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Thread: Etruscans=Illyrians=Pelasgi //// tuscans=albanians ?????

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    Etruscans=Illyrians=Pelasgi //// tuscans=albanians ?????



    Etruscan Language traducted by an albanian expert in langauges and history



    1-Te urat tan na la rez ula me vaχr.
    Geg. Te uret tan na lan rrez ulë më varr.
    StA. Të urtët tanë na lanë rreze (dritë) poshtë në varr.
    Our nobles left us rays(light) down the grave.
    I nostri nobili ci ha lasciato i raggi (luce) fino alla tomba.


    2-Lautn Velθinaš' eštla, Afunaš slel, eθ ca ru te zan fušle.
    Geg. Eshtnat e te lartit Velthina, Afuna siell, edh ka ru te zan guvn (pusn).
    StA. Eshtrat e të lartit Velthina, Afuna sjell, dhe ka ruajtur të zënë guvën (pusin).
    Great Velthina's bones Afuna brings and has occupied the cave.
    Le ossa del Grande Velthina ,Afuna le porta ed hanno occupato la grotta.


    3-Ri tesn; šte iš Rašneš i pa ama, hen naper χi i Velthinaθuraš arasš.
    Geg. Rri tesh; si te ish etrusk i pa ken, hin naper hi i Velthinas s' art.
    StA. Rri tani; si të ish etrusk i pa qenë, hyn nëpër hijen e Velthinas së artë.
    Rests now; like to be a nonexistent etruscan, enters through the vision of the golden Velthina.
    Ora riposa: come essere un etrusca inesistente, entra attraverso la visione della Velthina dorata.



    4-Peraš cem ul, mlescul.
    Geg. Periasht kem ul, mpleksun.
    StA. Përjashta jemi ulur, mpleksur (bashkë).
    Outside (of the cave) we rest, together.
    Al di fuori (della caverna) ci riposiamo, insieme.


    5-Zu ci enesci epl tu laru Auleši, Velθinaš Arznal clenši.
    Geg. Zu ki prifti epr tu lartu Aulesin, birin erznor te Velthinas.
    StA. Zuri ky prifti epër të lartojë Aulesin, birin erznor të Velthinas.
    The old priest began to laud Aulesi, the successor in honour of Velthina.
    Il vecchio prete cominciò a lodare Aulesi, il successore in onore di Velthina.

    6-Θi i θil šcuna cenu, eplc felic.
    Geg. Thirr e thirr shkun ketu, plak e filik.
    StA. Thirr e thirr shkuan këtu, plak e filik.
    Speaking loudly they came here, the old man and the junior
    Parlando ad alta voce(forte) sono venuti qui, il vecchio e il giovane.



    7-Larθalš, Afuniš clan, θunχul θe falaš.
    Geg. Larthali, djali i Afunas, ndigjon thenie fialsh.
    StA. Larthali, çuni i Afunas, dëgjon thënie fjalësh.
    Larthal, Afunis son, hears words saying
    Larthal, figlio Afunis, ascolta le parole dicendo
    8-Χie m’ fušl e Velθina.
    Geg. Hie m’pus (guv) e Velthinas.
    StA. Hije në pus (guvë) e Velthinas.
    Ghost of Velthina into the cave.
    L'ombra di Velthina nella grotta.

    9-Hin θa cap e, mu ni clet, ma su.
    Geg. Hin ta kap e, mu ni kret, ‘ma su.
    StA. Hyn ta kap e, mu në krye ( kokë), ama s’mund.
    Enters to catch him, just around the head, but can't
    Entra per prenderlo, proprio dietro la testa, ma non può


    10-Naper šranc zlθi i falšti Velθina.
    Geg. Naper shtankie, zanthi i folshte Velthina.
    StA. Nëpër shtangje, zëthi i fliste Velthina.
    While shrinking back, voicedly spoke Velthina
    Mentre contraeva dietro, una voce chiamò Velthina


    11-Hut naper penezš, ma su.
    Geg. Hutet naper pamje, ‘ma su.
    StA. Hudhet nëpër pamje (fantazmë ), ama s’mund.
    Jumps through the vision, but can’t
    Consente di passare attraverso la visione(fantasmi), ma non può


    12- A-c nina! Clel Afuna.
    Geg. A ka noni ! Klith Afuna.
    StA. A ka ndonji ! Klith Afuna.
    Is there any one! Cried Afuna
    C'è qualcuno ! Grido Afuna


    13-Velθina mler zinia.
    Geg. Velthinan e mlon zinia.
    StA. Velthinën e mbulon zija (terri).
    The darkness covered Velthina
    A velthina la copre l'oscurità


    14-Inte ma mer cnl.
    Geg. Ende ma mer nisjen (rrugen).
    StA. Ende ma merr nisjen (rrugën ).
    Again he takes the way
    Nuovamente prende la strada(la via)


    15-Velθina zia, šaten e tesne.
    Geg. Velthina zi, zaten e tesh.
    StA. Velthina zi (terr), si atëherë (përsëri) e tani.
    Velthina under the darkness, now and then.
    Velthina sotto il buio, come prima e nuovamente


    16-E ca Velθinaθuraš ! - θa urah e lutes ne Rašne.
    Geg. E ka Velthina ! - tha urata e lutet ne Rashne.
    StA. E ka Velthina ! – tha urata e lutet në Rashne.
    It belongs to Velthina’s body! Said the prayer and prays on Rashne.
    Esso appartiene al corpo di Velthina! Disse la preghiera e prega in Rashne(etrusco).


    17-Ce i tesn, šte iš Rašneš χimθ, špelθ uta šcuna; Afuna mena hen.
    Geg. Ke i tesh, si te ish Hy Rashnesh, n’shpell ata shkun; Afuna hin mrena.
    StA. Që tani, si të ish Hy Rashnesh, në shpellë ata erdhën; Afuna hyn brenda.
    Just now, like He was Rashnesh god, they came at the cave; Afuna enters in.
    Proprio ora, come se fosse dio Etrusco, giunsero alla grotta; Afuna entra dentro


    18-Naper ci cnl - hare, utu še Velθina šatena.
    Geg. Naper ket rrug – hare, aty she Velthinan zatena.
    StA. Nëpër këtë rruge – hare, aty sheh Velthinan përsëri.
    Through this delight way, there hi sees Velthina again.
    Attraverso questa delizioza strada, li vede Velthina nuovamente.


    19-Zu ci enesci i pa špela ne θi fulumχva.
    Geg. Zu ki prifti e pa shpelln ne thirje yjsh.
    StA. Zu ky prifti e pa shpellën në thirrje yjesh.
    The priest saw the cave on stars crying.
    Il sacerdote ha visto la grotta al richiamo delle stelle.


    20-Špel θi, rene θi.
    Geg. Shpella thirr, rena thirr.
    StA. Shpella thirr, reja thirr.
    The cave cries, the clouds cry
    La grotta la chiamava , le nuovole lo chiamavano.

    21-Ešt a - c Velθina; a - ci lun e tu ru ne, šcu ne Zea.
    Geg. Esht aty ( ja ku) Velthina, ja ku lun e tu ru ne, shku ne Zoti.
    StA. Ja ku është Velthina, ja ku luan e duke na ruajtur ne, shkon në Zoti.
    There is Velthina, there he mooves, watching on us, goes to the God.
    Ecco dov'è Velthina, eccola mentre gioca e ci protegge a noi , sta andando da Dio.


