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Thread: who were Slavic people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vandalorum View Post
    They (Slavs) lived south Poland, west Ukraine, Czech Republic and Lusatia. Balts lived north of them. The invasion of the Huns caused the outflow of the Slavs south.
    You're missing many Germanic tribes who lived in these areas too, like Goths, Vandals, Suebi, and few others.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vandalorum View Post
    Slavic language existed and exist in ex-Yugoslavia people. As portugese language exist.... in Portugal. If in Angola speak portuguese language, are this proud Africans portuguese people?
    Do you have any attestation in historical records that Slavs ever spoke another language than Slavic?

    I would like to add that Polish people took christianity from Holly Roman Empire not from Eastern Church. By logic of Christianity dictating languages. Polish should speak Latin, not Slavic.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 22-06-14 at 20:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vandalorum View Post
    South Slavs have quite a lot I2a1b and R1a1. Real Slavs lived south Poland, Czech, west Ukraine. Balts with some subclades R1a1 lived north of Slavs. In V century Huns invasion pushed forward other R1a1 nations such Sarmatians or Scythians.
    Irish people with r1b and Spaniards with R1b look different. Balts looks different to South Slavs or Ukrainians (with sarmatians subclades R1a1).
    Spaniards speak spanish Irish speak german english language.
    Although the Irish and Spanish both are high in R1b, they don't have quite the same mixture of haplotypes, either Y or mtDNA, and their appearance is also shaped by climate and diet. Why would you expect them to look the same? Although some Irish have a "Mediterranean" look, others have red hair and pale skin that wouldn't flourish in the Spanish sun. And the only reason the Irish speak English is because the English conquered them and deliberately eradicated the Gaelic language from Ireland (for the most part), replacing it with English, so that only a handful of Irish now speak Gaelic. What does that prove? Only that any group of people, including the people now living in Slavic countries, could be partly descended from people who changed their language if a new elite came in and made an effort to change it for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    There was no nation called "Celto-Germans". "Germans" as a nation and as a "german language" did not exist until 16th century "AD". There were only goths. quote: " learn it from slavic version of Bible " about which "source" in your Babble, sorry Bible are you talking about, Pentateuch(Torah / Leningrad Codex), written in 1009 AD?

    Well sorry, i did not find any "celto germans" in any bible and less about any celto-germans. Regards to the "Bible" itself are Slavs described as "Magog" and as a "biggest enemy" to "god" and "chosen people"... Even this word (Magog) was perverted and invented in 11th century "AD" in the "new Jerusalem" or better said Byzantium, from the word Mogol (in old Greek means "Great" and has 0 to do with Chinese ("Mongolian") languages) where Sanhedrin collected and wrote the 1. version of the Old Testament, which became the "oldest Book on this planet" and a "book of all books". The Russian Tartarian Golden Orda from a territory called Mogol Tartaria, which has 0 to do with current Chinese nomads called "Mongols" and originally meant "Mega" (Magna, Mogochny, "great"), became the biggest treat to Yahwistic byzantium and Roman "empire"... and consequently called "Mongolian" and "barbaric".
    This comment makes no sense to me. There doesn't have to have been a nation of people called "Celto-Germanic" in order for there to have been some linguistic groups in the past that could accurately be described as Celt-Germanic. However, it appears that the descendants of Celto-Germanic people got absorbed by other groups, mostly Germans. And yes, there was a Germanic language long before the 16th century AD - there are plenty of old German manuscripts to prove that. And old maps show that there was a general geographic area, referred to as "Germany" in English and by other names in other languages. The fact that the modern German state is a 19th century invention does not prove anything about the Germans except that they were divided for centuries - the German language and the concept of an area generally referred to as Germany existed long before the modern German state did. And what does that have to do with the origin of the Slavs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Do you have any attestation in historical records that Slavs ever spoke another language than Slavic?

    I would like to add that Polish people took christianity from Holly Roman Empire not from Eastern Church. By logic of Christianity dictating languages. Polish should speak Latin, not Slavic.
    Balts (and Sarmatians from Hunnic invasion) from todays Poland and Czech territory were baptized 2 times.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_...#Great_Moravia

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    Quote Originally Posted by vandalorum View Post
    Balts (and Sarmatians from Hunnic invasion) from todays Poland and Czech territory were baptized 2 times.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_...#Great_Moravia
    Not sure what Balts has to do with Slavic language? Sarmatians were Iranic speaking people. Hunnic were probably confederation West to Central Asian tribes and didn't speak Slavic either.
    Not whole Poland but most likely only Wislanie belonged to Great Moravian Kingdom. Unification of Poland came from Pagan Polanie. And even before this time German historians refer to people of Poland as Sclaveni. Why would they refer as such if this poeple spoke different language than Slavic, as you suggest. It doesn't hold water.
    Why would church invent a new language and taught christianity to pagans in it, if nobody could understand this language? It doesn't make sense. Cyril and Methody used language of Slavs because Slavs could understand their teaching in it.
    Otherwise why invent something new, and not use Greek or Latin which were already widespread and functioned as lingua franca? Why completely new language?

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    "Why would church invent a new language and taught christianity to pagans in it, if nobody could understand this language? It doesn't make sense. Cyril and Methody used language of Slavs because Slavs could understand their teaching in it."

