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Thread: R1b-U152 map

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    R1b-U152 map

    We are al aware of the R1b-U152 map found in the Myres et al paper. I found this larger, more detailed map of U152 below:



    I don't know how accurate it actually is, but there's a few thoughts that crossed my mind:

    If we assume that the U152 marker originated in Urnfield (or possibly Unetice) times, and subsquently spread via the Hallstatt and La-Tene culture, it would explain the distribution pattern. In particular if we additionally take into account the Celtic, Germanic and Slavic migrations, we should get a similar pattern as seen on the map.

    Your thoughts?

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    I think that contrary to Central Europe, the peopling of Western Europe is mainly Pre-Celtic

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    There seems to have a big correlation between the Belgae and U152. Don't forget that they had colonies in Southern England

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    not convinced it is key marker of Urnfield...

    I see it as originally from Lydia in Asia minor, and spread to Europe by multiple sources:

    1) Etruscans and related Raetians (Raetians origin from Etruscans and Etruscans from Lydia in Asia minor)
    2) Germanic Burgundians
    3) Belgic peoples
    4) Franks (they might origin from Phrygians)
    5) Dacians (suggested link to Lycia - south Asia minor)
    6) Magyars? (distantly related to Etruscans?)


    inside Europe also somewhat spread by Celts, but is not original marker of Celtic people... because in Asia minor it is found only in south and not in areas where Galatians lived....

    Venetic people of Adriatic (Liburnians are also Venetic) had some due to interaction with Etruscans...
    Hellenic people (including Illyrians) had some from Asia minor...

    look at Urnfield core marked in red... not too good match... though not too bad either...




    Burgundians
    1Ad, 100AD


    300AD


    500AD


    600 AD


    900 AD

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    curiously, that map is edited after my posts....
    there was spread in Lydia area of Asia minor and now is gone....

    Taranis, can't you use some stable source?

    Btw. in Myres paper
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2010146a.html

    there is hotspot in France approximatelly in this area (Châteauroux)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teauroux

    seems as location of Celtic Bituriges

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Gaule_-59.png

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    That is strange. Fortunately, I downloaded the "original" version (at least, the one I used when making this thread), which I hereby put into an attachment.

    I'd love to comment a tad more on your replies, but I'll have to do that later. Sorry.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    The hotspots out outside of Britain appear to be the Alps, Italy and southern France. This had led several to conjecture an Urnfield, Halstatt and La Tene Celtic connection. That may well be the case. However, there may also be an older connection too...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    That is strange. Fortunately, I downloaded the "original" version (at least, the one I used when making this thread), which I hereby put into an attachment.

    I'd love to comment a tad more on your replies, but I'll have to do that later. Sorry.
    Maciano's map in late 2010 in Eupedia is different from yours , I think Maciano has the latest one as he qouted myers theory

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    What does mean R1b-U152? Where is it so numerous in Etruria? Why in Germany
    till into the Netherlands? The Etrurians and Dutch did not have common ancestors?

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    Guys, if you post the U152 map, that is fine with me, but you have to read what the associated article says and why it was changed. The new updated version is the correct one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    The hotspots out outside of Britain appear to be the Alps, Italy and southern France. This had led several to conjecture an Urnfield, Halstatt and La Tene Celtic connection. That may well be the case. However, there may also be an older connection too...
    Well, the key issue is that it matches the cummulative effect of Urnfield, Hallstatt and La-Tene. Hallstatt was an outgrowth/continuation of the Urnfield Culture, and La-Tene later began at the western periphery of the Hallstatt Culture. It should be noted that the peak in Poland is also a reasonable match with the Lusatian Culture, which also was a continuation of Urnfield.

    In regard for a connection with Celtic-speaking peoples, while it's very likely that Hallstatt and La-Tene existed inside a mostly Celtic-speaking context, the same cannot be said about Urnfield, especially because considerable time passed in the meantime and because a large chunk of the Urnfield areas are later known to be inhabited by non-Celtic-speaking peoples (in particular the Etruscans in Italy, Germanic people in northern Germany, and the Iberians in Catalonia). Consider that a common archaeological culture doesn't automatically imply linguistic homogenity.

    In regard for older connections, given the approximate age of R1b-U152, this seems very unlikely given the apparently low overall relative age of Western European R1b.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    What does mean R1b-U152? Where is it so numerous in Etruria? Why in Germany
    till into the Netherlands? The Etrurians and Dutch did not have common ancestors?
    R1b-U152 is one of the subclades of R1b-P312 (which also includes R1b-L21, which is common to the British Isles), which is in turn part of the subclade R1b-P310 (together with R1b-U106), which makes up the bulk of Western European R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    What does mean R1b-U152? Where is it so numerous in Etruria? Why in Germany
    till into the Netherlands? The Etrurians and Dutch did not have common ancestors?
    I think that both settled Europe from Asia minor... just in different times...

    Hatti (pre-Hittite poppulation of Asia minor) were in my opinion reach in R1b and also with I2*... R1b and I2* that departed to Europe when Hittite came (and before) probably joined I1 and other R1b branches and gave bulk of Germanic people (with I2* giving I2b)... a clue for this is that variance of R1b seems to be largest in Asia minor, and that primary god of Hatti is Taru, which is essentilly same name as Germanic Thor... Hatti might be same tribal name as Goti/Goths and Getae...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

    later Hittite called same key God Tarhun which probably gave Slavic Perun and Baltic Perkunas...

    As for Etruscans, they came much later (in time of 18 years hunger caused by eruption of Hekla 3 volcano
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hekla_volcano in 1159 BC) from Lydia in Asia minor and brought with themselves same R1b and also some R1a, and G haplogroup...