    22-Zu ci enesci: A θu mi cš Afunaš, pe nθ na ama Velθina.
    Geg. Zu ki prifti: A thu mi kush Afunas, pe ne na ishte Velthina.
    StA. Zu ky prifti: A më thotë kush mua Afunas, pe në na ishte Velthina.
    The priest said: Is there any one who tells me, Afunas, if you saw there was Velthina
    Il prete ha detto: C'è uno che mi dice, Afunas, se visto che c'era Velthina



    23-Afunaθur u niei n’ zeri una claθil θunχulθl.
    Geg. Afuna e niu n’ zeri nja klithm qi ndigjon.
    StA. Afuna e njeh n’zëri thirrjen që dëgjon.
    Afuna knew by the voice the cry hearing.
    Afuna conosce dalla voce il richiamo che sente.

    24- Iχ ca ceχa ziχuχe.
    Geg. I ket kena shkrujt.
    StA. Këtë kemi shkruar.
    Just that we have written
    Questo abbiamo scritto




    Etruscan....Albanian..........English

    Te urat........te uret.............nobles.
    Tan.............tan..................our.
    Na la...........na la...............left us.
    Rez.............rrez.................rays.
    Ula..............ul, pošt...........down, under.
    Ul...............ul (v)...............drop, to lower.
    Me..............m', ne.............in, into.
    Vaχr………varr................grave.
    Lautn………(i) lart............high, great.
    Eštla……….eštra..............bones.
    Slel…………siell...............bring.
    Eθ………….edh...............and.
    Ca………….ca.................has.
    Ru…………ru..................watch.
    Zan…………zan...............occupied.
    Fušle.............pus, guv.........1- cave; 2- well (n)
    Ri..................ri, rri..............rest.
    Tesn..............teš.................now.
    Šte iš.............si te iš...........like he was.
    Rasnes...........etrusc............etruscan.
    I pa ama........i pa cen..........nonbeing.
    Hen...............hin.................enter.
    Naper..........naper, neper....through.
    Χi…………..χi, χie..........vision.
    Araš...............art..............golden.
    Peraš..............periašt.......outside.
    Cem ul...........cem ul........seat down.
    Ul..................ul...............down, drop.
    Mlescul..........mplecsun....together.
    Zu..................zu...............began.
    Ci..................ci.................this.
    Enesci............prifti.............priest.
    Epl.................epr.............older.
    Tu..................tu.................to.
    Laru...............lartu.............laud.
    Arznal............erznor.........honest.
    Clenši.............biri.............son.
    Θi…………..Θir, Θirie....cry.
    Θil………….Θirie...........crying.
    Šcuna............Šcun.............went.
    Cenu.............cetu...............here.
    Eplc..............plac...............old man.
    Felic..............felic, filic........junior.
    Clan..............chun, dial.......boy.
    Θunχul……..dengioi..........hear.
    Θe…………Θem..............say, saying.
    Falaš.............fialš................of words.
    Fusl..............pus, guv..........cave, well.
    E...................e.....................and.
    Hin.................hin..................enters.
    Θa………….Θa..................said.
    Cap…………cap................catch.
    E……………e....................and.
    Mu………….mu...................just.
    Ni…………..ne, ni, n'...........in.
    Clet…………cret.................head.
    Ma………….'ma, ama...........but.
    Su…………..su, s'mund.........can't.
    Šranc.............Štanc, Štang.....shrink.
    Zlθi…………zeθi, zešm........voicedly.
    Falšti.............folšti ................spoke.
    Hut................hut, huθ.............jumps.
    Penezš...........pamie................vision, look.
    A-c-nina...........a ca noni........is there anyone.
    Clel...............cliθ.....................cry.
    Mler..............mlon, mbulon......cover.
    Zinia.............zinia, zia...............darkness.
    Inte...............ende.....................again.
    Ma mer.........ma mer................take sth.
    Cnl................nisien, rugen.........way.
    Šaten.............zaten, perseri.......again.
    E...................e............................. .
    E ca...............e ca......................it belongs to.
    Θa…………..Θa......................said.
    Ura………….urata....................priest.
    Lutes……….lutet.......................prays.
    Ne…………..ne........................on.
    Rašne.............zot........................god .
    Ce i tesn.........ce i teš.................just now.
    Ximθ ……….χi, hy...................Lord, god.
    Špelth...........špel........................c ave.
    Uta................ata.........................the y.
    Hare...............hare......................delig ht.
    Utu................aty.........................the re, next to.
    Še..................še, šeh...................sees.
    Pa..................pa.........................saw .
    Fulumχva…...yj, yje.....................stars.
    Rene………..rene, reia................clouds.
    est-a-c……...ešt (ia cu)................there he is.
    A-ci………….ia cu........................there.
    Lun…………lun.............................moo ves.
    Tu…………..tu..............................to .
    Ru…………..ru.............................wat ch.
    Ne…………..ne.............................us
    Šcu..............šcu, šcoj................go
    Zea...............zot...........................go d
    Θu…………..θu, θuaj..................say(secnd. pers. singl.)
    Mi…………..mi, mua......................me
    Cš..................cuš........................ .wh o
    Pe..................pe..........................sa w (secnd. pers. singl.)
    Nθ ………….nese..........................if
    Na ama……..na ište.......................sb/sth was
    Niei………….niu, niohu...................knew
    N’zeri……….n' zeri.........................by the voice
    Una ………...nia, nie.......................one
    Claθil……….cliθm........................... cry (n)
    ...............clai, chiai.....................cry, weep.
    θil............θir, θirie.......................call (n&v)
    Iχ ca……….i cet.............................just that
    Ceχa………..cena, cemi...................have
    Ziχuχe……...šcru,šcruar.................... writte n

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    Why are you posting this in genetics? This is about linguistics!

    In any case, I consider this purported connection very unlikely:

    - For beginners, Albanian is an Indo-European language, whereas Etruscan, for all what we know, isn't (though it has Indo-European influences, and conversely Etruscan had some influences on Indo-European languages, principally Latin, which in turn also had influence on Albanian).

    - Etruscan is attested circa 8th through 1st century BC, while Albanian is attested from 15th century onwards. This is a very long time, which makes it doubtful for cognates in this style to exist: they would invariably have to be subject to sound laws, and I'm not seeing any sound laws here.

    - Etruscan doesn't distinguish between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants (D/T, B/P and G/K). Etruscan does however distinguish between aspirated (Kh, Ph, Th) and unaspirated (K, P, T) stop consonants. Albanian, in contrast, does distinguish between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, and doesn't have aspiration. In addition, Albanian has a number of other phonetic features (a bewildering variety of africate, fricative and nasal sounds) generally absent in Etruscan.

    - Etruscan has four base vowels (a,e,i,u), akin to the Anatolian languages. Albanian distinguishes between seven vowels, a,e,ë,i,o,u,y.

    Also, the thread title does not make any sense: "Etruscans=Illyrians=Pelasgi".

    - The Illyrians were Indo-European peoples of the western Balkans in Antiquity. The Illyrian language is one of the candidates for the ancestor of the Albanian language (the other hypothesis is Dacian/Thracian). Without further going into detail, the term "Pelasgians" is extremely problematic. In any case, equating Etruscans, Illyrians and Pelasgians makes no sense.

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    while this is in the wrong area to post , the connection that the etruscans ( with the eneti and others) would have had to march from anatolia, through thrace, through northern greece, through illyrian lands into Italy.
    We do not believe they sailed into Italy with thousands of ships do we!

    Be this the case, how long would that march have taken ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    while this is in the wrong area to post , the connection that the etruscans ( with the eneti and others) would have had to march from anatolia, through thrace, through northern greece, through illyrian lands into Italy.
    We do not believe they sailed into Italy with thousands of ships do we!