    The "sense" about this 'theory' is to cut, annihilate Slavic elements, roots of their people and to "confuse" their languages. The logic is not important. Important is the message within this propaganda and attempt of domination which is a water on a Mill of every "historian" or non historian from this side...

    Regards to "vandalorum". He is representing one of those spineless molluscs, as their minister Radoslaw (probably a "balto-celtic" name i guess) Sikorski already described few days ago, giving a Blowjob... So this is his position. And I totally understand him, do not take my words personally. I would be afraid of Russia too if I would be living in Poland. But I think that those times of Stalin are gone...
    I guess even their most pro western people have started to think about the dangers of the Drang nach Osten also... Half of current "Germany"(which was originally a geographical term) was until 11th century partially Slavic. All the famous cities like Berlin, Brandenburg, Muenchen, Dresden,... have had origins in Slavic languages. This was a 'thorn' in a heel of many Goths and Christian "holy men" in those times. The best solution was an invention of Christianity for Slavs via Cyril and Method. This is how they brought this "religion of peace" to 'primitive barbaric Slavs', with a Genocide and slow parasitism. Even Sweden was part of this project of de-Slovenization. But even Sweden did not "forget" all Slavic words until today, instead of the major silence... brsk – brž, besok – obisk, bunke – bunka, nabunkati, butt – butniti, butati, drag – dražiti, dromme(izg. Dreme) – dremati, dronne – drneti, drysse – trositi, gnata – gnati, gnida – gnida, grabba – grabiti, grunda – gruntati, gunga – gugati, hel – cel, hit – hitro, kopa(izg. Kupe) – kupiti, lank (izg. Lenk) – členk, mange – mnogi, mare – mora, mena – meniti, minne – spominjati se, mole – mujati se, mork – mrk, mračen, pigg – pik, pikati, rafsa – ravsati se, rappa – nadrapati, nabiti koga, sael – vesel, sen – pozen, skada – škoda, spoke – spaka, strašiti, stro – stresati, strype(izg. Strupe) – strup, tanja ut – stranjšati, tiga – tiše, tiho, tiske – tiše, šepetati, torg – trg, tycka(izg.tuhe) – tuhtati, udd – ud, okončina, vadra(izg.vedre) – vedriti, vard – vreden, varg – volk, vingaard(izg.vingord) – vinograd, hraki – hrakelj(izpljunek ob hrakanju), prast – prost, korug(izg.kruh) – kruh, mylnar – mlinar, mylna – mlin, drag – dračje, gass(izg.gos) – gos, kvas – kvas,kvašeno, raka – rak, jordgubbe – jagoda, redding – redič, kvar – kvar, bra – dobra, tarna(izg.trna) – srna, dropp – droptina, strack(izg.strok) – strok, mjod – med, ata,ete – jesti, kupa(izg.kipe) – kipeti, most – mošt, olje – olje, satt – sit, soppa – župa, skorpa – skorja, skinka(izg.šinka) – šunka, skum – skominati(cediti sline), slubre – srebati, slen(izg.slin) – slina, tjock(izg.čok) – čok, torr – trd,trdo, dyrka – dirka, hlaupa – hlapec, sula – sulica, radd(izg.rt) – rit, otta(izg.oča) – oče, dykke – dekle, frakka – frača, loka – lok, pridn – priden, val – voliti.

    All words above are Swedish-Slovenian (Svenska & Slovenska) & I have not even touched any Russian or Polish yet... now imagine those pre "Russian "Vikings"(no, i am not talking about Swedish Vikings, Jarls) being in fact only Venetic (Slavic) Variags(which were not the Vikings) living in a city called Stargard ("old city"/ Grad (indeed; "Mitgard, Asgard = Mitgrad, Asgrad.. like "Stalingrad") in current Poland & Germany, who became rulers over Russian Veneti and moved their capital city Stargard to a new capital city called Novgorod (means "New Grad" or "new city")...

    Language is a very powerful thing... If you destroy it, assimilate it, gives you a power over the whole (new) nation. In few 100 years there will exist Historians who will claim that "Poland was never a Slavic speaking territory", because they will already speak German and English with few Polish slavic "remains" which will be telling some different story about them...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    there are attempts to reconstruct Dacian vocabulary

    some of reconstructed words


    1) *aba, apa[14] water, river *ab- ("water", "river")

    ok, this is about river names....
    Slavic ending for river is often -ava

    example in ex Yugoslavia Morava, Drava, Sava, Tamnava, Mlava....

    thus, 1/1

    2) *akmon[17] stone, rock


    Slavic kamen = stone, rock

    thus, 2/2

    3)

    *alda (noun),
    *alta- (adj.)[21] swamp, waterlogged

    I would say this is bad reconstruction as in Illyrian there is
    alt = stream

    Slavic liti = to flow

    thus, 3/3



    3/4 *alm- to flow, to stream RN Almus - no match
    3/5 *amalas mistletoe PN Amlaidina - no match
    3/6 *auras water RN Αύρας - no match
    3/7 *axi- black PN Άξίοπα - no match
    4/8 *baidas frightening, repulsive - bojati se (to be afraid)
    4.5/9 *bal warrior bojnik / vojnik
    5/10 *balas,*balos[24] strong [24] *bel ('strong')[24], - balast = carried weight

