R1b-U152 map

Here is other interesting map with ice age climatic zones. It shows that Middle East was even dryer than today, with only deserts and semi deserts. No wonder that civilizations started after Ice Age when Middle East clime changed to more moist (7,000 BP it was even wetter there then now) and agriculture could flourish.
Judging by this map I clads were locked in south and central Europe across the continent.


http://mapscroll.blogspot.com/2009/02/ice-age-climate-map.html
 
You keep making this claim but I really don't think it holds up. ISOGG says that I* is unobserved, and I believe that the links that you provide actually mean that all that was tested in terms of SNP's in those populations were enough to determine that they fall within I. The presence of I1* in Anatolia is uninteresting because I1* has a very young MRCA, so it doesn't indicate ancientness in the region. The I2* in Anatolia is exclusively I2*-B, which is also very young, even younger than I1*. See Nordtvedt and the I2* Project. Meanwhile, I2*-B's brother clusters, I2*-A, I2*-C, and I2*-ADR (soon to be I2c) don't stretch any farther east than Central Europe.

Small numbers of young, distantly related subclades outside of Europe indicate to me small numbers of haplogroup I people emigrating out of Europe at different times. But an obvious tree of subclades within Europe, all present in Europe, indicate to me ancientness of haplogroup I within Europe.

actually, you might have good point there....
in Asia testing they probably didnot care about subtype of found haplogroup I so they put it in I*...

so, I guess you are probably right there.....
 
It's not whatever because I2a clad is estimated to be 8 to 5 thousand years old, and the ice was gone 10,000 BP, not mentioning glacial maximum 18,000BP. Even if estimates are faulty and I2a is older then check this map. It shows Maximum Ice reach and climatic zones. It actually shows that during ice age Europe was cut off from Middle East by desert in Anatolia. Looks like there were better conditions in south of Europe to survive than in Anatolia, unlike you were proposing.
I know life sucked back then in Europe, but regardless, the I had lots of room to roam and hunt. It's a decent refuge, 3 quarters of Europe.
eur%2822-.gif

I was looking the tree given on Eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml) and there branching between I2a1 and I2a2 looked like around 10000 ybp, also I read about ice age till 10000 ybp somewhere on wikipedia...

anyway, it's not like haplogroups branching arises imediately when there is long term separation of groups... it's a long lasting process... besides branching time are very rough estimates...

point is that I2a1 and I2a2 cover complimentary parts of Europe and that different ice age refuges (one of them being Iberia and other being Balkan/Black sea/Anatolia) explain very well that peculiar separation....


btw. regarding your claim that desert in anatolia did cut-off Europe from middle east, actually the map that you posted shows clear non-desert area that connects Europe with middle east....

interestingly non-desert area in south of Anatolia corresponds to R1a and E-V13 spreads, while the one on north correlates with R1b...
desert area correlates with G, which means G spread to Anatolia later.... perhaps from Tundra in Caucasus..
 
I can see that I clads belong and existed long time in Europe. I can see that most likely R1a dominated and existed for a long time in east europe north of black and caspaian see and in central asia. There is a lot of record of it from graves dated 5000BP, and it was already spread all over two continents.
But I have to admit that I have a hard time to pinpoint breading grounds of R1b. It suddenly popped up 4 000 years ago. Where were they hiding, if the split between R1a and R1b happened over 10 thousand years ago?
Could it be possible that R1b descended from R1a about 4-5 K ago?
 
how yes no, is it possible you have been mixing up information over mitochondrial DNA with y-chromosomal DNA?
 
But I have to admit that I have a hard time to pinpoint breading grounds of R1b. It suddenly popped up 4 000 years ago. Where were they hiding, if the split between R1a and R1b happened over 10 thousand years ago?
Could it be possible that R1b descended from R1a about 4-5 K ago?
lol, of course not...
R1b1b2 came to Europe via Asia minor... my guess is that during ice age it was probably in north part of Anatolia and around Caucasus... later it was for long while in west most Anatolia...from there it went to Thrace, then to Italy, Spain...it has arrived in Germany in times when linear pottery culture ended...

fetchObject.action


how yes no, is it possible you have been mixing up information over mitochondrial DNA with y-chromosomal DNA?

no, but am curious what exactly in my posts gave you that idea...
from everything I said so far in discussion with you, I can only admit that I am probably wrong regarding haplogroup I and that Sparkey is right about meaning of I* , I1* and I2* found in Asia being about researches not bothering to establish exact branches... everything else I claimed in discussion with you still holds in my viewpoint...

you see, genetic timeline is quite diffeent from linguistic one... so it is quite possible that ethnic groups of different dominant haplogroups speak same language and ethnic groups of same dominant haplogroups speak different language... thus J2 people can be in same time spreading PIE as Aryans in India and speak whatever is language of your preference for them in middle east... bottom line we can speak of PIE as likely existing for example in times of 3500 BC -5000 BC, while J split into branches that gave J1 and J2 in times around 30000 ybp (see http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml)...those times are different order of magnitude...
 
