The concep of a "mediterranean" race/mediterranean genetics

[Triskel]

Yeah, it´s the other possibility. Finally i agree with you. We can´t be 100% sure about it. Anyway R1a is practically inexistent in italo-celtic areas. I think that cultural and genetic expansion are related.

My explication: Probably I2 males fought against R1b and they lost. R1b survivors kill males, form an aristocracy and procreate with local females (there were much more females than males sure) and they adopt her culture. I think that in Cameroon was the same history (or similar) and latin america is a good example too, but they adopt our culture (patriarcal). Why R1b males left their patriarcal society and they integrate in the matricarcal local basque society? Probably the number of R1b males could explain it. I don´t know. It´s a good and important question.

[Wilhelm]

Yeah, I agree that the genetic split is younger than the cultural split, it's impossible to explain otherwise. I think it is possible that IE culture originated with R1a people rather than R1b people, and that R1b people were originally culturally Basque (or at least a small component was). Cultural transmission from R1a to R1b could have occurred, and subsequent expansion of the IE-ized R1b people caused the Italo-Celtic language and culture spread in Western Europe. In fact, it seems hard to explain the IE commonalities between R1a and R1b peoples without granting that there was transmission, because their continuity in culture is closer than their continuity in genetics. Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility that R1b was originally something other than Basque, and that Basque is a direct descendant of paleolithic European culture... In fact, I don't know of anything to preclude the possibility that IE originated with someone other than R1a, they just seem to be the most-likely suspects. But my point is that all of these are still possibilities...

No, the basques, maternally, have been living in the area since the paleolithic, because the mtDNA H1, H3 and V originated in the Franco-Cantabrian region, and today H1 peaks in Basques, so we must think the basque people, and their culture, is authoctonous, at least maternally.

[sparkey]

No, the basques, maternally, have been living in the area since the paleolithic, because the mtDNA H1, H3 and V originated in the Franco-Cantabrian region, and today H1 peaks in Basques, so we must think the basque people, and their culture, is authoctonous, at least maternally.

I don't disagree about the paleolithic origin of Basque mtDNA, but their Y-DNA is just as extremely recent. As I explained, it's not clear whether the culture and language came out of their paleolithic-origin matrilines or their very recent patrilines. We don't really have a reference point for the Basques (although Triskel thinks that the Sardinians are a good reference point, which would indicate paleolithic origins).

Some more good reading on this topic: The Basques: Not So Unusual.

[Alonzo]

From a genetic point of view there is no such thnig as mediterranean race.

Thats wrong, Dienekes in his last ADMIXTURE study "Genetic structure of West Eurasians"

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04...eurasians.html

showed that there is clearly a Mediterranean cluster (similar to a "race") in Caucasians.

"At K=5, a new Mediterranean component emerges. This is highly represented in populations to the North, South, and East of the Mediterranean sea. This component is noteworthy for its absence in India and Northeastern Europe. In Northeastern Europe, the Mediterranean component is hardly represented at all..."

Look at K=5 at https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...CKPVjOMP#gid=5

Its distribution almost perfectly matches the description of the Mediterrean race described by anthropologists in the 20th century. For example Carleton Coon :

"Our area, from Morocco to Afghanistan, is the homeland and cradle of the Mediterranean race. Mediterraneans are found also in Spain, Portugal, most of Italy, Greece and the Mediterranean islands, and in all these places, as in the Middle East, they form the major genetic element in the local populations... Who, then, are these Mediterraneans? Nearly all the Arabs, practically all the oriental Jews, most of the inhabitants of Egypt whatever their religion, most of the Berbers, most of the Persians proper, many of the Kurds, most of the Baluchis, a large number of the Afghans and many of the Turks of Anatolia and Azerbaijan. Nearly 80% of the individuals living in the Middle East and participating in its civilization (excluding Europeans) are Mediterraneans of one variety or another; of the other twenty per cent at least half probably show an increment of Mediterranean genes. The Mediterranean race, then, is indigenous to, and the principal element in, the Middle East, and the greatest concentration of a highly evolved Mediterranean type falls among two of the most ancient Semitic-speaking peoples, notably the Arabs and the Jews. (Although it may please neither party, this is the truth.) "

Distribution from Dienekes (k=5) where Maghrebis, Arabs and Jews have highest percentages as described by Coon ... Striking, isn't it ? As usual, genetics very often confirms what antropologist said.

