Turkish Dna, Research of Haplogroups C, E, G, I, J, L, N, Q, R and T

[iapetoc]

I was laughing when i read this post of yours. You say Ottomans originated and come from Persia and Azerbaijan, and basing upon this argument you say that the Ottomans are of Middle East Caucasian origin. Very funny, do you know where the Ottomans came from before the settlements in Iran, Azerbaijan and Syria areas? Let me answer, first of all Ottomans are not another nation, or do not represent the name of a nation, rather Osman is a name of a Turk family leader in the 13th-14.th century. The Ottomans are of the Karakeçili-Kayı Tribe of Oghuz Turks. The Oghuz Turks all have settled in Anatolia, Iran and Azerbaijan areas during the 11th-13th century(with the Selcuk Empire), and came from Central Asia-Turkmenistan area. After the battle of Malazgirt, where the Selcuks(another Oghuz family Tribe who rules a Turk Empire) have beaten the Byzantins, all Byzantins have left Anatolia. And also an important part of the Byzantin armies were of Kuman Kıpchak Turk origin.

And it is also a proven fact by many historians that Turks have been in Anatolia thousands of years before the Oghuz Turks.

So Selcuks did not come directly from Mongolia, but they have migrated from Turkmenistan to all countries between Turkmenistan and Turkiye. But, since the Selcuks are of the Oghuz Tribe, and since the Turk nation has three main tribes, namely Oghuz, Karluk and Kipchak, this means that Selcuks and Ottomans are both descendants of Asian Huns(Xiongnu Turks). So they actually do come from Mongolia, but not in 11th century but during the first centuries.

it is funny, but only in areas where seljuk settled we found white desert (Zinyang) Y-Dna, cause I in Turkey it is connected with Curds and Dinaric, Serbians Croats Romanians, And proves that settlement 1000 years BC,
J is ancient Here, in fact many J-Ydna are considered Greek,
The linguistic proves that Turks mainly ottomans were in Touch with Greeks before 11 Century AD, so infact almost 35% of urkey pop is cinsidered Turkish and that is under discuss, cause many believe that only 10-15% is Turkish, and mostly are converted,
the Numerous of 300 000 Seljuk and 80 000 Ottomans that were estimated at 10-11 century AD are proving that, by many Turks I have discuss Ottomans could be Alans, and not Turks,

in fact in a small search of my own, I found many common root words exept the above is also Tirmik where in Cappadokia and Pontus is Turmach, is simmilar to Greek-Byzantine Terra-machion->ter-mach->tirmich
since from mother i am Rum, i know that is enough Greek words in Turkish and they are not moggolian, so probably Ottomans had part of PIE language, or in Fact majority of Turks are not from white desert but converted minor Asians

in fact Byzantines left only from Cillikia, until today live in Turkey,
the last not converted Byzantines left in 1923 and not in 13 century,
so don't make me laugh,

the only Turkish if it is Y-Dna in Turkey is R1a
and by what I heard Ottomans were more Alans G-Ydna than R1a, there is a story that seljuk moved from east, and Ottomans from North,

 

[TurkmenCopur]

it is funny, but only in areas where seljuk settled we found white desert (Zinyang) Y-Dna, cause I in Turkey it is connected with Curds and Dinaric, Serbians Croats Romanians, And proves that settlement 1000 years BC,
J is ancient Here, in fact many J-Ydna are considered Greek,
The linguistic proves that Turks mainly ottomans were in Touch with Greeks before 11 Century AD, so infact almost 35% of urkey pop is cinsidered Turkish and that is under discuss, cause many believe that only 10-15% is Turkish, and mostly are converted,
the Numerous of 300 000 Seljuk and 80 000 Ottomans that were estimated at 10-11 century AD are proving that, by many Turks I have discuss Ottomans could be Alans, and not Turks,

in fact in a small search of my own, I found many common root words exept the above is also Tirmik where in Cappadokia and Pontus is Turmach, is simmilar to Greek-Byzantine Terra-machion->ter-mach->tirmich
since from mother i am Rum, i know that is enough Greek words in Turkish and they are not moggolian, so probably Ottomans had part of PIE language, or in Fact majority of Turks are not from white desert but converted minor Asians

in fact Byzantines left only from Cillikia, until today live in Turkey,
the last not converted Byzantines left in 1923 and not in 13 century,
so don't make me laugh,

the only Turkish if it is Y-Dna in Turkey is R1a
and by what I heard Ottomans were more Alans G-Ydna than R1a, there is a story that seljuk moved from east, and Ottomans from North,

it is funny, but only in areas where seljuk settled we found white desert (Zinyang) Y-Dna, cause I in Turkey it is connected with Curds and Dinaric, Serbians Croats Romanians, And proves that settlement 1000 years BC,
J is ancient Here, in fact many J-Ydna are considered Greek,
The linguistic proves that Turks mainly ottomans were in Touch with Greeks before 11 Century AD, so infact almost 35% of urkey pop is cinsidered Turkish and that is under discuss, cause many believe that only 10-15% is Turkish, and mostly are converted,
the Numerous of 300 000 Seljuk and 80 000 Ottomans that were estimated at 10-11 century AD are proving that, by many Turks I have discuss Ottomans could be Alans, and not Turks,

in fact in a small search of my own, I found many common root words exept the above is also Tirmik where in Cappadokia and Pontus is Turmach, is simmilar to Greek-Byzantine Terra-machion->ter-mach->tirmich
since from mother i am Rum, i know that is enough Greek words in Turkish and they are not moggolian, so probably Ottomans had part of PIE language, or in Fact majority of Turks are not from white desert but converted minor Asians

in fact Byzantines left only from Cillikia, until today live in Turkey,
the last not converted Byzantines left in 1923 and not in 13 century,
so don't make me laugh,

the only Turkish if it is Y-Dna in Turkey is R1a
and by what I heard Ottomans were more Alans G-Ydna than R1a, there is a story that seljuk moved from east, and Ottomans from North,

You do not base your writings on anything, you show no data at all who confirm anything, therefore i dont take your messages seriously, and will not waste time either with you after this post.

Lets begin with haplogroup J, let me proof you the Turk origin of haplogroup J.

Haplogroup J is found with 72,0%(1. Place Ranking) in Avar Turks in the study Yunusbaev et. al. 2006. In Azerbaijan Turks(in studies Zerjal et. al. 2002, Wells et. al. 2001, Giacomo et. al. 2004, Murci et. al. 2001, Nasidze et. al. 2004) Haplogroup J frequencies are: 57,9%(1. Place Ranking), 48,0%(1. Place Ranking), 39,1%, 34,0%(1. Place Ranking), 31,0%(1. Place Ranking).
In Kumik Turks Haplogroup J frequencies are: 46,0%(1. Place Ranking).
In Uzbek Turks Haplogroup J frequencies are: 34,7%(1. Place Ranking).
In Uygur Turks Haplogroup J frequencies are: 34,0%(1. Place Ranking).
In Xiongu Hun Turk Graves there is also found one Haplogroup J. And a lot more data available at http://www.turktoresi.com.

Haplogroup G ıs found with 86,7%(1. Place Ranking) in Kazak Turks(Bíró et. al. 2009). Even this is enough data. And i have already discussed Haplogroup I.

 

[TurkmenCopur]

you have very nice site. and interesting to read.

but you must excuse for this word.

Thanks, you are welcome at our site. I have respect for everyone, and "scum" isnt more heavy than the words "absurd" and "weird Turk nationalist ideas that have no place in science".

