Etruscans=Illyrians=Pelasgi //// tuscans=albanians ?????

[julia90]

La the stone
Lavrys -Λαβρυς the hammer to stimulate stones
Labirynth Λαβιρυνθος the stone mine
Etruscan LA-pis

Interesting: in modern tuscan dialect the word Lapis is still used it means lead pencil. in standard italian the word used is Matita

 

[julia90]

Strabo dedicates a section of his Geography to the Pelasgians, relating both his own opinions and those of prior writers. Of his own opinions he says:
As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly.
He defines Pelasgian Argos as being "between the outlets of the Peneus River and Thermopylae as far as the mountainous country of Pindus and states that it took its name from Pelasgian rule. He includes also the tribes of Epirus as Pelasgians (based on the opinions of "many"). Lesbos is named Pelasgian. Caere was settled by Pelasgians from Thessaly, who called it by its former name, Agylla. Pelasgians also settled around the mouth of the Tiber River in Italy at Pyrgi and a few other settlements under a king, Maleos.



based on this some Greeks, southern Albanians (Tosk) and people from northern Latium (obviously Etruscans) were pelasgians

 

[iapetoc]

Strabo dedicates a section of his Geography to the Pelasgians, relating both his own opinions and those of prior writers. Of his own opinions he says:
As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly.
He defines Pelasgian Argos as being "between the outlets of the Peneus River and Thermopylae as far as the mountainous country of Pindus and states that it took its name from Pelasgian rule. He includes also the tribes of Epirus as Pelasgians (based on the opinions of "many"). Lesbos is named Pelasgian. Caere was settled by Pelasgians from Thessaly, who called it by its former name, Agylla. Pelasgians also settled around the mouth of the Tiber River in Italy at Pyrgi and a few other settlements under a king, Maleos.



based on this some Greeks, southern Albanians (Tosk) and people from northern Latium (obviously Etruscans) were pelasgians

yes indeed
Pelasgians were
The Greeks Iones
The Greeks Aeoleis
The Minoans
The Cyclades culture
The ancient Illyrians (Pelasgic +Celts) (today area of albania and parts of Montenegro)
The Myssians,
The Troy people
The Etruscans and all the Thyrrenians
The Phillistines
The Cypriots (part of them, the Kittim from Κιττιον the pelasgic name of Cyprus)
The ancient Atheneans Before Kodros

the first IE speaking are the Driopes Δρυοπες in Greece, and the most known are the Myceneans after them IE is the main language of Greeks, but many words survived

the Sesklo and Dimini is a clear archaiological story that explains the coexistance of IE and Pelasgians

Pelasgian language if you Read Jehunda is a language of minor Asia-Aegean pelago (pelagos->pelasgians) which is more relative to Levant and semitic than IE

Many connect it with the remnants of Ugarit culture, although I keep me precautions to that

But I am sure that Phoenicians and Pelasgians are connected

Etruscans Are not Albanians or Illyrians,
Neither Illyrians are Etruscans

BUT ETRUSCANS AND ILLYRIANS SHARE COMMON ANCESTOR

Besides there is not Bigger prove than Lemnian stele

A relationship between Lemnian, Etruscan, and Raetian as a Tyrsenian language family is widely accepted due to demonstrations of close connections in vocabulary and grammar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language


as an example from stele

Etruscan Avis or avils =years old
in Greek pelasgic becomes IE and becomes Εβιωσε a->e + e as end cause virb
Eviose = lived, years old
the root is the same the vi = live

šivai:aviš:sialχviš:marašm:aviš:aumai Etruscan Lemnian

Sivai avis lived 60 years marasm etc

marasm also exist in ancient and modern Greek as marasmos, μαρασμος,
means katatonia - dispair- katathlipsis depress, or no will to live, as also in plant is the stadium before death, marasmos means 1 foot before death, to much old,
As you see Etruscan are connected with Pelasgian, in fact is dialect of them,
marasm in Lemnian means dead,


An example from Arrian

Alexander full of anger shouts in Barbaric.
Δεδιωκεται τοις πελλασιν dedioketai tis pellasin = send away the old ones,

In Greek koine would be
Δεδιωχται τοις παλαιοις or
Δεδιωκεται τοις πελλαιοις Dediokete tis pellaiis

as you see the end -σιν is after pelasgian form while -οις is after Greek form as later entered in Koine,
the end -σιν -si is used in Etruscan and in Italy even today, in the giving form of nouns

the veneti
Mego donasti Retiai
would be
Mego donasti Retiasi in pelasgic syntax

 