In regard for a connection with Celtic-speaking peoples, while it's very likely that Hallstatt and La-Tene existed inside a mostly Celtic-speaking context, the same cannot be said about Urnfield, especially because considerable time passed in the meantime and because a large chunk of the Urnfield areas are later known to be inhabited by non-Celtic-speaking peoples (in particular the Etruscans in Italy, Germanic people in northern Germany, and the Iberians in Catalonia). Consider that a common archaeological culture doesn't automatically imply linguistic homogenity.

.



That position appears to be quite of a push of the envelope. Of course we do not have the advantage of walking over to the areas people by Urnfielders and listening in on their conversations, but to base one's doubt on the facts that much time has passed and that today a large portion of the area has become German or Germanic seems more than overly rigid.
Looking at the whole picture, from what people can dig up, to contemporary historical accounts, etc. I would have a really hard time inferring much other than that the areas in question were highly likely to have peopled by those who spoke some type of Celtic.
We need to keep in mind the most likely periods when Germanic tribes began to move into areas definitely or probably held by Celts.
These areas in all probability did not have Slavic or Proto-Slavic peoples, especially since their expansion is even farther off.
 
That position appears to be quite of a push of the envelope. Of course we do not have the advantage of walking over to the areas people by Urnfielders and listening in on their conversations, but to base one's doubt on the facts that much time has passed and that today a large portion of the area has become German or Germanic seems more than overly rigid.
Looking at the whole picture, from what people can dig up, to contemporary historical accounts, etc. I would have a really hard time inferring much other than that the areas in question were highly likely to have peopled by those who spoke some type of Celtic.
We need to keep in mind the most likely periods when Germanic tribes began to move into areas definitely or probably held by Celts.
These areas in all probability did not have Slavic or Proto-Slavic peoples, especially since their expansion is even farther off.

Let me say this, if we go by onomastic evidence, the Germanic lands as far north as the Main river and as far north and east as Silesia still contain Celtic town names in the 2nd century AD. This suggests a strong Germanic substratum. We also know from linguistic evidence inside the Germanic languages (I should say "Common Germanic", since it's found in all branches of Germanic - including the extinct East Germanic) evidence of early language contact with Celtic languages (borrowings of words which obey to certain Germanic sound laws), most notably the Germanic words for "iron". To sum things up, the case that Hallstatt and La-Tene were carried by Celtic-speaking (specifically Gaulish, or languages related to Gaulish, in my opinion) is very strong. For Urnfield, the situation is less clear-cut, even if we consider that Hallstatt is an outgrowth of Urnfield.

The problem is that archaeological continuity doesn't necessarily speak for linguistic continuity. In particular, Urnfields extend into the Iberian penninsula in the area of Catalonia, and we also know that the later Iberians who inhabit Catalonia practiced cremation. I'm not going to argue that Urnfield was spread by Iberian-speaking peoples (that would be insane to argue, given how Iberian names are rather restricted), but it clearly shows that Urnfield at it's maximum extend probably wasn't linguistically homogenous. Unless you argue that Catalonia was formerly Celtic speaking by the times of Antiquity, and the Iberians arrived later from the south (which might be plausible, but I don't know of it holds up). Interestingly however, the spread of R1b-U152 on the Iberian penninsula appears to coincide with the maximum expansion of the Urnfields.

What has to be added though is this:
- The Golasecca Culture in the Alps, which is associated with Lepontic (the oldest, unambigously Celtic language, written in a variety of the Etruscan alphabet) is in itself an offshot of Urnfield.

- No matter what, the Urnfield Culture does not explain the dense presence of Celtic-speaking peoples in the West of the Iberian penninsula or in Ireland (since both areas are well outside of Urnfield range). Even if Urnfield was predominantly inside a Celtic-speaking context, the Celtic languages weren't confined to Urnfield. This is a point where I must give the Atlantic School credit. Though i think it is insane to claim that the Celtic languages originated inside the Atlantic Façade.
 