    Ligurians and perhaps even Goths are alternative to Etruscans for source of this branch in north Italy...unfortunately, we do not know much about origin of Ligurians...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I think that both settled Europe from Asia minor... just in different times...

    Hatti (pre-Hittite poppulation of Asia minor) were in my opinion reach in R1b and also with I2*... R1b and I2* that departed to Europe when Hittite came (and before) probably joined I1 and other R1b branches and gave bulk of Germanic people (with I2* giving I2b)... a clue for this is that variance of R1b seems to be largest in Asia minor, and that primary god of Hatti is Taru, which is essentilly same name as Germanic Thor... Hatti might be same tribal name as Goti/Goths and Getae...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

    later Hittite called same key God Tarhun which probably gave Slavic Perun and Baltic Perkunas...

    As for Etruscans, they came much later (in time of 18 years hunger caused by eruption of Hekla 3 volcano
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hekla_volcano in 1159 BC) from Lydia in Asia minor and brought with themselves same R1b and also some R1a, and G haplogroup...

    Ligurians and perhaps even Goths are alternative to Etruscans for source of this branch in north Italy...unfortunately, we do not know much about origin of Ligurians...
    I'm not sure if that holds, linguistically speaking. First off, the Hattians were a non-IE people. Also, Hittite was the most aberrant branch of the Indo-European language family, and probably the first to diverge. I'm not sure if Proto-Indo-European *perkwunas would yield "Tarhun". Also, Hittite is attested from the 17th century BC onward, and the earliest attestation of the Greek language begins only a few centuries later (15th century BC), meaning the major split-up of IE must have occured significantly earlier.

    In addition to Baltic "Perkunas" and Slavic "Perun", cognates are attested in other IE languages:

    - Latin "Quercus" (oak)

    - the "Hercynian" forest (Celtic loses initial P, probably via the intermediate stage of H).

    (I don't know much about the Hittite language, if PIE initial "P" yields "T" in Hittite, then yes, "Tarhun" might be a cognate with "Perkwunas")

    Regarding the Etruscans, I agree that they arrived significantly later from Anatolia (there's genetic evidence that Etruscan cattle was introduced from Anatolia). Etruscan, while non-IE, adopted a lot of Anatolian phonology.

    Regarding the Ligurians, in my opinion they spoke a Indo-European language, akin to Celtic and Italic but part of neither.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm not sure if that holds, linguistically speaking. First off, the Hattians were a non-IE people. Also, Hittite was the most aberrant branch of the Indo-European language family, and probably the first to diverge. I'm not sure if Proto-Indo-European *perkwunas would yield "Tarhun". Also, Hittite is attested from the 17th century BC onward, and the earliest attestation of the Greek language begins only a few centuries later (15th century BC), meaning the major split-up of IE must have occured significantly earlier.
    ok, but what if PIE comes from language of part of IJ people that gave haplogroups I and J2...
    Greeks would have it via J2 haplogroup and others via haplogroup I...
    meaning that I1 was already in Europe and speaking PIE at that time, while R1b dominant Hatti were non-IE speakers... Hatti depart to Europe and there joins I1 and accepts PIE language but push deity name...

    Hittite, upon arrival to Asia minor partly accept language of local haplogroup I2* and become branch of IE themselves...

    he Hittites were a Bronze Age people of Anatolia. They established a kingdom centered at Hattusa in north-central Anatolia ca. the 18th century BC. The Hittite empire reached its height ca. the 14th century BC, encompassing a large part of Anatolia, north-western Syria about as far south as the mouth of the Litani River (in present-day Lebanon), and eastward into upper Mesopotamia. The Hittite military made successful use of chariots,[1] By the mid 14th century BC (under king Suppiluliuma I) carving out an empire that included most of Asia Minor as well as parts of the northern Levant and Upper Mesopotamia. After ca. 1180 BC, the empire disintegrated into several independent "Neo-Hittite" city-states, some surviving until the 8th century BC.
    Their Hittite language was a member of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European language family.[2] Natively, they referred to their land as Hatti, and to their language as Nesili (the language of Nesa). The conventional name "Hittites" is due to their initial identification with the Biblical Hittites in 19th century archaeology. Despite the use of "Hatti", the Hittites should be distinguished from the Hattians, an earlier people who inhabited the same region until the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC, and spoke a non-Indo-European language called Hattic.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    Slavic "naš" = ours, also "naši" is used as abbreviation of "our people" that is as a recognition of belonging to same group... speaking "naški" is about speaking "our" language..

    In addition to Baltic "Perkunas" and Slavic "Perun", cognates are attested in other IE languages:

    - Latin "Quercus" (oak)

    - the "Hercynian" forest (Celtic loses initial P, probably via the intermediate stage of H).
    this is very interesting because Slavic religion is as Celtic related to oak tree...

    (I don't know much about the Hittite language, if PIE initial "P" yields "T" in Hittite, then yes, "Tarhun" might be a cognate with "Perkwunas")
    I think that is possible because I2a people lived both north and south of Black sea...

    Regarding the Etruscans, I agree that they arrived significantly later from Anatolia (there's genetic evidence that Etruscan cattle was introduced from Anatolia). Etruscan, while non-IE, adopted a lot of Anatolian phonology.
    yes, I have seen that one...but also Herodotous wrote that Lydians told him how Lydia people split in two parts (a part that left Lydia gave Etruscans) during 18 years long hunger, and that one is easy to trace to Hekla 3 eruption....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

    Regarding the Ligurians, in my opinion they spoke a Indo-European language, akin to Celtic and Italic but part of neither.
    ok, that makes them good candidate for source of this haplogroup in north Italy... because they are related to Celtic people north of them which is the direction of the spread....