 

[Taranis]

Thanks, you are welcome at our site. I have respect for everyone, and "scum" isnt more heavy than the words "absurd" and "weird Turk nationalist ideas that have no place in science".

Well, I'm afraid to say this, but you're proving what I'm trying to say by yourself: you are arguing Haplogroups G and J also originate with the Turkic people, whereas their distributions show no clear correlation (at least with the Haplogroups as a whole):

In fact, Haplogroup G is far more likely to have originated with Neolithic farmers, which spread into Europe. It has been found in fact with the Linear Pottery Culture.

Check out this article below:

Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities

In particular, check out this.

I think however that some European Haplogroup G can be attributed to the Avars (who presumably did actually speak a Turkic languages).

 

[Dagne]

I've been always wondering why it's only Y-Dna are compared when talking about ethnicities. Is it only because of lacking information about mtDNA subclades which could link them to ethnicity/traits? Or mtDNA are not seemed as important for genetic make up whatsoever?

 

[Taranis]

I've been always wondering why it's only Y-Dna are compared when talking about ethnicities. Is it only because of lacking information about mtDNA subclades which could link them to ethnicity/traits? Or mtDNA are not seemed as important for genetic make up whatsoever?

Actually, mitochondrial DNA is used as well, but it has a number of disadvantages to it: first off, the DNA of mitochondria is much smaller than that of chromosomes, which also means that mutation rates of mitochondria are somewhat unsuitable for offering a good resolution at the time scales of human history. I do have the impression however that mitochondrial DNA has the advantage that it is somewhat easier preserved. Some of the mitochondrial Haplogroups can however be correlated with Y-chromosomal Haplogroups.

 

[how yes no 2]

If you had read the site carefully you would have seen the evidence.

no evidence at all...most people in your list are not ethnic Turks... don't mix genetic origin with combination of religious choice with smaller or greater cultural influence...

bosnian muslims are Slavic people with gene flow from Turkey very likely to be less then 1%, with islam religion and with couple of turkish words in everyday use...

haplogroup I in Turkey is concentrated in Kurds and people who origin from Balkan people...

Chuvash are thought to partially origin from Sabar people who are in fact matching location of earlier mentioned Serboi by Ptolemy and Serians by Seneca...Serians according to Seneca lived in Serica which is north China south Sibir area, in Caspian highlands (where Serboi are mentioned before and Sabirs later), on Red sea, and in Europe around Danube...

ethnic origin of Gagauz is not known... so far there are 21 theories about their origin..

I do not see how Cossacks are Turks... in fact, it is a name for culture not for ethnic origin... Cossacks are most pro-Serb oriented people in Russia...in all previous wars in Balkans there were Cossack volounters fighting on Serb side...in fact, there are theories that name Srb had in Russia meaning soldier and that from that soldier caste Cossacks originated....

Magyars are not Huns...Huns have disappeared, but were Mongolian people thus probably haplogroup C, maybe some Q (as we can find some haplogroup Q in Balkan people)...besides levels of haplogroup I in Hungary fits levels in its neighbourhood...in fact, there are many people in Hungary who origin from south Slavs...note also that east and west Hungary that cluster with Serbs/Croats/Romanians/central Ukraine (see http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html) ....that is logical as Slavs lived there before Magyars arrived...

Uzbeks have 7% of haplogroup I... so it is like claiming that Serbs and Irish are same people as both have R1b...

Tatars have 4% of haplogroup I ...40% is just in single place and if you want to find origin of haplogroup I you should study people from that place..as haplogroup I obviously doesnot correlate with Tatars as whole but is only locally present...

btw. nice map...correlates well with Serians mentioned by Seneca...

1st spot you make is south Siberia, 2nd is Serica, 3rd is Caspian highlands (near where Serboi/Serians/Sarbans were recorded), 4th spot in Cappadocia matches people recorded in history Cimmerians/ Syrians in Strabo's writings...5th spot are Serbs...
all those people origin from ancient Serians...

white Syrians are people of Cappadocia in times of Strabo

As for the Paphlagonians, they are bounded on the east by the Halys River, which, according to Herodotus, “flows from the south between the Syrians and the Paphlagonians and empties into the Euxine Sea, as it is called;”19by "Syrians," however, he means the "Cappadocians," and in fact they are still today called "White Syrians," while those outside the Taurus are called "Syrians." As compared with those this side the Taurus, those outside have a tanned complexion, while those this side do not, and for this reason received the appellation "white." And Pindar says that the Amazons“swayed a 'Syrian' army that reached afar with their spears,
” thus clearly indicating that their abode was in Themiscyra. Themiscyra is in the territory of the Amiseni; and this territory belongs to the White Syrians, who live in the country next after the Halys River.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...98:book=12:chapter=3&highlight=thracian,eneti

while Cappadocians were called white Syrians
according to Byzantine emperor Serbs origin from white Serbs

now, if you want more details about origin of haplogroup I in Turkey...


it is in my opinion about people who origin from Serians mentioned by Seneca...

Seneca postulates that Serians live in Caucasus, on Red sea, in Serica area (northwest China of today) and in Europe around Danube....

[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.

27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Serians produced fleece in Serica in northwest China of today....
Serians from Europe live somewhere around Danube as they dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...
Serians from Caspian mountains who live among Sarmatians are clearly matching Serbi/Serboi recorded by Ptolomy in Sarmatia Asiatica... on same place later we find Sabirs... note that this is next to Amazones and that Strabo speaks of Cappadocians or west Syrians fighting all the way to Amazones...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

we also know that Cappadocians likely origin from Cimmerians

The term Gimirri was used about a century later in the Behistun inscription (ca. 515 BC) as a Babylonian equivalent of Persian Saka (Scythians). Otherwise Cimmerians disappeared from western Asian historical accounts, and their fate was unknown. It has been speculated that they settled in Cappadocia, known in Armenian as Գամիրք, Gamir-kʿ (the same name as the original Cimmerian homeland in Mannae).[citation needed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

regarding Serians from Europe...
manuscript of Bavarian geographer records that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it....

now, variants of Kurdish language are:
Kurmanji (northern parts of Kurdistan)
Sorani (further east and south)
Zaza-Gorani
Hewrami (a variation of Gorani)

obviously Sorani is same tribal name as Serians....

one of Sorani dialects is called Garmiani, which is clearly corruption of tribal name Germani

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorani

point is this is place of early settlement of haplogroup I (after initial spread from area of Kerman/Germania/Zermanya in Persia, Iran), from there it spread to Europe in several waves...very early wave as haplogroup I1 Germanic people, next one as I2b Germanic people, next one as I2a proto-Serbs....

to Hebrews this haplogroup I people were known as nations of Gomer and Ripath
... note that person named Gomer is thought to be ancestor of Germanic people, and that Riphat is its son.... according to map we can guess that Ripath is in fact forefather of Paphlagonia Veneti, and in 6th century Jordanes claims that Slavic people are of Venetic race... elsewhere on forum I have shown that early Slavs were clearly dominantly I2a people... note that Gomer is Japhet's son and that Russian primary chronicle claims Slavs to origin from Japhet....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhet

knowing that Veneti completely moved out from Paphlagonia (as written in Strabo's book), we can expect island of genetic imprint of Gomer in Cappadocia and layers of people originating from Gormer and his son Riphat above Black sea...
that is exactly what we see in haplogroup I2a spread

now Veneti from whom according to historian Jordanes early Slavs origin (http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html), lived in Paphlagonia...