    Be this the case, how long would that march have taken ?
    The Adriatic (V)eneti are completely unrelated with the Etruscans. The Venetian language was clearly an Indo-European language which bears similarities with the Italic, Celtic and Germanic languages. Regarding the statement of "thousands of ships", that wasn't really necessary if you consider how much smaller populations back then were. I think that a migration by sea isn't all that implausible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    while this is in the wrong area to post , the connection that the etruscans ( with the eneti and others) would have had to march from anatolia, through thrace, through northern greece, through illyrian lands into Italy.
    We do not believe they sailed into Italy with thousands of ships do we!
    You are assuming that Etruscan invaders were the majority in Central Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The Adriatic (V)eneti are completely unrelated with the Etruscans. The Venetian language was clearly an Indo-European language which bears similarities with the Italic, Celtic and Germanic languages. Regarding the statement of "thousands of ships", that wasn't really necessary if you consider how much smaller populations back then were. I think that a migration by sea isn't all that implausible.
    While not agreeing or disagreeing with Julia As I do not know, that facts are as i know it, was that both the venetic and etruscan people went to Italy from anatolia. While i agree that populations where small, the facts are that the ancient etruscan lands where the biggest in Italy as they also incorporated lombardia and emilia-romagna. You cannot come by sea with a few hundred men and take all this land. Granted , I would like to see what was the initial etrucans lands at around 1000BC.

    As for venetic language ( and I know modern venetian) , to me I think ( my assumption ) is that in its oldest form it was similar to friuli language ( a rhaetian base) over time, the venetics on the western where firsly etruscanized, then latinized in language , while the eastern venetic land ( beyond the julian alps) where firstly celtinized , and later slavized.
    While friulian is hard for me to understand listening to it being spoken, looking at the written words, a high % is similar to venet ( venetain )

    And I agree with you that old Venetic ( etruscan base symbols) , as per
    Mego Donasto Reitiai
    I donated to Retia ( in English)
    is Mi go donasto a Reitia ( modern Venet) are basically the same.

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    Zanipolo, as far as I know, there is no evidence that the Veneti came from Anatolia. Just because they used the Etruscan alphabet doesn't mean that they were related with the Etruscans. This alphabet was also used to write a number of other languages, including Celtic (Gaulish and Lepontic) and Italic (Oscan, Umbrian) languages, as well as the Raetian language.

    Also, I didn't claim that ancient Venetic and modern Venetian are "basically the same". Venetic "Mego" ("me") is accusative, just like "Mik" in Gothic and "Mich" in German.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Zanipolo, as far as I know, there is no evidence that the Veneti came from Anatolia. Just because they used the Etruscan alphabet doesn't mean that they were related with the Etruscans. This alphabet was also used to write a number of other languages, including Celtic (Gaulish and Lepontic) and Italic (Oscan, Umbrian) languages, as well as the Raetian language.

    Also, I didn't claim that ancient Venetic and modern Venetian are "basically the same". Venetic "Mego" ("me") is accusative, just like "Mik" in Gothic and "Mich" in German.
    I did not say the venetics where related with the etruscans, I said That in my opinion , the original venetic language would have been close to if not the same a friuli ( raetian language) but over time , eastern venetic people where influenced by etruscan language and so slowly adopted this form of etruscan alphabet system.

    Me in venetian is mi, in italian its io, what are you trying to say ?. yes venetians have germanic words like trinkar (to drink) instead of beve in italian, but venetians also have greek words like piron ( fork ) while italian has forchetta. All this means is that vocabalies in the ancient world where never complete and everyone 'borrowed" words from others if needed.

    If the estrucans are not lydians, like most scholars say, then where did they come from ?

    Ancinet greek scholars said the italic lands where only from Umbria ( not including tuscany) to calabria , the rest where barbarians ( illyrians , celts etc etc ) or phoenicians for the sicilians

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I did not say the venetics where related with the etruscans, I said That in my opinion , the original venetic language would have been close to if not the same a friuli ( raetian language) but over time , eastern venetic people where influenced by etruscan language and so slowly adopted this form of etruscan alphabet system.

    Me in venetian is mi, in italian its io, what are you trying to say ?. yes venetians have germanic words like trinkar (to drink) instead of beve in italian, but venetians also have greek words like piron ( fork ) while italian has forchetta. All this means is that vocabalies in the ancient world where never complete and everyone 'borrowed" words from others if needed.
    What I'm trying to say is that the modern Venetian language isn't the same as the ancient (pre-Roman) Venetic language.

    If the estrucans are not lydians, like most scholars say, then where did they come from ?

    Ancinet greek scholars said the italic lands where only from Umbria ( not including tuscany) to calabria , the rest where barbarians ( illyrians , celts etc etc ) or phoenicians for the sicilians
    Let me say this: the Etruscan language is extremely problematic (even people of Antiquity considered the presence of them problematic). There is significant evidence that the Etruscans originated in Anatolia. This is both genetic (there is evidence that Etruscan cattle must have been imported from Anatolia circa 1000-1200 BC, and there was also an article on this posted here in the forum, but I do not have the link right now), and also linguistic, but the Etruscan language in itself is problematic nonetheless.

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    just mishudle,
    Last edited by iapetoc; 19-04-11 at 19:39. Reason: just mishudle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Why are you posting this in genetics? This is about linguistics!

    In any case, I consider this purported connection very unlikely:

    - For beginners, Albanian is an Indo-European language, whereas Etruscan, for all what we know, isn't (though it has Indo-European influences, and conversely Etruscan had some influences on Indo-European languages, principally Latin, which in turn also had influence on Albanian).

    - Etruscan is attested circa 8th through 1st century BC, while Albanian is attested from 15th century onwards. This is a very long time, which makes it doubtful for cognates in this style to exist: they would invariably have to be subject to sound laws, and I'm not seeing any sound laws here.

    - Etruscan doesn't distinguish between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants (D/T, B/P and G/K). Etruscan does however distinguish between aspirated (Kh, Ph, Th) and unaspirated (K, P, T) stop consonants. Albanian, in contrast, does distinguish between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, and doesn't have aspiration. In addition, Albanian has a number of other phonetic features (a bewildering variety of africate, fricative and nasal sounds) generally absent in Etruscan.

    - Etruscan has four base vowels (a,e,i,u), akin to the Anatolian languages. Albanian distinguishes between seven vowels, a,e,ë,i,o,u,y.

    Also, the thread title does not make any sense: "Etruscans=Illyrians=Pelasgi".

    - The Illyrians were Indo-European peoples of the western Balkans in Antiquity. The Illyrian language is one of the candidates for the ancestor of the Albanian language (the other hypothesis is Dacian/Thracian). Without further going into detail, the term "Pelasgians" is extremely problematic. In any case, equating Etruscans, Illyrians and Pelasgians makes no sense.

    Tottaly wrong Taranis,
    I find many Greek words in the above from ancient Homeric,
    in fact Linguistic a lot of the above are Pelasgians,
    I Coyuld Give many simmilar Homeric Words

    The Pyrgi tablets, has many Pelasgic,

    Yes Ancient Illyrians (Not Illyricum) were of the Pelasgic Branch, or that Language are Remnants of Messapian that was Imported in Albanian later,

    The case of Thracian/Daci is in case of Modern Albanians, not ancient Illyrian language

    The difference that Julia is not mentionong is What Illyria she is speaking,
    Cause it is another area Illyria proprie Dicti,
    And Another Area Illyricum


    I quess Julia is speaking about Albania and the remants of Ancient Ilyrian in today


    Yes Etruscans were also Aegean-Anatolians, Before IE Greeks,

    In many of my post in some other I say about Pelasgians, Pelasgians are with Thracians the most Ancient civilizations in Balkans,
    Pelasgians word Remnants In Greece prove connection with Anatolia and Palestine-Phoenicia,
    In fact Today many Greek Linguists are in argument about Alphabet,
    modern thoughts prove that Pelasgians-Minoans found alphabet in City of Avaris create the proto-sinaitic code,
    Although that is still in early search,

    as I said In many of my Post, Don't mess Illyria with Ilyricum,

    I don't know what Julia wants to prove and I can not even ques

    But Taranis Understand that Pelasgians were A big Culture more Big that you can Imagine,

    About Veneti, I never study them so I cant tell,
    But the only I know is that Venneto in Ancient Greek was Γαληνο means Blue,
    in Byzantine Veneti had same meaning, Blue,
    could Veneti be Nation that Later Germans call with eye colour?
    the blue eye people???