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    ok, but what if PIE comes from language of part of IJ people that gave haplogroups I and J2...
    Greeks would have it via J2 haplogroup and others via haplogroup I...
    meaning that I1 was already in Europe and speaking PIE at that time, while R1b dominant Hatti were non-IE speakers... Hatti depart to Europe and there joins I1 and accepts PIE language but push deity name...
    You are arguing A LOT there which is very problematic to claim, let alone to back up. Why should PIE come from people with IJ? (I'd have said R1b-M269 and R1a1a - the two are the primary candidates, in my opinion). How do you know the Hatti were predominantly I1? And the rest... Occam's razor does not agree with you.

    Hittite, upon arrival to Asia minor partly accept language of local haplogroup I2* and become branch of IE themselves...
    Genetics do not work that way...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    Slavic "naš" = ours, also "naši" is used as abbreviation of "our people" that is as a recognition of belonging to same group... speaking "naški" is about speaking "our" language..
    I don't know if you can compare things that way. You cannot randomly compare words from two languages without caring about their relationship (thousands of years and kilometers apart). In particular, you're ignoring sound laws there.

    this is very interesting because Slavic religion is as Celtic related to oak tree...
    The Celts did not make the connection between the oak and a thunder deity, however, though they did have a thunder god (the namesake of my screen name, Taranis), as did the Germanic peoples (Thor/Donar) - and both names derive from the word "to thunder".

    I think that is possible because I2a people lived both north and south of Black sea...
    That makes no sense. You think a sound law is possible because you think that people bearing a certain Y-chromosomal Haplogroup lived on both sides of the black sea?! Look, what you're saying there makes absolutely no sense, PERIOD.

    yes, I have seen that one...but also Herodotous wrote that Lydians told him how Lydia people split in two parts (a part that left Lydia gave Etruscans) during 18 years long hunger, and that one is easy to trace to Hekla 3 eruption....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC
    I wasn't aware of that line in Herodotus, and I wouldn't necessarily say it was the Hekla-3 eruption, but I agree that sounds reasonably plausible to claim.

    ok, that makes them good candidate for source of this haplogroup in north Italy... because they are related to Celtic people north of them which is the direction of the spread....
    Well, I think that there's a cummulative effect to be considered in northern Italy: after the Ligurians, the Gauls arrived in northern Italy, and even later the Germanic Langobardi/Lombards (who probably lived along the Elbe before their migration). The U-152 peak in Italy might come (in part) from all three sources. Consider that this map only shows the "end product" today, and some 3500+ years of history occured in the meantime to produce the pattern we see today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You are arguing A LOT there which is very problematic to claim, let alone to back up. Why should PIE come from people with IJ? (I'd have said R1b-M269 and R1a1a - the two are the primary candidates, in my opinion). How do you know the Hatti were predominantly I1? And the rest... Occam's razor does not agree with you.
    easy... I never said Hatti were I1... I said they were R1b and I2*/I2b ...I1 comes from I* that departed from Asia minor to Europe much earlier....

    I do not see why would R1b+R1a be more likely to originally spread PIE than I+J2....

    there are domiant R1b non-IE and dominant R1a non IE people...but there are no dominant haplogroup I non-IE people... isn't that a good clue for PIE language being originally language of haplogroup I (and J2)?

    Besides PIE was in India spread by Aryans and from what I see they were J2 people ...

    at some point of time also R1a and R1b became IE speaking and further spread IE languages...but originally I think it developed in part of people that belonged to IJ haplogroups somewhere in Persia in my opinion...

    Genetics do not work that way...
    we are here guessing... through discussion we should come up with consistent story...


    I don't know if you can compare things that way. You cannot randomly compare words from two languages without caring about their relationship (thousands of years and kilometers apart). In particular, you're ignoring sound laws there.
    I do not claim that Hittites = proto-Slavic people, as obviously those are quite different vocabularies...
    what I claim is that there is certain genetic /linguistic/cultural link....


    The Celts did not make the connection between the oak and a thunder deity, however, though they did have a thunder god (the namesake of my screen name, Taranis), as did the Germanic peoples (Thor/Donar) - and both names derive from the word "to thunder".
    Celts had in their religion central notion of world tree same as Slavs, and I think other PIE people, and I think that the tree was also for Celts oak tree..

    btw. Thor is also related to oak tree

    The Donar Oak (also Thor's Oak) was a legendary oak tree sacred to the Germanic tribe of the Chatti, ancestors of the Hessians, and an important sacred site of the pagan Germanic peoples.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor%27s_Oak

    now tell me that Germanic tribe of Chatti that celebrates Thor is not the same tribal name as Hati who celebrate Taru and who moved from Asia minor to Europe.... tell me I am mad and that is just coincidence....


    That makes no sense. You think a sound law is possible because you think that people bearing a certain Y-chromosomal Haplogroup lived on both sides of the black sea?! Look, what you're saying there makes absolutely no sense, PERIOD.
    it makes sense...those are small distances.....Black sea is much smaller than e.g. Mediteranean see....people who have same genetic origin and live around Black sea obviously are likely to share some of the vocabulary and culture as well....

    I wasn't aware of that line in Herodotus, and I wouldn't necessarily say it was the Hekla-3 eruption, but I agree that sounds reasonably plausible to claim.
    there was no other reason for exactly 18 years long hunger....and time window roughly matches estimates that genetic provided based on cattle genetics...