...at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...98:book=12:chapter=3&highlight=thracian,eneti
it is widely accepted Gomer are same people as Cimmerians....

The first historical record of the Cimmerians appears in Assyrian annals in the year 714 BC. These describe how a people termed the Gimirri helped the forces of Sargon II to defeat the kingdom of Urartu. Their original homeland, called Gamir or Uishdish, seems to have been located within the buffer state of Mannae. The later geographer Ptolemy placed the Cimmerian city of Gomara in this region. After their conquests of Colchis and Iberia in the First Millennium BC, the Cimmerians also came to be known as Gimirri in Georgian. According to Georgian historians[8], the Cimmerians played an influential role in the development of both the Colchian and Iberian cultures. The modern-day Georgian word for hero, ?????, gmiri, is derived from the word Gimirri.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimerians

now white Syrians = ancient Cappadocians = Cimmerians = Gimirri = Gomer
gmiri= hero
Kerman/Germania/Zermanya = battle, hero

root word of Serian also hero
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm


Strabo records story of earlier authors that Paphlagonia Eneti were kicked out from Paphlagonia after joint expedition with Cimmerians... now that joint expedition is logical because Eneti/Veneti are sons of Riphat and Riphat is son of Gomer, and Gomer people are Cimmerians....

but, Cimmerians did return to area and settle in Cappadocia, which is where haplogroup I and I2a hotspots are... Greek authors call settlers of Cappadocia white Syrians...which is same tribal name as Serians...

let's compare archeological findings of Cimmerians and of early Slavs

Thraco-Cimmerians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians

early Slavs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs

you can probably add to early Slavs areas also Bohemia/Bavaria as Byzantine emperor claims that Serbs came to Balkan from area Boika where they always lived and that neighbours Frankia.. and also Tribalia or upper Moesia, as Byzantine sources in later times use name Tribalians for Serbs, and Russian primary chronicle puts proto-Slavic people prior to Roman empire spread roughly in Moesia (north and central Serbia and north Bulgaria)...

obviously, Thraco-Cimmerians and early Slavs cover exactly the same area... this area is mostly marked with I2a haplogroup... Cimmerians are in Cappadocia later known as white Syrians, and Slavs are claimed to origin from big state of Zeruiani...
according to byzantine emperor Serbs settled Balkan from land which they call Boika where they also originally lived...Boika is likely land of Boii or Bohemia/Bavaria area where we find toponyms such as Srby and Serviodurum ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Domažlice_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plzeň-South_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing ) ...Both Bavaria and Bohemia are named after Boii who has lived there originally... Boii related tribe are Scordisci...with Thrachanized part of tribe bearing name Serdi...both Serdi and Scordisci lived in Serbia.... interesting coincidences, right?

http://books.google.com/books?id=3a...istrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

Cimbri/Cimbrians thought to origin from Cimmerians (or Cappadocian in terms of Turkey) have a king whose name is Boiorix or king of Boii....north of Scordisci lived Boii, north most Serbia is Voivodina ...clearly Serbia/Voivodina maps to Scordisci(Serdi)/Boii by root word and geographical orientation... soldier in Slavic languages is "vojnik"/"bojovnik" again root word is Boii... same as root of words Kerman/Germania, Serians and Cimmerians/Gomer...

now, regarding cultural links between Serbs and Kurds
there is circular dance with holding hands, and relation to wolf...

Kurdish dance is a group of traditional hand-holding dances similar to those from the Balkans, Lebanon, and to Iraq. It is a form of round dancing, with a single or a couple of figure dancers often added to the geometrical centre of dancing circle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_culture

this is identical circle dance typical for Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolo_(dance)

circle dance with holding hands exist elsewhere, e.g. in I2a1 areas of Iberia it is called Sardana....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana

in nearby Sardinia live Sardinians who are I2a1 people....

we can conclude that circle dance with holding hands is probably predating split of I2a on I2a1 and I2a2... while it is absent in I2b and I1 populations who have split much earlier from haplogroup I core...

tribal names Sardana/Sardinia/Sherdana and Serb origin from same same tribal name

lake in Egypt was named after sea peoples known as Sherdana...this lake is called Serbonian bog or Sirbonis...

back to Serb/Slav/Kurd/Cimmerian/Hettite links...
Serbs are related to wolves...national animal that represents Serbs is wolf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_Serbia

Lycia people were related to wolves... at least two leaders of Lycians were called Sarpedon where don might have been title...

word Kurt in Turkish means wolf...
Lycia is same name as for area Lika in Croatia inhabited by both Serbs and Croats... tribal name as Lech (mythical ancestor of Poles) might origin from same word...

btw. key Slavic gods are Perun and Veles

Veles (Cyrillic: Велес; Polish: Weles;Czech: Veles; Old Russian and Old Church Slavonic: Велесъ) also known as Volos (Russian: Волосъ)? (listed as a Christian saint in Old Russian texts) is a major Slavic supernatural force of earth, waters and the underworld, associated with dragons, cattle, magic, musicians, wealth and trickery. He is the opponent of the Supreme thunder-god Perun, and the battle between two of them constitutes one of the most important myths of Slavic mythology.

Perun is in fact easily matched to Hurrian Teshub (same God as Zeus) as Teshub's name is in Hati Taru, and in Hititte/Luwian is Tarhun...

Teshub (also written Teshup or Tešup; cuneiform dIM) was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian Taru. His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun (with variant stem forms Tarhunt, Tarhuwant, Tarhunta), although this name is likely from the Proto-Indo-European Perkūnas[1] or the Hittite root *tarh- to defeat, conquer.[2][3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

In Norse polytheism, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, destruction, fertility, healing, and the protection of mankind. The cognate deity in wider Germanic mythology was known in Old English as Þunor and in Old High German Donar (runic þonar ᚦᛟᚾᚨᚱ), stemming from a Common Germanic *Þunraz (meaning "thunder").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor

Similarity of Taru to Germanic Thor indicates that Hati (pre-Hetite people in Asia minor) spoke language alike to Germanic people...
Similarity of Luwian Tarhun to Slavic Perun means that Hittite and/or Luwian people spoke language alike to proto-Balto-Slavic....

let's look at later Gods...

Sabazios (Ancient Greek: Σαβάζιος) is the nomadic horseman and sky father god of the Phrygians and Thracians. In Indo-European languages, such as Phrygian, the -zios element in his name derives from dyeus, the common precursor of Latin deus ('god') and Greek Zeus. Though the Greeks interpreted Phrygian Sabazios[1] with both Zeus and Dionysus,[2] representations of him, even into Roman times, show him always on horseback, as a nomadic horseman god, wielding his characteristic staff of power.
...
It seems likely that the migrating Phrygians brought Sabazios with them when they settled in Anatolia in the early first millennium BCE, and that the god's origins are to be looked for in Macedonia and Thrace. The recently discovered ancient sanctuary of Perperikon in eastern Thrace is believed to be that of Sabazios. The Macedonians were also noted horsemen, horse-breeders and horse-worshippers up to the time of Philip II, whose name signifies "lover of horses".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

also look at these words from Thracian dictionary

sabazias ‘free’ [Old-Bulg. svobod' ‘free’].
..
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

clearly, Sabazios is coin word... it is about Saba+ Zeus = Serb God or God of proto-Serbs?