    All I WANT TO REMIND TO JULIA IS THAT MODERN ALBANIAN ARE SATEM
    WHILE ANCIENT ILLYRIAN WERE CENTUM


    Yes Julia I have many times told that Albania is Part of ancient Pelasgic culture,
    it was introduced by Cadmus who's tomb was known until Christians Destroy it,
    and even at 400 Bc Lychnitis city was after his family,
    Etruscans were also Pelasgians and are more stronger words not IE,
    cause in your above words you give half of them
    ARE NOT ETRUSCAN BUT IE
    like Kus κους (who) is similar serbian ko or greek Ους-os
    so by comparing IE with IE I can prove that Etruscans were Slavic or Russians,
    But the word simmilar Greek Efi Εφη spoke-told yes it is Pelasgic,
    but many words of what you give are IE
    and Pelasgic are considered that IE speakers but mostly Aegean-Anatolian and Palestinian,
    In fact Pelasgic word that survived can be found Plenty in Ionic Greek Dialect (not Ionian-west, but Ionia minor asia)
    Homer uses plenty of Pelasgian
    like Erebos Pontus, even the word No in Greek is from Pelasgians ουκ uk
    Ανακ-ας high priest or high Ruler etch (Eneski-Priest)


    I don't know if Etruscans were Lydians, But surely were Pelasgians,

    A-c-nina...........a ca noni........is there anyone.
    Clel...............cliθ.....................cry.

    like κλαιω κleo - cry in Greek etc are IE words
    so if you want to tell us that Etruscans were IE .........
    or maybe that imported IE language from Hettit before they move to Thyrrshenia?

    hmmmmmm

    as I already told in many of my post the Pelasgian words in Albanian language are remnants from Illyros invsiaon from Thyrrenian Theba near Athens to ancient Illyria, which that time was probably Celtic, Thracian we know only in dardania had influence, and not reach Illyria even at alexanders time,
    Later Messapic was introduced,
    and medieval Slavic - Romanian/Daci- Turkish.

    the Greek Branch Arbanitika is more clear language, cause has the less Turkish and slavic words than modern Albanian

    κους ε πρεσσε λοντρενε, τι κιεμαι τε μοτρενε,
    κιεμαι simmilar Greek γαμε- not modern κ...
    μοτρενε - μητρις


    Etruscan were not Albanians,
    in fact a big % of modern Albanians are from Transylvania from ALba Lullia,
    the linguistic simmilarity is either IE, or from ancient Pelasgic


    probably julia read Zeus10 bul...t
    who always hide that modern Albanian are satem and are the 3nd branch of Baltic languages
    just for propaganda reasons
    Last edited by iapetoc; 21-04-11 at 05:16.

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    how do we know that this is correct translation?
    the text given here is interesting story about a ghost in a cave, but official theory of linguists is that it is about legal contract...

    The cippus is assumed to be a text dedicating a legal contract between the Etruscan families of Velthina (from Perugia) and Afuna (from Chiusi), regarding the sharing or use of a property upon which there was a tomb belonging to the noble Velthinas.[1][2]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cippus_of_Perugia

    I think this translation is interesting material for further studies, but I would like to emphasize that Etruscan was in ancient history considered to be quite different from any known language... if it was the same language as illyrian that would for sure be known.... thus, Albanian is not likely to be very related to both Illyrian and Etruscan...

    The ancients were aware that Etruscan was an isolate. In the 1st century BC, the Greek historian Dionysius of Halicarnassus stated that the Etruscan language was unlike any other.[5] Bonfante, a leading scholar in the field, says "... it resembles no other language in Europe or elsewhere ...."[1]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language

    However, not being likely is not the same as not being possible... some time ago, I was also intrigued by tribal name of Tosks resembling Tuscany... and there are somewhat ellevated levels of J2 and R1a YDNA haplogroups in both Tuscany and in Tosk Albanians (not in Ghegs)... So, I do not deny possibility for genetical and perhaps even to some extent linguistic relationships between two areas... btw. there are also interesting attempts to link Etruscan to Finno-Ugric languages...

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    I have moved the thread to the Linguistics subforum.

    I personally believe that it is a mistake to classify the Albanian language as purely Indo-European. I think it is originally a language of Old Europe (Neolithic South-East Europe, settled by Near Eastern farmers, so in all likelihood an Afro-Asiatic language), which was later influenced by the overbearing presence of neighbouring Indo-European languages. Garrick pointed out in another thread the similarity between Albanian and Berber languages.

    Taranis made a few noteworthy observations here, but the long time span that separate ancient Etruscan from modern Albanian would effectively allow for such phonetic changes (more vowels, distinction between between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants). Just look how French vowels have diverged from other Romance languages and from Latin. As for the voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, Korean doesn't, while Japanese does, and Japanese undeniably descends in part from Korean. When two languages converge to form a new hybrid language (like English or Japanese) or one language is strongly influenced by another (like French with Frankish), it is common to see major shifts in vowels and/or consonants. Albanian is obviously a hybrid language belonging to two linguistic families (Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European).

    Besides the linguistic aspect, it makes sense that Etruscan and Albanian be related to ancient Near Eastern languages, since both ethnic groups were migrants from Anatolia or the Levant, and both are an admixture mostly of haplogroups J2 and E1b1b. I think we could indeed associate the Pelasgians to these two haplogroups. I believe that R1a1a and R1b1b2a1 came later to Greece, Macedonia and Albania. I personally find it most likely that R1a1a was brought by the Mycenaeans, and R1b1b2a1 by the Sea Peoples, Dorians, Celts and Romans.

    On the other hand I don't think the Illyrians have anything to do with either the Etruscans or the Albanians.
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    It would be interesting to compare Albanian and Etruscan with Tartessian/Turdetanian, Iberian, and perhaps even Basque language. South Portugal and the Mediterranean coast of Spain were heavily settled by Near-Eastern farmers, then recolonised by the Carthaginians. It would make perfect sense that these languages (all unclassified) originated in the Neolithic Near East, and could therefore be related to Etruscan and Albanian.

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    This link is iterresting... a compareson of words.

    http://indo-european-migrations.scie.../IE_table.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have moved the thread to the Linguistics subforum.

    I personally believe that it is a mistake to classify the Albanian language as purely Indo-European. I think it is originally a language of Old Europe (Neolithic South-East Europe, settled by Near Eastern farmers, so in all likelihood an Afro-Asiatic language), which was later influenced by the overbearing presence of neighbouring Indo-European languages. Garrick pointed out in another thread the similarity between Albanian and Berber languages.

    Taranis made a few noteworthy observations here, but the long time span that separate ancient Etruscan from modern Albanian would effectively allow for such phonetic changes (more vowels, distinction between between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants). Just look how French vowels have diverged from other Romance languages and from Latin. As for the voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, Korean doesn't, while Japanese does, and Japanese undeniably descends in part from Korean. When two languages converge to form a new hybrid language (like English or Japanese) or one language is strongly influenced by another (like French with Frankish), it is common to see major shifts in vowels and/or consonants. Albanian is obviously a hybrid language belonging to two linguistic families (Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European).

    Besides the linguistic aspect, it makes sense that Etruscan and Albanian be related to ancient Near Eastern languages, since both ethnic groups were migrants from Anatolia or the Levant, and both are an admixture mostly of haplogroups J2 and E1b1b. I think we could indeed associate the Pelasgians to these two haplogroups. I believe that R1a1a and R1b1b2a1 came later to Greece, Macedonia and Albania. I personally find it most likely that R1a1a was brought by the Mycenaeans, and R1b1b2a1 by the Sea Peoples, Dorians, Celts and Romans.