    6/11 *balas white belo
    7/12 *berza birch-tree breza
    7/13 *bur, buris[28]
    7/14 *brukla[29] cranberry

    7/15 *buta(s)[31] house, hut, dwelling

    8/16 *čuk-[34] peak, summit *ḱu- ("sharp", "pike") čuka = peak

    8.5/17 *daba character, nature dobar = good natured

    9.5/18 *dava city, fortress tvrdjava = tvrd (hard/solid/strong) + dava = fortress
    9.5 / 19 *degis burning, shining PRN Degis
    9.5 / 20 *dina place, area, plain PN Amlai-dina
    this is Celtic ending!!

    10.5/21 *dikas brave or strong, mighty dika = person we are proud of

    10.5/22 *dita(s)[38] light (noun), bright (adj.)
    11.5 /23 *drasda thrush (bird) drozd
    12/24 *dribas, *drigas[40] wild, restless dripac - punk, corrupt person

    12/25 *duia[43] swamp or mist, drizzle

    13/26 *dumas dark brown tama = darkness
    13/27 *galtis sheet-ice, frost
    13/28 *genukla[45] pasture, meadow
    13/29 *geras[47] good (-natured), kind
    13/30 *germas hot, warm PN Γέρμαζα
    13/31 *gilus[49] deep
    14/32 *gira (giria) forest or mountain gora = mountain
    14/33 *granda[51] plank
    14/34 *griva[53] river-bed or river-mouth
    14/35 kaga[55] sacred, holy
    15/36 *kalas catfish? karaš
    15/37 *kapas hill, slope
    16/38 *karpa to cut, stone [58] krpiti = to sew, to put together
    17/39 *karsa cave kras = carst
    18/40 *katas stall, animal enclosure, fish-basin katun = shepards temporary house in hills
    18/41 *keda chair, stool
    19/42 *kerba swampy ground čorba = thick soup
    19/43 *kerna bush
    19/44 *kerta clearing in a wood
    19/45 *kina dry place in a swamp
    19/46 *klevas maple-tree PN Clevora
    19/47 *krata swampy place or pile, heap
    19/48 *kurta grove, glade
    20/49 *lug- swamp, morass lug = grove
    20/50 *maska pool, puddle
    20/51 *medeka glade, small wood
    20/52 *musas mould, moss
    20/53 *nara(s) river, brook
    20/54 *pala, *palma swamp, bog
    21/55 *pil- to flow ploviti = to sail, to float
    21/56 *preida pine-tree
    21/57 *put- to swell, thicken
    21/58 *ramus peaceful, restful - mir = peace
    21/59 *rō(u)ka drizzle, fine rain
    21/60 *rus- to flow
    21/61 *san-apa confluence (of two rivers)
    22/62 *sausas dry suvo = dry, suša = dry period
    22/63 *sermas river, river-current
    22/64 *skabas sharp, quick, lively
    22/65 *skaudus painful, sad or powerful
    22/66 *skuia fir-tree
    22/67 *skumbras hill, down
    23/68 *spirus fast, quick, rapid brzo
    24/69 *stendas stiff, rigid, viscose stena =rock
    24/70 *suka tear (ripped), gap
    24/71 *suras salty
    24/72 *taras chatterer, gossiper
    25/73- *tauta people, nation, country četa = group of people (forming military unit)
    25/74 *tiras bare, barren, desolate
    26/75 *tut- blow, smoke duvati
    26/76 *upa river
    26/77 *urda stream, brook
    26/78 *vaigas fast, rapid
    27/79 *varpa whirlpool vir
    27/80 *visas fertile, fruitful
    28/81 *zalmo- fur, skin, shield šlem = helmet
    28/82 *zelmas shoot (of a plant) zemlja = ground
    28/83 *zud-as careful, precise
    29/84 *zuras hot, shining zora = dawn
    29/85 *zuv- fish

    conclusion is that reconstructed Dacian words are much closer to proto-Slavic than Thracian words...
    To me all of these words sound familiar and very Lithuanian/old Latvian dialects (modern Latvian is one step away because of Germanic influence and Finnish way of pronounciation). Very Baltic language, very nice and familiar sound. Just my 2 cents :)
    Of Slavic languages that I have heard or know it reminds me most of Polish (heard) and then Russian (know), but if Latvian is step away, modern Slavic languages seem two/three steps away from Dacian but in other direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    "Why would church invent a new language and taught christianity to pagans in it, if nobody could understand this language? It doesn't make sense. Cyril and Methody used language of Slavs because Slavs could understand their teaching in it."

    The "sense" about this 'theory' is to cut, annihilate Slavic elements, roots of their people and to "confuse" their languages. The logic is not important. Important is the message within this propaganda and attempt of domination which is a water on a Mill of every "historian" or non historian from this side...