hand gesture used in rituals related of Sabazios

hand gesture used by Serbs (tenis player Novak Djokovic on picture bellow)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_prsta

proofs for Slav/Serb/Serian/Anatolian/Cimmerian/Veneti connection are everywhere....
common denominator is haplogroup I2

ethnic Turks came to Anatolia much later... and in small numbers.. modern Turks are genetically not so much originating from original Turks ... they are genetically cousins to Slavs, Greeks, and other Europeans...this is because Europe was likely settled from Anatolia... and Anatolia still has very old variants of key Europe haplogroups... modern Turks are also related to middle east people due to very long history of living in same country...it is hard to tell what was haplogroup of original Turks...

btw. Robert Salinas Price believes that Iliad and the Odyssey were originally written in Slavic-alike language and only later translated to Greek
http://www.homer.com.mx/index.html

 

[TurkmenCopur]

no evidence at all...most people in your list are not ethnic Turks... don't mix genetic origin with combination of religious choice with smaller or greater cultural influence...

bosnian muslims are Slavic people with gene flow from Turkey very likely to be less then 1%, with islam religion and with couple of turkish words in everyday use...

haplogroup I in Turkey is concentrated in Kurds and people who origin from Balkan people...

Chuvash are thought to partially origin from Sabar people who are in fact matching location of earlier mentioned Serboi by Ptolemy and Serians by Seneca...Serians according to Seneca lived in Serica which is north China south Sibir area, in Caspian highlands (where Serboi are mentioned before and Sabirs later), on Red sea, and in Europe around Danube...

ethnic origin of Gagauz is not known... so far there are 21 theories about their origin..

I do not see how Cossacks are Turks... in fact, it is a name for culture not for ethnic origin... Cossacks are most pro-Serb oriented people in Russia...in all previous wars in Balkans there were Cossack volounters fighting on Serb side...in fact, there are theories that name Srb had in Russia meaning soldier and that from that soldier caste Cossacks originated....

Magyars are not Huns...Huns have disappeared, but were Mongolian people thus probably haplogroup C, maybe some Q (as we can find some haplogroup Q in Balkan people)...besides levels of haplogroup I in Hungary fits levels in its neighbourhood...in fact, there are many people in Hungary who origin from south Slavs...note also that east and west Hungary that cluster with Serbs/Croats/Romanians/central Ukraine (see http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html) ....that is logical as Slavs lived there before Magyars arrived...

Uzbeks have 7% of haplogroup I... so it is like claiming that Serbs and Irish are same people as both have R1b...

Tatars have 4% of haplogroup I ...40% is just in single place and if you want to find origin of haplogroup I you should study people from that place..as haplogroup I obviously doesnot correlate with Tatars as whole but is only locally present...

btw. nice map...correlates well with Serians mentioned by Seneca...

1st spot you make is south Siberia, 2nd is Serica, 3rd is Caspian highlands (near where Serboi/Serians/Sarbans were recorded), 4th spot in Cappadocia matches people recorded in history Cimmerians/ Syrians in Strabo's writings...5th spot are Serbs...
all those people origin from ancient Serians...

white Syrians are people of Cappadocia in times of Strabo

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...98:book=12:chapter=3&highlight=thracian,eneti

while Cappadocians were called white Syrians
according to Byzantine emperor Serbs origin from white Serbs

now, if you want more details about origin of haplogroup I in Turkey...


it is in my opinion about people who origin from Serians mentioned by Seneca...

Seneca postulates that Serians live in Caucasus, on Red sea, in Serica area (northwest China of today) and in Europe around Danube....


Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Serians produced fleece in Serica in northwest China of today....
Serians from Europe live somewhere around Danube as they dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...
Serians from Caspian mountains who live among Sarmatians are clearly matching Serbi/Serboi recorded by Ptolomy in Sarmatia Asiatica... on same place later we find Sabirs... note that this is next to Amazones and that Strabo speaks of Cappadocians or west Syrians fighting all the way to Amazones...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

we also know that Cappadocians likely origin from Cimmerians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

regarding Serians from Europe...
manuscript of Bavarian geographer records that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it....

now, variants of Kurdish language are:
Kurmanji (northern parts of Kurdistan)
Sorani (further east and south)
Zaza-Gorani
Hewrami (a variation of Gorani)

obviously Sorani is same tribal name as Serians....

one of Sorani dialects is called Garmiani, which is clearly corruption of tribal name Germani

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorani

point is this is place of early settlement of haplogroup I (after initial spread from area of Kerman/Germania/Zermanya in Persia, Iran), from there it spread to Europe in several waves...very early wave as haplogroup I1 Germanic people, next one as I2b Germanic people, next one as I2a proto-Serbs....

to Hebrews this haplogroup I people were known as nations of Gomer and Ripath
... note that person named Gomer is thought to be ancestor of Germanic people, and that Riphat is its son.... according to map we can guess that Ripath is in fact forefather of Paphlagonia Veneti, and in 6th century Jordanes claims that Slavic people are of Venetic race... elsewhere on forum I have shown that early Slavs were clearly dominantly I2a people... note that Gomer is Japhet's son and that Russian primary chronicle claims Slavs to origin from Japhet....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhet

knowing that Veneti completely moved out from Paphlagonia (as written in Strabo's book), we can expect island of genetic imprint of Gomer in Cappadocia and layers of people originating from Gormer and his son Riphat above Black sea...
that is exactly what we see in haplogroup I2a spread

now Veneti from whom according to historian Jordanes early Slavs origin (http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html), lived in Paphlagonia...


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...98:book=12:chapter=3&highlight=thracian,eneti
it is widely accepted Gomer are same people as Cimmerians....



now white Syrians = ancient Cappadocians = Cimmerians = Gimirri = Gomer
gmiri= hero
Kerman/Germania/Zermanya = battle, hero

root word of Serian also hero
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm


Strabo records story of earlier authors that Paphlagonia Eneti were kicked out from Paphlagonia after joint expedition with Cimmerians... now that joint expedition is logical because Eneti/Veneti are sons of Riphat and Riphat is son of Gomer, and Gomer people are Cimmerians....

but, Cimmerians did return to area and settle in Cappadocia, which is where haplogroup I and I2a hotspots are... Greek authors call settlers of Cappadocia white Syrians...which is same tribal name as Serians...

let's compare archeological findings of Cimmerians and of early Slavs

Thraco-Cimmerians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians

early Slavs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs

you can probably add to early Slavs areas also Bohemia/Bavaria as Byzantine emperor claims that Serbs came to Balkan from area Boika where they always lived and that neighbours Frankia.. and also Tribalia or upper Moesia, as Byzantine sources in later times use name Tribalians for Serbs, and Russian primary chronicle puts proto-Slavic people prior to Roman empire spread roughly in Moesia (north and central Serbia and north Bulgaria)...

obviously, Thraco-Cimmerians and early Slavs cover exactly the same area... this area is mostly marked with I2a haplogroup... Cimmerians are in Cappadocia later known as white Syrians, and Slavs are claimed to origin from big state of Zeruiani...
according to byzantine emperor Serbs settled Balkan from land which they call Boika where they also originally lived...Boika is likely land of Boii or Bohemia/Bavaria area where we find toponyms such as Srby and Serviodurum ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Doma%C5%BElice_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plze%C5%88-South_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing ) ...Both Bavaria and Bohemia are named after Boii who has lived there originally... Boii related tribe are Scordisci...with Thrachanized part of tribe bearing name Serdi...both Serdi and Scordisci lived in Serbia.... interesting coincidences, right?

