187 to 1922)
    turkey if an exchange of population was never done, still 40% would Speak Greek,
    Remember the Genocide of Pontic greeks, at 1923, and Armenian genocide,
    but did such genocides happened in balkans at slavic invasions? and if did the today 10% is it enough? to genocide 90% and if a genocide was done probably invaders would be less than 5%, so local people if they wanted they will join Byzantine forces, but probably they did not want, and the war had different % so the hostilities and the brutalities was mainly among Roman friends and Roman enemies at least at 1-2/3 of population
    Besides turks as seljuk were only 80 000 people, as ottomans almost 150 000, if Byzantines did not change religion, language was forced to change, but accepting islam religion they change language also,
    but even from 1100 to 1923 40% of minor asia was speaking Greek,
    although words are imported, Balkans kept their languages as were before turkish occupation,
    and try to expell the turkish linguistic loans, or forced imported words.

    IN BULGARIA ARE NOT MENTIONED MASSIVE SLAVIC INVASIONS, BUT YET IS CONSIDERED SLAVIC NATION,
    WHO CHANGE LANGUAGE IF NO INVASION WAS DONE, AND WHY BALKARS DID TURN LANGUAGE TO HUNIC?
    (balkars are considered hunic, exept if they were already slavic speakers, funny)

    how is it possible outside of Con/polis a fully Greco-roman speaking Capital a small 5-10% change language?
    or con/polis was native Americans with wooden weapons??? (funny)
    no simply south slavic language was familiar and known, and at christianity times enter Baltic branch of language from Cyrillic translation.

    in Israel were alphabet exist, no Greeks, no Roman, no persians, no Arabs, no Egyptians, no Babbylonians manage to dissapear the language, for more than 2500 years of occupation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    so proto-Slavs were probably not Thracians... but Triballi, Scordisci, Pannonains and Veneti
    Byzantines name Makedonia the area of Stara zagora also, is it Makedonia?
    Romans named Illyricum areas of Romania, is it Illyria?

    according written sources tribaldi and pannoni were thracians,

    to understand, it is mistaken to connect Thracian with the area that Epigoni named Thracia, Skopje was Thracia at Alexanders time, is it today?
    Nis was Thracia at That time, is it today,
    Thracia is not the area that Duridanov clames, or Epigoni named,
    the know Thracian by Herodotus and Strabo are these,
    The unknown thracian is from Peloponese and Phrygia to Slovakia and Ucraine,

    in Gennesis Iayan people (Yunan) dwell among Thracians, not south,
    so probably Thracian language and Thracian was also in minor asia,
    Thissagaete lived on Steppes
    Don't connect Thracians with Bulgaria, it is mistaken,
    Bulgaria is only the Odrysse Thracians, and perhaps some Paeonians, and only them,
    it is not the center or the area of proto thracian,
    In fact sesklo/dimini proves the existance of Thracians in Greece before pelasgic invasions,
    Triballi Pannoni are another south Thracian tribes,
    Daci Gaete are the north Thracians,
    Celts probably lived west of Dinaric alpes, and north of carnians (marimbor areas)
    How you explain the Ossariates = lakes,
    and Greek Mt Ossa = water falls, and Ossetia,
    maybe you even claim that baltoslavic went to thessaly before mycenae and gave name to mountain? hmm
    no simply Thracian tribes ocuppy areas from greece bulgaria fyrom serbia, bosna, romania, moldova, ucraine, hungary until chech and slovak, and bithynia, myssian, phrygian moschi (moeschi) cimmerians in minor asia.
    plz do not connect Thracians with Bulgaria, it is mistaken,
    Thracian is the european branch of hettits, and not the Bulgarian,
    Thracian expansion fits very well with I2
    Now about Veneti, I don't know, I have no reason to argue,

    simply Bulgaria and Dacia kept thracian more than others, but that doesn't mean that they are the original, or the only one,

    and to return to the point of the thread,
    I still believe that R1a is slavic ydna, but I still believe that slavic language of balto-slavic is the south slavic language,

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    Iapetoc, it is hard to say about Thracians...
    it makes sense, but I would like to see more indications, as linguistic links do not hold...