    Regards to "vandalorum". He is representing one of those spineless molluscs, as their minister Radoslaw (probably a "balto-celtic" name i guess) Sikorski already described few days ago, giving a Blowjob... So this is his position. And I totally understand him, do not take my words personally. I would be afraid of Russia too if I would be living in Poland. But I think that those times of Stalin are gone...
    I guess even their most pro western people have started to think about the dangers of the Drang nach Osten also... Half of current "Germany"(which was originally a geographical term) was until 11th century partially Slavic. All the famous cities like Berlin, Brandenburg, Muenchen, Dresden,... have had origins in Slavic languages. This was a 'thorn' in a heel of many Goths and Christian "holy men" in those times. The best solution was an invention of Christianity for Slavs via Cyril and Method. This is how they brought this "religion of peace" to 'primitive barbaric Slavs', with a Genocide and slow parasitism. Even Sweden was part of this project of de-Slovenization. But even Sweden did not "forget" all Slavic words until today, instead of the major silence... brsk – brž, besok – obisk, bunke – bunka, nabunkati, butt – butniti, butati, drag – dražiti, dromme(izg. Dreme) – dremati, dronne – drneti, drysse – trositi, gnata – gnati, gnida – gnida, grabba – grabiti, grunda – gruntati, gunga – gugati, hel – cel, hit – hitro, kopa(izg. Kupe) – kupiti, lank (izg. Lenk) – členk, mange – mnogi, mare – mora, mena – meniti, minne – spominjati se, mole – mujati se, mork – mrk, mračen, pigg – pik, pikati, rafsa – ravsati se, rappa – nadrapati, nabiti koga, sael – vesel, sen – pozen, skada – škoda, spoke – spaka, strašiti, stro – stresati, strype(izg. Strupe) – strup, tanja ut – stranjšati, tiga – tiše, tiho, tiske – tiše, šepetati, torg – trg, tycka(izg.tuhe) – tuhtati, udd – ud, okončina, vadra(izg.vedre) – vedriti, vard – vreden, varg – volk, vingaard(izg.vingord) – vinograd, hraki – hrakelj(izpljunek ob hrakanju), prast – prost, korug(izg.kruh) – kruh, mylnar – mlinar, mylna – mlin, drag – dračje, gass(izg.gos) – gos, kvas – kvas,kvašeno, raka – rak, jordgubbe – jagoda, redding – redič, kvar – kvar, bra – dobra, tarna(izg.trna) – srna, dropp – droptina, strack(izg.strok) – strok, mjod – med, ata,ete – jesti, kupa(izg.kipe) – kipeti, most – mošt, olje – olje, satt – sit, soppa – župa, skorpa – skorja, skinka(izg.šinka) – šunka, skum – skominati(cediti sline), slubre – srebati, slen(izg.slin) – slina, tjock(izg.čok) – čok, torr – trd,trdo, dyrka – dirka, hlaupa – hlapec, sula – sulica, radd(izg.rt) – rit, otta(izg.oča) – oče, dykke – dekle, frakka – frača, loka – lok, pridn – priden, val – voliti.

    All words above are Swedish-Slovenian (Svenska & Slovenska) & I have not even touched any Russian or Polish yet... now imagine those pre "Russian "Vikings"(no, i am not talking about Swedish Vikings, Jarls) being in fact only Venetic (Slavic) Variags(which were not the Vikings) living in a city called Stargard ("old city"/ Grad (indeed; "Mitgard, Asgard = Mitgrad, Asgrad.. like "Stalingrad") in current Poland & Germany, who became rulers over Russian Veneti and moved their capital city Stargard to a new capital city called Novgorod (means "New Grad" or "new city")...

    Language is a very powerful thing... If you destroy it, assimilate it, gives you a power over the whole (new) nation. In few 100 years there will exist Historians who will claim that "Poland was never a Slavic speaking territory", because they will already speak German and English with few Polish slavic "remains" which will be telling some different story about them...
    Vedun -please! We discussed that list already here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post435692 Five of that words are Slavic, the majority clearly Germanic or based on common IE roots, and a couple are not found in any online Swedish dictionary.
    You Stargard claim has been discussed here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post435491
    And Muenchen is of course not a Slavic name, but stems from Latin "monasterium" (monastery).

    Instead of answering to respective posts, and bringing forth additional arguments that may be worth discussing, you just post the same, unsubstianted sh*t in another (this) thread. This is neither helping the community to gain additional insight, nor your standing and reputation.

    And, please, please, stop posting your "anti-Slavic conspiration" nonsense. My mother-in-law had a Slavic maiden name, her grandfather migrated from Ostrow Wiekopolski to Sczcecin. That didn't prevent his daughter, my grandmother-in-law, to be expelled from her home in 1945 for being German. Yesterday I met my god-father, now 87 years old, a polish-born American citizen. His grandfather fought with the Austro-Hungarian army in WW I, his mother finished her high school in Vienna, still they were Poles to German occupant forces during WW II and treated as such. He acquired his excellent German from a woman his parents in Warsaw had taken up in the late 1930s, after that woman, who had studied in Berlin, had been expelled by Germans from her home near Posznan.
    The Prussian-Polish-Austro-Hungarian history is complicated, but until 1914 or maybe even 1939 more about ethno-linguistic crossover and cooperation than about forced Germanisation or Slavisation. There has been enough disaster brought over individuals that quite happily moved in the "grey zone" of being partly Polish, partly Prussian or KuK Galizian, by political leaders (Germans and Russians and Poles and Czechs), who wanted to sort them into the "German" vs "Slavic" category. Don't also fall into that trap - recognise people as individuals that may have a multi-linguistic, multi-ethnic background! In fact, isn't it that multi-ethnic fluency that makes Europe such a fascinating continent to live in or explore?

