Alexander the great

[Yaan]

In the Balkan R1b never dominate!E(V13) and J2b in the ancient time,then they together with J2,R1a and I2a!
R1b is the haplogroup of the common people in the West Europe, they did not really dominate there either the Frnech Kings were G2a! I just point out the true! R1b is about as important in the Balkan as I2a in Holland!

 

[Yaan]

Also about King Tut, it means nothing and maybe it is not even true! Ancient Egyptians were mostly T and E(V12)!

 

[Yetos]

In the Balkan R1b never dominate!E(V13) and J2b in the ancient time,then they together with J2,R1a and I2a!
R1b is the haplogroup of the common people in the West Europe, they did not really dominate there either the Frnech Kings were G2a! I just point out the true! R1b is about as important in the Balkan as I2a in Holland!

there also minor asian R1b like L40 which is characteristic of area,

 

[Yaan]

Yes of course,but R1b is not big in Bulgarians,Macedonians,Serbs, Montenegrin,Boshniaks. Croats and Slovenians have some more probably thought Germanic admixture, and Greeks and Albanians have a lot due to the Hellenics.
I think ancient Greeks were R1b and J2b people ,with also E(V13).

 

[Kitty]

for he was fair and of a light color, passing into ruddiness in his face and upon his breast.

Greetings, everyone. I stumbled across this interesting site because of my research into Alexander the Great for a fiction manuscript. For reasons far too long to discuss here, I'm researching the possible makeup of his DNA (I've settled on R1b1b2).

The explanation I heard recently of the above quote (sorry, I can't remember who came up with it, and I've been racking my brain!!) is that the first mention, fair, is of his hair colour, the second, light color, is of his skin. It makes sense to me; why mention colouring twice if it relates to the same characteristic? So I consider him a blonde.

Back to Alexander's DNA; for the sake of my manuscript, I have his haplogoup as a subclade thought to be extinct in the modern population. Is this even a possiblity? Would an extinct haplogroup be detectable to scientists, and would they be able to identify the approximate era he lived, just from his DNA? Please forgive me if these questions seem silly or ignorant, I'm a writer/artist, and science, let alone genetics, is not my strong suit.

Thank you for any assistance you can provide.

 

[sparkey]

Greetings, everyone. I stumbled across this interesting site because of my research into Alexander the Great for a fiction manuscript. For reasons far too long to discuss here, I'm researching the possible makeup of his DNA (I've settled on R1b1b2).

The explanation I heard recently of the above quote (sorry, I can't remember who came up with it, and I've been racking my brain!!) is that the first mention, fair, is of his hair colour, the second, light color, is of his skin. It makes sense to me; why mention colouring twice if it relates to the same characteristic? So I consider him a blonde.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to do here... genetic fiction? If you're trying to make, say, a Northwestern European connection for Alexander in your fiction, you may want to be more precise than "R1b1b2," because there are some subclades that are much more common in Asia and Eastern Europe. The typically Western/Central European subclade is R1b-L11. I don't know what the full name of that is in the naming scheme you're using, but you can see how it relates to others on Maciamo's R1b page (where he uses a different naming scheme than you).

Back to Alexander's DNA; for the sake of my manuscript, I have his haplogoup as a subclade thought to be extinct in the modern population. Is this even a possiblity?

It's technically a possibility, but it's not all that likely for someone who lived in the Classical Age. It's much more likely for individuals who lived prior to the Neolithic... a long time earlier. It also depends heavily on how precise the subclade is... an extinct branch of R1b-U152 is much more likely than an extinct branch of R1b-L23.

Would an extinct haplogroup be detectable to scientists, and would they be able to identify the approximate era he lived, just from his DNA?

They would have to test all known SNPs to confirm that he doesn't have any beyond the last one he has in common with modern people, then look for new ones, find at least one new one, and ensure that no living person who has tested has it (which can be assisted by STR comparisons). It sounds complicated, but it's actually done regularly even for non-famous people, so I'm sure scientists would be willing to undertake the task for Alexander.