[how yes no 2]

La the stone
Lavrys -Λαβρυς the hammer to stimulate stones
Labirynth Λαβιρυνθος the stone mine
Etruscan LA-pis

Interesting: in modern tuscan dialect the word Lapis is still used it means lead pencil. in standard italian the word used is Matita

so, lapis = la+ pis = stone writing

in serbian
to write = pisati
laporac (Лапорац in cyrillic) = marl (english), marne (french), mergel(german and russian)
http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Лапорац

Marl or marlstone is a calcium carbonate or lime-rich mud or mudstone which contains variable amounts of clays and aragonite. Marl was originally an old term loosely applied to a variety of materials, most of which occur as loose, earthy deposits consisting chiefly of an intimate mixture of clay and calcium carbonate, formed under freshwater conditions; specifically an earthy substance containing 35-65% clay and 65-35% carbonate.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marl

While not agreeing or disagreeing with Julia As I do not know, that facts are as i know it, was that both the venetic and etruscan people went to Italy from anatolia.

easy there...
Anatolia is huge area...
and Paphlagonia from where Veneti are is in north end, while Lydia from where Etruscans are is in southwest

north has ellevated R1b and nearby island of I2a in Cappadocia
(according to Strabo, Veneti completelly moved out from there, so we cannot really expect to see people originating from Veneti there in Paphlagonia.... but we can expect related people in Cappadocia that was settled by Cimmerians who were alies of Veneti and who in early Hebrew worldview correspond to area of Gomer while Veneti correspond to area of Gomer's son Riphath)

relation to Cimmerians let us expect that Veneti had significant I2a2.....
Paphlagonia is also hole in R1a spread...which could indicate that Veneti who has displaced completely from there were R1a dominant people...
combination of R1a and I2a is today typical for Slavs, for whom Jordanes claims to be of Venetic race...Cimmerians who settled Cappadocia are in Strabo's time known as white Syrians, and manuscript of Bavarian geographer claims that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... clearly Zeruiani are same tribal name as Cappadocia's west Syrians of Strabo and as Serians of Seneca who live in Europe, Caspian highlands, south Siberia/north west China and Red sea(?) area


back to Anatolia...
north has hole in R1a, elevated R1b and nearby island of I2a in Cappadocia
south has elevated R1a and E-V13, J1 and J2
but Lydia has significant I2a and G

so, in case of Etruscans from Lydia and Veneti from Paphlagonia we speak of genetically different people....except for R1a and perhaps I2a and J2 component

so if we want to search for words common between Etruscans and ancient Veneti (not same language as modern Venetic), I would expect some of those words to be today shared by people from north Italy with regions of R1a dominant (Slavs), I2a dominant (south Slavs) and J2 dominant (Tosks and Greeks) origins..



historically, during ice age, Paphlagonia and south of anatolia were even separated by big desert...

http://www.thefullwiki.org/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA)

G haplogroup dominant in mid area indicates arrival only after desert became fertile land... spread of I2a and J2 both north and south of desert, while other haplogroups being in one or other area. could indicate I2a and J2 being there before ice age... however J2 shows flat spread disregarding desert which may indicate arrival after desert is gone.... R1b spread was probably there before ice age as it is focused on north area and Caucasus....thus originally there was R1b in north area and I2a in west area .... than ice melted and G, and J2 settled... than E started arriving from middle east... R1a perhaps came with Scythians spreading to India, Iran and middle east or much before that e.g. from Balkan.... J1 was last wave and it happened in historic times


I2a

R1a

R1b

G

J2

J1

E

pay attention to Tuscany compared to its environment it has elevated R1a and J2 and G
similar is in Tosks in Albania who compared to Gegh Albanians have elevated J2 and R1a

while in Lydia we see clear holes in J2 and R1a... these holes are place from which future Etruscans departed...
holes were filled by G from central Anatolia, by E-V13 and by J1...J1 is not present in Tuscany thus J1 are latest arrival to region of Anatolia ...quite recent one - in historic times...

btw. I2a spread doesnot fit in story ... it is present in Lydia
In Tuscany it is as I2a1 but judging by its spread in south Europe it probably predates Etruscans there
In Tosks I2a2 seems to be recent admixture as it is not found in Arberesche in Italy...
so it might have entered Lydia after Etruscans departed... but from where?