http://books.google.com/books?id=3a...istrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

Cimbri/Cimbrians thought to origin from Cimmerians (or Cappadocian in terms of Turkey) have a king whose name is Boiorix or king of Boii....north of Scordisci lived Boii, north most Serbia is Voivodina ...clearly Serbia/Voivodina maps to Scordisci(Serdi)/Boii by root word and geographical orientation... soldier in Slavic languages is "vojnik"/"bojovnik" again root word is Boii... same as root of words Kerman/Germania, Serians and Cimmerians/Gomer...

now, regarding cultural links between Serbs and Kurds
there is circular dance with holding hands, and relation to wolf...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_culture

this is identical circle dance typical for Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolo_(dance)

circle dance with holding hands exist elsewhere, e.g. in I2a1 areas of Iberia it is called Sardana....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana

in nearby Sardinia live Sardinians who are I2a1 people....

we can conclude that circle dance with holding hands is probably predating split of I2a on I2a1 and I2a2... while it is absent in I2b and I1 populations who have split much earlier from haplogroup I core...

tribal names Sardana/Sardinia/Sherdana and Serb origin from same same tribal name

lake in Egypt was named after sea peoples known as Sherdana...this lake is called Serbonian bog or Sirbonis...

back to Serb/Slav/Kurd/Cimmerian/Hettite links...
Serbs are related to wolves...national animal that represents Serbs is wolf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_Serbia

Lycia people were related to wolves... at least two leaders of Lycians were called Sarpedon where don might have been title...

word Kurt in Turkish means wolf...
Lycia is same name as for area Lika in Croatia inhabited by both Serbs and Croats... tribal name as Lech (mythical ancestor of Poles) might origin from same word...

btw. key Slavic gods are Perun and Veles

Perun is in fact easily matched to Hurrian Teshub (same God as Zeus) as Teshub's name is in Hati Taru, and in Hititte/Luwian is Tarhun...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor

Similarity of Taru to Germanic Thor indicates that Hati (pre-Hetite people in Asia minor) spoke language alike to Germanic people...
Similarity of Luwian Tarhun to Slavic Perun means that Hittite and/or Luwian people spoke language alike to proto-Balto-Slavic....

let's look at later Gods...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

also look at these words from Thracian dictionary

sabazias ‘free’ [Old-Bulg. svobod' ‘free’].
..
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

clearly, Sabazios is coin word... it is about Saba+ Zeus = Serb God or God of proto-Serbs?

hand gesture used in rituals related of Sabazios

hand gesture used by Serbs (tenis player Novak Djokovic on picture bellow)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_prsta

proofs for Slav/Serb/Serian/Anatolian/Cimmerian/Veneti connection are everywhere....
common denominator is haplogroup I2

ethnic Turks came to Anatolia much later... and in small numbers.. modern Turks are genetically not so much originating from original Turks ... they are genetically cousins to Slavs, Greeks, and other Europeans...this is because Europe was likely settled from Anatolia... and Anatolia still has very old variants of key Europe haplogroups... modern Turks are also related to middle east people due to very long history of living in same country...it is hard to tell what was haplogroup of original Turks...

btw. Robert Salinas Price believes that Iliad and the Odyssey were originally written in Slavic-alike language and only later translated to Greek
http://www.homer.com.mx/index.html

Another funny guy, i thaught this forum was a serious forum.

Bosnian, Chuvash, Gagauz, Cossacks, Magyars, Uzbeks are all pure Turks, and historical facts prove this.

I dont understand how you make up this sentence of yours, "Tatars have 4% of haplogroup I", because ive clearly written the frequencies of I in Tatars: 40,0%(1. Place in Ranking), 33,3%(2. Place in Ranking), 18,0%(2. Place in Ranking).

Bosnians are of Kuman Kipchak Turks, Gagauzes are a mix of Kipchak and Oguz(Pechenek Tribe) Turks, Cossacks are Russificied Turks, Chuvashes are descendants of Khazars and Bulgars, Uzbeks are also pure Turks(probably Kipchak Tribe), Magyars are descendants of European Huns. Coming to Kurds, it is a proven fact(academicly proven) that at least 33% of Kurds who live in the areas of old Ottoman Empire have Oghuz Turkmen(Prof. Dr. Yusuf Halaçoğlu et. al.) descent. And also, it is also proven that most words of the Kurdish language of today are the same as names of Huns and other Proto Turk tribes(Prof. Dr. Kazım Mirşan et. al.).

It is even being said that Serbs have Turk origin. The other subjects you wrote about i have already answered in my previous posts, there is no need to repeat things. You can do a search at our site to find more detailed information about these subjects. Clearly you have the same mentality as the other 2 guys in this topic. I will not not loose time by writing to you also.

 

[how yes no 2]

Another funny guy, i thaught this forum was a serious forum.

Bosnian, Chuvash, Gagauz, Cossacks, Magyars, Uzbeks are all pure Turks, and historical facts prove this.

Lol, you can lie about Bosnians being pure Turks someone who did not live in ex-Yugoslavia...

In Bosnia live Serbs, Croats, and muslim population of Slavic origin, language and culture that lost its national identity after converting to islam.... muslims of Bosnia have nothing to do with Turks..... reason they exist now as nation is that during Ottoman empire being muslim in Balkan meant not paying taxes, while being Christian meant paying heavily taxes....also it is about population in areas that were not devoted to orthodox Christianity as they were prior to Ottoman conquest belonging to heretic church of Bosnia....so in central part of Bosnia people did massively switch to islam...

btw. your thread is pointless... In Turkey it is about I2* mostly...while in Balkan and east Europe it is about I2a2...distance is in order of ten thousand years...

Bosnia catholics - now called Croats ( big part of them origin from Paganians or Narentanes and Byzantine sources call this people pagan/unbaptized Serbs).never mixed with Turks and are like 70% I2a2... In Turkey I2a people are mostly Kurds and people who origin from them...so are you trying to say Kurds are original Turks and they settled in Herzegovina?

I dont understand how you make up this sentence of yours, "Tatars have 4% of haplogroup I", because ive clearly written the frequencies of I in Tatars: 40,0%(1. Place in Ranking), 33,3%(2. Place in Ranking), 18,0%(2. Place in Ranking).

because 4% is data for Tatars as whole as you can see in table in wikipedia with source indicated in table... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

Bosnians are of Kuman Kipchak Turks

Bosnians can be of Turkic origin only if Serbs and Croats are....

there are people who find links between Croats and Oghur Turks (google Osman Karatay), so I suggest you should follow that link instead of inventing....

I do think Serbs and Croats descend respectively from ancient Serians and Hurians... not convinced those were Turkic people...but some branch of those people did later become Turkic...e.g. Oghurs..

I think that Turkic Oghurs are Og - Hurians or west Hurians...

also Sabirs on shores of Caspian sea who match locations of earlier Ptolemy Serboi/Serbi and of Seneca's Serians are Turkic...but that is all only after invasion of Turkic people...we do not know what Sabirs were originally...

genetics is much older than languages / cultures.... e.g. latin language was 2500 years ago spoken only in little village called Rome...now latin derived languages are spoken in Italy, France, Romania, Portugal, Spain, latin America....
language and culture do not imply anything when it comes to genetics... as they are on completely different time scales... I prefer using tribal names as possible marker of shared genetic origin...

anyway, if you are right and proto-Turks were haplogroup I people, that would mean that Serbs and Croats are genetically real Turks, while Turks of Turkey are just people who accepted Turkic culture... dunno how you can explain fact that haplogroup I in Turkey is mostly in Iranian Kurds... were Kurds proto-Turks?

in my opinion haplogroup I has split from IJ somewhere in Persia and spread gradually towards Europe in several waves during a very long period...I suspect that haplogroup IJ did speak PIE language originally...and has transferred it to most of R1a and R1b people...