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    Volga region could very probably be the place inhabited by some Proto-Slavs (linguistic and certainly partially also genetic ancestors of Slavs) in ancient times. Perhaps the only known ancient tribe which actually had a name that resembles own names of Slavs for themselves, were Slovenoi, mentioned by Ptolemy. And those Slovenoi (Σουοβενοι) lived along the Volga River, according to Ptolemy's "Geography" (2nd century AD). Later Slavs migrated to Central & Northern Ukraine and Southern Belarus, but that was not their most ancient homeland. And from Ukraine-Belarus, they migrated further to the Balkans and to Central Europe, as well as into Ugro-Finnic areas in Russia.

    Lubomir Czupkiewicz in his book "Origins and race of Slavs" goes even further, and places the original homeland of Slavs not in Europe, but in North-Central Asia, just to the east of Ural Mountains. But his map shows that Slavs migrated to the Volga region, and later migrated further.

    So Czupkiewicz's theory does not contradict the presence of Slavs at the Volga River during Ptolemy's time.

    Let's quote Czupkiewicz (he places the original homeland of Slavs in close proximity to that of Iranians, to the north of them):

    "(...) Perhaps at the turns of the 3rd and the 2nd centuries BC, Slavs abandoned their first homeland at the Kazakh-Siberian border, crossed the Ural Mountains and started conquering the land located between these mountains and the middle Volga River, pushing away from that territory Ugro-Finnic tribes of the Ananin culture. Around the mid-2nd century BC, under the pressure of the Huns, Iranian tribes of the Massagetae and the Sakae travel south from the Syr Darya River, destroying the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom on their way. Continued Hunnic invasions accelerated also the abandonment of the steppes of Kazakhstan and Central Asia by other nomadic Iranian tribes. (...)"

    So Slavs started migrating towards the Volga River in times before Christ. By the 2nd century AD they could already be there.

    Later Slavs migrated towards Ukraine, where some of their tribes (the Antes) encountered the Goths, about which Jordanes wrote.

    There is no doubt that Slavs had contact with Goths, because there are Gothic loanwords in LCE (Late Common Slavic) language.

    PhD thesis "Wojskowość dawnych Słowian w świetle faktów językowych" ("Warfare of early Slavs in the light of linguistic facts"):

    http://www.sbc.org.pl/dlibra/docmeta...om=publication

    Author analyses which weapons were used by early Slavs, and which were adopted later (or at least names for them).

    There is also linguistic evidence for proximity between Slavic-speakers and Iranian-speakers in ancient times.

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    Czupkiewicz wrote:

    The Dnipro-Asiatic theory of the origin of Slavs says that Slavs originated in Asia, to the east of the Ural Mountains, at the northern border between steppe and forest (Taiga). Several centuries before Christ they started gradually migrating from that region to the region between the Dnieper and the Bug Rivers (K. Moszynski's theory).

    K. Moszyński among proofs for his theory cited loanwords from languages of typically steppe peoples (Iranian and Turko-Tatar peoples). He also noticed some connections of early Slavic spiritual and social culture with culture of steppe peoples of Central Asia, as well as other oriental elements among early Slavs, like for example their way of using bow (using thumb when lifting bowstring), which is the same as that of ancient Indo-European Scythians as well as Turkic peoples and Mongols.

    Transporting constructions on wagons by Slavs - the linguistic trace of which is the word "wieża" (tower), which comes from "wieźć" (to transport) - was a typically Scythian way too.
    Czupkiewicz quotes evidence for ancient presence of Slavs in proximity with both Finno-Ugric and with Iranian populations.

    He then writes the following:

    Finno-Ugric peoples from most ancient times until the 10th century lived in north-eastern Europe, from the western slopes of the Ural Mountains, across the Dvina River basin up to the northern coasts of the Baltic Sea. While nomadic tribes of Iranian origin - that is the Scythians, the Sarmatians, the Aorsi and the Alans - lived since the 7th century BC until the 4th century AD in the steppe zone in the south, extending from Kazakhstan to the Caspian and Black Sea steppes up to the mouth of the Danube.

    In most of that area territories of Finno-Ugric and Iranian tribes were divided by space of more than a thousand kilometers and only in one place the distance decreased to 200-300 kilometers: between the middle Volga and the southern part of the Ural Mountains. At this longitude territory of Finno-Ugric settlement extended more to the south and reached the Kama and Belaya Rivers, and territory occupied by Iranian tribes extended up to the northern border of the steppe, which was roughly along the Samara River.

    In the rest of Eastern Europe we cannot find another place, where territories inhabited by Ugro-Finnic and Iranian populations were so close to each other.

