Politics Should Europeans get involved in Libya?

Questions like those I don't really know an obvious answer for. I think the current situation needs to change though, especially in terms of the illegal imigration as a result of the political climate in the east.

Strick immigration laws are an answer and forced deportations could be used to stop the inflow and more importantly showcase that Europe will not tolerate the disrespect that illegals shows to their political boarders. I'm defenatly not a saint like Anton said, but this issue of illegal immigrations, which is the obvious top concern for europe, needs to be looked at in "push" and "pull" factors. What is pulling these people to risk their lives to come to the EU? and what is pushing them from inside their own countries to come?

The Pull factor are obviously the social welfare state Europe has, and economic possibilities not available in their home country. Push factors can include repression from their government, lack of econommic opportunities, and depression, and war.

Europe needs to tackle this problem at two fronts, domestically and externally. Domestically with strick immigration laws, and externally to support the people in muslims countries who want to improve their state. I think this is the benifit for europe. The world is so interconnected today I don't think its possible to just ignore the problems of your neighbours because it will eventually spill over onto you.
 
Elias2 said:
Well thats just an example of immigration due to war and not due to escaping repression by their government. Europeans are understandably fed up with illegal immigration of poor and religious individuals. I think maybe more pressure should be put on your own governments to change theri policies about hosuing these people and maybe should eye the option of forced deportation.
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Easier said than done. In the meantime who pays to round-up and then feed, clothe, accommodate, give medical care and educate the children whilst all the illegal immigrants are processed. And then who pays for their transportation costs back to their country of origin, assuming that that country will even accept them back of course. Unless you are suggesting they should be thrown back into the sea?

Possibly next time anyone advocates the bombing of a country they should consider that there is always someone else who has to clean up and pay for the mess created.
 
Antigone said:
Easier said than done. In the meantime who pays to round-up and then feed, clothe, accommodate, give medical care and educate the children whilst all the illegal immigrants are processed. And then who pays for their transportation costs back to their country of origin, assuming that that country will even accept them back of course. Unless you are suggesting they should be thrown back into the sea?

Possibly next time anyone advocates the bombing of a country they should consider that there is always someone else who has to clean up and pay for the mess created.
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Well, to be honest, this problem did not just pop up out of no where. Illegal imigration to europe has been going on for a decade now and only now has the issue really started to get serious attention. If such policies been in place form the start there would not be such a huge cost involved, but better late then never!
 
No that is not quite true, illegal immigration has always been paid serious attention and various methods in dealing with it have been tried, the lastest method has proved effective only in some countries. But policies do not stop the people coming you know, it doesn't involve waving a piece of paper headed Policy and the problem disappears somehow along with the cost of it all. No, they still come and bombing Libya has only made it worse. As I said above, in the meantime they still need feeding etc etc.

It is not so black and white, nothing ever is. But perhaps you have never been there whilst half drowned men, women and children have been dragged out of a stormy sea in the middle of the night?
 
I didn't say it wouldn't cost anything, I said if stricker rules were laid out a long time ago it wouldn't cost so much right now. Look you can either just complain about the problem or you can do something about it. Why do you take responcibility when people die entering greece antigone? it was their decision to make the journey. It really shoudn't be greeces responcibility to handle all these people, nor should it be greece's responcibilty to pay for social services for these poeple.
 
Antigone.

EU was paying Libya to take care of the problem. And it’s easy to deal with as there is no Refuge status in Libyan law. So good old daffy could do what he wanted with them.

Also the cost that Italy and Greece has is paid by Joint EU expense account in dealing with this problem
 
Elias2 said:
I didn't say it wouldn't cost anything, I said if stricker rules were laid out a long time ago it wouldn't cost so much right now. Look you can either just complain about the problem or you can do something about it. Why do you take responcibility when people die entering greece antigone? it was their decision to make the journey. It really shoudn't be greeces responcibility to handle all these people, nor should it be greece's responcibilty to pay for social services for these poeple.
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No it is not Greece's nor Europes responsibility but it is still a problem that has been forced on them to accept by the ill-advised action of others.

I think you are missing (deliberately?) the point and pontificating on the rights and wrongs of the problem really doesn't help nor does it deal with the practicalities. Policies do not stop and have never stopped the people coming, refugees do not know of nor do they care what governments in Europe decide.

More often than not refugees don't even have identification papers, mostly their papers are deliberately lost because they know they can't be sent back without them. Officially these people do not exist and unless they and their children are to be thrown back into the sea something has to be done to keep them until it is sorted, if it ever is sorted that is. It is an aspect of the problem that is not solved with "policies".
 
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Aconform said:
Antigone.
EU was paying Libya to take care of the problem. And it’s easy to deal with as there is no Refuge status in Libyan law. So good old daffy could do what he wanted with them.
Also the cost that Italy and Greece has is paid by Joint EU expense account in dealing with this problem
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Yes but it has become so bad that Greece can no longer cope as before and has officially requested help to deal with the amount of people. We just don't have the infrastructure for this many, not with a population of only approx. 11 million.

I haven't heard how Italy is currently managing, it is a larger country so possibly they are coping better than we are?

BTW welcome to the board Aconform.
 
Antigone it can be solved it's just not going to be easy, or cheap. You can figure out where a person is from using other things than an identification card. It's just going to require work.
 
I have no clue what this discussion of immigration is about now. Did someone seriously here suggest to attack Libya, as a long range plan to stop further illegal immigration to the EU ??? Maybe the US should attack Mexico too, in order to make it a better place and prevent further immigration from that country.
 
Elias2 said:
Antigone it can be solved it's just not going to be easy, or cheap. You can figure out where a person is from using other things than an identification card. It's just going to require work.
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Ah Elias if only it was as simple as you seem to think. The point about not having identification is not that their country of origin cannot be pinpointed, it is that their home countries will not accept the refugees back without their identification papers. Refugees know this, which is why they throw their papers into the sea. It is a catch 22 situation.
 