Scientists would be able to estimate the age of his extinct clade, but that would be before the time he lived, which they wouldn't be able to estimate just by his STRs and SNPs.

 

[Kitty]

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your time, and I guess I need to provide more context. The plot of my manuscript is the remains of Alexander are found and a British geneticist clones him. His ancient memories are intact, he's still Alexander (I know, this would never happen in reality, but this is fiction). He tries to fit in, with his real identity a secret, but later in the story, someone high up in British law enforcement becomes suspicious about him, suspects what might have happened, and steals a DNA sample. When the man takes the sample to be tested, I'm trying to determine what the scientist would tell him. It's critical to the story that the scientist confirm that the DNA sample comes from an ancient man, which is why I was thinking about Alexander having an extinct subclade. The scientist doesn't have to go into great detail, just a few sentences that are scientifically realistic, and I don't want to make things up. That's bad writing.

Could his DNA be confirmed as ancient? If not, how could I possibly work around this?

 

[sparkey]

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your time, and I guess I need to provide more context. The plot of my manuscript is the remains of Alexander are found and a British geneticist clones him. His ancient memories are intact, he's still Alexander (I know, this would never happen in reality, but this is fiction). He tries to fit in, with his real identity a secret, but later in the story, someone high up in British law enforcement becomes suspicious about him, suspects what might have happened, and steals a DNA sample. When the man takes the sample to be tested, I'm trying to determine what the scientist would tell him. It's critical to the story that the scientist confirm that the DNA sample comes from an ancient man, which is why I was thinking about Alexander having an extinct subclade. The scientist doesn't have to go into great detail, just a few sentences that are scientifically realistic, and I don't want to make things up. That's bad writing.

Could his DNA be confirmed as ancient? If not, how could I possibly work around this?

Oh, I get it. It would make more sense if the scientist said something like: "His haplotype is closer to his subclade modal than any other that we've seen. It must be ancient." (The idea being that it's not necessarily extinct, but that it hasn't had as long to mutate away from the original.)

 

[zanipolo]

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your time, and I guess I need to provide more context. The plot of my manuscript is the remains of Alexander are found and a British geneticist clones him. His ancient memories are intact, he's still Alexander (I know, this would never happen in reality, but this is fiction). He tries to fit in, with his real identity a secret, but later in the story, someone high up in British law enforcement becomes suspicious about him, suspects what might have happened, and steals a DNA sample. When the man takes the sample to be tested, I'm trying to determine what the scientist would tell him. It's critical to the story that the scientist confirm that the DNA sample comes from an ancient man, which is why I was thinking about Alexander having an extinct subclade. The scientist doesn't have to go into great detail, just a few sentences that are scientifically realistic, and I don't want to make things up. That's bad writing.

Could his DNA be confirmed as ancient? If not, how could I possibly work around this?

If you can get the vatican to allow to test the bones of St.mark in venice, we can see if they are not from 100AD but from 300BC , then they are the bones of Alexander the great.
http://www.rense.com/general53/romb.htm

This 400 years would be easy to analyse. The hard part is the church.

 

[LeBrok]

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your time, and I guess I need to provide more context. The plot of my manuscript is the remains of Alexander are found and a British geneticist clones him. His ancient memories are intact, he's still Alexander (I know, this would never happen in reality, but this is fiction). He tries to fit in, with his real identity a secret, but later in the story, someone high up in British law enforcement becomes suspicious about him, suspects what might have happened, and steals a DNA sample. When the man takes the sample to be tested, I'm trying to determine what the scientist would tell him. It's critical to the story that the scientist confirm that the DNA sample comes from an ancient man, which is why I was thinking about Alexander having an extinct subclade. The scientist doesn't have to go into great detail, just a few sentences that are scientifically realistic, and I don't want to make things up. That's bad writing.

Could his DNA be confirmed as ancient? If not, how could I possibly work around this?

It is an intriguing idea with a great potential, good luck.

What do you mean that his ancient memories are intact? He remembers his past life?
If this is what you meant then you don't need to worry too much about the rest not being "scientifically realistic".

Genetically speaking, if you clone him again, he will be most likely a very similar person. Strong leader, megalomaniac, great tactician, ambitious, maybe egoistic, smart, loving war, fighting, sports, explore and discover, etc.
Let's say he is cloned by some british rebels, or Irish, gets into main life and becomes top general in British army, he does a military coup and becomes a dictator, then he tries to rebuild British Empire. Of course he destroys the rebels he came from as not needed and of different goals. At some point he learns he is a clone of Alexander. He conquers Balkans with Macedonia, and in the last seen he discovers his grave or his father grave and cries on his grave " Look father, I did it! I went to the end of the Earth/world this time!

 

[Kitty]

Oh, I get it. It would make more sense if the scientist said something like: "His haplotype is closer to his subclade modal than any other that we've seen. It must be ancient." (The idea being that it's not necessarily extinct, but that it hasn't had as long to mutate away from the original.)

Thank you so much, this is good! It gives just enough realistic scientific info without making the average reader's eyes glaze over. :wink:

If you can get the vatican to allow to test the bones of St.mark in venice, we can see if they are not from 100AD but from 300BC , then they are the bones of Alexander the great.
This 400 years would be easy to analyse. The hard part is the church.

I've heard this theory, but I think it's a reach. Alexander's remains are probably lost to us, destroyed during the Christian riots, but I hope I'm wrong!

It is an intriguing idea with a great potential, good luck.
What do you mean that his ancient memories are intact? He remembers his past life?

Thank you, and yes, he does remember his ancient life--he's still the same man--trying to fit in, and faced with all the problems of our modern world.

Let's say he is cloned by some british rebels, or Irish, gets into main life and becomes top general in British army, he does a military coup and becomes a dictator, then he tries to rebuild British Empire. Of course he destroys the rebels he came from as not needed and of different goals. At some point he learns he is a clone of Alexander. He conquers Balkans with Macedonia, and in the last seen he discovers his grave or his father grave and cries on his grave " Look father, I did it! I went to the end of the Earth/world this time!

My Alexander is a little more tame than that, because today's world wouldn't tolerate his aggression, but over the course of the three sequels I've written, he does rise to prominence again.

 

[LeBrok]

Thank you, and yes, he does remember his ancient life--he's still the same man--trying to fit in, and faced with all the problems of our modern world.

Well, then I would have a little problem believing in this "science" in your fiction. It is rather basic scientific knowledge that DNA can't store living memories, it is our brain domain. As much as I like science fiction I would have a hard time getting over this premise.

My Alexander is a little more tame than that, because today's world wouldn't tolerate his aggression, but over the course of the three sequels I've written, he does rise to prominence again.

You might have a psychological problem here. If he remembers all the past, his past behaviour, actions, and also aggression, likings, love, hate, excitement,bravery, domination, killings etc, then how come he can be tamed today? Having a copy of real Alexander with same character traits and with all his memories you wouldn't be able to make him a different man. If you did he would have been very unhappy and depressed living as an ordinary man, just reminiscing how bravely he sent thousand men to death on battlefield and gang raped whole village of women, and not only, if the whole legend of him is right. Also possibly, growing in today's tamed, peaceful and feminine world, he would feel extremely guilty of his actions of the past life, maybe getting suicidal often. Heck, he might have been prosecuted for genocides, murders, rapes, arson of whole cities, slavery, cruelty to animals, the list goes on.
There is also another unforeseen consequences of withholding memories of past life. Knowing that this is possible, scientists would clone other figures from past to gain knowledge of past events, rewriting the world histories and deromanticizing our past and legends.
What if someone brought Genghis Khan to life? Would he love to fight Alexander to finely figure out who was the best warrior in the world? Maybe it would culminate in Armageddon?
It's a bit of slippery slope, or Pandora box you opened.

I really would change the memory in DNA in science fiction to fantasy realm, and lets say, that the Spirit of Alexander came back to his cloned body, thinking correctly that this is the same Alexander (genetically speaking) and brought memories of past life back with it.

Sorry for "critiquing" to much, but I was in the mood.
All the best.

 

[Kitty]

Well, then I would have a little problem believing in this "science" in your fiction. It is rather basic scientific knowledge that DNA can't store living memories, it is our brain domain. As much as I like science fiction I would have a hard time getting over this premise.

Hi, fellow Calgarian! :wavey: (I just noticed where you're from.) As I said in a previous post, this would never happen, and it's the only liberty I've taken in what I hope is an otherwise realistic presentation of what his life would be like. If nothing else, I feel that Alexander was adaptable to whatever situation he found himself in and, having acquired a passion for biology and medicine from Aristotle, I've made him a doctor, with him channelling his energy into saving lives to make up for those lost at his hands.

If you did he would have been very unhappy and depressed living as an ordinary man, just reminiscing how bravely he sent thousand men to death on battlefield and gang raped whole village of women, and not only, if the whole legend of him is right. Also possibly, growing in today's tamed, peaceful and feminine world, he would feel extremely guilty of his actions of the past life, maybe getting suicidal often.

Here we disagree. Alexander was very chivalrous toward women, treated the women of Darius' family with the upmost of respect, and outlawed the rape of woman by his soldiers. Darius' mother grew to adore him so much that, not only did she adopt him but, upon his death, she starved herself to death. I'm unable to paste the link to a website that touches on how well he treated women, or I would. It's from Digital Attic - Warfare Alexander the Great, and I'll quote it here:

There were also several incidents in which Alexander demonstrated his compassion towards women: After the battle of Issus, the mother, wife and children of Darius were captured, and they grieved, believing that Darius had been killed in battle. Alexander, however, told them that Darius was still alive (he had fled the battle), and that they would be treated as queens. When Darius' soldiers came to rescue Darius' mother, she even refused to leave, and after Alexander died she mourned his demise and fasted to death. Alexander loathed the rape and abuse of women, a quite remarkable view at that time, when women were considered legitimate spoils of war (10). On one noteworthy occasion, he was offered 100 armed girls by the viceroy of Media, but he dismissed them from the army, fearing that they might get violated.

From alanfildes,com:
Alexander's attitude to women was unusual in the extreme, and no doubt influenced by his formidable mother, he treated them with great respect. He regarded rape as a particularly terrible crime which was punished severely. Stating that the perpetrators "should be put to death as wild beasts which prey upon mankind", he immediately freed the Theban woman Tomocleia after she had murdered the soldier who had raped her.

Heck, he might have been prosecuted for genocides, murders, rapes, arson of whole cities, slavery, cruelty to animals, the list goes on.

You're judging him by today's morality, not by the ethics of his time, which is unfair. And I've never read where he was cruel to animals. In fact, I've read the opposite, that he loved animals. If you're including the sacrificing of animals to his gods, people do strange things in the name of religion. Such were the times.

There is also another unforeseen consequences of withholding memories of past life. Knowing that this is possible, scientists would clone other figures from past to gain knowledge of past events, rewriting the world histories and deromanticizing our past and legends.
What if someone brought Genghis Khan to life? Would he love to fight Alexander to finely figure out who was the best warrior in the world? Maybe it would culminate in Armageddon?

But they'd need his remains to clone!

 

[Boss]

Lol I find it hilarious that my thread on this Northern nobility hypothesis was deleted when in fact an admin is voicing such views on here.

No need to be so sensitive.

 

[Maciamo]

Lol I find it hilarious that my thread on this Northern nobility hypothesis was deleted when in fact an admin is voicing such views on here.

No need to be so sensitive.

For the record, I didn't delete your thread about "Northern" elites in Greece and Rome. It must have been one of the moderators. I am also surprised since, after reading it now, I have to say that I find no reason for its deletion and I have restored it.

EDIT : I have just added my comments in your thread.

 

[kamani]

I would guess y-dna R1b, but his DNA as a whole must have been a mix of E-v13, R1b, G, I, and J2 people. So he would have the look of thessaly greeks or albanians.

 

[Bodric]

blue eyes?

can we have a source

cause that is at least with late proven a myth

blonde as a grey-blonde it was after his mother,
Olympias is mentioned blond

But Phillip had curly hair as also alexander
body type of Phillip was short with thick shoulders,
that type (phillip) can be found in eteocretans in thessaly in areas north of athens and in mountain epirus
Here were I live you can find many especially in the villages that are ancient

R1a people are blonde but have straight hairs
R1b is possible but at least in Greece they are not that blonde
G and J is possible cause they have curly hairs and bodytype like alexander

the European kings story of the 3 R1b R1a and G2a in case of Alexander I believe it goes either G either R1b
also in a J there is possibility
the R1a I do not exclude but the bodytype is not according R1a peoples not even the face,

the bones of Makedonian exist. in fact in the Vergina tombs we have even skin but there is a debate among phillip's or alexander IV
also there is a looted tomb, which according many archaiologists might be Olympias tomb in Pudna
for me the case goes either to G and j and after R1b and last the R1a
the case of I and especially of I2a2 is not for discuss cause all makedonian kings were shorts

i still want to hear of Blond Makedonians with blue eyes,
while Phillip was the opposite (maybe the shorter King)

I read this with great concern man..

Blonde - straight hair - blue eyes = R1a ?

Dude don't be so insecure and fixed to genetics.

I have green/brown eyes, brown hair and I'm almost 186 cm. According to this info I'm not slavic or IE or whatever u think correlates with the features but some other thing?

I can tell u I have a R1a lineage that is common with czechs afaik from my genome maps.

I'm not blonde or blue eyed but still slavic. My sisters blonde/blue eyes though and our mother.

Edit; I'd say he was either E or R1a. But as someone stated modern region around Pella is hell of a mixed due to slavs and other nations invading it etc.

 

[Yetos]

I read this with great concern man..

Blonde - straight hair - blue eyes = R1a ?

Dude don't be so insecure and fixed to genetics.

I have green/brown eyes, brown hair and I'm almost 186 cm. According to this info I'm not slavic or IE or whatever u think correlates with the features but some other thing?

I can tell u I have a R1a lineage that is common with czechs afaik from my genome maps.

I'm not blonde or blue eyed but still slavic. My sisters blonde/blue eyes though and our mother.

Edit; I'd say he was either E or R1a. But as someone stated modern region around Pella is hell of a mixed due to slavs and other nations invading it etc.

SO the Albanian Kesi change ID and country now he plays it Serb?

Kesi go with your friend Zeus to find more Loan words in ALbanian

Ahahahaha

KESI ALEXANDER THE GREAT WAS GREEK, NOT ALBANIAN, SO BACK ABOVE JISSAREK LINE OR SUB-SAHARA WHERE YOU CAME FROM.

 

[Bodric]

SO the Albanian Kesi change ID and country now he plays it Serb?

Kesi go with your friend Zeus to find more Loan words in ALbanian

Ahahahaha

KESI ALEXANDER THE GREAT WAS GREEK, NOT ALBANIAN, SO BACK ABOVE JISSAREK LINE OR SUB-SAHARA WHERE YOU CAME FROM.

Dude I'm serb? Don't be schizophrenic. I don't speak albanian nor do I speak greek.

Alexander the great was a macedonian greek, so what? When did I dispute this?

 

[albanopolis]

Alexander was E V13. It seems that E v13 is the halogroup of mad men. Was'nt Hitler E v13, Bonoparte, and Musolini? Why Alexander should be diffrent?