    On the other hand I don't think the Illyrians have anything to do with either the Etruscans or the Albanians.

    Yes indeed, also find Thoukidides who say Ancient Athens were Thyrrenians (Etruscans before turn to Greek)
    also why modern Greek follow the Ionic dialect (5 vowel + r, r is a vowel to ancient Greek) while ancient Greek had 11 vowel system-sounds.

    and where else in minor asia lived the pelasgians

    about Pelasgian Language you can find information in Thomopoulos book and Joseph Jehunda book

    Aristidi Kollia made an attempt but has many mistakes some on purpose, and many IE are considered Pelasgian

    the case of R1b in Mycenae as you mention Macciamo I can not certify or amplify,
    but the case of an ancient R1a also existed in south Balkans could be true,

    in Genesis we read that Iones (Ιαυαν sons) dwell among Tharseis (Thracians)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have moved the thread to the Linguistics subforum.

    I personally believe that it is a mistake to classify the Albanian language as purely Indo-European. I think it is originally a language of Old Europe (Neolithic South-East Europe, settled by Near Eastern farmers, so in all likelihood an Afro-Asiatic language), which was later influenced by the overbearing presence of neighbouring Indo-European languages. Garrick pointed out in another thread the similarity between Albanian and Berber languages.

    Taranis made a few noteworthy observations here, but the long time span that separate ancient Etruscan from modern Albanian would effectively allow for such phonetic changes (more vowels, distinction between between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants). Just look how French vowels have diverged from other Romance languages and from Latin. As for the voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, Korean doesn't, while Japanese does, and Japanese undeniably descends in part from Korean. When two languages converge to form a new hybrid language (like English or Japanese) or one language is strongly influenced by another (like French with Frankish), it is common to see major shifts in vowels and/or consonants. Albanian is obviously a hybrid language belonging to two linguistic families (Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European).

    Besides the linguistic aspect, it makes sense that Etruscan and Albanian be related to ancient Near Eastern languages, since both ethnic groups were migrants from Anatolia or the Levant, and both are an admixture mostly of haplogroups J2 and E1b1b. I think we could indeed associate the Pelasgians to these two haplogroups. I believe that R1a1a and R1b1b2a1 came later to Greece, Macedonia and Albania. I personally find it most likely that R1a1a was brought by the Mycenaeans, and R1b1b2a1 by the Sea Peoples, Dorians, Celts and Romans.

    On the other hand I don't think the Illyrians have anything to do with either the Etruscans or the Albanians.
    I agree with both of your posts, but I feel albanians who where not illyrian , but took an illyrian tribal name after there immigration , are from Dacia lands prior to romanization.
    In regards to Venetic , I used to feel that it was a part of Illyrian because the North Picene has similar linguistic style, but upon delving further into friulian and Ladin languages, I feel that the venetic language ( excluding the eastern part of the julian alps) has a Raetian association, this would account for over time retaining, its franco ( occitan) and catalan style.
    As we know the Reatian lands ( culture) streched from switzerland to istria.
    Then again , Venice's relation with the Grisons ( as there lands touched each other) could have something to do with it.

    Etruscan seems again an anatolia type of language as well as its admixture mostly of haplogroups J2 and E1b1b. Then again, the venetic plains has J2 while the alpine part is T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Taranis made a few noteworthy observations here, but the long time span that separate ancient Etruscan from modern Albanian would effectively allow for such phonetic changes (more vowels, distinction between between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants). Just look how French vowels have diverged from other Romance languages and from Latin. As for the voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, Korean doesn't, while Japanese does, and Japanese undeniably descends in part from Korean. When two languages converge to form a new hybrid language (like English or Japanese) or one language is strongly influenced by another (like French with Frankish), it is common to see major shifts in vowels and/or consonants. Albanian is obviously a hybrid language belonging to two linguistic families (Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European).
    Maciamo, you definitely have a point that the long time frame would allow for such changes to occur (if you look at how vastly dissimilar for instance Irish and Welsh are from classical Celtic, it's obviously easy to accept that), and you also brought up some excellent examples of languages being strongly influenced by other languages, but what I am critically missing here is the sound correspondence.

    To demonstrate what I mean by such sound correspondences, I'll take a few examples from languages that I personally am a tad more used to, namely mostly Celtic and Germanic languages.

    In the Germanic languages, initial "K" is changed to "H". As an example, we have Breton "Kon", Latin "Canis", Classical Greek "Kynon", but German "Hund" and English "Hound". Or Welsh "Cant", Latin "Centum", Greek "Hekaton", but German "Hundert" and English "Hundred".

    In Brythonic, the initial S of Common Celtic is turned into H, whereas in Gaulish and Goidelic, it is retained. Because of this, the word for 'old' is "Senos" in Gaulish, "Sen" in Old Irish, "Sean" in modern Irish, but "Hen" in both Breton and Welsh. Or Gaulish "Isarnos" (iron), Welsh "Haern", Breton "Houarn".

    In Goidelic, the initial W of Common Celtic is changed to F. Because of this, the words 'anger' and 'alder' are 'Vergos' and 'Vernos' in Gaulish, but 'Ferg' and 'Fern' in Old Irish. In contrast to this, the Brythonic languages change initial W to "Gw". Because of this, the Breton and Welsh word for 'alder' is "Gwern".

    So... basically, if one wants to argue that Etruscan somehow yields Albanian words, one has to demonstrate how these considerable changes are conditioned. If there's no way to explain how such changes, on a regular basis, happen, it's very likely that these apparently similar words are just coincidentially similar. In the list, there are multiple examples how a sound correspondence clearly is not the case:

    - Etruscan θ variably yields Albanian d, dh or θ.

    - Etruscan Z variably yields Albanian š, z

    - Etruscan Š variably yields Albanian s, š, z

    - Etruscan χ variably yields Albanian g, n/m, r

    It should also be noted that the letters are used actually differently, so that sounds do not even actually equate each other:

    - In Etruscan, θ represents an aspirated voiceless alveolar plosive, wheras with the Albanian it's an voiceless dental fricative (actually "θ" is the IPA expression for it, in the actual Albanian variant of the Latin alphabet, it's written as "th").

    - χ in Etruscan is an aspirated voiceless velar plosive, wheras in Albanian "x" (as in, the Albanian variant of the Latin alphabet, not IPA) represents a voiced alveolar affricate.

    One issue I must ask though: where do you see Albanian as a hybrid between IE and Afro-Asiatic? I don't see anything Afro-Asiatic about Albanian, honestly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It would be interesting to compare Albanian and Etruscan with Tartessian/Turdetanian, Iberian, and perhaps even Basque language. South Portugal and the Mediterranean coast of Spain were heavily settled by Near-Eastern farmers, then recolonised by the Carthaginians. It would make perfect sense that these languages (all unclassified) originated in the Neolithic Near East, and could therefore be related to Etruscan and Albanian.
    One interesting aspect I noticed is that the majority of the ancient (that is, those that are non-IE and non-Semitic) languages of the Near East are apparently agglutinative. Some of them are also ergative-absolute (Hurrian-Urartian), and the Sumerian language is also split-ergative. The Basque language is also agglutinative and ergative-absolute. Etruscan, interestingly, has some agglutinative elements, but has also some fusional elements (the latter being more akin to Indo-European languages). The Iberian language, from what is known, was also agglutinative. If there is an underlying relationship here between these languages, other than grammatical structure, it must be a very old one: so old that it's no longer possible to find cognates.