    Therefore it seems that the only place where Slavs in their ancient past could live in close proximity to both Ugro-Finnic and Iranian tribes was the area located between the Ural and the middle Volga, in the north extending up to the lower Kama and in the south extending to the Samara and the border of the steppe. This is a territory of about 200 thousand square km - a land of forest and forest-steppe, with mostly black earth soils. That quite extensive area, equal to 2/3 of the area of modern Poland, could easily feed the Slavic ethnos, which by the end of the previous era (BC) numbered an estimated 200 - 300 thousand people.

    Slavs had migrated there from the borderland between Kazakhstan and Russia, probably at the turns of the 3rd and the 2nd centuries BC, when chronicles recorded in Central Asia huge ethnic movements, caused by invasions by Mongolic and Iranian nomadic tribes from the east and from the south. (...)

    This datation of the arrival of Slavs to the area between the Urals and the middle Volga seems to be indicated also by fact, that during the same time local archaeological culture, ascribed to Finno-Ugric population, which had been developing without interruption from the 8th century BC, known as Ananin culture, collapsed. It covered areas along the middle Volga, lower Kama and Belaya. Population of the Ananin culture were farmers, herders, hunters and fishers. It had the knowledge of smelting copper, bronze and iron. Weaving was quite well developed. Pottery was made of clay. Settlements were constructed near meanders of rivers, surrounded by earthwork ramparts, ditches and palisades.

    The disappearance of the Ananin Culture might indicate that this area was subject to expansion of another people. That people could be Slavs who came from behind the Ural. The Ananin Culture was perhaps not completely destroyed by Slavs, but at least some of its elements had to be adopted by them, for example when it comes to agriculture, weaving, clay pottery, iron smelting, constructing earthwork ramparts, etc.

    There is one more important evidence, which confirms the presence of Slavs in that area. This is the information noted by Claudius Ptolemy in his "Geography", written in the middle of the 2nd century. In part of "Geography" describing areas located between the Volga (Rha) and the Urals (Imaos), Ptolemy mentions a people living there, called "Suowenoi". It is surprising that most of historians are silent about this information and marginalize its important. And these few, who mention it, express a categorical view, that it is impossible that those people were Slavs, because according to them Slavs could not be living so far from the center of Europe, and therefore this name perhaps refers to some Finnic tribe (Suomi).

    Even H. Łowmiański, who acknowledged, that the name could indeed mean Slavs, considered that the localization of their homeland (the Volga region) had to be a Ptolemy's mistake, commenting that: "Suowenoi, due to their geographical location, are unimportant for researchers of Slavic history as a historical hint" (Łowmiański, 1963, p. 176).

    I disagree, I think that we should exclude the possibility of a mistake, because in the same part of Europe Ptolemy accurately located other peoples living in the 2nd century AD near the southern Urals, such as the Alans, the Alanorsi, or the Massagetae. Why should he be mistaken just in case of the Suowenoi?

    From linguistic point of view, the name "Suowenoi" should undoubtedly be translated as Słowianie, or more procisely - as Słowienie. Archaic name Słowienie until nowadays has left its traces in names such as Slovenia, Slovensko, Słoweńcy. One of east Slavic tribes was also called Słowienie Ilmeńscy.

    If we reject not supported by any evidence hypotheses associating Slavs with the Neuri of Herodotus (5th century BC), [etc.] (...), then this info about the Suowenoi is the first historical note, about which there is no doubt, that it refers to Slavs.

    These evidences therefore indicate that the intermediary area, which was occupied by Slavs after their migration at the turns of the 3rd and the 2nd centuries BC out of Central Asia, but before their settlement in the basin of the middle Dnieper River, was the mentioned land between the middle Volga and the Urals.

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    Czupkiewicz also suggests that it is possible that the earliest Slavs - at the time when they lived in the steppe-Taiga borderland in modern northern Kazakhstan and southern Russia - were originally nomadic steppe peoples, and that they settled and became agriculturalists under the influence of the Ananin culture at the Volga River, which had been destroyed by them (but in the process of destroying it they also adopted some of its elements).

    This would not be surprising, considering that for example Greeks were also originally nomadic steppe tribes:

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...NA.shtml#Greek

    the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.
    Indo-Europeans expanded into Europe from the steppes. Each of subsequent waves of IE invaders were originally nomads.

    Why should Slavs be the only (or one of very few) exception from the Indo-European rule.

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    As for so called "Balto-Slavs":

    Balts have about equal proportions of N (Ugro-Finnic) and R1 (Indo-European) haplogroup. Slavs don't have so much N.

    When Balts and Slavs were one people (I agree that they once had been), they could not have N haplogroup in large amount.

    The conclusion is that Balts emerged as the result of Proto-Slavs (or call them "Balto-Slavs" if you want) mixing with Ugro-Finns.

    So it was not Slavs who split from "Balto-Slavs", but rather Balts split first - as the result of mixing with Ugro-Finnic tribes.

    And those "Balto-Slavs" should rather be called Slavo-Balts, or Proto-Slavs, etc., because this shows better what happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    As for so called "Balto-Slavs":

    Balts have about equal proportions of N (Ugro-Finnic) and R1 (Indo-European) haplogroup. Slavs don't have so much N.