Clearly you have the same mentality as the other 2 guys in this topic. I will not not loose time by writing to you also.

decide in time what you want to be when you grow up... genetic scientist, historian or shrink....
though, judging by intellectual level of your posts, there is still a lot of time before you need to make that decision...

 

[iapetoc]

Another funny guy, i thaught this forum was a serious forum.

Bosnian, Chuvash, Gagauz, Cossacks, Magyars, Uzbeks are all pure Turks, and historical facts prove this.

I dont understand how you make up this sentence of yours, "Tatars have 4% of haplogroup I", because ive clearly written the frequencies of I in Tatars: 40,0%(1. Place in Ranking), 33,3%(2. Place in Ranking), 18,0%(2. Place in Ranking).

Bosnians are of Kuman Kipchak Turks, Gagauzes are a mix of Kipchak and Oguz(Pechenek Tribe) Turks, Cossacks are Russificied Turks, Chuvashes are descendants of Khazars and Bulgars, Uzbeks are also pure Turks(probably Kipchak Tribe), Magyars are descendants of European Huns. Coming to Kurds, it is a proven fact(academicly proven) that at least 33% of Kurds who live in the areas of old Ottoman Empire have Oghuz Turkmen(Prof. Dr. Yusuf Halaçoğlu et. al.) descent. And also, it is also proven that most words of the Kurdish language of today are the same as names of Huns and other Proto Turk tribes(Prof. Dr. Kazım Mirşan et. al.).

It is even being said that Serbs have Turk origin. The other subjects you wrote about i have already answered in my previous posts, there is no need to repeat things. You can do a search at our site to find more detailed information about these subjects. Clearly you have the same mentality as the other 2 guys in this topic. I will not not loose time by writing to you also.

ROFL

seems like Turkish propaganda tellers wake up, and realize that Turks are minority even in Turkey,

lets See
E-Ydna is surely not Turkish but Kushetic origin
I-YDNA is Central Balkan origin and is characteristic of Kurds who relatives of Serbians Croats Daci (Bosnians are new to be a nation, although after convert developed culture)
J-YDNA
J1 is semetic mostly middle eastern and Arabian
J2a well it is Anatolian and Greek (Pelasgian-Aegean)
J2a8 (Crete-minor asia) & J2a7 (Trapezus) are considered as Greek
many other J2a are considered Anatolian and Levant ancient
J2b is also considered Greek and Levant

R1b is connected with Ancient Hettit, Romans, Armenians

G-Ydna is connected with Eskenazi Jews- Alans - Georgians and ancient Summerians
G could be Turkish since Ottomans are considered Alans and not Zinyiangs
But not all of G since it is connected with many other nations,

R1a is the only left to belong to Turkish invaders except G1
But what parts (DYS) of R1a?
cause Slavic R1a is not simmilar to Turkish R1a,
find if you are smart what R1a could be Turkish
and how much of it is ancient (like Thracian) and how much is new from Zinyiang desert

then you will realise that you are a fake,
Nobody will take you seriusly,

all marks proves that Ogurs are minority in Turkey,
and majority of Turkey are converted,

FACT

you may laugh as you like, but you are not convincing anyone.
Especially people who can think

 

[marica mandic]

I am glad that Turkish etnic group have founded halogroups. That is big step in knowing his own culture. In Bosnia many people seen Turkey as own culture. They can see DNK of them , and maybe they are also Turkish.

 

[TurkmenCopur]

I am glad that Turkish etnic group have founded halogroups. That is big step in knowing his own culture. In Bosnia many people seen Turkey as own culture. They can see DNK of them , and maybe they are also Turkish.

Yes, Bosniacs are of Turk Origin, and i have seen many Bosniacs who have same culture like Turkiye Turks.

 

[Taranis]

Haplogroup G2a3 has been found in skeletons of the Linear Pottery Culture (5000 BC).

Haplogroup R1a1 has been found in skeletons of the Corded Ware Culture (2600 BC).

Haplogroup I2b2, R1b and R1a1 have been found in skeletons from the Urnfield Culture (1000 BC).

Look it up. That it is all I have to say.

 

[how yes no 2]

Yes, Bosniacs are of Turk Origin, and i have seen many Bosniacs who have same culture like Turkiye Turks.

you mean same religion?
btw. word Bosniac is invented in 1991 to create illusion of muslim population being more native than christians in Bosnia....

ROFL

R1a is the only left to belong to Turkish invaders except G1
But what parts (DYS) of R1a?
cause Slavic R1a is not simmilar to Turkish R1a,
find if you are smart what R1a could be Turkish
and how much of it is ancient (like Thracian) and how much is new from Zinyiang desert

this is very good point...
R1a are steppe people and Turkic culture developed in one part of the steppe people...

in fact thesis about white Croats (Hrvati) = west (white = west in steppe cultures) Hurians = og (turkic for west) Hurs = Oghurs may be reflected in R1a...

while Serbs and Croats have comparable levels of I2a2, Croats have much more R1a.. however this R1a is largely not the same as the one considered to be Slavic marker...

among R1a there is M458 branch that is present in Europe (along with other R1a branches) but rare in Asia. Therefore, this branch is considered marker of Slavic people... (although it is typically only around half of R1a in Czech, Poles, Slovaks..)

In Croatia however, out of 26.9% R1a only 2.8% is M458, which effectively means that only around 10% of Croatian R1a can be classified as Slavic in origin...

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194a.html
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194x4.pdf

Although Magyars are not speakers of non-IE Oghur but of Ugro-Finnic non-IE lanuages, another word used for Magyars/Hungarians in Slavic countries is Ugri, which is same tribal name as Oghur... and looking at R1a spread it is clear that proto-Magyars must have been non-IE speaking R1a people...

in Hungary 4.4% out of 20,4% is M458
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194a.html
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194x4.pdf

while Croats are reach in R1a and reach in non-Slavic R1a (only 10.4% is M458 compared to up to 50% in Poles, Czechs and Slovaks)

Serbs are poor in R1a but have significantly higher ratio of Slavic R1a marker M458

4.8% M-458 out of 13.3% R1a in Bosnian Serbs (thus 36% of their R1a is Slavic marker M458)
3.5% M-458 out of 15.9% R1a in Serbia Serbs (thus 22% of their R1a is Slavic marker M458)

there is another big difference in non-Slavic R1a of Croats and non-Slavic R1a of Serbs...
the one in Serbs is according to Klyosov ancient old - much older than the rest of Euroasia (without south Siberia where R1a is oldest) taken together, while the one in Croats is not older than in the rest of Euroasia... thus, the R1a in Serb settled lands had different migration route and has separated from south Siberia cluster 11650+- 1550 years ago, which is long before we can speak about Turkic or Slavic or Germanic culture...
http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

possible relation of Croatian R1a to Turkic Oghur people also explains why Scythian people are R1a while their culture reminds of Turkic people more than on Slavic people...