    Well, I think that there's a cummulative effect to be considered in northern Italy: after the Ligurians, the Gauls arrived in northern Italy, and even later the Germanic Langobardi/Lombards (who probably lived along the Elbe before their migration). The U-152 peak in Italy might come (in part) from all three sources. Consider that this map only shows the "end product" today, and some 3500+ years of history occured in the meantime to produce the pattern we see today.
    true...that makes it hard to figure out without going deeper into subbranches....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    What does mean R1b-U152? Where is it so numerous in Etruria? Why in Germany
    till into the Netherlands? The Etrurians and Dutch did not have common ancestors?
    Here is explanation.... most of Europe was settled from Asia minor just in different times... Dutch people origin largely from Batavians, and Batavians origin from Germanic Chatti who are in fact Hatti people who came to Europe from Asia minor area around 2000BC

    The Chatti (also Chatthi or Catti) were an ancient Germanic tribe whose homeland was near the upper Weser.[1] They settled in central and northern Hesse and southern Lower Saxony, along the upper reaches of the Weser River and in the valleys and mountains of the Eder, Fulda and Weser River regions, a district approximately corresponding to Hesse-Kassel, though probably somewhat more extensive. According to Tacitus,[2] among them were the Batavians, until an internal quarrel drove them out, to take up new lands at the mouth of the Rhine.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatti

    The Donar Oak (also Thor's Oak) was a legendary oak tree sacred to the Germanic tribe of the Chatti, ancestors of the Hessians, and an important sacred site of the pagan Germanic peoples.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor%27s_Oak

    Teshub (also written Teshup or Tešup; cuneiform dIM) was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian Taru
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

    Their Hittite language was a member of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European language family.[2] Natively, they referred to their land as Hatti, and to their language as Nesili (the language of Nesa). The conventional name "Hittites" is due to their initial identification with the Biblical Hittites in 19th century archaeology. Despite the use of "Hatti", the Hittites should be distinguished from the Hattians, an earlier people who inhabited the same region until the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC, and spoke a non-Indo-European language called Hattic.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    Etruscans came to Europe much later during 18 years long hunger caused by volcanic winter due to Hecla 3 volcano eruption in year 1159 BC

    1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

    The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
    Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

    Franks also origin from Asia minor... they were known there as Phrygians,,,, this I based on Fruzi being old Serbian name for Franks,and on legend of origin of Franks themselves that states their moving to Europe happened after Trojan war...

    Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks developed an origin story to connect themselves with peoples of antiquity. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Maeotis, now Sea of Azov, and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late fourth century at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Franks, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome.
    [edit]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

    The mountain's name derives from the old Serbian name for the Frankish people: Fruzi (sing. Frug; adj. Fruški). The literal translation of "Fruška Gora" would be "the Frankish Mountain". It received this name due to its function as a natural border during Frankish campaigns.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruska_gora

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    easy... I never said Hatti were I1... I said they were R1b and I2*/I2b ...I1 comes from I* that departed from Asia minor to Europe much earlier....

    I do not see why would R1b+R1a be more likely to originally spread PIE than I+J2....
    J2 has it's highest concentrations in the Near East, in particular the Fertile Crescent and Iraq. In my opinion, the Sumerians for instance were predominantly J2.

    there are domiant R1b non-IE and dominant R1a non IE people...but there are no dominant haplogroup I non-IE people... isn't that a good clue for PIE language being originally language of haplogroup I (and J2)?
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. J2 is widespread in the near East, as you may know.

    Besides PIE was in India spread by Aryans and from what I see they were J2 people ...
    The Indo-Aryans in India were probably predominantly R1a1a. It's very common in India today (interestingly, in particular amongst certain Brahmin castes), and it has been found in graves of the Andronovo Culture in Central Asia - also R1a has been found in graves of the Andronovo Culture. Descendants of them moved southwards to found the Vedic civilization of the Indus Valley.

    R1a1a has also been found in graves of the Corded Ware Culture in Europe and in graves of the Tocharians.

    R1a1a can account for four major branches of the Indo-European languages (Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranic and Tocharian), is that a coincidence? I don't think so.

    at some point of time also R1a and R1b became IE speaking and further spread IE languages...but originally I think it developed in part of people that belonged to IJ haplogroups somewhere in Persia in my opinion...
    There is absolutely no reason to assume that. The people of Persia probably were non-IE-speaking originally. In particular, the oldest attested language in that region is Elamite, a non-IE language.

    we are here guessing... through discussion we should come up with consistent story...
    Your "story" isn't very consistent at all.

    I do not claim that Hittites = proto-Slavic people, as obviously those are quite different vocabularies...
    what I claim is that there is certain genetic /linguistic/cultural link....
    Yeah, but your claims just go too far and are too far-fetched to be even remotely plausible, or stand up to closer scrutiny.