Serdi?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

G is much stronger in Tuscany than in Tosks, which may indicate that south Albania was settled from Lydia by a wave that was before G merged into Lydia and thus much before times when Etruscans departured from Lydia.. thus, people from area of south Albania may be distantly related to Etruscans, but personally I doubt a level of linguistic relationship that was suggested by Albanian scientist... especially because story he gives has nothing to do with interpretation of text given by people who study Etruscan culture and language...

While i agree that populations where small, the facts are that the ancient etruscan lands where the biggest in Italy as they also incorporated lombardia and emilia-romagna. You cannot come by sea with a few hundred men and take all this land. Granted , I would like to see what was the initial etrucans lands at around 1000BC.

why not? all those people of European descent in USA didnot arrive there with airplanes... sure Etruscans movement was much before, but ships were already widely used, and not much less advanced, and distance we speak about is much smaller than crossing Atlantic...

As for venetic language ( and I know modern venetian) , to me I think ( my assumption ) is that in its oldest form it was similar to friuli language ( a rhaetian base) over time, the venetics on the western where firsly etruscanized, then latinized in language , while the eastern venetic land ( beyond the julian alps) where firstly celtinized , and later slavized.

could be...

lets see the Greek in ancient how will be

MEGO DONASTO RETIA

EGO EDOKA TΙ REITIAS
ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ τηι Ρεiτιa ορ ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ REITΙΗι (ι is underline Dotiki)
virb Dino Διδ-ω ->Δινω = give in past e-dosa Εδωσα

where has its roots?

I mean in English is give
in German is geben
in Italian is Dare
in Albanian is jap
in Serbian is дати Dati
in Bulgarian is дава Daba
in Catalunia is Donar

in Serbian
to give = dati/davati
to bring = doneti/donositi

to donate can go as either to give or to bring...

 

[Maciamo]

I offer apologies in advance for going off-topic again.

I do agree that either Japanese derived from a proto-Korean or that both of them have a common ancestor. An interesting thought on this is which one should be considered a hybrid. Although as far as I know, Korean has retained its own rules and structure, a little over half of Korean vocabulary is of Chinese origin. This is not from any inherent similarity or common origin with Chinese, of course, but from the constant contact and exchange of words. This occured over the period of more than a thousand years of varying degrees of Chinese suzerainty over Korea.
I am not aware any estimates of how many indigenous existed in Japan at the time of the arrival of proto-Japanese so I could not speculate on how much influence the natives had in changes to the language. However, if we apply the general theory that languages change less and are most conservative at the peripheries of their extent, Japanese could conceivably be considered closer to its origins than is Korean.

Japanese language was actually hybridized twice. The first time was when the Yayoi people from Korea "invaded" Japan (circa 500 BCE) and brought agriculture, domestication and bronze technology to the Japanese archipelago. The native Jomon people, who were mostly coastal fishermen and gatherers, spoke dialects distantly related to modern Ainu, a language isolate. There is ample evidence that the Yayoi people mixed with the Jomon genetically, and that the Ainu are a subgroup of the Jomon. Considering all the unique words found in Japanese, many of them vaguely resembling Ainu, it is fairly obvious that ancient Japanese was a hybrid of proto-Korean and Jomon languages.

The second hybridization came with the adoption of Chinese words along with the Chinese characters (from the 5th century CE onwards). Just like Korean, approximately half of the modern Japanese vocabulary has Chinese roots. In this sense, both are hybrid Sino-Korean languages, but Japanese has a third element from its native Jomon heritage.

 

[Maciamo]

So... basically, if one wants to argue that Etruscan somehow yields Albanian words, one has to demonstrate how these considerable changes are conditioned. If there's no way to explain how such changes, on a regular basis, happen, it's very likely that these apparently similar words are just coincidentially similar. In the list, there are multiple examples how a sound correspondence clearly is not the case:

- Etruscan θ variably yields Albanian d, dh or θ.

- Etruscan Z variably yields Albanian š, z

- Etruscan Š variably yields Albanian s, š, z

- Etruscan χ variably yields Albanian g, n/m, r

It should also be noted that the letters are used actually differently, so that sounds do not even actually equate each other:

- In Etruscan, θ represents an aspirated voiceless alveolar plosive, wheras with the Albanian it's an voiceless dental fricative (actually "θ" is the IPA expression for it, in the actual Albanian variant of the Latin alphabet, it's written as "th").