    When Balts and Slavs were one people (I agree that they once had been), they could not have N haplogroup in large amount.
    The name says Balto-Slavs but there were no Balts or Slavs back then. We don't know their original name therefore, for the lack of better taxonomy, we call them this name. The Ugro-Finnic N points to the times when some of these Balto-Slavs got mixed with Ugro-Finnic people, thus creation of new culture and new language, with base being this Balto-Slavic.

    There is also an Iranic or better to say Sanskrit influence in Baltic languages, which we don't see in Slavic for such extend. It might mean some extra (third) of Iranic tribes influence over Baltic tribes, or that Baltic was insulated, or proto Slavic got drifted away from the base by some unknown influence.

    I don't think it is a simple case of one language splitting in two due to distances between tribes and drifting away in temporal dimension. It is more of a case of one language (dominant IE) spreading over local language substratum, or invader's language mixing with locals Balto-Slavs, and probably this process repeated more than couple of times. Plus, the languages drifting apart for about 3 thousand years.

    If we could only find writing in Balto-Slavic the case would be solved.
    Last edited by LeBrok; 21-09-14 at 18:15.

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    N in modern Balts I believe is later thing. Given Lithuanian elite was responsible for spread of Baltic specific clade (cousin to Varangian one) I think it was introduced in 600-900 AD in Baltics by Varyags.

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    For me it is interesting the link between Thracians and Balto-Slavic peoples, because there are reputable scientists who find closeness between Thracian and Balto-Slavic.

    According to haplogroups Serbs (as South Slavic people) are similar to Romanians, but and Romanians spoke one version of Thracian language (they were Dacians) before they romanized and received Latin.

    There are scientists who say that language of Slavic people in the South of Europe (Serbian/Bulgarian) was basis for North (East and West) Slavic people, and not vice versa.

    Of course, certainly need more research about Thracian and Balto-Slavic.

    Also, scientists should determine exactly haplogroups of Thracians (whether I2a, R1a, E-V13, J2, etc ...).

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    Sweet people,slav is not race,is culture.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Well it seems that the subclade of N absorbed by Balts and some Slavs - N1c1-L550 - was not necessarily Ugro-Finnic:

    At least this is what user Armstrong01 suggests in this link:

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...lavs&p=2978520

    But maybe that L550 subclade belonged to some Non-IE people who got fully absorbed by Proto-Balts and thus don't exist today?

    There is also an Iranic or better to say Sanskrit influence in Baltic languages, which we don't see in Slavic for such extend.
    There is also a lot of Iranic influence in Slavic languages, maybe just not as much from Sanskrit, but more of it is from other, younger Iranic languages.*

    *Which might be the result of the fact that ancestors of Slavs lived in close proximity to Iranians longer than ancestors of Balts.

    But Sanskrit connections are also there.

    Slavic word "slava" ("fame", "glory") comes from Sanskrit word "sravah" ("glorious activities" / "famous" / "celebrated"):

    sravah -- glorious activities -- Sanskrit Dictionary

    Slavic sun god Svarozic (Swarozic) and words such as svar / swar / skwar, are related to Iranic word xvar (sun) and to Indo-Aryan svar (sun).

    In Sanskrit language, a deity known as Svaraj (note similarity to Slavic Svarozic) was one of seven solar Rays:

    Svaraj definition by Babylon?s free dictionary

    Sanskrit Rays also have an Iranian equivalent - god Ray - and a Pagan Slavic equivalent - god Raj (raj also means paradise in modern Polish).

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    "So Slavs started migrating towards the Volga River in times before Christ."
    First, there was no Christ and second, there was no major migration of Slavs, ever.

    "There is no doubt that Slavs had contact with Goths, because there are Gothic loanwords in LCE (Late Common Slavic) language."

    I can give you 500 Slovene words which have identical Lingual roots to Akkadian and above 300 words from Egyptian-Slovene-Punic-Sanskrit... Another example is the use of the Egyptian word KMT or "Khemet" in Croatian Slavonic & Slovenian Prekmurian, as "Kmica" (Kmitsa) which means "black" and "Kmični" as "darkened"... Egypt literally means "Black" in those 2 Slavic languages. So how would you explain it? With allegedly Vandals who came back from Africa and settled down in Pannonia and in (V)Andalusia? So your theory about some major migration from Karphatian mountains, Volga & Dnieper area (only) fails already here and language is the best indicator of this failed theory "out of 1 source only". Another indication are newest archeological discoveries in Slovenia, in region of Prekmurje. Archeologists themselves told me, there is no proof of any major migration of Slavs in 6th century and that they have found the same artifacts , which even predate the 4th century AD ("Scythians" who used same pottery already in 1st century AD) and drive a cultural correlation with the same people who "came" later, after 6th century. But those migrations are unrecognizable (from 1st to 6th century AD, there are no differences). That's why they've concluded, that those minor migrations probably happened because eastern men (probably nomads, soldiers) were seeking brides in the Pannonian basin...
    Last edited by Vedun; 21-09-14 at 16:49.

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    "Sweet people,slav is not race,is culture."

    Germanic people aren't a race either. They are a culture..

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    "Slavic sun god Svarozic (Swarozic) and words such as svar / swar / skwar, are related to Iranic word xvar (sun) and to Indo-Aryan svar (sun).