Antigone said:
Ah Elias if only it was as simple as you seem to think. The point about not having identification is not that their country of origin cannot be pinpointed, it is that their home countries will not accept the refugees back without their identification papers. Refugees know this, which is why they throw their papers into the sea. It is a catch 22 situation.
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well that is why Greece must show Humanity?
they know the system in Greece, and there are 3 kinds of refugees
1, is the poor who want work,
2 is the criminal,
3 is the paid refugees,

in 1994 I was in North-West boarder, and I know what I am talking,
my squad only arrested 900 people in 3 months,
I could be rich as soldier cause many of them, mainly 2nd and 3rd gave 1-2 000 $ just to leave them pass,
so the problem is bigger,
cause specially 3rd kind has money and spend, just to take a Eu Identity etc
3rd kind also are clerics, teachers, etc and people who immigrate and get paid by some countries

Don't be strange with the Idea that in 2011 the population will be more than 13 M

In a country that has 74 % unemloyment in north (municipal of Pella), and only 14% in south, what you expect?
Have you seen how these people live?
have you seen medical reports?
the second and the 3rd kind of refugees, are boosted in EU,
with the new laws, in 5-10 Years Greece will be New Mexico of Europe,
a devastastion Entry, the small island before N York Ellis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4wzVuXPznk
in 5 years a population of emigrants will spread Europe,
in modern calculation 1-2 000 000 people will enter Greece every year and in less than 3 years they will spread across Europe, as EU citizens,
same with south Italy,
besides the latest religion informations, and the new ones in a few months, will show that Greece has turn to more than 35% islamic country,

the 1rst kind are the slaves
the second are expelled criminals, or connections,
the 3rd kind are the slave masters and merchants
 
Thanks Iapetoc, I wasn't so much aware of the problems at the northern boarders, it is worse than I thought. I'm down south where we get the people coming across on the boats, the refugees are usually dumped in remote areas where they are looked after for a couple of days by local communities until the authorities come to take them away.

But I'm afraid that my (rather inept) attempt to explain to Elias that the refugee/illegal immigrant problem wasn't as straight forward as he was telling us has, not only taken the thread off topic but it seems to have killed the discussion also. Sorry about that everyone.
 
Antigone said:
Ah Elias if only it was as simple as you seem to think. The point about not having identification is not that their country of origin cannot be pinpointed, it is that their home countries will not accept the refugees back without their identification papers. Refugees know this, which is why they throw their papers into the sea. It is a catch 22 situation.
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Find out where they crossed into greece from, if turkey then make them go to the baorder and cross back. This is not hard, America does this with illegal maxicans all the time.
 
This is not Canada nor is it the US and I'm not going through it all again Elias, go back and read what has already been said if you want answers. Better yet, it would be easier if you just come and sort everyone out, the EU, not to mention Greece, will be very grateful.
 
I read alot of complaining but not alot of possible answers to the problems, nor do I remember you (antigone) suggesting anthing either than the rebels should die in lybia to stop illegal immigration (y)

The Greek government (any european government) can complain all day but that won't stop people from comming. Greece can build a wall on the boarder with turkey but people will still find a way over. Unless there are obvious consenquences for comming illegally, or harsh deportation laws, people will still come looking for free money.

Please share me one Idea you have antigone to stop illegal immigration.
 
Antigone said:
Yes but it has become so bad that Greece can no longer cope as before and has officially requested help to deal with the amount of people. We just don't have the infrastructure for this many, not with a population of only approx. 11 million.

I haven't heard how Italy is currently managing, it is a larger country so possibly they are coping better than we are?

BTW welcome to the board Aconform.
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Italy is far worse than Greece for the prevalence of non-Europeans even moderate-sized cities like Pisa or Brescia.
 
Vallicanus said:
Italy is far worse than Greece for the prevalence of non-Europeans even moderate-sized cities like Pisa or Brescia.
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well Grece Italy and Spain will be the Ellis island of EU,
the strong Euro pushes immigration,
the slave merchants are stronger than we think,
so by helping Rebels in Libya the problem will not be solved,
as example in Greece with don't have Libyan emigrants but Pakistan-Iraq-Albania-Egypt

But as ideology, I believe in 2 things
1 is that no Arab should be killed by Europeans at that rebellion,
2 is to help Rebels organise them selves, and prevent Airstrikes, and can fight back Kandaffi Duck

but seems like Europeans are bombing Libya, and that is not a good point for me,

I am afraid that behind is also Oil,
in some other areas Aid was fast, in Lybia is kind of late,
probably they are trying to bargain oil production,

and that is not a good thing for me
 
My o my...

How to derail from a subject.

We were discussing if Europe should interfere with the future of Libya.

Well, Libya is a rich country and has a lot of opportunities.
Oil, water, Libya is able to grow lots of food.
The point is, Daffy wanted it all for himself and his family.

So, the people revolted, like in all other Arab countries, because of the high food prices.
Daffy is an ordinary fascist/capitalist dictator, filling his own pockets.

I roamed across the internet a bit, and there are some astonishing clues.

Daffy had support from foreign mercenaries. They were hired from a company in Israel.
Go figure that!

Israeli controlled African mercenaries defend Daffy with lots of opportunities to spread terror among Libyan civilians.
Then there is Sarkozy, the president of France, and also an agent of Mossad and CIA.
Obama wants to keep clean hands, and that's why France was fooled to do the first step.
We have been tricked!
I guess the Germans had a good nose for what smells.
Israel is interested in destabilizing countries in the middle east.

The main question is.. Where does Daffy get heavy weapons from?
It really stinks!
 
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