- χ in Etruscan is an aspirated voiceless velar plosive, wheras in Albanian "x" (as in, the Albanian variant of the Latin alphabet, not IPA) represents a voiced alveolar affricate.

One important question is, how certain can we be of the exact pronunciation of extinct ancient languages which nobody alive today has ever heard ? The theory is nice, but what if it is mistaken ? It is based on a lot of assumptions.

One issue I must ask though: where do you see Albanian as a hybrid between IE and Afro-Asiatic? I don't see anything Afro-Asiatic about Albanian, honestly.

One interesting aspect I noticed is that the majority of the ancient (that is, those that are non-IE and non-Semitic) languages of the Near East are apparently agglutinative. Some of them are also ergative-absolute (Hurrian-Urartian), and the Sumerian language is also split-ergative. The Basque language is also agglutinative and ergative-absolute. Etruscan, interestingly, has some agglutinative elements, but has also some fusional elements (the latter being more akin to Indo-European languages). The Iberian language, from what is known, was also agglutinative. If there is an underlying relationship here between these languages, other than grammatical structure, it must be a very old one: so old that it's no longer possible to find cognates.

I admit not being an expert on Afro-Asiatic, Hurro-Urartian or Caucasian languages. Would you rather say that Basque, Iberian, Etruscan and/or Albanian are closer to Hurro-Urartian languages ? The geography fits, since Hurro-Urartian languages were spoken in Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, the region from where agriculture and domestication expanded towards (southern) Europe. The identification last year of haplogroup F and G2a among LBK skeletons points at a Caucasian origin of the Danubian spread of agriculture, but these could have been Hurro-Urartian speakers too. Basque might be a descendant of the Neolithic language spoken by these Caucasian/Anatolian farmers.

 

[zanipolo]

easy there...
Anatolia is huge area...
and Paphlagonia from where Veneti are is in north end, while Lydia from where Etruscans are is in southwest

north has ellevated R1b and nearby island of I2a in Cappadocia
(according to Strabo, Veneti completelly moved out from there, so we cannot really expect to see people originating from Veneti there in Paphlagonia.... but we can expect related people in Cappadocia that was settled by Cimmerians who were alies of Veneti and who in early Hebrew worldview correspond to area of Gomer while Veneti correspond to area of Gomer's son Riphath)

relation to Cimmerians let us expect that Veneti had significant I2a2.....
Paphlagonia is also hole in R1a spread...which could indicate that Veneti who has displaced completely from there were R1a dominant people...
combination of R1a and I2a is today typical for Slavs, for whom Jordanes claims to be of Venetic race...Cimmerians who settled Cappadocia are in Strabo's time known as white Syrians, and manuscript of Bavarian geographer claims that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... clearly Zeruiani are same tribal name as Cappadocia's west Syrians of Strabo and as Serians of Seneca who live in Europe, Caspian highlands, south Siberia/north west China and Red sea(?) area


back to Anatolia...
north has hole in R1a, elevated R1b and nearby island of I2a in Cappadocia
south has elevated R1a and E-V13, J1 and J2
but Lydia has significant I2a and G

so, in case of Etruscans from Lydia and Veneti from Paphlagonia we speak of genetically different people....except for R1a and perhaps I2a and J2 component

so if we want to search for words common between Etruscans and ancient Veneti (not same language as modern Venetic), I would expect some of those words to be today shared by people from north Italy with regions of R1a dominant (Slavs), I2a dominant (south Slavs) and J2 dominant (Tosks and Greeks) origins..

Are you saying that there where Slavs in Italy in 1000BC ?

In regards to the Eneti , veneti of Homer, I found no tribes by this name under the Paphlagonia tribes, all I found was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsun

A city which was named Amisus, but before that it was Enete

Since this town is much further east than Paphlagonia lands ( which are near modern day Sinope), then we can say it was pontic lands ( pontus) . This is clearly hittite lands at the time of the Trojan wars.

To conclude , these people never returned and it was stated that they crossed into thrace , and then into illyria.

The void in Haplogroup you say would be related to the amazons of the same area ( who also went to the trojan wars).

I agree 100% with you that the struscans and Veneti of anatolia are completly different people

 

[Taranis]

One important question is, how certain can we be of the exact pronunciation of extinct ancient languages which nobody alive today has ever heard ? The theory is nice, but what if it is mistaken ? It is based on a lot of assumptions.

Well, regarding reconstructing the pronounciation of ancient languages, we obviously just do not know for certain, but what can give us reasonably reliable clues about pronounciation is how names were written in other writing systems (for example, Etruscan names written in Latin or Greek alphabets). For example, the ancient Greek language knew aspirated stop consonants too, and the Latinization of Greek names and words conveys that (Chaos, Philosophy, Thalassa).

Having said that, as evident in Greek, the shift from an aspirated voiceless alveolar plosive towards a voiceless dental fricative isn't a problem. What I find far more problematic is the lack of sound correspondence (it's essentially the same criticism I have with the identification of Tartessian as a Celtic language - other than the fact that the iventory of the Tartessian alphabet is utterly un-Celtic/un-Indo-European). If it's impossible to demonstrate how these changes are conditioned, with all likelihood the apparent cognates are just randomly similar.

And mind you, this isn't a trivial affair. The concept of sound laws has been a fundamental concept in linguistics for over 130 years. You cannot just overthrow it suddenly to prove a certain language is related to another language.

I admit not being an expert on Afro-Asiatic, Hurro-Urartian or Caucasian languages. Would you rather say that Basque, Iberian, Etruscan and/or Albanian are closer to Hurro-Urartian languages ? The geography fits, since Hurro-Urartian languages were spoken in Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, the region from where agriculture and domestication expanded towards (southern) Europe. The identification last year of haplogroup F and G2a among LBK skeletons points at a Caucasian origin of the Danubian spread of agriculture, but these could have been Hurro-Urartian speakers too. Basque might be a descendant of the Neolithic language spoken by these Caucasian/Anatolian farmers.

Well, given how these languages has little in common other than general grammatical structure (at least, to my knowledge), it's a bit problematic to suggest that. On the flip side, the similarities are very suggestive. This brings one to the question of how much time it does take for languages who were originally part of the same language family are no longer recognizable as such? Given how it's still recognizable with Afro-Asiatic (the oldest would be Old Egyptian and Akkadian from early and mid 3rd millennium BC, respectively) and Indo-European (the oldest would be Hittite from mid-1st millennium BC - with Sanskrit and Mycenean Greek only a few centuries younger), the time spans we talk about must be even greater.

Another critical problem (which really makes comparison highly problematic) is lack of contemporarity: Basque is essentially a modern language, and Aquitanian (it's ancestor language in Antiquity) is basically known only from onomastic evidence. Etruscan, Iberian and Urartian are languages of the iron age, Hurrian is a language of the bronze age, Sumerian is the oldest attested language in the world. Almost none of these languages are contemporary. This also makes it very problematic comparing any of these languages with the various modern Caucasian languages (since there are some similarities in grammatical structures). The problem, like with Basque, is that the Caucasian languages are essentially modern, and we have attestation of them in Classical Antiquity, or the Bronze Age to properly compare them with those ancient languages. Maybe we would see actual cognates between say Basque and Sumerian if we had the ancestor language of Basque attested from the early 3rd millennium BC, but we obviously don't.

To get back to Etruscan, one peculiar aspect I noticed about the Etruscan writing is that it exhibits tendencies towards an Abjad (that is, a consonant alphabet like Phoenician, Hebrew or Arabic). This however isn't done on a completely regular basis (since the Etruscan alphabet clearly had AEIU), but instead seems to be only done for short vowels - with long vowels still being represented. Example would be the word "lautn" (freeman).

One major difference in grammatical structure is that Etruscan, unlike Basque or Hurrian-Urartian was an Accusative language (similar to the Indo-European and Semitic language families) and not Ergative. What is meant by that, bluntly put, is that in ergative languages, the verb refers to the object of the sentence rather than the subject, whereas in accusative languages the verb refers to the subject. Sumerian, interestingly, was a split-ergative language, having an accusative case for 1st and 2nd person, but behaving like an ergative language otherwise.

Otherwise, Etruscan has a number of borrowings from both Indo-European such as "Θewru" (Bull) (compare Latin "Taurus", Gaulish "Tarvos"), but also Semitic (most probably Phoenician), such as "Τaliθa" (girl). Tentatively, one must ask, is it possible that Etruscan was some kind of Creole language?

 

[zanipolo]

@Taranis

I saw a 2008 book called "The ancient languages of Europe by Roger Woodard" , I briefly looke dat it and it seems a book you need.