    In Sanskrit language, a deity known as Svaraj (note similarity to Slavic Svarozic) was one of seven solar Rays:"

    Dig deeper into the meaning of SVARGA. Svarun or Svarozich was nothing else than Vedic god Varuna...who rules over Svarga. And Svarga does not have a root in Hindu, Pali, Bengali, Akkadian, Babylonian, Hebrew, German, Chinese, but in old Slavic language; Svarit or "to boil" (and heat up) and to "transform it" (variti) (chemically) into something new... Variti Pivo (beer), variti mleko (milk) and making a curdled (kisli - sour) sir- Cheese (kṣīroda in Sanskrit)... Ocean of Milk (kṣīroda)- from where comes the Milky way..."Heaven" (Svarga)...

    This is Ocean of Milk... of Svarga, in Svargaloka (Svarogov log; Svarog's / Svaruna's heaven; Milky way)

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2...heese/5776373/

    http://www.ibtimes.com/worlds-oldest...nology-1558756
















    Raj (ray) is paradise in Slavic & रय् (ray or rayate) as "to go" in Sanskrit(&slovene as "rayati"; "celebrating, dancing,...") & Viray as the "splendour. Viraj is the mythical primeval being associated with creation who is often personified as the secondary creator and who can be either male or female"; (transliteration in Slovene as "VEN/VAN"-RAY(out of Paradise") - out of PURUSHA (from this form comes "Parsi"(part); "Persian"... Pršiti - to "spray"(अभि; prusay) as a rain out of 1 source... "radiant" 1 deity...

    But Svaraj and not Svaray is a later Hindi (and not actually Sanskrit) word and means "swa" or "self" - raja (regnum; reign)...

    In Slovene as Raya which means "ordinary people"; Ne-Raya (not raya) as Elites, hence "reign" of Araja (A=Not in Sanskrit; opposite to something; "od", "at") or Arajan ("Ariyan")...But Arya also derives from Agrahayana (Prakrit), according to Brahmin Gangadhar Tilak, which means "Orion" in later Greek... Agrahayana transmuted into Slavic Agrayana (with a lack of "ha") and later into Ogriana which means "to heat up" (warm), shining, white ... "radiant" stars of Orion... Scholars (Astronomers) of Orion & Saptarishi (7 Rishis; Big Bear constellation) brought Vedas to Saraswati and Prajapati in India. (Veda is an abstract knowledge; knan, gnan; dognanje or znanje; In Slovene Veda and Vedenje("knowing") is not equal to "knowing somebody as your friend...", but as "abstraktno poznavanje (znanje), dognanje(abstract knowing, perception, forecasting - things in advance).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    "Sweet people,slav is not race,is culture."

    Germanic people aren't a race either. They are a culture..
    Exactly.

    http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic...-and-ethnicity
    "Fought's latest book on sociolinguistics is informative, comprehensive, and enlightening. It provides an accessible discussion of the interrelationship of language and ethnicity with superb examples of all of the phenomena discussed. A glossary of terms and a comprehensive set of references complement this excellent volume."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_identity

    Cultural identity
    is the identity or feeling of belonging to, as part of the self-conception and self-perception to nationality, ethnicity, religion, social class, generation, locality and any kind of social group that have its own distinct culture, in this way that cultural identity is both characteristic of the individual but also to the culturally identical group that has its members sharing the same cultural identity.[1] Cultural identity is similar to and overlaps with, identity politics.[

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Well it seems that the subclade of N absorbed by Balts and some Slavs - N1c1-L550 - was not necessarily Ugro-Finnic:

    At least this is what user Armstrong01 suggests in this link:

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...lavs&p=2978520

    But maybe that L550 subclade belonged to some Non-IE people who got fully absorbed by Proto-Balts and thus don't exist today.
    In the same forum they had graph of n1c1. Of three brother clades 1 is in Spain, 1 is Rurik's varyags, 1 is Gediminas & Giedroits South Baltic.
    Intuition tells me despite its age it got into those places during Baltic viking age via entering ruling clans in Prussia/Lith.
    Even more so because it seems to correlate perfectly with Baltic tribes around 1000 AD, except golyads which at that time was already surrounded by Slavs and did not get their portion.

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    As to race. Here is the definition of race that I found:

    "(...) If the two populations are so distinct that one can generally tell from which region a speciman was obtained, it is usual to give separate names to the two races. (...)"

    And here from a lecture about assimilation of European and Mexican immigrants into the American society:

    "(...) The European immigrants who came during the great wave had an advantage in terms of assimilation that we don't really talk about much anymore, and that is that they looked a lot like natives. Of course there are some differences, people could look 'noticeably Italian', some people could look 'noticeably Irish', but the differences were small, for sure. In many cases they were non-existent. So once you had immigrants or children of immigrants who began to 'act like Americans', so to speak, they essentially blended in, they were indistinguishable from other Americans, to the point where it is difficult to know if you were Polish or English, or something like that. And that's an advantage that the Hispanics generally do not have. Hispanics of course tend to be a mixture of Spanish and American Indian descent. Most of the immigrants we receive tend to be more in the American Indian end of that spectrum. (...) Hispanic immigrants usually look distinctly and non-White. (...)"

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    1 is Rurik's varyags
    That is probably from Kvens (some of them could be Swedicized Kvens).

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