[Wilhelm]

Thats wrong, Dienekes in his last ADMIXTURE study "Genetic structure of West Eurasians"

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04...eurasians.html

showed that there is clearly a Mediterranean cluster (similar to a "race") in Caucasians.

"At K=5, a new Mediterranean component emerges. This is highly represented in populations to the North, South, and East of the Mediterranean sea. This component is noteworthy for its absence in India and Northeastern Europe. In Northeastern Europe, the Mediterranean component is hardly represented at all..."

Look at K=5 at https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...CKPVjOMP#gid=5

Its distribution almost perfectly matches the description of the Mediterrean race described by anthropologists in the 20th century. For example Careleton Coon :

"Our area, from Morocco to Afghanistan, is the homeland and cradle of the Mediterranean race. Mediterraneans are found also in Spain, Portugal, most of Italy, Greece and the Mediterranean islands, and in all these places, as in the Middle East, they form the major genetic element in the local populations... Who, then, are these Mediterraneans? Nearly all the Arabs, practically all the oriental Jews, most of the inhabitants of Egypt whatever their religion, most of the Berbers, most of the Persians proper, many of the Kurds, most of the Baluchis, a large number of the Afghans and many of the Turks of Anatolia and Azerbaijan. Nearly 80% of the individuals living in the Middle East and participating in its civilization (excluding Europeans) are Mediterraneans of one variety or another; of the other twenty per cent at least half probably show an increment of Mediterranean genes. The Mediterranean race, then, is indigenous to, and the principal element in, the Middle East, and the greatest concentration of a highly evolved Mediterranean type falls among two of the most ancient Semitic-speaking peoples, notably the Arabs and the Jews. (Although it may please neither party, this is the truth.) "

As usual, genetics very often confirms what antropologist said.

LOL, why did you stop at K=5 ? He made until K=11, in which the mediterranean cluster disappears and splitts between Basque and Sardinian. There is no mediterranean race, this has nothing to do with race.

[Alonzo]

LOL, why did you stop at K=5 ? He made until K=11, in which the mediterranean cluster disappears and splitts between Basque and Sardinian. There is no mediterranean race, this has nothing to do with race.

Each cluster defined at a given K IS a "race". Higher K only split a given race into sub-races... you can ask Dienekes, he will confirm... There is definitely a mediterranean race as proven by Dienekes

[observatrix]

i think italic tribes weren't of med stock. First because they entered italy fron north east (veneto friuli), before they were stantiated in pannonia near the celts (language affinities due to arial territorial contact). So they were one of those people that came in europe not from the south east

Their appearance wouldn't have differed much from for example the people you will find in Lazio.
Besides Mediterannoids can even found in Russia (Pontids) and as far as in India skullwise (Eastern Med type)
J2b map:

J2Bm102map.jpg

[archaiocapilos]

From a genetic point of view there is no such thing as mediterranean race. The iberians cluster with french, basques and north-italians. There is more genetic affinity between iberians and belgians than with greeks. Also, the distribution of haplogroups is vastly different from Iberia to other parts of the mediterranean.

But from a phenotypic point of view they do look like mediterraneans don't they? Perhaps Y-DNA is not that important when we are dealing with how people look like

[archaiocapilos]

Their appearance wouldn't have differed much from for example the people you will find in Lazio.
Besides Mediterannoids can even found in Russia (Pontids) and as far as in India skullwise (Eastern Med type)
J2b map:

J2Bm102map.jpg

Your map of J2b seems like it is related to Indo-Europeans

[Dorianfinder]

Palaeolithic contribution in Europe, Andalusia has the most after Sardinia :

This makes sense considering that Albania is said to have the lowest levels of Neanderthal admixture in Europe.

[Knovas]

I personally disagree with the figures if the focus is autosomal DNA. Ethnic Catalans are surely, by far, the most Paleolithic due to the huge I2a1a* influence not reflected in the haplogroup frequencies. We have discussed this many times in different threads why Sardinia has a lot of I2a1a*, and why Catalonia shows such huge percent for R1b (recent replacements). I must say considering the present haplogroup frequencies, the figure for Catalans it's "quite" generous, but not enough in my opinion.

Sardinians are overestimated in regards for their Paleolithic ancestry. Several admixture experiments showed they have many influences, as for example the v3 run and the Euro7 Calculator . They are Isolated and very homogeneous due to this, but it doesn't mean anything else: running a bunch of cousins produces similar effects in genetic plots for what I have read.