Let me say this, if we go by onomastic evidence, the Germanic lands as far north as the Main river and as far north and east as Silesia still contain Celtic town names in the 2nd century AD. This suggests a strong Germanic substratum. We also know from linguistic evidence inside the Germanic languages (I should say "Common Germanic", since it's found in all branches of Germanic - including the extinct East Germanic) evidence of early language contact with Celtic languages (borrowings of words which obey to certain Germanic sound laws), most notably the Germanic words for "iron". To sum things up, the case that Hallstatt and La-Tene were carried by Celtic-speaking (specifically Gaulish, or languages related to Gaulish, in my opinion) is very strong. For Urnfield, the situation is less clear-cut, even if we consider that Hallstatt is an outgrowth of Urnfield.

The problem is that archaeological continuity doesn't necessarily speak for linguistic continuity. In particular, Urnfields extend into the Iberian penninsula in the area of Catalonia, and we also know that the later Iberians who inhabit Catalonia practiced cremation. I'm not going to argue that Urnfield was spread by Iberian-speaking peoples (that would be insane to argue, given how Iberian names are rather restricted), but it clearly shows that Urnfield at it's maximum extend probably wasn't linguistically homogenous. Unless you argue that Catalonia was formerly Celtic speaking by the times of Antiquity, and the Iberians arrived later from the south (which might be plausible, but I don't know of it holds up). Interestingly however, the spread of R1b-U152 on the Iberian penninsula appears to coincide with the maximum expansion of the Urnfields.

What has to be added though is this:
- The Golasecca Culture in the Alps, which is associated with Lepontic (the oldest, unambigously Celtic language, written in a variety of the Etruscan alphabet) is in itself an offshot of Urnfield.

- No matter what, the Urnfield Culture does not explain the dense presence of Celtic-speaking peoples in the West of the Iberian penninsula or in Ireland (since both areas are well outside of Urnfield range). Even if Urnfield was predominantly inside a Celtic-speaking context, the Celtic languages weren't confined to Urnfield. This is a point where I must give the Atlantic School credit. Though i think it is insane to claim that the Celtic languages originated inside the Atlantic Façade.

I absolutely agree that we can't use Urnfield settlement as a measuring stick for all who spoke Celtic languages.
I would also fairly admit that archaeological evidence of Urnfielders or any other group is not an automatic answer to what language was spoken by a group.
If I were to mention a particular group that should not definitely be held to be Celtic-speaking, I would cite the Bell-Beakers, although I personally have been inclined to lean towards the position that they did.
The Urnfield case in Iberia is interesting as moves into that area on the Eastern side early in the 7th century BCE but by the middle of the 6th, it has moved to the West alongside their (possible) forerunners on the west coast. By this point the native Iberians have regained control of the east and the Kingdom of Tartessus is still holding a line against the inroads of Carthage.

To get back to my main point, by the middle of the 6th century, the Germans appear to still be restricted to the upper half (possibly a little further south) of the Elbe-Oder region and the Halstatt Celts are abutted against the Slavs as far east as the (proto?) Dacians. (Before the Dacian kingdom of course)
It could be argued that the Halstatt Celts quickly moved north and east to occupy this area at the expense of what Germans may have been there, but the Halstatt and the earlier (early 7th century) Urnfield line just look too close to each other to be coincidence. In fact, the Urnfield line in that area looks to be roughly the same for over four hundred years before the Halstatt culture moves in. Halstatt is fully in place among all of the Urnfield regions and other non-Urnfield Celtic speaking areas by the middle of the 6th century. The adoption of Halstatt culture by Celtic speakers seems to occur relatively in the blink of an eye. Even by the middle of the 2nd century BCE, the Germans have not extended much past the limit mentioned above, but even where they did, the movements are more westward to the Rhine than southward. The region by the Main river looks to me to be settled by southward Germanic movements closer to the middle of the 1st century BCE. Your note about the Germanic word for "iron” would make sense as their knowledge of the metal would likely have come from direct contact with Halstsatts. I would add, though, that I am surprised that a Hasltatt-type flowering does not seem to occur among the Germanics at this time since they shared a common border and must have had considerable contact with their southern neighbors.
I would never discount place-names as a valuable tool. The nadir of the Celts as a power in this region coincides with the growth and movements of the Germanic peoples. Many would have remained and got absorbed. Others could also have followed the pattern of so many others that experienced the push of a more warlike group. Like the Helvetti, they either fled or tried (in the case of the Helvetti) to flee.
 