    Regarding the Tartessian language, one issue is clear is that it does not distinguish between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants - a feature in which Tartessian is similar to Etruscan. Unlike Etruscan, Tartessian does not distinguish between aspirated and unaspirated stop consonants, or the aspiration is not conveyed in the Tartessian script. However, the universal trend is that new writing systems tend to accomodate as much as possible to the language they are made for (and as a result, tend to fall short in representing other languages) - it is hence very probable that Tartessian didn't know any aspiration. One peculiar aspect is that the Tartessian language distinguishes between two Rhotic sounds, something that the Iberian language also does (and interestingly, so does modern Basque!). Many linguists have argued that there is a relationship of some sort between Basque and Iberian - however it's not clear if this was Basque borrowing into Iberian, Iberian borrowing into Basque, or the fact that they were indeed part of the same language family. One major difference between Basque/Iberian and Tartessian is that both Basque and Iberian distinguish between voiced/unvoiced stop consonants.

    One interesting aspect, a parallel between Etruscan and Tartessian, is the redunancy in the alphabet in regard for stop consonants:

    Tartessian uses a different letters for K/P/T depending on which vowels are following them (eg K before A, K before E, K before I, K before O and K before U, and so on). This probably was the inspiration for the (very unique) semi-syllabary writing systems which were used later by the Iberians (and later the Celtiberians): when reading Tartessian as an outsider, it sort of made sense to just dump the vowels and treat the letters as Ka/Ke/Ki/Ko/Ku.

    Etruscan does something similar, though nowhere as complete: for the K-series, the letter "C" (derived from Greek Gamma) is used before E and I, the letter "K" (derived from Kappa) is used before A, and the letter Q (derived from early Greek Qoppa, in turn derived from Phoenician Qoph - a letter that the later Greek alphabet dumped) is used before U (note that the Etruscan language lacked "O"). Curiously, Latin adopted these in a way, in particular it kept "C" with the value of "K" and made up a new latter "G" to represent the value previously held by "Gamma" in Greek. Likewise, the convention of writing "U" after "Q", and even we today use this Etruscanism: for example in words like "Question".
    Last edited by Taranis; 20-04-11 at 17:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    As for the voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, Korean doesn't, while Japanese does, and Japanese undeniably descends in part from Korean. When two languages converge to form a new hybrid language (like English or Japanese) or one language is strongly influenced by another (like French with Frankish), it is common to see major shifts in vowels and/or consonants. .

    I offer apologies in advance for going off-topic again.

    I do agree that either Japanese derived from a proto-Korean or that both of them have a common ancestor. An interesting thought on this is which one should be considered a hybrid. Although as far as I know, Korean has retained its own rules and structure, a little over half of Korean vocabulary is of Chinese origin. This is not from any inherent similarity or common origin with Chinese, of course, but from the constant contact and exchange of words. This occured over the period of more than a thousand years of varying degrees of Chinese suzerainty over Korea.
    I am not aware any estimates of how many indigenous existed in Japan at the time of the arrival of proto-Japanese so I could not speculate on how much influence the natives had in changes to the language. However, if we apply the general theory that languages change less and are most conservative at the peripheries of their extent, Japanese could conceivably be considered closer to its origins than is Korean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    While not agreeing or disagreeing with Julia As I do not know, that facts are as i know it, was that both the venetic and etruscan people went to Italy from anatolia. While i agree that populations where small, the facts are that the ancient etruscan lands where the biggest in Italy as they also incorporated lombardia and emilia-romagna. You cannot come by sea with a few hundred men and take all this land. Granted , I would like to see what was the initial etrucans lands at around 1000BC.

    As for venetic language ( and I know modern venetian) , to me I think ( my assumption ) is that in its oldest form it was similar to friuli language ( a rhaetian base) over time, the venetics on the western where firsly etruscanized, then latinized in language , while the eastern venetic land ( beyond the julian alps) where firstly celtinized , and later slavized.
    While friulian is hard for me to understand listening to it being spoken, looking at the written words, a high % is similar to venet ( venetain )

    And I agree with you that old Venetic ( etruscan base symbols) , as per
    Mego Donasto Reitiai
    I donated to Retia ( in English)
    is Mi go donasto a Reitia ( modern Venet) are basically the same.
    lets see the Greek in ancient how will be

    MEGO DONASTO RETIAI

    EGO EDOKA TΙ REITIA
    ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ τηι Ρεiτιa ορ ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ REITΙΗι (ι is underline Dotiki)
    virb Dino Διδ-ω ->Δινω = give in past e-dosa Εδωσα

    the funny is that Reitia-ι takes a ι, υπογεγραμμενη Underlined ι, which is only in giving in Greek,
    and today in modern is suspended

    so Veneti follow part of Greek Grammar?

    where has its roots?

    I mean in English is give
    in German is geben
    in Italian is Dare
    in Albanian is jap
    in Serbian is дати Dati
    in Bulgarian is дава Daba
    in Catalunia is Donar

    seems like clear IE to me the Greco-Roman but is it a proof or an evidence


    Now about 100 men

    how many where sea people?
    how many R1a or R1b in Greece that is not later romano-celtic - latin speaking,
    much of R1b is western brought by Romans, and parts of R1a could be medieval slavic or Turkish.
    how many R1a in south Balkans?
    yet Greeks speak IE and south slavic are connected with Baltic (although I don't agree)
    how many Greeks travel with ships to establsh a colony????? (millions?)
    it is estimated that many Greek colonies were established by less than 2000 men
    Sinope was a small city-colony, but create Trebizond Empire
    Besides Etruscans means same with troy Troia, Tyris-intha (o+y = u in Greek)
    En-troy-cani ->Etroycanoi ->etrucans
    means Trojer people ->tower building people, city walls people, castle people

    I read a book about Delphi oracles, 14 ships estimation of about 50 population was to build Phasis in Georgia
    yes only 700 people, later much more came,

    how many ships had Colombus the 6th fleet? or the spanish armada?







    Now about Albanians I have wrote many posts

    1rst Illyria and Illyricum

    for ancient Greeks Illyria is the area that later known as Illyria proprie Dicti

    Pliny (23–79 AD) writes that the people that formed the nucleus of the Illyrian kingdom were 'Illyrians proper' or Illyrii Proprie Dicti.[17] They were the Taulantii, the Pleraei, the Endirudini, Sasaei, Grabaei and the Labeatae. These later joined to form the Docleatae.

    The roman province of Illyricum



    As you see it is not the same


    about language connections of ancient Illyria

    to understand that we must understand the Pelasgians,
    Pelasgians were Around Aegean and cyprus, probably Anatolian or Levant,

    Cadmus was the first to settle in Continent that was dwell that times by thracians (Greek Theba),

    Cadmus son Illyros invade Illyria who was habited by Celts,

    Pelasgian culture includes Cyclades, Minoan, Troy, pre Greek, Thyrrenian, Ionic-Athenean, Phillistines, Cyprus cultures,

    Pelasgian system was city states, and mainly were Naval people,

    there are 3 names of pre-Greeks the Lellekes the Pelasgians and the Driopes
    the last the Driopes are considered IE

    Pelasgian Gods in Greek Thogony

    Pontus (sea and bottom) later remained as PUdna Πυδνα in Makedonian and Πυθμεν in Greek
    while the IE word is Βυθος Buthos - Bottom
    Iapetos the name of Japeth,
    Erebos the dark (semitic Erebu, Illyrian Erevet)
    Kawir Καβηροι
    Hekate Εκατη from Egyptian Ka = soul
    Hera from Pelasgian godess Eorda or Arda
    Athena from Egyptian Neith
    Oceanus Ωκεανος
    Carnios Kreios Καρνιος Κριος
    Gyges Γυγης Lydian-Anatolian name
    Thaleia Θαλεια

    etc

    Pelasgian toponyms

    Parnassus -> from pharm and -issa
    Pharm in the Pelasgian ment house Parn
    Parnassus means fortified houses

    Thera island (warm island) simmilar Thyrrenian or comes from trojer troyan->tower city



    other Pelasgian words

    neo ναιω = Ι flow, ναιας a ship (remember Noah)
    the IE word in Greek is pleo Πλεω flow->plow-> pleo