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    I find it very illogical that people quote jordanes when stating about the adriatic veneti people.
    Jordanes lived around 600AD of gothic parentage , born in illyircum. Is it not better to get accurate facts from Polybius who was born around 150BC and saw with his own eyes the latinization of the Venetic people ( adriatic veneti) . Polybius said that they where celtic and illyric.

    If people say that Polybius is much too ancient, then why not use the current Historian John Wilkes who is renowned for his knowledge of the illyrian, venetic and epirote peoples ( and others)

    It seems very very strange, especially since I read Italian and venetian archives on the issue

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    Turks occupy minor Asia 800 years and yet at 1923 40% of people still spoke Greek, which later with exchange of people is almost lost, (from battle of manzikurt 1187 to 1922)
    turkey if an exchange of population was never done, still 40% would Speak Greek,
    Remember the Genocide of Pontic greeks, at 1923, and Armenian genocide,
    but did such genocides happened in balkans at slavic invasions? and if did the today 10% is it enough? to genocide 90% and if a genocide was done probably invaders would be less than 5%, so local people if they wanted they will join Byzantine forces, but probably they did not want, and the war had different % so the hostilities and the brutalities was mainly among Roman friends and Roman enemies at least at 1-2/3 of population
    Besides turks as seljuk were only 80 000 people, as ottomans almost 150 000, if Byzantines did not change religion, language was forced to change, but accepting islam religion they change language also,
    but even from 1100 to 1923 40% of minor asia was speaking Greek,
    although words are imported, Balkans kept their languages as were before turkish occupation,
    and try to expell the turkish linguistic loans, or forced imported words.
    so...it's posible. You answered: by religion. Or by sword. In most cases by both.

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    no in fact the opposite,

    Quote Originally Posted by sir_morphy View Post
    so...it's posible. You answered: by religion. Or by sword. In most cases by both.

    Alphabet is stronger than sword,
    and in case of slavic how many years past until Cyrill from invasion 1 century? 2 century?
    yet the Alphabet and the written bible in a familiar language was stronger than any war

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Iapetoc, it is hard to say about Thracians...
    it makes sense, but I would like to see more indications, as linguistic links do not hold...
    I 'm repeating my shelf,
    I am conviced that Slavic Ydna is R1a,
    I am not conviced that slavic language enter from Baltic to balkans, and was not language of R1a,

    I believe that I Ydna existed before J and E in balkans and spoke Thracian east of Dinaric Alps,
    and the more northern Dialects in coexistance with others create Valto-slavic
    Last edited by iapetoc; 25-03-11 at 04:14.

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    They were pred. R1a and I2a2 people.

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    I think that proto-Slavic folks were actually an admixture of Northeast European haplogroup hg. N1c1 and Central European hg. R1a and hg. I2 folks.

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    If it turns that Ra1 and I2a Dinaric were both slavic from West Ukraine and Belarus area, but they lived in separate tribes with strong I2a or Ra1 influence, it will mean that there was a strongest political/national entity that gave both groups same language and culture. And it had to be a very long influence of about 1,000 years. Sarmatia might be a good candidate for this purpose, so how knows, maybe slavic was the language of Sarmatians?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Sarmatians are considered to have been iranic people....
    as north iranic languages were likely very close to proto-Slavic in times when Sarmatians enter Europe, they did easily blend with proto-Slavic people....

    note that Greek mythology derives Sarmatians from Scythians, and those were likely among proto-Slavic people...

    regarding proto-Slavs, see also linguistic arguments that connect proto-Slavs with Scythians, Veneti, Thracians, Pannonians and Pelasgians...