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For the record. I have two apologies:
Firstly I have no digital map to illustrate wrote I wrote.
Also, what I wrote has nothing to do with the thread.

The U152 hotspot in Etruria and northern Corsica is confusing me beyond measure. I can't find any explanation!
 
For the record. I have two apologies:
Firstly I have no digital map to illustrate wrote I wrote.
Also, what I wrote has nothing to do with the thread.

The U152 hotspot in Etruria and northern Corsica is confusing me beyond measure. I can't find any explanation!
Confusing ? The island of Corisca was heavily colonised by Genoese peole, which are themselves a hotspot of U152
 
Confusing ? The island of Corisca was heavily colonised by Genoese peole, which are themselves a hotspot of U152


Hey, relax man.

I am confused from the following position: Trying to make sense of what the marker itself tells us concerning its association with a particular group, if any. In other words, I am trying to figure out what the presence of that genetic marker may tell us. I know that people occasionally travel by boat and settle on islands.
I am open to all sorts of suggestions, especially since I am still a new guy on the genetic side.
Since you mentioned the Genoese, I would still have to ask what you conclude by that. Are you looking at Etruscans, Ligurians, or another group?
 
Regulus, I must apologize as well:

I said "Let me say this, if we go by onomastic evidence, the Germanic lands as far north as the Main river and as far north and east as Silesia still contain Celtic town names in the 2nd century AD. This suggests a strong Germanic substratum."

...but what I actually meant was "This suggests a strong Celtic substratum."

About the Germanic-Celtic interaction, the Boii, Helveti and Volcae all clearly lived originally north of the Danube and migrated into other areas (Gaul, northern Italy and the Balkans). Strabo and Ptolemy talk of "deserts" (that is, deserted areas) of the Boii and Helvetii, respectively, which roughly correspond with the areas of Bohemia-Bavaria and Swabia, respectively. In fact, the word "Bohemia" -"Boiohaemum" ("Boii-Home") shows how the area was originally Celtic.

The Germanicization of the area between the Main and the Danube probably only happen from the 2nd century BC on, and was probably exacerbated (if not triggered) by the Roman conquest of Gaul, since it lead to a disruption of the Celtic trade routes. In any case, what remained of Celtic-speaking peoples north of the Danube was quickly absorbed subsquently. However, that doesn't change the fact that as late as the 2nd century AD, we still see plenty of evidently Celtic town names in formerly Celtic-speaking areas north of the Danube.

Regarding Beaker-Bell, in my opinion it was clearly non-Celtic, in particular because it covers many areas that are later inhabited by non-Celtic people like Lusitanians, Ligurians, Italics and Germanics. On the flip side, I feel you can make a fairly strong case that Beaker-Bell was already probably Indo-European speaking. OTOH, there's also a lot of non-IE peoples (Basques-Aquitanians, Iberians, Tartessians) in these areas. So, it's very problematic.

Hey, relax man.

I am confused from the following position: Trying to make sense of what the marker itself tells us concerning its association with a particular group, if any. In other words, I am trying to figure out what the presence of that genetic marker may tell us. I know that people occasionally travel by boat and settle on islands.
I am open to all sorts of suggestions, especially since I am still a new guy on the genetic side.
Since you mentioned the Genoese, I would still have to ask what you conclude by that. Are you looking at Etruscans, Ligurians, or another group?

The problem is that this glosses so many centuries, and we only see the combined effect of all history occuring in the distribution pattern today, which makes things kind of difficult.
 
Regulus, I must apologize as well:

I said "Let me say this, if we go by onomastic evidence, the Germanic lands as far north as the Main river and as far north and east as Silesia still contain Celtic town names in the 2nd century AD. This suggests a strong Germanic substratum."

...but what I actually meant was "This suggests a strong Celtic substratum."

About the Germanic-Celtic interaction, the Boii, Helveti and Volcae all clearly lived originally north of the Danube and migrated into other areas (Gaul, northern Italy and the Balkans). Strabo and Ptolemy talk of "deserts" (that is, deserted areas) of the Boii and Helvetii, respectively, which roughly correspond with the areas of Bohemia-Bavaria and Swabia, respectively. In fact, the word "Bohemia" -"Boiohaemum" ("Boii-Home") shows how the area was originally Celtic.