    Celts had in their religion central notion of world tree same as Slavs, and I think other PIE people, and I think that the tree was also for Celts oak tree..

    btw. Thor is also related to oak tree


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor%27s_Oak

    now tell me that Germanic tribe of Chatti that celebrates Thor is not the same tribal name as Hati who celebrate Taru and moved from Asia minor to Europe....
    Because you're ignoring the basics of linguistics, again, not to mention time, lot's of it. The Chatti, a Germanic people, are attested from 1st century AD, while the Hatti are in Anatolia, around 2000 years earlier. A connection between those two is extremely unlikely. It's almost like saying "America" and "Armorica" are related, just because they sound similar.

    it makes sense...those are small distances.....Black sea is much smaller than e.g. Mediteranean see....people who have same genetic origin and live around Black sea obviously are likely to share some of the vocabulary and culture as well....
    Back in those days, these weren't "small distances".

    there was no other reason for 18 years long hunger....and time window roughly matches estimates that genetic provided based on cattle genetics...
    That's a point. I'm a tad sceptical how the Hekla event could have provided such a long-lasting famine. Herodotus may be exaggerating (which would be nothing new). I agree the time window fits though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    J2 has it's highest concentrations in the Near East, in particular the Fertile Crescent and Iraq. In my opinion, the Sumerians for instance were predominantly J2.....I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. J2 is widespread in the near East, as you may know....The Indo-Aryans in India were probably predominantly R1a1a. It's very common in India today (interestingly, in particular amongst certain Brahmin castes), and it has been found in graves of the Andronovo Culture in Central Asia - also R1a has been found in graves of the Andronovo Culture. Descendants of them moved southwards to found the Vedic civilization of the Indus Valley.
    you see in caste society castes do not mix... they can mix with invaders who stay long time there....Brahmins of India are believed to origin from Aryans
    68% R1a1, 21% J2, 16% H1, 3.6% G2a....R1a is very present in various castes, while J2 and G2a are present only in Brahmins....

    so, R1a probably came from later Indo-Scythians... and because they were ruling the area for quite a while itR1a did largely overtake brahmin's caste YDNA as well...but still 21% of brahmin caste stayed J2. I have explained that in
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...93-Indo-Aryans

    R1a1a has also been found in graves of the Corded Ware Culture in Europe and in graves of the Tocharians.
    yes, but that is about steppe people like Scythians...
    in same steppe there were Turkic people as well and from what I see they were as well R1a...

    R1a1a can account for four major branches of the Indo-European languages (Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranic and Tocharian), is that a coincidence? I don't think so.
    it is not coincidence, but it can also say that part of R1a people have accepted IE language early in their history... so it was probably language of Scythians and Indo-Scythians... however, that doesnot necesserily implies R1a was source of the PIE...
    there is problem with R1a that it cannot explain PIE in Europe without including R1b...But R1b in Asia and Africa is largely not IE...


    There is absolutely no reason to assume that. The people of Persia probably were non-IE-speaking originally. In particular, the oldest attested language in that region is Elamite, a non-IE language.
    my guess comes from me estimating that haplogroup I origin is in Persia

    Your "story" isn't very consistent at all.
    it is extremely consistent for forum story... I cannot make a PhD thesis about history and genetics on a forum....


    Yeah, but your claims just go too far and are too far-fetched to be even remotely plausible, or stand up to closer scrutiny....
    Because you're ignoring the basics of linguistics, again, not to mention time, lot's of it. The Chatti, a Germanic people, are attested from 1st century AD, while the Hatti are in Anatolia, around 2000 years earlier. A connection between those two is extremely unlikely. It's almost like saying "America" and "Armorica" are related, just because they sound similar.
    if Armorica and America sounded more alike with clear transition from one to another, if the two areas had same principal deities, if there was atested movement from Armorica to America, and if there was no other explanation, yes I would make that proposal.... so, it is not just "it sounds similar" argument as you claim..it is much more...

    Back in those days, these weren't "small distances".
    no offence, but boats were used and horses as well....
    obviously Etruscans somewhat later sailed to several times larger distance from Lydia in Asia minor to Umbria in Italy... obviously Indo-Scytians went from north of Caucasus to India... so why would migrations around Black sea be large distance.... same genetics north and south of Black sea, relatively close distances..obviously there must be some relation in culture and perhaps language...

    That's a point. I'm a tad sceptical how the Hekla event could have provided such a long-lasting famine. Herodotus may be exaggerating (which would be nothing new). I agree the time window fits though
    well, let's hope that Yellowstone will not show us how volcanic winter looks like and how much it can last....

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    you see in caste society castes do not mix... they can mix with invaders who stay long time there....Brahmins of India are believed to origin from Aryans
    68% R1a1, 21% J2, 16% H1, 3.6% G2a....R1a is very present in various castes, while J2 and G2a are present only in Brahmins....
    The casts generally did not mix with each other, but, what about outsiders? How about the Greeks, the Arabs, the Timurids, the Mughals? A lot happened in India, a lot of ways for these to enter.

    so, R1a probably came from later Indo-Scythians... and because they were ruling the area for quite a while itR1a did largely overtake brahmin's caste YDNA as well...but still 21% of brahmin caste stayed J2. I have explained that in
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...93-Indo-Aryans
    Yes, but what language spoke the Scythians?

    yes, but that is about steppe people like Scythians...
    in same steppe there were Turkic people as well and from what I see they were as well R1a...
    Most of Central Asia in Antiquity spoke Scythian languages, which are part of the Indo-Iranic branch. Large parts of Central Asia actually spoke Indo-European right up to the Turkic migrations.

    it is not coincidence, but it can also say that part of R1a people have accepted IE language early in their history... so it was probably language of Scythians and Indo-Scythians... however, that doesnot necesserily implies R1a was source of the PIE...
    there is problem with R1a that it cannot explain PIE in Europe without including R1b...But R1b in Asia and Africa is largely not IE...
    Geez, you are hepelessly oversimplifying things there. European R1b is almost exclusively of the subclade R1b-M269, wheras in Asia you have R1b-M73, and in Africa you have R1b-V88. Given the approximate age of these various R1b subclades, it's not a surprise only R1b-M269 is associated with the Indo-Europeans, because the split of these clades predates the Indo-European migrations by many millennia.

    my guess comes from me estimating that haplogroup I origin is in Persia
    Haplogroup I is probably of Paleolithic origin, and originates in Europe. If you look at the subclades of I, and it's approximate ages, this should be obvious.