To make a sumary: the most Paleolithic people you can find in Europe is, almost sure, in the Southwest and in the Northernmost, which has been curiously excluded in the paper. These are the places where it's likely to find reasonable influence of haplogroup I: I2a's in the Southwest (specially Northeast Iberia, but also substantial in the rest) and I1 in the Northernmost (although other types could fit).

And about the so called Mediterranean, I agree that it's more a phenotypic idea than a genetic category. I prefer to use Southern European or Southwest/Southeast when refering to genetics. I find it very useful when this has been done, and also the same division in Northern Europe produces good results.

[Jovialis]

*9 years of genetic research later:

FYI

Analyzing the Mediterranean Cluster C6 from Antonio M et al. 2019

[Carlos]

I've never heard of anyone living in the Mediterranean, I think only fish live. What continent are we talking about?
Firm land that can be walked on, only Jesus Christ walked through the sea.

[Jovialis]

*9 years of genetic research later:

FYI

Analyzing the Mediterranean Cluster C6 from Antonio M et al. 2019

Here are my top 5 samples...

The C6 Mediterranean cluster is predominately Anatolian_N, with about 1/5 CHG, and 1/5 WHG/EHG.

There are some small traces of Natufian for some samples.

At least according to the coordinates I made for this analysis:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...220#post615220

[Jovialis]

Here are my top 5 samples...

The C6 Mediterranean cluster is predominately Anatolian_N, with about 1/5 CHG, and 1/5 WHG/EHG.

There are some small traces of Natufian for some samples.

At least according to the coordinates I made for this analysis:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...220#post615220

[Jovialis]

I've never heard of anyone living in the Mediterranean, I think only fish live. What continent are we talking about?
Firm land that can be walked on, only Jesus Christ walked through the sea.

Jesus Christ would have been substantially Natufian-admixed, thus, not part of the Mediterranean cluster, C6.

[Carlos]

Jesus Christ would have been substantially Natufian-admixed, thus, not part of the Mediterranean cluster, C6.

Ohhh what a pity, as an honorary Mediterranean; although the honor is ours.

[binx]

The concept of a "mediterranean" race is pseudoscience.

[Jovialis]

The concept of a "Mediterranean" race is pseudoscience.

As a race, it is indeed outmoded and pseudoscience at this point. But as a genetic cluster, you can say it is a construct fixed to a time and place. Just as "Eastern Mediterranean", or "Nordic_BA", can be a distinguishable cluster, and construct from it. They are all used in modern academic nomenclature, in the research papers the samples are cited from.

[Ailchu]

The concept of a "mediterranean" race is pseudoscience.

honest question, which concept of "race" isn't pseudoscience?

[Henrique]

Regardless of phenotype, there are no 'separate races' in Europe and anywhere in the world actually. All Europe is a result of the mixture of different populations, only the proportions vary.

[Henrique]

They want to transport stereotypes to Iberia that don't even work in Italy. I was watching a documentary about Friuli in the far northeast of Italy and most of them look as 'Mediterranean' as any other Italian in any other region. In Iberia, the 'north' and 'south' thing doesn't even make sense in groupings. The only difference in grouping in Iberia is between the western part and Catalonia (both grouping closer to the central French) while other areas (such as Aragon) are closer to the Basques.

It is easy to understand: all Europe is the result of a mixture and there is no genetic basis for a 'race' division. The varied phenotypes are also found in all countries despite the difference in frequencies. That is all.

[Henrique]

[QUOTE = Wilhelm; 368670] O I2a não é frequente nos Balcãs.


Não. Do ponto de vista genético, essas divisões não existem. Por quê ? Porque, por exemplo, os ibéricos são geneticamente mais próximos dos belgas ou ingleses do que dos gregos. Outro exemplo é que um espanhol loiro e de olhos azuis se aglomeraria com espanhóis, não com europeus do norte, e vice-versa, um sueco com aparência do sul é geneticamente sueco e se aglomeraria com seus homólogos. [/ QUOTE]

Exactly. Blond Iberians group with other Iberians regardless of phenotype. Just as a 'dark' Dutch or German will continue to group with other Germans.

[Angela]

We're not the apricity. No one is interested in long discussions about how many blondes are in which countries. Who cares?