The Germanicization of the area between the Main and the Danube probably only happen from the 2nd century BC on, and was probably exacerbated (if not triggered) by the Roman conquest of Gaul, since it lead to a disruption of the Celtic trade routes. In any case, what remained of Celtic-speaking peoples north of the Danube was quickly absorbed subsquently. However, that doesn't change the fact that as late as the 2nd century AD, we still see plenty of evidently Celtic town names in formerly Celtic-speaking areas north of the Danube.

Regarding Beaker-Bell, in my opinion it was clearly non-Celtic, in particular because it covers many areas that are later inhabited by non-Celtic people like Lusitanians, Ligurians, Italics and Germanics. On the flip side, I feel you can make a fairly strong case that Beaker-Bell was already probably Indo-European speaking. OTOH, there's also a lot of non-IE peoples (Basques-Aquitanians, Iberians, Tartessians) in these areas. So, it's very problematic.



The problem is that this glosses so many centuries, and we only see the combined effect of all history occuring in the distribution pattern today, which makes things kind of difficult.

Ok, I probably should have assumed that 'Germanic" was not what you wanted to write. My fault too. In addition to place-name, such as that of Bohemia, an interesting note would be the application of the term "Germani" by early writers in applying to Celts of that area. Some of the tribes, such as those of modern day Germany and the Belgae, appear to have insistent to use this term to describe themselves as 'the real Celts' using the meaning from our word 'Germane'. In time the name gets applied to those we know to be Germanics who settled in the area. It is sort of a reverse of the word 'Scots" being brought over to Scotland from Ireland and dropped at its point of origin.

The possibility of the earlier movement of a non-Celtic IE is intriguing. Clearly we all are still grappling with finding an explanation for the existence of Goidelic, Brythonic, Gallecian, etc. that satisfies all of us. The tongues are so very close to each other and to Gaulish.

On my short retort about U152- I was not actually looking for an explanation at that moment. I was responding to a previous post in which I got sort of undeservedly beat up.
 
I'm not quite sure what to make of the U-152 map. For one thing, it's a work in progress as more samples come in; for another, an alternative P-312 map is being put together based on information from the 1000 genomes data. That might change things, so I am waiting to see what happens.

Just in general, there's lots of confusion about the Ligures. In the last century, the opinion was that they were a people related to the Iberians, and that their area of dominance was much larger than it is now, going from the Ebro to the Arno as they say, and way into France. (I guess a sort of substratum that might correlate to what is called "South European" on an admixture analysis).

Then, the judgment seemed to be that they they were an early proto-celtic-italic population. (Well, probably a mix, if this group mingled with the prior inhabitants.)Their language has been called that as well. Then, there was definte Gaullish influence in the early centuries B.C., although whether there were large groups moving in or not is open to question.

What's undeniable, as someone said, is that Liguria, Piemonte, Emilia, and south along the western coast into Tuscany (and Corsica), is a hotspot of U-152. There's some evidence it may be the oldest of the P-312 group, but L-21 developed shortly thereafter. If the two developed in the Alps region as some like to propose, why is there virtually no L-21 in Italy at all? Even if it mostly traveled north west, wouldn't some of it have come back with the Gauls if it was part of the "Celtic" world?

I don''t know the answer. Like I said, I'll wait for the new tree, and for good old Oetzi.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liguri
There's a Wiki article on the Ligures and the Ligurian language in English, but it's much less comprehensive.
 
Angela, first off, I agree that the distribution of R1b-U152 is very suggestive of a connection with the Ligurians.

Regarding the Ligurian language, I think the notion that they were non-Indo-Europeans primarily comes from statements by Avienus, who places the Ligurians in Iberia. From that, some people (particularly, early on in the 19th century) have suggested that the Ligurians and the Iberians were connected. However, the Iberian language is known to have been non-Indo-European, whereas the Ligurian language (from what little is known) was clearly Indo-European. Let me pick two Ligurian tribal names which are particularly suggestive of this:

"Alpini" - compare Latin "Albus" (white), the native name "Albion" for Britain, the Gallaecian tribe called the "Albiones"

"Taurini" - compare Latin "Taurus", Gaulish "Tarvos" , Lusitanian "Taurom" (all meaning "Bull")
 
It has been suggested that the river "Loire" took its name from "Liger" meaning ligure (ligurian in French)
 
Taranis, I agree with your view of the Ligurian language; however, I don't think we know when it was adopted by the Ligures. I also believe that they were a mixed people to some degree(aren't we all); a particular strain of the neolithic (quite a bit of E, J, and G2a there) as well as a strain from north of the Alps.