 

[Alan]

lets See
E-Ydna is surely not Turkish but Kushetic origin
I-YDNA is Central Balkan origin and is characteristic of Kurds who relatives of Serbians Croats Daci (Bosnians are new to be a nation, although after convert developed culture)
J-YDNA
J1 is semetic mostly middle eastern and Arabian
J2a well it is Anatolian and Greek (Pelasgian-Aegean)
J2a8 (Crete-minor asia) & J2a7 (Trapezus) are considered as Greek
many other J2a are considered Anatolian and Levant ancient
J2b is also considered Greek and Levant

R1b is connected with Ancient Hettit, Romans, Armenians

G-Ydna is connected with Eskenazi Jews- Alans - Georgians and ancient Summerians
G could be Turkish since Ottomans are considered Alans and not Zinyiangs
But not all of G since it is connected with many other nations,

Agreement with most what you wrote. But you have to know J1* is not Semitic. It developed together with J2* in Kurdistan West of the Zagros Mountains. It is very strong in parts of the Northern Caucasus Area. You have to differ between the Semitic and non Semitic J1. Only the Subgroup J1c3 has a link to Beduin Arabs who are mainly J1c3d1. But the other subgroups like J1*, J1e etc. are found in high frequency among Caucasians.

 

[Dalmat]

IDK out of ex. Yu people, Serbs usually have Asian shape of eyes(way, way more than Croats or Bosniaks), especially those from Serbia, plus they are one of the most heterogamous nations in Europe.Result of active assimilation tendencies which is still present in muts like Serbs

Pop Dukljanin , which was native to the area, tells paganians,dukljans (unbaptised slavs), modern Croats and Montenegrin, are Croats.

Bosniak representative in Istanbul was named Hirvat-pasha, while on places with most Croatian archeological findings frequency of I2a2 is highest, and those areas till today are populated by Croats.


I am not going to write novels here, with links that dont work, and end up complete retarded dribble, when looked all together, because it is not in my nature, and because i have nothing to prove like my chinked eyed Serb friend.

 

[how yes no 2]

IDK out of ex. Yu people, Serbs usually have Asian shape of eyes(way, way more than Croats or Bosniaks), especially those from Serbia, plus they are one of the most heterogamous nations in Europe.Result of active assimilation tendencies which is still present in muts like Serbs

hm, not sure you have seen much Serbs in your life... as you seems to be very young and Serbs who lived in Croatia were driven out from Croatia by force in 1995th, perhaps before you were born, in the war crime committed by Croat state led by generals convicted by Hague tribunal...

I'll get back later on slanted eyes remark...

Pop Dukljanin , which was native to the area, tells paganians,dukljans (unbaptised slavs), modern Croats and Montenegrin, are Croats.

priest Dukljanin's chronicle claims such a thing only in posts on Croatian forums
in fact, priest Dukljanin's chronicle claims south Slavs in general to be Goths and it even explains how division of those Goths on Serbs and Croats happened after kingdom was split in two between two sons....read the text of chronicle and not the forum level chit-chats about it... chronicle is disputed by most historians....

Bosniak representative in Istanbul was named Hirvat-pasha, while on places with most Croatian archeological findings frequency of I2a2 is highest, and those areas till today are populated by Croats.

was Hirvat-pasha name of person or title?

I would not be surprised that Turks liked more to use for south Slavs the tribal name of west Oghurs (ak + Hurians = west/white Croats) ...google for text of famous turkish historian Osman Karatay to find out more about turkic roots of proto-Croats... I suggest the following link
http://books.google.nl/books?id=h_Q...PA80#v=onepage&q=Osman Karatay croats&f=false

while obviously proto-Croats were turkic in origin, you claim that proto-Croats were I2a2 people...
but somehow, in Turkey I2a is found in Kurds, and not in turkic settlers...


actually, there was no offical sampling in area around Split which is where I assume one can expect that archeological traces of proto-Croats are to be found. Unofficially, there were rumours that large chunk of people in Split have G2a haplogroup.... if those roumors are true, they might indicate origin from Caucasus and also that proto-Croats were very few among Slavic settlers and previous inhabitant... but from what I have seen so far I think proto-Croats were dominantly R1a people...btw. also in proto-Turks from Turkey dominant could have been G2a and/or R1a haplogroup(s), thogh both haplogroups existed in Anatolia before them as well... other YDNA haplogroups that are present in Turkey are not really spread in areas from which Turks origin...

dunno why Croats are so persistent in trying to link their origin with I2a2 when I2a2 is obviously rather recent admixture to Croatian genetic pool...this is testified by its very localized geographical spread in Croats, by studying detailed family origin of R1a and I2a2 Croatians of today (ask Iapodos for details), by the fact that most I2a2 in Croats clearly origins in south most area of Croatia and from Hercegovina Croats...thus from Paganians or Narentanes who were by neutral history sources claimed to be of Serb origin...

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al...istrando imperio&pg=PA165#v=onepage&q&f=false

I am not going to write novels here, with links that dont work, and end up complete retarded dribble, when looked all together, because it is not in my nature, and because i have nothing to prove like my chinked eyed Serb friend.

I would have no problems if I had slanted eyes, cause only retards value people by shape of eyes or color of skin... but from my experience while skin color is in average somewhat darker in Serbs than in Croats, slanted eyes are much more common in Croats... well, look at two presidents..Croatia ex-president on right I could easily imagine as politician in China or Mongolia... while Serbia president on left has somewhat more Mediterranean appearance...

 

[Dalmat]

hm, not sure you have seen much Serbs in your life... as you seems to be very young and Serbs who lived in Croatia were driven out from Croatia by force in 1995th, perhaps before you were born, in the war crime committed by Croat state led by generals convicted by Hague tribunal...

I'll get back later on slanted eyes remark...



priest Dukljanin's chronicle claims such a thing only in posts on Croatian forums
in fact, priest Dukljanin's chronicle claims south Slavs in general to be Goths and it even explains how division of those Goths on Serbs and Croats happened after kingdom was split in two between two sons....read the text of chronicle and not the forum level chit-chats about it... chronicle is disputed by most historians....




was Hirvat-pasha name of person or title?

I would not be surprised that Turks liked more to use for south Slavs the tribal name of west Oghurs (ak + Hurians = west/white Croats) ...google for text of famous turkish historian Osman Karatay to find out more about turkic roots of proto-Croats... I suggest the following link
http://books.google.nl/books?id=h_Q...PA80#v=onepage&q=Osman Karatay croats&f=false

while obviously proto-Croats were turkic in origin, you claim that proto-Croats were I2a2 people...
but somehow, in Turkey I2a is found in Kurds, and not in turkic settlers...


actually, there was no offical sampling in area around Split which is where I assume one can expect that archeological traces of proto-Croats are to be found. Unofficially, there were rumours that large chunk of people in Split have G2a haplogroup.... if those roumors are true, they might indicate origin from Caucasus and also that proto-Croats were very few among Slavic settlers and previous inhabitant... but from what I have seen so far I think proto-Croats were dominantly R1a people...btw. also in proto-Turks from Turkey dominant could have been G2a and/or R1a haplogroup(s), thogh both haplogroups existed in Anatolia before them as well... other YDNA haplogroups that are present in Turkey are not really spread in areas from which Turks origin...

dunno why Croats are so persistent in trying to link their origin with I2a2 when I2a2 is obviously rather recent admixture to Croatian genetic pool...this is testified by its very localized geographical spread in Croats, by studying detailed family origin of R1a and I2a2 Croatians of today (ask Iapodos for details), by the fact that most I2a2 in Croats clearly origins in south most area of Croatia and from Hercegovina Croats...thus from Paganians or Narentanes who were by neutral history sources claimed to be of Serb origin...

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al...istrando imperio&pg=PA165#v=onepage&q&f=false




I would have no problems if I had slanted eyes, cause only retards value people by shape of eyes or color of skin... but from my experience while skin color is in average somewhat darker in Serbs than in Croats, slanted eyes are much more common in Croats... well, look at two presidents..Croatia ex-president on right I could easily imagine as politician in China or Mongolia... while Serbia president on left has somewhat more Mediterranean appearance...

Lets quote some DAI


-Serbs were a small tribe which settled around Solun(thesallonica)

-They got their name from " serbula" a rags, cloth that designied status of serf-serv-serb, a feudal farmer(which indicates all feudal farmers under Byzantium control were called serbs by them)

-In the fight against Bulgars ,only 50 srebs left of those that were mentioned in migration.

Heterogeneousness of Serfs can vouch for that, its like they are made from people for all neighboring countries.

Mesić is quarter gypsy, and has Serf wife, so that means his children will more gypsy than him.
Plus nobody in Croatia likes him.


Todays Dalmatia and Hercegovina were core of Croatian state, where we spread from.All major cities, of kings, bans, and princes of croatia are from there...




Hags tribunal is a political joke, everyone with IQ over 70 can see that.


Serfs... you have nothing, no culture left behind you, no cities, no real material historical evidence, nothing, and because of that you have this self low value complex you tend to overcompensate with fairytales you write here, like protoserbs were forefathers of all european people...etc.

You live in fantasy world dude...

 

[how yes no 2]

They got their name from " serbula" a rags, cloth that designied status of serf-serv-serb, a feudal farmer(which indicates all feudal farmers under Byzantium control were called serbs by them)

that would still be far better than having tribal name that means blood like Croats and related Huns do...

Hrvati (tribal name of Croats) is related to Slavic word 'Krv' = blood
Huni in iranian languages also means blood
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages

but it is normal that tribal name has inspired same meaning in other people as original Croats were just a Hunish/Turkic tribe....

that Croats were originally Hunish /Turkic tribe is not claimed by me alone... famous historian J.B.Bury explains that Croats were Hunish nation

http://books.google.com/books?id=wD...q=Tuga Buga Bury&pg=PA275#v=onepage&q&f=false

so does the Osman Karatay
http://books.google.com/books?id=h_...y&pg=PA73#v=onepage&q=Croats J.B.Bury&f=false

but I think it is self explainable....
Ughur/Ogur = ak (turkic for west) + Hur = west Hurians = white (white is color used for west in stepe people) Hurians = white Croats....

slavic language got new word for blood (krv) due to ways Hrvati treat enemies, same as iranian languages used Hunish tribal name for word for blood...


I think it is clear why...
world wars 1 and 2 clearly showed that Croats maintained culture that have produced lot of maniacal blood thirsty individuals

there is also old German saying "God save us from hunger, Croats and plaque" dating from times when Croats were used as paid soldiers...

btw. I never will understand why Albanians stick with Croats when
E-V13 Illyrians used to live along Croatian coast... now there is frequency of E-V13 there that is less than in Germany, while there is highest variance of E-V13 in Europe... typical genetic image of massive genocide...

unlike Croats, Serbs didnot kill the previous people when they settled...which is clear from E-V13 around 20% in Serbs and in Montenegro as high as 30%....

Heterogeneousness of Serfs can vouch for that, its like they are made from people for all neighboring countries.

actually, Serbs from Serbia and Serbs from Bosnia and Serbs from Montenegro have surprisingly similar ratio of haplogroups for scenario of being recently made heterogenous nation... it means there is continuity of ethnic group that stretches long time in past...

while Croats have so big regional differences that can be explained only with them being made by extending Croat tribal name and culture of mass killings to subjugated people of Slavic and Serb origin... some claim that most of Croat nation is made up relatively recently in last 150-200 years by renaming catholics from Dalmatia, west Herzegovina and east and central Slavonia to Croats, while real Croats only lived in west most Slavonia... but I think indoctrination of these people into being Croats started much much earlier...

Todays Dalmatia and Hercegovina were core of Croatian state, where we spread from.All major cities, of kings, bans, and princes of croatia are from there...

actually, that is one of modern lies...
search for old maps...

in map from 1501 from Etzlaubs, people in Dalmatia are marked as Winden, which is word used by Germans for Slavs, in particular for Sorbs (Lusatian Serbs) ...while Krabatten are in small area between Sava and Drava rivers that stretches only in west most part of Slavonia which is up to the part where Bosnia begins... this is area of Kajkavian dialect speakers...

now you will understand that real Croats are in fact the ones who you, being from Dalmatia, probably think are not real Croats - somewhat slanted eye people from northwest Croatia... people whose ancestors are Hunish/Turkic tribe of Croats..people from area that has like 0% of I2a2 except for Zagreb that has many settlers from other parts of Croatia... people who speak Kajkavian dialect that is in fact entirely different language closer to Slovenian than to other Croatian dialects... pink on the map of Croatia dialects bellow are in fact real Croats... well not even them are same as proto-Croats, as they mostly origin from Slavs who were ruled over by Turkic/Hunish Croat elite...but there you find most genes of real Croats...

Dalmats are just Slavs who are through accepting catholicism converted to Croats...
and many of them origin from Narentanes who were according to DAI just unbaptized Serbs...

while you probably think areas settled with people who originate from real Croats are marked with blue in the map above, they are in fact marked with pink on the map above...

btw. explanation for other readers: Dalmats are cakavian speakers - area in blue on picture above.... green is area of stokavian speakers which is official dialect in Croatia and in all respects is the same language as Serbian...

Mesić is quarter gypsy, and has Serf wife, so that means his children will more gypsy than him.
Plus nobody in Croatia likes him.

yes, you guys hate him so much that you kept him as president for 10 years
what a way to express hate..

guess he was good to you when he was man with a mission - when he was was last president of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and when his words when wars started were literally something like "my task is well done - Yugoslavia is destroyed. "

btw. he doesnot look like a gypsy... more like typical Croatian face with somewhat more slanted eyes than average.. guess he has more genes of real Croats... of Turkic/Hunnish elite of proto-Croat people

but than again you probably do not know how gypsies look like, as in Croatia Gypsies, Jews and most Serbs were rounded of in concentration camps in world war 2...

Hags tribunal is a political joke, everyone with IQ over 70 can see that.

really? but it was not political while it was sentencing Serb generals?

I find very funny all this pathetic with which Croats are handling their generals being sentenced for war crimes...burning EU flags and similar...never expected so childish reaction...
let's take a look some typical Croatian faces and behaviors during support meetings for general Gotovina...

 

[Dalmat]

Serf, name of your nation is based on social status.Stop with the word games!

Really, you are nothing more then product of Peasant Revolt, Serfs are mix of Cincars from Macedonia, Anatolians, Greeks,Bulgarians and Croats, which spread like bacterial infestation during 500 years of Ottoman.
You speak Croatian, and majority of Serf dialects in Servia are much closer to Bulgarian and Macedonian, than your official dirty Croatian, with inferior grammar.

Your father of "Servian" language, a Cincar with roots from FJROM named V.S.Karadžić, was expeled from servia by servian nobles because of sightly altered Croatian language for serbian schooling.

Serfs