Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 83

Thread: Do Celts still exist?

  1. #1
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Do Celts still exist?

    I am diverting this discussion from the "Celts of Iberia" thread, because it is only tangentially related, that thread is too long, and I was surprised to find on that thread that it is actually a contentious issue.

    So... do Celts still exist today? If so, who are they? Certain ethnic groups (Welsh, Irish, Bretons, etc.)? Only components of certain ethnic groups (say, the Gaelic-speaking Scots)?

    Here are some candidates:

    • The Welsh (Cymry). Their native tongue is Welsh (Cymru), which was spoken by 21% of them as of 2004.
    • The Irish (Éireannaigh). Their native tongue is Irish (Gaeilge), which 1.66 million Irish knew some of as of 2006 (mostly academic, but there are native Irish speakers).
    • The Bretons (Bretoned). Their native tongue is Breton (Brezhoneg), which has about 200,000 speakers.
    • The Scots (Albannaich). One of their native tongues is Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig), spoken by 1.2% of them as of 2001.
    • The Manx (Manninee). Their native language was Manx (Gaelg), which went extinct in 1974, but has been revived by reconstructionists.
    • The Cornish (Kernowyon). Their native language was Cornish (Kernewek), which went extinct circa 1891, but has been revived by reconstructionists.

    Some other possibilities for modern Celts include certain Iberian groups who maintain a Celtic identity to some degree, like Galicians. Celtic culture was once widespread in Western Europe, so many modern ethnic groups can claim Celtic heritage, including some large groups like the English and French, but they rarely actively identify as Celts nowadays.

    For what it's worth, I have a broad view of who is a Celt, and believe that an ethnic group can be both Celtic and something else at the same time. So, for example, the Welsh are Celts even though most speak a Germanic language as their first language because they maintain a Celtic culture. The Scots, on the other hand, are a fusion Germanic-Celtic culture, and their ethnicity can similarly be considered Germanic-Celtic fusion.

    Although ethnic identity can be as much an individual thing as a collective thing, the closest I can come to specifying how Celtic groups are goes like this:

    • The Welsh are Celts. Their language is both Celtic and Germanic, and their culture is primarily Celtic.
    • The Irish are Celts. Their language is both Celtic and Germanic, and their culture is primarily Celtic.
    • The Bretons (not everybody in modern Britanny, just those who identify as Bretons primarily) are Celts. Their language is both Celtic and Romance, and their culture is primarily Celtic.
    • The Scots are Celtic and Germanic. Their language is mostly Germanic but sometimes Celtic, and their culture is both Germanic and Celtic.
    • The Manx are Celtic and Germanic. Their language is mostly Germanic, and their culture is both Germanic and Celtic.
    • The Cornish are Celtic and Germanic. Their language is mostly Germanic, and their culture is both Germanic and Celtic.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    14-04-10
    Location
    america's last eden
    Posts
    332


    Ethnic group
    PROUDLY AMERINDIAN!
    Country: Chile



    i think you have replied to your own question already.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I am diverting this discussion from the "Celts of Iberia" thread, because it is only tangentially related, that thread is too long, and I was surprised to find on that thread that it is actually a contentious issue.

    So... do Celts still exist today? If so, who are they? Certain ethnic groups (Welsh, Irish, Bretons, etc.)? Only components of certain ethnic groups (say, the Gaelic-speaking Scots)?

    Here are some candidates:

    • The Welsh (Cymry). Their native tongue is Welsh (Cymru), which was spoken by 21% of them as of 2004.
    • The Irish (Éireannaigh). Their native tongue is Irish (Gaeilge), which 1.66 million Irish knew some of as of 2006 (mostly academic, but there are native Irish speakers).
    • The Bretons (Bretoned). Their native tongue is Breton (Brezhoneg), which has about 200,000 speakers.
    • The Scots (Albannaich). One of their native tongues is Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig), spoken by 1.2% of them as of 2001.
    • The Manx (Manninee). Their native language was Manx (Gaelg), which went extinct in 1974, but has been revived by reconstructionists.
    • The Cornish (Kernowyon). Their native language was Cornish (Kernewek), which went extinct circa 1891, but has been revived by reconstructionists.