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...f-tribal-names

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    "I can reply only to Q1 : All Slavic languages in the Middle Ages were very close and mutually understandable. The standard was established from the old Bulgarian - linguists call this language the Slavonic. "

    This is a typical nonsense, invented by the "Holy Church" called Church Slavic language
    . Church (Slavic) was not the 1. Slavic language (it never existed in fact as a language). It was an artificial "approximation". And Christianity was not the 1. culture (indeed, religion is a cultural element) of Slavs.

    "as an example word Bog is same to all slavic,"

    The word "Bog" or "Bhaga" - also in several other languages (like Luwian, Sanskrit,...) means "to follow...(laws)". Old Slavs were extremelly loyal to their tradition of Godi (another version of Slavic pre-Christian Bog; God) which followed as days of Gods on the pre Christian Slavic Calendar. 1 cycle per year was called God which also meant "Year" (the term Year or Yar (Jar) means "Young"; "cyclic" (Garden; Yard-en; Gard, Grad) or Leto. Every God has been violently replaced with "saints". 3rd form of Bog was Deva, which was also part of the Calendar. Term 9 or Devetor Deviat includes something which is "godly" and has its own circle...(in calendar). 1 Slavic week called Nedela ("not part of it; "no separation; no "teil", no "work"(people did not work in last day in the week ) or Teden/Tiaden ("dev-den" - "9th day") - "week". 1 Month(Mesiats; "moon") have had 9x3 Teden(s) which followed the Vedic tradition of Nakshatras (Synodic lunar months) of Gods, who were represented as "starry constellations" in: JAV(this is poJAV; "to appear"; visible, born...), PRAV(righteous, fair; realm of gods) and NAV (प्रणव { ॐ }; "pra Nava"(pre Nav); "Om" ; the Astral, primordial, Shadowy world (realm of ghosts, Hell; Underworld). Jav, Prav and Nav were separated between 9th world of Gods around the "mount (and crystal castle) of the World (Mount Meru) and Lower world, which have had 7 lower words (the worlds were unfortunatelly forgotten -read: destroyed by the "holy Church") which were equal to the world of snakes (Patala (Podol in Slovene) or Nagaloka in Sanskrit. In Slovenia survived cult of "golden haired" god Kresnik (avatar of Perun) who was born after nine (Nava) years and lives in the 9th world and is flying on the golden chair. His brother is Trot(also the term for a male-bee; and "lazy man" ) and his 4 eyed dog is his companion. His enemy is "Queen of Snakes" or Vedomec (derives from the term "Veda" (knowledge) or Viešč (Vešč; "skilled"; from this term derives "Witch-er", mage). His another enemy was Veles or Velko, Vouvel, Volvelu, Balon, Babilon(this is "Babylon"; Вави-ло́н (russian, ukrainian readers will understand the point about the " ло́на - Luna (womb) - Вави (ВОВНА)
    ,something which is "rounded(ball)from outside" and "empty" inside like a womb"; Moon... This is the "origin" of the Phoenician (transmuted "Venitian"; "Venetic") Lunar and SatUrn-ian cult of BA'AL or Va'al (the 'letter' V in"YHWH" or YHVVH"(that's why it became an "unknown & "forbidden" name of a "god" (because there is no "mono god" behind this name, but a pantheon...http://www.haaretz.com/news/national...ffled-1.400113) was "representing" the Slavic-Phoenician (Venetic) god Veles or Vol (Taurus) Bull..., before the cult was demonized and perverted into something like this:
    http://image.shutterstock.com/displa...d-76243105.jpg

    note that we "inharited" the Babylonian "7-days week" after Babylonians via the Byzantium (Christian cult)) and "Christian "history" (old Slavic history was totally rewritten and completelly deleted). So, gods control the world from the 9th land (this is Ygdrasil), from the world of Osi (Axis-es(Axes) in the Grad Osi / Gard Osi ("As Gard")... "gods".
    Last edited by Vedun; 05-06-14 at 13:26.

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    The problem with slavs is that they don't even know their own ancient history.

    one slav here says Serbians are the true slavs and migrated north and then east

    another states , ukraines are the only slavs

    while the slavs I know ( 2) both agree that west-slavic are the purest slavs, thenfollow east-slavic and last is south-slavic people ...............what is the truth here?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The problem with slavs is that they don't even know their own ancient history.

    one slav here says Serbians are the true slavs and migrated north and then east

    another states , ukraines are the only slavs

    while the slavs I know ( 2) both agree that west-slavic are the purest slavs, thenfollow east-slavic and last is south-slavic people ...............what is the truth here?
    thats the good question

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The problem with slavs is that they don't even know their own ancient history.

    one slav here says Serbians are the true slavs and migrated north and then east

    another states , ukraines are the only slavs

    while the slavs I know ( 2) both agree that west-slavic are the purest slavs, thenfollow east-slavic and last is south-slavic people ...............what is the truth here?
    In my researches. Poles are slavicised Balts, Sarmatians, Normans, Celto-Germans ad next Slavs. Slavs are I2a1b people. They moved to "Poland" in V century from "Ukraine" turn in VII go south. Byzantine Empire made slavic version of Bible and as a winner "given us" language, religion etc. to Poland, where for 200 years settled Slavs (Serbs and Croats: White). Later we (Balts and Sarmatian in majority) were at influence of Roman Emipre, so we erased glagolica and take Latinica.
    If in Ireland Celtic people speak now german english language are they Germans or English? If in Mozambique speaks portuguese language - are they really Portuguese people?
    And look - in Ukraine I2a1b is still about 20%, ex-Yugoslavia near 40- 50%
    The differences between Balts, Sarmatians and Scythians is subclade under R1a1. Normans is I1, Celto-Germans R1b u-106 ...

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    vandlorm:"Slavs are I2a1b people."

    Surefire:

    More ancient Scandinavians (Skoglund, Malmström et al. 2014)

    http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/04/...-skoglund.html

    Mesolithic Swedish hunter gatherers
    StoraFörvar11 aka SfF11(Male), 7,500-7,250 cal. B.P, Stora Karlso Sweden : mtDNA=U5a1

    6,873 ± 119 BC, Stora Karlso Sweden : mtDNA=U4b1

    Motala1(Female), 6,000BC Motala Sweden: mtDNA=U5a1

    Motala2(Male), 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I* (I P38+, I PF3742+, I L41+, I1 S108-, I1 L845-, I1 M253-, I2a1b CT1293-, I2a2 L37-), mtDNA=U2e1

    Motala3(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1b*(I M258+, I PF3742+, I2 L68+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U5a1

    Motala4(Female) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: mtDNA=U5a2d

    Motala6(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=? (Q1 L232- Q1a2a L55+), mtDNA=U5a2d

    Motala9(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I* (I P38+, I1 P40-), mtDNA=U5a2

    Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b(I PF3742+, I M258+, I M170+, I2 L68+, I2a L460+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS5985+. I2a1b L178+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b CTS5375-, I2a1b CTS8486-, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U2e1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitted_Ware_culture

    Neolithic Swedish hunter gatherers of the Pitted Ware culture

    Ajv52A(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=V

    Ajv59(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U

    Ajv53(Female), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

    Ajv58(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1-P37.2, mtDNA=U4d

    Ajv70(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

    Ire8(Male), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

    Ajv13(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

    Ajv52b(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

    Ajv66(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

    Ajv54(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5

    Ajv36(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5

    Ajv5(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5a

    Ajv29a(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5a

    Fir15(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U4

    Fir22(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U4

    Fir4(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U5

    Fir27(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U5a

    Ire6b(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=T2b

    Ire9(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

    Ire3(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4



    Neolithic Swedish Farmers of the TRB culture, Frälsegården, Gokhem Sweden


    Gökhem4(Male), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H

    Gökhem2(Female), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H1c

    Gökhem7(Female), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H24

    Gökhem5(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=K1e

    Ste7(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=T2b

    Ste7(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=J

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    Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b(I PF3742+, I M258+, I M170+, I2 L68+, I2a L460+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS5985+. I2a1b L178+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b CTS5375-, I2a1b CTS8486-, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U2e1

    Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    I2a is NOT Dinaric!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by vandalorum View Post
    In my researches. Poles are slavicised Balts, Sarmatians, Normans, Celto-Germans ad next Slavs. Slavs are I2a1b people. They moved to "Poland" in V century from "Ukraine" turn in VII go south. Byzantine Empire made slavic version of Bible and as a winner "given us" language, religion etc. to Poland, where for 200 years settled Slavs (Serbs and Croats: White). Later we (Balts and Sarmatian in majority) were at influence of Roman Emipre, so we erased glagolica and take Latinica.
    If in Ireland Celtic people speak now german english language are they Germans or English? If in Mozambique speaks portuguese language - are they really Portuguese people?
    And look - in Ukraine I2a1b is still about 20%, ex-Yugoslavia near 40- 50%
    The differences between Balts, Sarmatians and Scythians is subclade under R1a1. Normans is I1, Celto-Germans R1b u-106 ...
    The weakest point of your hypothesis is low frequency of I2 in Poland. All I2 is at 6% level in Poland. From archeology we know that just before Slavic expansion central Europe was depopulated. It was a time of extremely cold weather, Justinian plague, many wars and invasions from the Steppe, and Germanic tribes leaving this area and going West. In this case Slavs who came to Poland were substantial majority over local populations. In this case we should see I2 at much higher level, same as in Balkans, but we don't. This is telling us that Slavs who came to Poland were didn't have high I2 to start with, but high R1a. If proto Slavic language came from I2 Dinaric group, it had spread to R1a population before they came to Poland.
    Otherwise I do agree that current Polish folks contain elements from ancient Balts, Vikings, Celtic, Russian, Jewish, Tatar and a lot of Germanic.

    PS Did you mean I2 Dinaric instead of I2a1b?

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    LeBrok:The weakest point of your hypothesis is low frequency of I2 in Poland."

    Maybe,but you should understand-finally-that

    modern distribution of haplogroups has nothing to do with hg. origins.Think about the Skandinavian example!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    LeBrok:The weakest point of your hypothesis is low frequency of I2 in Poland."

    Maybe,but you should understand-finally-that

    modern distribution of haplogroups has nothing to do with hg. origins.Think about the Skandinavian example!
    Are you saying that every haplogroup in today's Poland came from far away? That there is no continuity of haplogroups in poland from 5th century AD till now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Are you saying that every haplogroup in today's Poland came from far away? That there is no continuity of haplogroups in poland from 5th century AD till now?
    I am not talking about 5th cent.haplogroups!

    Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b(I PF3742+, I M258+, I M170+, I2 L68+, I2a L460+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS5985+. I2a1b L178+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b CTS5375-, I2a1b CTS8486-, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U2e1

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    I don't know the solution to the puzzle but here is a few hints maybe:

    -Slavs appeared in history right after the Huns disappeared (maybe a couple of hundred years difference), roughly on the same lands from which the Huns disappeared.
    -The first Slavic kingdoms were Khaganates, a form of tribal kingdom common in Central Asia (turkic, mongolian etc).
    -There is less than 5% turkic/mongolian y-dna in Southern Slavs, and that cannot be because of the Turks because even Turks themselves have less than 5%.
    -Southern Slavs have about 15-20% Eastern European admixture on 23AndMe (compared to Kosovars who have 0%) and 35-50% I2a1b Dinaric y-dna, which means originally either I2a1b-Dinaric was not Slavic or East-European R1a was not slavic.
    -Southern Slavs are closer genetically to Greeks, Albanians, Romanians, and Italians, than to Russians or Poles.
    -Christianity and written Slavic were given to Slavs much after their first settlement, by the Byzantine Empire.

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