    La the stone
    Lavrys -Λαβρυς the hammer to stimulate stones
    Labirynth Λαβιρυνθος the stone mine
    Etruscan LA-pis

    Ζεω and Ζω
    Ζεω means I am warm
    Zω means I am warm as an alive should be

    κωνος the pyramid but also the city
    Ko+no+sso = Knossos (minoan city)
    Mu +ko+no = Mycenae (1 mu = Homo, the city of Humans?? 2 Mu = ομου together the city where all lived together?) or there was a tribe named My (My-cenae , My-ssian, My-Nians or Mi-noans, Moe-ssians, Ma-kedonians,)

    Greek Γοης -Γοησσα (fem) desirable, very pretty, unresistable
    Turkish -anat Guzzell Beautifull, fine
    Italian Gusto

    there are a lot of works that is connecting ancient Illyrian (part of Albanian) with Pelasgian and Homeric (non IE words)

    for the Celtic Branch
    Alb Mire jam = I am Fine
    Eng merry I am (merry christmas etc)

    alb mire dita
    Eng good day

    etc

    But the case of Modern Albanian, is more complex,

    Dienekes and modern linguistic proved that a major devastasion had happened the last 600 years,

    modern Albanians are more Transylvanians
    the tribe of Albocense
    Maximus of Moessia was the first who found them.

    for the record of Gennetics

    The source for the I2a seems to be either the Albanization of people from the West Balkans and/or selection, although it would be difficult to see a massive increase in frequency in only five centuries. The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast;

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07...eshe-from.html


    the above as also the linguistic analysis of Gustav-Mayer, Kaplan Rassuli, as also the Historic events
    proves that Albanians are a new nation

    Historically Illyria is not found elsewhere after Roman occupation,
    later at 1040 we found Arbanites from city of Arbanon (not same with albonopolis)
    and state of arber of Progon moving south from Dalmatia, and state of Alba of Anju
    Anju were Cumans like Hunyadi and had origin city of Alba Lullia in Romania.
    the tribe of albocense from Dacia probably moved the last 600-700 years to Illyria,

    The conection of modern Albanians with other is just in written words,
    modern Albanian is a SATEM language
    while ancient Illyrian were Centum, even the Messapic that was adopted later in Illyria,
    words like Femia are later with messapic, while words like the word for tribe, for relatives is like Greek-Pelasgic Φυλη fili
    the word and simmilarity in written forms of speech is from ancient Illyrian that remained in Modern Albanian language, or from latinization of Moessia at Roman occupation time

    Albocense were considered Thracians,
    Even today Daci/Gaete and south slavic are not yet clear who is the Thracian language,

    Georgiev-Duridanov and Rusu still argue about a latin or a slavic form of ancient Thracian,
    a language that have left many words also in Greek language, (if latin-Dacian,) or is the IE branch of Greek Language (if slavic origin)

    julia be carefull of Albanian Nationalists, they even claim Goliath was Albanian,

    Besides Gorani-Torbesi belong to south slavic population,
    Last edited by iapetoc; 21-04-11 at 06:00.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    La the stone
    Lavrys -Λαβρυς the hammer to stimulate stones
    Labirynth Λαβιρυνθος the stone mine
    Etruscan LA-pis
    Interesting: in modern tuscan dialect the word Lapis is still used it means lead pencil. in standard italian the word used is Matita

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    Strabo dedicates a section of his Geography to the Pelasgians, relating both his own opinions and those of prior writers. Of his own opinions he says:
    As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly.
    He defines Pelasgian Argos as being "between the outlets of the Peneus River and Thermopylae as far as the mountainous country of Pindus and states that it took its name from Pelasgian rule. He includes also the tribes of Epirus as Pelasgians (based on the opinions of "many"). Lesbos is named Pelasgian. Caere was settled by Pelasgians from Thessaly, who called it by its former name, Agylla. Pelasgians also settled around the mouth of the Tiber River in Italy at Pyrgi and a few other settlements under a king, Maleos.



    based on this some Greeks, southern Albanians (Tosk) and people from northern Latium (obviously Etruscans) were pelasgians

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post



    Strabo dedicates a section of his Geography to the Pelasgians, relating both his own opinions and those of prior writers. Of his own opinions he says:
    As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly.
    He defines Pelasgian Argos as being "between the outlets of the Peneus River and Thermopylae as far as the mountainous country of Pindus and states that it took its name from Pelasgian rule. He includes also the tribes of Epirus as Pelasgians (based on the opinions of "many"). Lesbos is named Pelasgian. Caere was settled by Pelasgians from Thessaly, who called it by its former name, Agylla. Pelasgians also settled around the mouth of the Tiber River in Italy at Pyrgi and a few other settlements under a king, Maleos.



    based on this some Greeks, southern Albanians (Tosk) and people from northern Latium (obviously Etruscans) were pelasgians

    yes indeed
    Pelasgians were
    The Greeks Iones
    The Greeks Aeoleis
    The Minoans
    The Cyclades culture
    The ancient Illyrians (Pelasgic +Celts) (today area of albania and parts of Montenegro)
    The Myssians,
    The Troy people
    The Etruscans and all the Thyrrenians
    The Phillistines
    The Cypriots (part of them, the Kittim from Κιττιον the pelasgic name of Cyprus)
    The ancient Atheneans Before Kodros

    the first IE speaking are the Driopes Δρυοπες in Greece, and the most known are the Myceneans after them IE is the main language of Greeks, but many words survived

    the Sesklo and Dimini is a clear archaiological story that explains the coexistance of IE and Pelasgians

    Pelasgian language if you Read Jehunda is a language of minor Asia-Aegean pelago (pelagos->pelasgians) which is more relative to Levant and semitic than IE

    Many connect it with the remnants of Ugarit culture, although I keep me precautions to that

    But I am sure that Phoenicians and Pelasgians are connected

    Etruscans Are not Albanians or Illyrians,
    Neither Illyrians are Etruscans

    BUT ETRUSCANS AND ILLYRIANS SHARE COMMON ANCESTOR

    Besides there is not Bigger prove than Lemnian stele

    A relationship between Lemnian, Etruscan, and Raetian as a Tyrsenian language family is widely accepted due to demonstrations of close connections in vocabulary and grammar.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language


    as an example from stele

    Etruscan Avis or avils =years old
    in Greek pelasgic becomes IE and becomes Εβιωσε a->e + e as end cause virb
    Eviose = lived, years old
    the root is the same the vi = live

    šivai:aviš:sialχviš:marašm:aviš:aumai Etruscan Lemnian

    Sivai avis lived 60 years marasm etc

    marasm also exist in ancient and modern Greek as marasmos, μαρασμος,
    means katatonia - dispair- katathlipsis depress, or no will to live, as also in plant is the stadium before death, marasmos means 1 foot before death, to much old,
    As you see Etruscan are connected with Pelasgian, in fact is dialect of them,
    marasm in Lemnian means dead,


    An example from Arrian

    Alexander full of anger shouts in Barbaric.
    Δεδιωκεται τοις πελλασιν dedioketai tis pellasin = send away the old ones,

    In Greek koine would be
    Δεδιωχται τοις παλαιοις or
    Δεδιωκεται τοις πελλαιοις Dediokete tis pellaiis

    as you see the end -σιν is after pelasgian form while -οις is after Greek form as later entered in Koine,
    the end -σιν -si is used in Etruscan and in Italy even today, in the giving form of nouns

    the veneti
    Mego donasti Retiai
    would be
    Mego donasti Retiasi in pelasgic syntax
    Last edited by iapetoc; 21-04-11 at 05:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    La the stone
    Lavrys -Λαβρυς the hammer to stimulate stones
    Labirynth Λαβιρυνθος the stone mine
    Etruscan LA-pis
    Interesting: in modern tuscan dialect the word Lapis is still used it means lead pencil. in standard italian the word used is Matita
    so, lapis = la+ pis = stone writing

    in serbian
    to write = pisati
    laporac (Лапорац in cyrillic) = marl (english), marne (french), mergel(german and russian)
    http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%...80%D0%B0%D1%86