    Some other possibilities for modern Celts include certain Iberian groups who maintain a Celtic identity to some degree, like Galicians. Celtic culture was once widespread in Western Europe, so many modern ethnic groups can claim Celtic heritage, including some large groups like the English and French, but they rarely actively identify as Celts nowadays.

    For what it's worth, I have a broad view of who is a Celt, and believe that an ethnic group can be both Celtic and something else at the same time. So, for example, the Welsh are Celts even though most speak a Germanic language as their first language because they maintain a Celtic culture. The Scots, on the other hand, are a fusion Germanic-Celtic culture, and their ethnicity can similarly be considered Germanic-Celtic fusion.

    Although ethnic identity can be as much an individual thing as a collective thing, the closest I can come to specifying how Celtic groups are goes like this:

    • The Welsh are Celts. Their language is both Celtic and Germanic, and their culture is primarily Celtic.
    • The Irish are Celts. Their language is both Celtic and Germanic, and their culture is primarily Celtic.
    • The Bretons (not everybody in modern Britanny, just those who identify as Bretons primarily) are Celts. Their language is both Celtic and Romance, and their culture is primarily Celtic.
    • The Scots are Celtic and Germanic. Their language is mostly Germanic but sometimes Celtic, and their culture is both Germanic and Celtic.
    • The Manx are Celtic and Germanic. Their language is mostly Germanic, and their culture is both Germanic and Celtic.
    • The Cornish are Celtic and Germanic. Their language is mostly Germanic, and their culture is both Germanic and Celtic.
    Thank you for this excellent post.

    I refer to my previously proposed list of Celtic Nations:

    Ireland

    Scotland

    Wales

    Cornwall

    Isle of Man

    Cumbria

    Brittany

    Gallaecia (Galiza / Galicia and N. Portugal / Bracara)

    Asturias (possibly joined with Cantabria).

  4. #4
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Thank you for this excellent post.

    I refer to my previously proposed list of Celtic Nations:

    Ireland

    Scotland

    Wales

    Cornwall

    Isle of Man

    Cumbria

    Brittany

    Gallaecia (Galiza / Galicia and N. Portugal / Bracara)

    Asturias (possibly joined with Cantabria).
    Re: Cumbrians, Gallaecians, and Asturians, I would say:

    • Cumbrians are principally Germanic, and only speak Germanic really, but have a small remaining Celtic strain in their culture. Any given Cumbrian can be Celtic in addition to Germanic if he/she actively works to reconstruct it or identify as it.
    • Gallaecians are the same, replacing "Germanic" with "Romance."
    • Asturians are the same, although there seems to be less interest and remaining Celtic culture there than in Gallicia (am I right here, Iberians?).

  5. #5
    Regular Member Triskel's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-03-11
    Posts
    45


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Re: Cumbrians, Gallaecians, and Asturians, I would say:

    • Cumbrians are principally Germanic, and only speak Germanic really, but have a small remaining Celtic strain in their culture. Any given Cumbrian can be Celtic in addition to Germanic if he/she actively works to reconstruct it or identify as it.
    • Gallaecians are the same, replacing "Germanic" with "Romance."
    • Asturians are the same, although there seems to be less interest and remaining Celtic culture there than in Gallicia (am I right here, Iberians?).
    Asturian is less regionalist (Cantabrian even less) and more "spanish" or "castillian" than Galicia. Anyway, Asturian tradicional folk is as celtic as Galician.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS14h36N9-E

  6. #6
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Re: Cumbrians, Gallaecians, and Asturians, I would say:
    • Cumbrians are principally Germanic, and only speak Germanic really, but have a small remaining Celtic strain in their culture. Any given Cumbrian can be Celtic in addition to Germanic if he/she actively works to reconstruct it or identify as it.
    • Gallaecians are the same, replacing "Germanic" with "Romance."
    • Asturians are the same, although there seems to be less interest and remaining Celtic culture there than in Gallicia (am I right here, Iberians?).
    The drive to maintain and expand Celticity is strongest in Galicia, followed by Minho and Tras-os-Montes (N. Portugal). Asturias also has strong Celtic traditions, similar to these areas.