    it is extremely consistent for forum story... I cannot make a PhD thesis about history and genetics on a forum....
    It's a "story", but not one that's consistent with facts.

    if Armorica and America sounded more alike with clear transition from one to another, if the two areas had same principal deities, if there was atested movement from Armorica to America, and if there was no other explanation, yes I would make that proposal.... so, it is not just "it sounds similar" argument as you claim..it is much more...


    no offence, but boats were used and horses as well....
    obviously Etruscans somewhat later sailed to several times larger distance from Lydia in Asia minor to Umbria in Italy... obviously Indo-Scytians went from north of Caucasus to India... so why would migrations around Black sea be large distance.... same genetics north and south of Black sea, relatively close distances..obviously there must be some relation in culture and perhaps language...
    well, let's hope that Yellowstone will not show us how volcanic winter looks like and how much it can last....
    Hekla-3 was level 5 of the volcanic explosity index, which is the same scale of Mount St. Helens or Vesuvius, neither caused such a catastophic event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The casts generally did not mix with each other, but, what about outsiders? How about the Greeks, the Arabs, the Timurids, the Mughals? A lot happened in India, a lot of ways for these to enter.
    actually, I would like more that R1a were Indo-Aryans... according to Klyosov Euroasian R1a largely origins from ancient old cluster that is present in Serbs...
    this would in fact mean that both Scythians and Aryans origin from ancestors of Serbs

    but I do not think Aryans were R1a... simply because R1a is present in all castes... while J2 is restricted to Brahmins...

    Yes, but what language spoke the Scythians?
    as I said it was probably IE..
    but that doesnot prove that PIE originally was language of R1a people...


    Most of Central Asia in Antiquity spoke Scythian languages, which are part of the Indo-Iranic branch. Large parts of Central Asia actually spoke Indo-European right up to the Turkic migrations.
    yes... I agree with that...

    Geez, you are hepelessly oversimplifying things there. European R1b is almost exclusively of the subclade R1b-M269, wheras in Asia you have R1b-M73, and in Africa you have R1b-V88. Given the approximate age of these various R1b subclades, it's not a surprise only R1b-M269 is associated with the Indo-Europeans, because the split of these clades predates the Indo-European migrations by many millennia.
    no, you do not take in consideration that M269 was already in west Europe in times when PIE people are suggested to enter Europe in currently accepted theories about spread of PIE... so, PIE could have been spread by R1a...but how did it come to southwest Europe where R1a didnot spread? branches of haplogroup I explain it much better...

    Haplogroup I is probably of Paleolithic origin, and originates in Europe. If you look at the subclades of I, and it's approximate ages, this should be obvious.
    sure, and that is why I*, I1* and I2* we find in middle east and Anatolia....and not in Europe


    It's a "story", but not one that's consistent with facts.
    actually, this holds more for claims you make here..like that haplogroup I originated in Europe... or that R1a were Aryans, or that R1b-M269 was spreading PIE language...
    those are stories... only one of those that is likely is that Aryans were R1a but it is hard to say whether and how much truth is there...
    should I laugh now?

    Hekla-3 was level 5 of the volcanic explosity index, which is the same scale of Mount St. Helens or Vesuvius, neither caused such a catastophic event.
    In case you didnot notice scale is logarithmic...
    everything between 1 and 10km3 is class 5 event, between 10 and 100km3 is class 6 event...

    if mt.Saint Hellena explosion released 1km3 of volcanic rocks and Hekla3 estimated (how correct can be estimation after so much time?) 7.3 km3, they may be in same class, but Hekla3 was according to estimation 7.3 times larger event....and may have caused much more serious consequences... it is questionable how much ashes in the sky is needed to block sun rays...

    well, look at what is so far Fukushima release of radiation and compare it with Chernobyl... they are in same class, but so far the releases of radiation are quite different and effects for people are quite different.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    actually, I would like more that R1a were Indo-Aryans... according to Klyosov Euroasian R1a largely origins from ancient old cluster that is present in Serbs...
    this would in fact mean that both Scythians and Aryans origin from ancestors of Serbs
    but I do not think Aryans were R1a... simply because R1a is present in all castes... while J2 is restricted to Brahmins...
    Actually, J2 is more common in the south of India, which is more descended from the Dravidian rather than the Indo-Aryans.

    as I said it was probably IE..
    but that doesnot prove that PIE originally was language of R1a people...
    We obviously do not know. But given how there's a correlation between four major branches of the Indo-European languages (Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranic and Tocharian), it makes things very likely that R1a was carried by the Indo-European migrations. I do not think that they were the only speakers of Indo-European languages because this does not account for three other major branches of Indo-European languages: Italo-Celtic, Greek and Anatolian - and in my opinion R1b-M269 is the best candidate for this.

    no, you do not take in consideration that M269 was already in west Europe in times when PIE people are suggested to enter Europe in currently accepted theories about spread of PIE... so, PIE could have been spread by R1a...but how did it come to southwest Europe where R1a didnot spread? branches of haplogroup I explain it much better...
    There is absolutely no evidence that M269 was already inside Europe by the time PIE people are suggested to have entered Europe, as you claim. The oldest occurence of R1b in Europe thus far is from the Urnfield Culture (circa 1000 BC).

    The linear pottery culture of the Neolithic for instance was shown to be G2a3: no R1b or R1a - both Haplogroups must have entered later.