    Marl or marlstone is a calcium carbonate or lime-rich mud or mudstone which contains variable amounts of clays and aragonite. Marl was originally an old term loosely applied to a variety of materials, most of which occur as loose, earthy deposits consisting chiefly of an intimate mixture of clay and calcium carbonate, formed under freshwater conditions; specifically an earthy substance containing 35-65% clay and 65-35% carbonate.[1]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marl




    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    While not agreeing or disagreeing with Julia As I do not know, that facts are as i know it, was that both the venetic and etruscan people went to Italy from anatolia.
    easy there...
    Anatolia is huge area...
    and Paphlagonia from where Veneti are is in north end, while Lydia from where Etruscans are is in southwest

    north has ellevated R1b and nearby island of I2a in Cappadocia
    (according to Strabo, Veneti completelly moved out from there, so we cannot really expect to see people originating from Veneti there in Paphlagonia.... but we can expect related people in Cappadocia that was settled by Cimmerians who were alies of Veneti and who in early Hebrew worldview correspond to area of Gomer while Veneti correspond to area of Gomer's son Riphath)

    relation to Cimmerians let us expect that Veneti had significant I2a2.....
    Paphlagonia is also hole in R1a spread...which could indicate that Veneti who has displaced completely from there were R1a dominant people...
    combination of R1a and I2a is today typical for Slavs, for whom Jordanes claims to be of Venetic race...Cimmerians who settled Cappadocia are in Strabo's time known as white Syrians, and manuscript of Bavarian geographer claims that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... clearly Zeruiani are same tribal name as Cappadocia's west Syrians of Strabo and as Serians of Seneca who live in Europe, Caspian highlands, south Siberia/north west China and Red sea(?) area


    back to Anatolia...
    north has hole in R1a, elevated R1b and nearby island of I2a in Cappadocia
    south has elevated R1a and E-V13, J1 and J2
    but Lydia has significant I2a and G

    so, in case of Etruscans from Lydia and Veneti from Paphlagonia we speak of genetically different people....except for R1a and perhaps I2a and J2 component

    so if we want to search for words common between Etruscans and ancient Veneti (not same language as modern Venetic), I would expect some of those words to be today shared by people from north Italy with regions of R1a dominant (Slavs), I2a dominant (south Slavs) and J2 dominant (Tosks and Greeks) origins..



    historically, during ice age, Paphlagonia and south of anatolia were even separated by big desert...

    http://www.thefullwiki.org/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA)

    G haplogroup dominant in mid area indicates arrival only after desert became fertile land... spread of I2a and J2 both north and south of desert, while other haplogroups being in one or other area. could indicate I2a and J2 being there before ice age... however J2 shows flat spread disregarding desert which may indicate arrival after desert is gone.... R1b spread was probably there before ice age as it is focused on north area and Caucasus....thus originally there was R1b in north area and I2a in west area .... than ice melted and G, and J2 settled... than E started arriving from middle east... R1a perhaps came with Scythians spreading to India, Iran and middle east or much before that e.g. from Balkan.... J1 was last wave and it happened in historic times


    I2a


    R1a


    R1b


    G


    J2


    J1


    E


    pay attention to Tuscany compared to its environment it has elevated R1a and J2 and G
    similar is in Tosks in Albania who compared to Gegh Albanians have elevated J2 and R1a

    while in Lydia we see clear holes in J2 and R1a... these holes are place from which future Etruscans departed...
    holes were filled by G from central Anatolia, by E-V13 and by J1...J1 is not present in Tuscany thus J1 are latest arrival to region of Anatolia ...quite recent one - in historic times...

    btw. I2a spread doesnot fit in story ... it is present in Lydia
    In Tuscany it is as I2a1 but judging by its spread in south Europe it probably predates Etruscans there
    In Tosks I2a2 seems to be recent admixture as it is not found in Arberesche in Italy...
    so it might have entered Lydia after Etruscans departed... but from where?

    Serdi?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

    G is much stronger in Tuscany than in Tosks, which may indicate that south Albania was settled from Lydia by a wave that was before G merged into Lydia and thus much before times when Etruscans departured from Lydia.. thus, people from area of south Albania may be distantly related to Etruscans, but personally I doubt a level of linguistic relationship that was suggested by Albanian scientist... especially because story he gives has nothing to do with interpretation of text given by people who study Etruscan culture and language...


    While i agree that populations where small, the facts are that the ancient etruscan lands where the biggest in Italy as they also incorporated lombardia and emilia-romagna. You cannot come by sea with a few hundred men and take all this land. Granted , I would like to see what was the initial etrucans lands at around 1000BC.
    why not? all those people of European descent in USA didnot arrive there with airplanes... sure Etruscans movement was much before, but ships were already widely used, and not much less advanced, and distance we speak about is much smaller than crossing Atlantic...


    As for venetic language ( and I know modern venetian) , to me I think ( my assumption ) is that in its oldest form it was similar to friuli language ( a rhaetian base) over time, the venetics on the western where firsly etruscanized, then latinized in language , while the eastern venetic land ( beyond the julian alps) where firstly celtinized , and later slavized.
    could be...

    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    lets see the Greek in ancient how will be

    MEGO DONASTO RETIA

    EGO EDOKA TΙ REITIAS
    ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ τηι Ρεiτιa ορ ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ REITΙΗι (ι is underline Dotiki)
    virb Dino Διδ-ω ->Δινω = give in past e-dosa Εδωσα

    where has its roots?

    I mean in English is give
    in German is geben
    in Italian is Dare
    in Albanian is jap
    in Serbian is дати Dati
    in Bulgarian is дава Daba
    in Catalunia is Donar
    in Serbian
    to give = dati/davati
    to bring = doneti/donositi

    to donate can go as either to give or to bring...
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 21-04-11 at 02:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    I offer apologies in advance for going off-topic again.

    I do agree that either Japanese derived from a proto-Korean or that both of them have a common ancestor. An interesting thought on this is which one should be considered a hybrid. Although as far as I know, Korean has retained its own rules and structure, a little over half of Korean vocabulary is of Chinese origin. This is not from any inherent similarity or common origin with Chinese, of course, but from the constant contact and exchange of words. This occured over the period of more than a thousand years of varying degrees of Chinese suzerainty over Korea.
    I am not aware any estimates of how many indigenous existed in Japan at the time of the arrival of proto-Japanese so I could not speculate on how much influence the natives had in changes to the language. However, if we apply the general theory that languages change less and are most conservative at the peripheries of their extent, Japanese could conceivably be considered closer to its origins than is Korean.
    Japanese language was actually hybridized twice. The first time was when the Yayoi people from Korea "invaded" Japan (circa 500 BCE) and brought agriculture, domestication and bronze technology to the Japanese archipelago. The native Jomon people, who were mostly coastal fishermen and gatherers, spoke dialects distantly related to modern Ainu, a language isolate. There is ample evidence that the Yayoi people mixed with the Jomon genetically, and that the Ainu are a subgroup of the Jomon. Considering all the unique words found in Japanese, many of them vaguely resembling Ainu, it is fairly obvious that ancient Japanese was a hybrid of proto-Korean and Jomon languages.

    The second hybridization came with the adoption of Chinese words along with the Chinese characters (from the 5th century CE onwards). Just like Korean, approximately half of the modern Japanese vocabulary has Chinese roots. In this sense, both are hybrid Sino-Korean languages, but Japanese has a third element from its native Jomon heritage.

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