    In addition, it should be mentioned that there is a movement in Central Portugal (Acel-Trebopala) to revive Lusitanian culture, which is fundamentally very Celtic. The Lusitanian language (para-Celtic or Proto-Celtic, although some do classify it as Celtic), Lekantu (sp?), has been recently partially reconstructed by Acel-Trebopala.

  7. #7
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    In addition, it should be mentioned that there is a movement in Central Portugal (Acel-Trebopala) to revive Lusitanian culture, which is fundamentally very Celtic. The Lusitanian language (para-Celtic or Proto-Celtic, although some do classify it as Celtic), Lekantu (sp?), has been recently partially reconstructed by Acel-Trebopala.
    Reconstructionism is always an interesting topic. It would be a stretch to call modern Central Portugal "Celtic" in much of any sense, but I'm convinced of the closeness of Lusitanian language and culture to Celtic.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Reconstructionism is always an interesting topic. It would be a stretch to call modern Central Portugal "Celtic" in much of any sense, but I'm convinced of the closeness to Lusitanian language and culture to Celtic.
    There is some level of Celticity in N. Central Portugal (Beira Alta).

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    14-03-11
    Posts
    106


    Country: Spain



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I am diverting this discussion from the "Celts of Iberia" thread, because it is only tangentially related, that thread is too long, and I was surprised to find on that thread that it is actually a contentious issue.

    So... do Celts still exist today? If so, who are they? Certain ethnic groups (Welsh, Irish, Bretons, etc.)? Only components of certain ethnic groups (say, the Gaelic-speaking Scots)?

    Here are some candidates:

    • The Welsh (Cymry). Their native tongue is Welsh (Cymru), which was spoken by 21% of them as of 2004.
    • The Irish (Éireannaigh). Their native tongue is Irish (Gaeilge), which 1.66 million Irish knew some of as of 2006 (mostly academic, but there are native Irish speakers).
    • The Bretons (Bretoned). Their native tongue is Breton (Brezhoneg), which has about 200,000 speakers.
    • The Scots (Albannaich). One of their native tongues is Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig), spoken by 1.2% of them as of 2001.
    • The Manx (Manninee). Their native language was Manx (Gaelg), which went extinct in 1974, but has been revived by reconstructionists.
    • The Cornish (Kernowyon). Their native language was Cornish (Kernewek), which went extinct circa 1891, but has been revived by reconstructionists.

    Some other possibilities for modern Celts include certain Iberian groups who maintain a Celtic identity to some degree, like Galicians. Celtic culture was once widespread in Western Europe, so many modern ethnic groups can claim Celtic heritage, including some large groups like the English and French, but they rarely actively identify as Celts nowadays.

    For what it's worth, I have a broad view of who is a Celt, and believe that an ethnic group can be both Celtic and something else at the same time. So, for example, the Welsh are Celts even though most speak a Germanic language as their first language because they maintain a Celtic culture. The Scots, on the other hand, are a fusion Germanic-Celtic culture, and their ethnicity can similarly be considered Germanic-Celtic fusion.

    Although ethnic identity can be as much an individual thing as a collective thing, the closest I can come to specifying how Celtic groups are goes like this:

    • The Welsh are Celts. Their language is both Celtic and Germanic, and their culture is primarily Celtic.
    • The Irish are Celts. Their language is both Celtic and Germanic, and their culture is primarily Celtic.
    • The Bretons (not everybody in modern Britanny, just those who identify as Bretons primarily) are Celts. Their language is both Celtic and Romance, and their culture is primarily Celtic.
    • The Scots are Celtic and Germanic. Their language is mostly Germanic but sometimes Celtic, and their culture is both Germanic and Celtic.
    • The Manx are Celtic and Germanic. Their language is mostly Germanic, and their culture is both Germanic and Celtic.
    • The Cornish are Celtic and Germanic. Their language is mostly Germanic, and their culture is both Germanic and Celtic.
    Let me see...it's a hard question.......Well I have to say..NO. And now let me ask you something Do arabs exist? You're so ridiculous.

  10. #10
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Brady View Post
    Let me see...it's a hard question.......Well I have to say..NO. And now let me ask you something Do arabs exist? You're so ridiculous.
    ...what?