    In my opinion, R1b arrived in Europe with the Beaker-Bell Culture (it's the most likely candidate, in my opinion).

    sure, and that is why I*, I1* and I2* we find in middle east and Anatolia....and not in Europe
    Links?

    actually, this holds more for claims you make here..like that haplogroup I originated in Europe... or that R1a were Aryans, or that R1b-M269 was spreading PIE language...
    those are stories... only one of those that is likely is that Aryans were R1a but it is hard to say whether and how much truth is there...
    should I laugh now?
    Actually there is a lot of evidence backing this up. The age of the various subclades of Haplogroup I fits very well with the last glacial maximum. The only exception is Haplogroup I1, which appears to be the result of an extreme bottleneck: the last common ancestor of I1 correlates quite well with the arrival of the Battle Axe culture in Scandinavia - which was in itself an offshot of the Corded Ware Culture in Central Europe, which is known from ancient DNA samples to be R1a. Despite the last common ancestor I1 being so recent, the last common ancestor of I1 and I2 was near the last glacial maximum - this suggests that there was a massive population bottleneck in Scandinavia, which is also known from mitochondrial DNA samples:

    Ancient DNA Reveals Lack of Continuity between Neolithic Hunter-Gatherers and Contemporary Scandinavians

    In case you didnot notice scale is logarithmic...
    everything between 1 and 10km3 is class 5 event, between 10 and 100km3 is class 6 event...

    if mt.Saint Hellena explosion released 1km3 of volcanic rocks and Hekla3 estimated (how correct can be estimation after so much time?) 7.3 km3, they may be in same class, but Hekla3 was according to estimation 7.3 times larger event....and may have caused much more serious consequences... it is questionable how much ashes in the sky is needed to block sun rays...

    well, look at what is so far Fukushima release of radiation and compare it with Chernobyl... they are in same class, but so far the releases of radiation are quite different and effects for people are quite different.....
    It is logarithmic, but apparently you didn't notice that certain other eruptions were of larger scales: Pinatubo (1991), Krakatoa (1883) were both level 6, and the Tambora (1815) was level 7, all of these were larger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, J2 is more common in the south of India, which is more descended from the Dravidian rather than the Indo-Aryans.
    links?
    what about this one:

    A principal-components plot of R1a1-M17 Y-microsatellite data (fig. 6) shows several interesting features: (a) one tight population cluster comprising southern Pakistan, Turkey, Greece, Oman, and West Europe; (b) one loose cluster comprising all the Indian tribal and caste populations, with the tribal populations occupying an edge of this cluster; and (c) Central Asia and Turkey occupy intermediate positions. The divergence time between the two clusters was 8–12 KYA. The pattern of clustering does not support the model that the primary source of the R1a1-M17 chromosomes in India was Central Asia or the Indus Valley via Indo-European speakers. Further, the relative position of the Indian tribals (fig. 6), the high microsatellite variance among them (table 12), the estimated age (14 KYA) of microsatellite variation within R1a1 (table 11), and the variance peak in western Eurasia (fig. 4) are entirely inconsistent with a model of recent gene flow from castes to tribes and a large genetic impact of the Indo-Europeans on the autochthonous gene pool of India. Instead, our overall inference is that an early Holocene expansion in northwestern India (including the Indus Valley) contributed R1a1-M17 chromosomes both to the Central Asian and South Asian tribes prior to the arrival of the Indo-Europeans. The results of our more comprehensive study of Y-chromosome diversity are in agreement with the caveat of Quintana-Murci et al. (2001, p. 541), that “more complex explanations are possible,” rather than their simplistic conclusion that HGs J and R1a1 reflect demic expansions of southwestern Asian Dravidian-speaking farmers and Central Asian Indo-European–speaking pastorialists.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez

    Indian R1a1 cluster stretches through all castes and is clearly separated from R1a cluster of Europe, central Asia, Oman and Pakistan cluster...Anatolia cluster is in between...

    now 8-12 KY before present is too far in past for Aryans...

    this is not suggesting what I thought (that R1a1 comes from Indo-Scythians) but is also not in agreement that it comes from Indo-Aryans as it has entered all castes and much before Indo-Aryans...

    besides if you followed my link where I talked of Indo-Aryans, you would see that my guess about J2 comes from archeological sites of Aryans matching well J2 spread...




    We obviously do not know. But given how there's a correlation between four major branches of the Indo-European languages (Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranic and Tocharian), it makes things very likely that R1a was carried by the Indo-European migrations. I do not think that they were the only speakers of Indo-European languages because this does not account for three other major branches of Indo-European languages: Italo-Celtic, Greek and Anatolian - and in my opinion R1b-M269 is the best candidate for this.
    Actually, there is enough R1a in Greece, Italy and Anatolia for language transfer.... so R1b is not needed for explanation....




    There is absolutely no evidence that M269 was already inside Europe by the time PIE people are suggested to have entered Europe, as you claim. The oldest occurence of R1b in Europe thus far is from the Urnfield Culture (circa 1000 BC).

    The linear pottery culture of the Neolithic for instance was shown to be G2a3: no R1b or R1a - both Haplogroups must have entered later.
    ancient samples are taken in only few places and only very small number of samples...
    if you sample now few graves in Finland and Sardinia you might conclude there is only N and I2a1 people in Europe...

    In my opinion, R1b arrived in Europe with the Beaker-Bell Culture (it's the most likely candidate, in my opinion).
    why don't you base your opinion on papers that estimate time of spread of R1b?
    http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1000285



    after studying figure B we can expect that R1b1b2 entered Europe from Asia minor around 7500 - 8000 before present or 5500-6000BC which is much before estimated entrance of PIE speakers...

    Links?
    for example
    "Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with nearby regions" - Khaled K Abu-Amero1 , Ali Hellani2 , Ana M González3 , Jose M Larruga3 , Vicente M Cabrera3 and Peter A Underhill4
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/59

    look for I*, I1* and I2* in this table
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/59/table/T1

    there is I* in Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Anatolia and Pakistan...
    not found in Iran according to this but I have seen other results for Iran as well... If there is I* in Pakistan, Persia should show some as well...

    I1* and I2a* and I2b* are found in Anatolia which is basis for my assumption that haplgroup I was based in Anatolia for long time and spread to Europe in several waves - I1 as very early wave, I2b somewhat later, and I2a in the end...


    Actually there is a lot of evidence backing this up. The age of the various subclades of Haplogroup I fits very well with the last glacial maximum. The only exception is Haplogroup I1, which appears to be the result of an extreme bottleneck: the last common ancestor of I1 correlates quite well with the arrival of the Battle Axe culture in Scandinavia - which was in itself an offshot of the Corded Ware Culture in Central Europe, which is known from ancient DNA samples to be R1a. Despite the last common ancestor I1 being so recent, the last common ancestor of I1 and I2 was near the last glacial maximum - this suggests that there was a massive population bottleneck in Scandinavia, which is also known from mitochondrial DNA samples:

    Ancient DNA Reveals Lack of Continuity between Neolithic Hunter-Gatherers and Contemporary Scandinavians
    so? that still doesnot mean that haplogroup I has originated in Europe as it obviously did not considering locations of I*, I1* and I2* in Anatolia and middle east...

    and based on what you claim above, the I1 wave might have entered Europe as long ago as immediately after ice age.... as split between I1 and I2 obviously happened in Anatolia, where we find I1* and I2a* and I2b*, and as according to you time of split corresponds to last ice age...
    I1 might have been decimated by spread of Battle Axe (R1a?), but that is in domain of guessing.... there could have been other reasons for being in that time close to extinction, e.g. some climate worsening.. hunger often moves peoples.... so Battle Axe expansion could have been also due to some sudden climate worsening...

    anyway, can you quote the key sentences in paper that you link to that make basis for conclusions you made...
    because already the title of the paper says something completely different - it says there is no continuity of today Scandinavians with neolithic inhabitants, while your story suggest I1 was there all along and it suffered from mean R1a battle axe invaders...

    also please give links for estimations you give about earliest common ancestor of I1, and of earliest common ancestor for I1 and I2...

    actually, considering lack of continuity between neolithic Scandinavians and modern ones....
    I1 could have easily been brought to its current place by Corded ware/Battle axe, together with R1a...
    based on few samples you conclude Battle Axe was R1a1 but we do not know if it also had abundance of I1...

    correlation between battle axe and I1 spread seems quite good...



    It is logarithmic, but apparently you didn't notice that certain other eruptions were of larger scales: Pinatubo (1991), Krakatoa (1883) were both level 6, and the Tambora (1815) was level 7, all of these were larger.
    ok, good point...
    but tell me how do you estimate amount of volcanic rocks of eruption of volcano 3200 years ago... estimation can easily be off tens of times....

    it even does not have to be volcanic winter... maybe giant meteorite did fall somewhere and vulcano eruption was one consequence and 18 year old winter was other....

    what we know is that there was 18 year long hunger recorded in time of the eruption of the volcano, and 18 year long winter in story of departure of Lydians to Umbria...
    unlikelihood of 18 year old winter repeating several times in short time interval allows us to connect those two events with high probability....
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 17-04-11 at 12:33. Reason: added hint about possible Corded ware - I1 correlation

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    I'm somewhat slow in replying to you because your posts are too long and too awkward to read, and also I have other businesses to do.

    But, in a nutshell, consider this however:
    - the dates that the paper "A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages" gives are upper margins. Given the absence of R1b in any older samples (Corded Ware and Linear Pottery Culture), it seems very probably it was just not there. Also, the distribution of Haplogroup G in Europe reasonably matches the spread of agriculture.

    Ancient DNA samples are statistically more representative of ancient populations than you think, primarily because when taking samples from ancient population we are unlikely to find rare Haplogroups. It therefore is highly probable that if R1b is absent from samples from 5000 BC and 2600 BC, that it was indeed either absent from these populations or rare. Everything suggests a massive founder effect of R1b in Western Europe, especially if you consider the relatively similar age for the various major R1b-M269 subclades. This pattern is non-consistent with the Neolithic farmers, but consistent with the rapid spread of the Beaker-Bell Culture.

    Regarding J2, you woefully ignore a significant number of ancient languages, in the Near-East, ALL of which are non-Indo-European:
    - Hattian language
    - Hurrian language
    - Urartian language
    - Sumerian language
    - Elamite language

    (note that Hurrian and Urartian are thought to be part of the same language family) All of them are non-Indo-European, all of them were agglutinative languages (verymuch unlike Indo-European), and all of them are found in the general context of J2. It's far, far more likely that the people who predominantly were speakers of non-Indo-European languages than that they were of Indo-European languages.

    I should also add the presence of the Eteocretan language (the as-of-yet-undeciphered language of Linear A) in Greece.

    Regarding the Elamite language, it has also been proposed that the Dravidian language family is related with the Elamite language (the Elamo-Dravidian hypothesis). Note that the Dravidian languages are also agglutinative.

    Regarding the "18 year long winter", I find it funny how you ride on claims of Herodotus like that. The guy also wrote of giant ants living in Asia, and made a few other impossible claims. I mean, seriously, a meterorite impact? That's just... funny imagination.
    Last edited by Taranis; 17-04-11 at 16:58.

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