All my other questions remain. I'm not totally convinced by the prevailing theory on the internet that R1b is Bronze Age in Central Europe. I think there is a case to be made for the Neolithic. Myres et al certainly think so. The Chassey culture is one that I have been reading about lately.

In this vein,for a good chunk of my life, I've lived a few miles from the Statue Stele of the Lunigiana (anthropomorphic menhirs) which are sometimes cited as proof for some sort of proto-celtic-italic Bronze Age movement into Europe. That piqued my interest, and I've read as much about them as I could find. I think some of them are much older than the dates given for this supposed movement from the Danube by a "kurgan" derived culture.
 
Taranis, I agree with your view of the Ligurian language; however, I don't think we know when it was adopted by the Ligures. I also believe that they were a mixed people to some degree(aren't we all); a particular strain of the neolithic (quite a bit of E, J, and G2a there) as well as a strain from north of the Alps.

I don't know. One problem is that our main evidence of the Ligurian language is onomastic, we do not have any Ligurian inscriptions to tell us more about their language.

All my other questions remain. I'm not totally convinced by the prevailing theory on the internet that R1b is Bronze Age in Central Europe. I think there is a case to be made for the Neolithic. Myres et al certainly think so. The Chassey culture is one that I have been reading about lately.

Well, Myres basically just said "Neolithic or younger". In my opinion, R1b in Europe is neither Neolithic nor Bronze Age, it's Chalcolithic in age - that is, the Copper Age. In my opinion, a strong case can be made for this, especially if you consider the dimensions of the Founder Effect in Western Europe:

If we look at the more archaic varieties of R1b-M269 (basically, R1b-M269 without R1b-P310), it's clear that this is very rare in Europe in general. The same can be said about R1b-L23, if again we exclude R1b-P310. Conversely R1b-P310 *dominates* Western Europe, and is very rare outside of Western Europe. The only archaeological culture that matches this pattern - relatively sudden appearance and spread across a wide area in Western Europe - is the Beaker-Bell Culture. We know that by the Bronze Age (the Urnfield Culture, circa 1000 BC), it's already present in Central Europe and must have diversified already, while before (Corded Ware and LBK periods), it appears to be absent (if it isn't absent, else, we must assume it to be too rare to show up). So, to me, the case that R1b in Western Europe is Chalcolithic in age is reasonably convincing, especially if you consider that there's no Neolithic Culture that matches the distribution pattern of R1b-P310. Conversely, at least in my opinion, Haplogroups like E1b1b, G2 and J2 verymuch match Neolithic distribution patterns, and as mentioned before G2a3 has actually been found in the Linear Pottery Culture - which verifies that at least it must be Neolithic in age.

In this vein,for a good chunk of my life, I've lived a few miles from the Statue Stele of the Lunigiana (anthropomorphic menhirs) which are sometimes cited as proof for some sort of proto-celtic-italic Bronze Age movement into Europe. That piqued my interest, and I've read as much about them as I could find. I think some of them are much older than the dates given for this supposed movement from the Danube by a "kurgan" derived culture.

Well, I admit I don't know much about that. I admit that things aren't wholly convincing, primarily because in some aspects, the Beaker-Bell period appears to be transitional (for instance, the final construction phase of Stone Henge falls into the period, IIRC), OTOH it also represents a strong hiatus with the previous cultures.
 
Well, Myres basically just said "Neolithic or younger". In my opinion, R1b in Europe is neither Neolithic nor Bronze Age, it's Chalcolithic in age - that is, the Copper Age. In my opinion, a strong case can be made for this, especially if you consider the dimensions of the Founder Effect in Western Europe:

.

That seems to make sense to me. It may very well be the case that much of the early movements into the West were during the Chalcolithic (referring to copper and stone using) Age. While reading 'The Horse, the Wheel, and the Language", I came across many archaeological examples of copper weapons. Aside from the more or less expected copper-headed picks or hammer/axes, it showed what were essentially solid copper maces. Copper , of course, has very limited uses for work as it lacks a good hardening agent, but its weight and ease of handling would have given those who wielded such weapons a decided advantage when employing them against Neolithic people.
 

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