  11. #11
    Regular Member Triskel's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-03-11
    Posts
    45


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    the mexican again

  12. #12
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    ...what?
    Pay him no mind...poor lost soul.

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    14-03-11
    Posts
    106


    Country: Spain



    Yeah! you're right...it's so boring...see you.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Blah, blah, blah. Not even a good liar. A sorry case.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    what have arabs anytinhg to do with Celts ?


  16. #16
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    I had assumed this thread would be principally about to what degree Celts from the British Isles and Brittany had been influenced by Germanic and Romance peoples... this group certainly has different interests, though.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    I guess he must be foaming at the mouth by now. This is one for the psychiatric journals.

    Should we ring a medical school as regards this little guy. Harvard, Yale, Brown, Stanford, Johns Hopkins... Anyone?

  18. #18
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I had assumed this thread would be principally about to what degree Celts from the British Isles and Brittany had been influenced by Germanic and Romance peoples... this group certainly has different interests, though.
    I don't know. He keeps talking about arabs in all threads related with Celts. Weird.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Just put him on your ignore list and continue the discussion. The man loves to talk to himself.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I had assumed this thread would be principally about to what degree Celts from the British Isles and Brittany had been influenced by Germanic and Romance peoples... this group certainly has different interests, though.
    Why don't we broaden the discussion to include all Atlantic Celts. There is a similar thread on DNA Forums.

  21. #21
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Why don't we broaden the discussion to include all Atlantic Celts. There is a similar thread on DNA Forums.
    Well, all Celts are open to discussion, certainly. I was thinking more along the lines of direct answers to the question: "Do Celts still exist?" I have seen the answer "no" to that on the other thread. And the most direct counterexamples IMHO are in the British Isles and Brittany.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Triskel's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-03-11
    Posts
    45


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    I think that there are people with celtic heritage (cultural and ascendency) but the celts dissapeared. Italians aren't romans for example, and Irish aren't celts, they are people of pred. celtic origin and culture but they're a bit different of their antecessors. But it's only my opinion.

  23. #23
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Triskel View Post
    I think that there are people with celtic heritage (cultural and ascendency) but the celts dissapeared. Italians aren't romans for example, and Irish aren't celts, they are people of pred. celtic origin and culture but they're a bit different of their antecessors. But it's only my opinion.
    OK, so would you make a distinction between "Celt" and "Celtic," like how "German" and "Germanic" are used differently? And would you be comfortable saying that Welsh, Irish, etc. are Celtic peoples, but not Celts in the old use of the term?

    I think that the terms "Celt" and "Celtic" are usually used interchangeably in English, although if we want to be strict about it, we should probably be using "Celtic" only for modern peoples, and "Celt" only for the contiguous ancient culture. "Celtic tribes" would be most appropriate for the Roman era, post-P/Q split.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Well, all Celts are open to discussion, certainly. I was thinking more along the lines of direct answers to the question: "Do Celts still exist?" I have seen the answer "no" to that on the other thread. And the most direct counterexamples IMHO are in the British Isles and Brittany.
    I do believe there is a legitimate Celtic consciousness. It's an enduring component of the habitus of any population group with Celtic ancestry.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    OK, so would you make a distinction between "Celt" and "Celtic," like how "German" and "Germanic" are used differently? And would you be comfortable saying that Welsh, Irish, etc. are Celtic peoples, but not Celts in the old use of the term?

    I think that the terms "Celt" and "Celtic" are usually used interchangeably in English, although if we want to be strict about it, we should probably be using "Celtic" only for modern peoples, and "Celt" only for the contiguous ancient culture. "Celtic tribes" would be most appropriate for the Roman era, post-P/Q split.
    I would say "Celtic peoples". Communities with an awareness of Celticity.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Romans, Alpine Celts and Belgae : close cousins ?
    By Maciamo in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 09-04-19, 23:35
  2. Celts and Haplogroup G/J
    By Alan in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 14-03-18, 22:00
  3. The Celts of Iberia
    By Cambrius (The Red) in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 1554
    Last Post: 06-10-11, 06:30
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-07-11, 09:07
  5. Romans, Alpine Celts and Belgae... OFFTOPIC about J2b and Indians
    By observatrix in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 17-05-11, 21:12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •