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Thread: Are you in favour of immigration?

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    Passione Mediterranea julia90's Avatar
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    Are you in favour of immigration?



    Are you in favour of immigration?
    both of people who migrate in your country and your connationals who migrate in other countries...


    My opinion, after a long reflexion i belive that people shouldn't migrate, both immigrants in your country and connational in other countries.

    Immigration destabilizes local population and arise ethnic issues, rivaleries and more over the important thing is that in italy there isn't much job available even for locals. so the impression is that immigrants both extracommunitairs and communitairs steal your jobs.

    For example i'm against the immigrations of italians in germany, france, uk etc.. because i wouldn't want more people in my country to steal job opportunities , i wouldn't want being in their situations.

    In conclusions i don't want immigrant both communitairs and extra communitairs in my country, and also i want that the italian population decrease (less birth rate) because i thnik that less we are in this world the better we stay.

    I think people should stay where they are born and have family.

    Here's an italian saying: MOGLI E BUOI DEI PAESI TUOI (Wifes and oxen from your countries/towns)

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    I agree with you, @Julia90...

    However, you should remember that in the period 1848 and 1914, somewhere between 8 - 10 million Italians migrated to USA, Argentina, Brazil, Australia and Canada.

    Certainly, those countries had an immigration policy opened to immigration back then as a means to settle , in a sense, virgin territories. Even so, the Italians faced initially some racism (e.g. in the USA).

    That immigration was "positive" but current immigration is "negative"?

    **

    Anyway, the case is not the same, since we are talking about the "development" of so called "empty space".

    The only moral issue regarding Emigration to Europe, would be to inform proplerly to the people that plan to come, and explain to them just what is the reality they are likely going to face: That they will not be so wellcomed as they imagine, and that the best option for them, will be to develop and improve their own homelands.

    An the other would be, not to hinder development and force people out of their countries by bad and hypocrite policies and schemes.

    Example of today: Libya!!

    The country with the highest standar of living in whole Africa, and the one that cooperated to keep migration from Africa in check, is pushed into anarchy and violence by the interest of European/USA Big Oil and the Petromonarchies of the Gulf.

    Countries that will most suffer a surge due illegal migration as result of that in the following years: Italy, Greece and Spain.

    What a shame!!

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    Yes, I am against immigration, specially massive immigration. I would consider immigration correct in a maximum evel of 2-3% of the population, controlled, and only if needed, but not the levels that we have today of 16% (and that's only legals), that's not immigration that's an invasion. In some towns of Spain they even reach 40+% today. In the case of Spain we have received more than 4 million people in a span of only 10 years, that's crazy, there is no possible way to assimilate so much foreign people in such short time. A lot of conflicts and problems ahead of us.
    Last edited by Wilhelm; 06-04-11 at 00:24.

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    You need smart emigrants and with money too. They come, start businesses and create lots of jobs of locals. Then life is beautiful.

    If you have too many uneducated, not so smart and poor emigrants then they become a drag on a system, unemployment rises and crime too. Life is brutal.


    The strength of US grew up on backs of emigrants. It shows that most of the people that came to US where hard working, entrepreneurial, smart, freedom loving. From completely nothing to world's superpower and a leader in 400 years. It has to mean something, and I bet it is the quality of the people that came to US. After all, the people make the country.

    If you have emigrants of similar culture they adapt much quicker and they don't change local values and culture.
    If you have emigrants of totally different values and customs then it's the point where multiculturalism crumbles, and conflicts start.

    I wish that our countries smarten up in this regard and started to be more selective. As history shown the emigrants can make a great country, or they can destroy it too.

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    I can't agree with Julia, that everyone stay in one place. Man has always migrated, if he didn't we'd all still be living in Africa and there would certainly be no Italy or Europe as we know and love today. Man would not have evolved both physically or technologically, we'd still be living in grass huts or in the trees picking lice out of eachother's hair.

    In today's construct, immigration is vital to any healthy economy, there are always skilled labour shortages in the various industries that need to be filled if industry is to operate successfully. But it must be strictly controlled based on the needs of each particular country, Australia for example has managed its immigration well by placing a cap on numbers of people allowed to enter per year and with attention paid to the skills of each migrant. Europe, to date, have not done so well. Particularly the UK who are only now realising that by not strictly controlling the number of migrants and the size of it's population has only lead to political and social problems.

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    Without immigration all development dies. Some EU countries are in big trouble when it comes to birth rates… and one of them is Italy with a birth rate of 1,2 I believe it is. And it need to be at 2,1.

    In Demark its at around 1,8 still we have a big problem in the next 10 years. We have the so called baby-boomer generations that will retire. With the result of for every person working we will have 2 on pension. So in Denmark we will crash and burn if we don’t get immigrants.

    Italy needs big reforms when it comes to the birth rate. Government needs to have incentives to increase it or there won’t be Italians.

    And your Idea of a protectionist society is the formula for a country to fail. Examples of countries like that are North Korea, Albania under communist dictatorship. And if all were forced back to were they are from the world economy would crash and burn.

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    Basically I think everything has already been said by Spion, Wilhelm, LeBrok, Antigone and Aconform.

    To sum it up and put a little structure into it:

    We have to distinguish between countries which are based on immigration (USA, Australia etc...) and countries which have recently been confronted with high immigration rates (UK, Italy etc...). While the first mentioned are able to cope with immigration relatively well -please note that illigal immigration is a different topic!-, the latter are still struggling to find their place on that issue.

    Fact is, that Western European countries will not survive on the long run without immigration. It is illusional to rise the birth rates by promoting traditional values of giving birth to many children only: People only react on the basic conditions given in society. If a young lady is well educated and has the possibility of earning good money later on, and needs to study and take many periods of practical training until she is in her late 20's, plus bosses expect to be flexible all life through, how many children shall she have then until she reaches the limit of fertility in her mid-30's?

    Immigration destabilizes local population and arise ethnic issues, rivaleries and more over the important thing is that in italy there isn't much job available even for locals. so the impression is that immigrants both extracommunitairs and communitairs steal your jobs.
    That is not true! At least not when we are talking about immigration in general. Arguments are often contradicting when on the one hand foreigners take away our jobs, but on the other hand never want to work and eat our welfare-system. Immigrants who came to Germany with the first immigration wave in the 1950's and 60's, mainly from Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, also to a lower degree from Spain and Portugal, are today with their descendants well assimilated into German society and from their life-style and values hardly to be distinguished from "ethnic" Germans.

    When people refer to the "bad" foreigner, they are usually talking about immigrants from the Middle East, Africa and the Indian sub-continent. People with a total different cultural background who have difficulties assimilating to local customs and values. Here the question comes up how to cope with this problem, and there are two possibilities:

    1. Either we have to improve our methods of integration, which also requires to accept our self-portrait of immigration countries on the one hand, and stricter laws of assimilation [e.g. ban the burca] on the other,

    2. and/or we have to introduce a system similiar to Australia/New Zealand with giving credit points to immigrants according to their economic benefit of our countries.


    On small problem remains in the end:
    If those immigrants accustom to our countries and seek the same life style, they and their children will also give less birth to further children. Which means in the end our societies will be dependant on certain immigration rates until all eternity. I don't know if this might become a problem if immigration flows are suddenly cut off due to any reason. If someone has an answer to that, I will be very grateful!

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    Are you in favour of immigration?
    both of people who migrate in your country and your connationals who migrate in other countries...


    My opinion, after a long reflexion i belive that people shouldn't migrate, both immigrants in your country and connational in other countries.

    Immigration destabilizes local population and arise ethnic issues, rivaleries and more over the important thing is that in italy there isn't much job available even for locals. so the impression is that immigrants both extracommunitairs and communitairs steal your jobs.

    For example i'm against the immigrations of italians in germany, france, uk etc.. because i wouldn't want more people in my country to steal job opportunities , i wouldn't want being in their situations.

    In conclusions i don't want immigrant both communitairs and extra communitairs in my country, and also i want that the italian population decrease (less birth rate) because i thnik that less we are in this world the better we stay.

    I think people should stay where they are born and have family.

    Here's an italian saying: MOGLI E BUOI DEI PAESI TUOI (Wifes and oxen from your countries/towns)

    I could not agree more.

    Europe needs the Australian model where only skilled workers from abroad who fill a vacancy locals cannot fill are allowed to stay as citizens.

    What use are more sellers of umbrellas and cheap watches on Italian and Spanish streets??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aconform View Post
    Without immigration all development dies. Some EU countries are in big trouble when it comes to birth rates… and one of them is Italy with a birth rate of 1,2 I believe it is. And it need to be at 2,1.

    In Demark its at around 1,8 still we have a big problem in the next 10 years. We have the so called baby-boomer generations that will retire. With the result of for every person working we will have 2 on pension. So in Denmark we will crash and burn if we don’t get immigrants.

    Italy needs big reforms when it comes to the birth rate. Government needs to have incentives to increase it or there won’t be Italians.

    And your Idea of a protectionist society is the formula for a country to fail. Examples of countries like that are North Korea, Albania under communist dictatorship. And if all were forced back to were they are from the world economy would crash and burn.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You need smart emigrants and with money too. They come, start businesses and create lots of jobs of locals. Then life is beautiful.

    If you have too many uneducated, not so smart and poor emigrants then they become a drag on a system, unemployment rises and crime too. Life is brutal.


    The strength of US grew up on backs of emigrants. It shows that most of the people that came to US where hard working, entrepreneurial, smart, freedom loving. From completely nothing to world's superpower and a leader in 400 years. It has to mean something, and I bet it is the quality of the people that came to US. After all, the people make the country.

    If you have emigrants of similar culture they adapt much quicker and they don't change local values and culture.
    If you have emigrants of totally different values and customs then it's the point where multiculturalism crumbles, and conflicts start.

    I wish that our countries smarten up in this regard and started to be more selective. As history shown the emigrants can make a great country, or they can destroy it too.
    Anyway, USA was build by white Europeans and that source has dried up. 90% of today immigrants into USA & Canada are not European. I wanna see how American melting pot will work when the white European population will be minority in America & how USA will feel itself. Also recommend to watch. If I was American then I would vote for that man
    Immigration lead to huge problems inside. Europe is nice example:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cuwn17lX6c
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp9_FE6AJTM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZGK33rkk6E
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxxKXl2U7NM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2IHnWY-i6Y
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvlFm4AwAqI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qgfd50mmsD0 (Palestinian kindergarten)
    And no need to talk about workforce

    Attachment 4671

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    On small problem remains in the end:
    If those immigrants accustom to our countries and seek the same life style, they and their children will also give less birth to further children. Which means in the end our societies will be dependant on certain immigration rates until all eternity. I don't know if this might become a problem if immigration flows are suddenly cut off due to any reason. If someone has an answer to that, I will be very grateful!
    Make birth controls eligal.

    lol

    What's left is educating youths about this need, make it a civil honor/duty to have two kids or more, and big tax incentives for families with kids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anton, Bear's den View Post
    Anyway, USA was build by white Europeans and that source has dried up. 90% of today immigrants into USA & Canada are not European. I wanna see how American melting pot will work when the white European population will be minority in America & how USA will feel itself. Also recommend to watch. If I was American then I would vote for that man
    Привет, Антон.

    Certainly, at this moment the Latin American illegal immigration to the USA is excesive. However, against the projections of the racists, the States that are predominantly Latino, are precisely the states with higher GDP in the USA...

    GDP by State (USA)

    Code:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP
    (California has almost the same GDP as Russia, with just approx. 35 million people)

    Many of the people of those States, are from non white Latin American origin...

    Code:
    http://latinostories.com/Latino_Facts_and_Statistics/Latino_Population_by_State.htm
    (To which we should add the Asians, African Americans, et cetera).

    I do not say that the economic preponderance of those states are the result of Latin American immigation. But it could be contended, that that migration have not disrupted the economy of those states in a significant way. On the other hand, we could compare what happened to certain cities of the Midwest like Detroit or Saint Louis, or the traditional stagnation as a whole, of the Plains and the and the South.


    If that trend is going to continue, it will be very intersting to see the results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I could not agree more.

    Europe needs the Australian model where only skilled workers from abroad who fill a vacancy locals cannot fill are allowed to stay as citizens.

    What use are more sellers of umbrellas and cheap watches on Italian and Spanish streets??
    you are right we should receive only skilled people or people who create new businesses and increase job opportunity here.
    Here with that characteristics are only Chineses immigrants, they starts new businesses, althought they create competitiveness with business lead by italians.
    Infact chineses are welcomed.
    also they are not prepotent and they don't cry on themselves or on the italian state.

    i think we don't need people who seek the already scarce job opportunities for italians.

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    I am against immigration.

    We in the Netherlands seem to have the lowest unemployment rate, but that only a capitalist trick. Many women work in cheap labor jobs.
    Even high educated men work below their level.
    Why? There is cheap labor available from all over the world.
    They lower the price of labor.

    The Dutch have to pay gigantic sums for building a house.
    And that's why they have to get a high salary.
    It's the government and real estate mafia that strangles the Dutch economy.

    Immigrants seeking economical advantages use political asylum as a trick to get into The Netherlands. Mostly the rich, who can afford to get an airplane into The Netherlands.

    Dutch capitalists got more and more immigrants into The Netherlands for at least 60 years now, just to profit from cheap labor.
    In the same time the right wing politicians are waving the fascist flag of hatred against Muslims.
    It's the old "divide and rule" trick.

    Socialists know too well, there are no countries. We are all human beings.
    Nations are a ridiculous concept.
    Make an end to greed.

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    Passione Mediterranea julia90's Avatar
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    i thnik the map Anton Bear Dean posted it's useful to understand the situation.
    Untill the unimployment rate hasn't lowered to 0%, states shouldn't accept immigrants.

    there are 7% of residents in italy who haven't a job, we should first worry for them than immigrants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    i thnik the map Anton Bear Dean posted it's useful to understand the situation.
    Untill the unimployment rate hasn't lowered to 0%, states shouldn't accept immigrants.

    there are 7% of residents in italy who haven't a job, we should first worry for them than immigrants.
    I don't agree..
    My old economy teacher told us a country has to have an unemployment rate of 5%, to have a flexible economy. So that would be a fine marker.

    By the way, we have to compete with a fascist slave system in China.
    As long as people in China are abused, we in Europe are exploited by a capitalist mafia as well.

    China is the big time problem nowadays, not the Muslim countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    I don't agree..
    My old economy teacher told us a country has to have an unemployment rate of 5%, to have a flexible economy. So that would be a fine marker.

    By the way, we have to compete with a fascist slave system in China.
    As long as people in China are abused, we in Europe are exploited by a capitalist mafia as well.

    China is the big time problem nowadays, not the Muslim countries.
    i didn't know about that rate. it means italy is in a relatively good situation.

    i agree they work as slaves but they are the only immigrants who come heare to start new businesses, this is a relatively good thing if we compare them to immigrants who have the same aspirations as italians but don't start businesses, so they create high competitions and social ethnic problems of discriminations and hate (both communitairs and extracommunitairs)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spion Stirlitz View Post
    Привет, Антон.

    Certainly, at this moment the Latin American illegal immigration to the USA is excesive. However, against the projections of the racists, the States that are predominantly Latino, are precisely the states with higher GDP in the USA...

    GDP by State (USA)

    Code:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP
    (California has almost the same GDP as Russia, with just approx. 35 million people)

    Many of the people of those States, are from non white Latin American origin...

    Code:
    http://latinostories.com/Latino_Facts_and_Statistics/Latino_Population_by_State.htm
    (To which we should add the Asians, African Americans, et cetera).

    I do not say that the economic preponderance of those states are the result of Latin American immigation. But it could be contended, that that migration have not disrupted the economy of those states in a significant way. On the other hand, we could compare what happened to certain cities of the Midwest like Detroit or Saint Louis, or the traditional stagnation as a whole, of the Plains and the and the South.


    If that trend is going to continue, it will be very intersting to see the results.
    California richest state of USA not because of Latino immigrants. There work more than 1 million of the most talented people collected from the whole world by commercial companies, research laboratories, American government (scientists, entrepreneurs, students, professors, researchers etc...) which concentrated in Silicon Valley. Also many multinational corporations registered there (taxes) + Hollywood Industry.
    I don't know about Latino people much, never talked with them a lot. Maybe they are much better than other immigrants. But I have very big doubts that immigration by itself leads to prosperity, here everything depends from the quality of immigrants themselves. America was lucky, they got Europeans which moved because of endless wars & conflicts in Europe (the most developed place at that time), many of them were highly educated & cultural, had protestant values. Or Israel, which got a "gift" from the dying Soviet Union in kind of 1-3 millions of highly educated specialists.

    But today, when some people say: "import this Attachment 4672 or this Attachment 4673 and Europe will blossom like a flower!", this causes only laughter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anton, Bear's den View Post
    California richest state of USA not because of Latino immigrants. There work more than 1 million of the most talented people collected from the whole world by commercial companies, research laboratories, American government (scientists, entrepreneurs, students, professors, researchers etc...) which concentrated in Silicon Valley. Also many multinational corporations registered there (taxes) + Hollywood Industry.
    The base of development of California was Agriculture and Agroindustry, not high technology or services... tomatoes and carrots were first, not Boing or Hollywood. Those came later.

    Code:
    http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/us/A0857126.html

    I don't know about Latino people much, never talked with them a lot. Maybe they are much better than other immigrants. But I have very big doubts that immigration by itself leads to prosperity, here everything depends from the quality of immigrants themselves.
    I see them as kind of "average". They are not the worst or the best that America could have gotten in the last half century in such numbers.

    Nowadays East Asians are much prefered in comparison.

    But today, when some people say: "import this... and Europe will blossom like a flower!", this causes only laughter
    I reserve to myself my judgment of that.

    I have meet many Turks that are very well educated and enterprenurial, even when as a group their integration to Europe (i.e. Germany) is cuestioned today. For me it is a big question mark.

    (@Mzungu gave a superb explanation of that recently).

    **

    Now, I think that a country that should be asking itself about the convenience of having immigration, is Russia, given the population crisis it faces.

    Code:
    http://www.voanews.com/english/news/europe/Demographers-Warn-of-Looming-Population-Crisis-for-Russia-118382619.html
    Code:
    http://www.gwu.edu/~ieresgwu/assets/docs/ponars/pm_0118.pdf
    I think this will be a very interesting contribution to know your viewpoints, Anton.

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    I am against immigration, I was exhausted having to deal daily with people from 100 different countries, many do not even make the effort to speak Spanish, is the limit!, with its shops cover where drug trafficking, white slavery and all the garbage they have brought to Spain, I am very tired of seeing all these people here, what should all this? In Spain the legal and illegal immigration is a scandal, rather than the Spanish family support to more children may have preferred to meet Spain's garbage, do not understand.

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    Ban contraceptives!

    Hey don't look at me. I made 3 kids already, that's why I'm allowed to have vasectomy. :)

    For the rest of white middle class, get busy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    Infact chineses are welcomed.
    also they are not prepotent and they don't cry on themselves or on the italian state.
    Chinese immigrants can also bring their own set of problems if there is no careful screening of immigrants, the major one is organised crime. And there are still no guarantees with selectivity, quite often it is the wealthier and better educated who are involved in Triads. Triad and other gang culture has become quite a problem in Australia amongst the Chinese and other East Asian communities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Make birth controls eligal.

    lol

    What's left is educating youths about this need, make it a civil honor/duty to have two kids or more, and big tax incentives for families with kids.
    and

    Ban contraceptives!

    Hey don't look at me. I made 3 kids already, that's why I'm allowed to have vasectomy. :)

    For the rest of white middle class, get busy.
    Tax incentives for families with kids, or at least for single mums or dads, is something I would strongly support. For the rest, it is not that Europeans don't know they will get in trouble without children later on. But what to do if the basic conditions don't fit?

    Here again the difference between the "New World" (USA, Canada, Australia etc.) and the "Old World" (Europe) becomes obvious: I think that the basic infrastructure for children (possibilities to take care of them when working, same applies to elderly people) is better in North America, because flexibility is part of life and culture. This is just starting to develope in Europe.

    When you do your studies over here and take your first work experience in a certain field, you will be nailed to it for the rest of your life. Young people in Europe have to be more than careful which sort of studies and jobs they pick on. The result is that they invest a vast number of years into learning, studiyng and practical training. When they are finished and have enough money to raise a family, especially for ladies it gets hard as they don't have that much time anymore until fertility is over.
    But life is getting longer, we are getting older and also healthier at a higher age, which means we will still work for decades until we retire. You can't expect a person to do the same job for over 40 or 50 years. [And some even say, you can't spend the same amount of years with the same wife or husband, whoops... shift of values]
    But governments and companies here don't have any sympathy for that, simply because it has never been like that.

    The problem is even well to be observed in Southern Europe, where traditionally families have been very large and everyone takes care of each other within. So elderly people and children are not that simply given away to other institutions like in Northern Europe. But the spirit of our time doesn't allow you to invest much time into your family, everything is about flexibility, flexibility, flexibility! Or you will end up on the bottom line of society. So what can young people in Southern Europe do? They simply don't produce any children, that's why birth rates are dropping.

    This is one of the issues our govs have to set their focus on!



    Back to immigration:
    I guess that no one here would believe it, but especially in rural areas of Germany we have an extreme shortage of health workers (doctors, nurses, other therapists). This is also an area highly populated by elderly people, and chronical diseases have become somewhat epidemic. Higher production of health workers has already become too late, and the problem will intensify the following years. I think an immigration system similiar to Australia would reduce this problem, but the German government as well as the population shows their full schizophrenic and paranoid mentality in this country, which wasn't founded on immigration: We would like to welcome more doctors from other countries, but each time they arrive, they open their jackets and pull the string of their suicide bombs...

  23. #23
    Elite member edao's Avatar
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    I think within EU people should be able to go where they want.(which is largely the case) There are loads of Spanish and Polish in Edinburgh and it is only a good thing.

    If some lazy Scottish/British person can't compete with them for jobs tough, get more skills, get more experience work harder.

    Outside of Europe it should be stopped or reduced drastically. Asylum seekers should be turned away, go to a neighbouring country don't come to the richest country asking for help, is it about you life or your wallet?

  24. #24
    aimless wanderer Mzungu mchagga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    I think within EU people should be able to go where they want.(which is largely the case) There are loads of Spanish and Polish in Edinburgh and it is only a good thing.

    If some lazy Scottish/British person can't compete with them for jobs tough, get more skills, get more experience work harder.

    Outside of Europe it should be stopped or reduced drastically. Asylum seekers should be turned away, go to a neighbouring country don't come to the richest country asking for help, is it about you life or your wallet?

    My point of view!

  25. #25
    Passione Mediterranea julia90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    I think within EU people should be able to go where they want.(which is largely the case) There are loads of Spanish and Polish in Edinburgh and it is only a good thing.

    If some lazy Scottish/British person can't compete with them for jobs tough, get more skills, get more experience work harder.

    Outside of Europe it should be stopped or reduced drastically. Asylum seekers should be turned away, go to a neighbouring country don't come to the richest country asking for help, is it about you life or your wallet?
    i'm against intra european immigration instead.
    europe is not usa.
    also intar european immigartion arises ethnic rivalities.
    also southern europeans that move to north europe or north-east europe are not welcomed usually.

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