BTW, I wish people would stop referring to catalan as a Iberian language, they have never been Iberian both culturally and linguistically. Itys only politically that there language is bracketed there.
Its like trying to say that gascon is french

 

[Maciamo]

Well, given how these languages has little in common other than general grammatical structure (at least, to my knowledge), it's a bit problematic to suggest that. On the flip side, the similarities are very suggestive. This brings one to the question of how much time it does take for languages who were originally part of the same language family are no longer recognizable as such? Given how it's still recognizable with Afro-Asiatic (the oldest would be Old Egyptian and Akkadian from early and mid 3rd millennium BC, respectively) and Indo-European (the oldest would be Hittite from mid-1st millennium BC - with Sanskrit and Mycenean Greek only a few centuries younger), the time spans we talk about must be even greater.

Another critical problem (which really makes comparison highly problematic) is lack of contemporarity: Basque is essentially a modern language, and Aquitanian (it's ancestor language in Antiquity) is basically known only from onomastic evidence. Etruscan, Iberian and Urartian are languages of the iron age, Hurrian is a language of the bronze age, Sumerian is the oldest attested language in the world. Almost none of these languages are contemporary. This also makes it very problematic comparing any of these languages with the various modern Caucasian languages (since there are some similarities in grammatical structures). The problem, like with Basque, is that the Caucasian languages are essentially modern, and we have attestation of them in Classical Antiquity, or the Bronze Age to properly compare them with those ancient languages. Maybe we would see actual cognates between say Basque and Sumerian if we had the ancestor language of Basque attested from the early 3rd millennium BC, but we obviously don't.

If there is a common ancestor to all these languages, it goes back to the dawn of agriculture, 11,500 years ago. When one sees how much languages can evolve in "only" two thousand years, it is only natural to find only fragmentary similarities between unwritten languages completely isolated from each others for perhaps 5,000 or 6,000 years (like the ancestors of Iberian, Etruscan and Albanian must have been circa 1000 BCE). Furthermore, I expect that most "migrant languages" absorb a certain amount of vocabulary and grammatical features from the local languages in the region where the settle.

Otherwise, Etruscan has a number of borrowings from both Indo-European such as "Θewru" (Bull) (compare Latin "Taurus", Gaulish "Tarvos"), but also Semitic (most probably Phoenician), such as "Τaliθa" (girl). Tentatively, one must ask, is it possible that Etruscan was some kind of Creole language?

I am convinced that Etruscan was a hybrid/creole language. Whatever the exact origin of Etruscan people in the Near East, genetics show that they intermingled heavily with the local people of Italy (even prior to the Celtic migration across the Alps and the Roman expansion within Italy). Nowadays, DNA shows that Tuscans still have more Near Eastern ancestry than northern Italians, but they are predominantly European. As you mentioned it, Etruscan displayed both characteristics of Semitic and Indo-European languages. This corroborates what genetics already suggested. The Etruscans were surely an admixture of Semitic (high percentage of J2 with some J1 and E1b1b) and Italo-Celtic people (high frequency of R1b1b2a1).

 

[how yes no 2]

Are you saying that there where Slavs in Italy in 1000BC ?

No, I do not...there are no clues about level of relation of ancient Venetic language to Slavic language, so I cannot make any claims regarding that....

in life things are never black or white... in ethnogenesis of nations we can only speak of related or partially related constitutive elements for some nations....

what I claim is that the claim of Jordanes that early Slavs were of Venetic origin has supporting arguments in YDNA....

In regards to the Eneti , veneti of Homer, I found no tribes by this name under the Paphlagonia tribes, all I found was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsun

A city which was named Amisus, but before that it was Enete

Since this town is much further east than Paphlagonia lands ( which are near modern day Sinope), then we can say it was pontic lands ( pontus) . This is clearly hittite lands at the time of the Trojan wars.

To conclude , these people never returned and it was stated that they crossed into thrace , and then into illyria.

exactly, that is what Strabo says as well...
they left Paphlagonia and never returned..

The void in Haplogroup you say would be related to the amazons of the same area ( who also went to the trojan wars).

actually, I cannot recall me claiming anything like that
can you find a post about it?
only texts where I mention Amazones and R1a is that Sarmatians were probably R1a dominant people as they in myth origin from Scythians (for which ancient DNA suggests R1a) and Amazones...
I also mentioned Amazones as one of Trojan war participants but didnot in any way relate them to R1a....

I agree 100% with you that the struscans and Veneti of anatolia are completly different people

it seems they had quite different genetics, and we know that they had quite different languages (one was IE and the other was not)......

 

[zanipolo]

No, I do not...there are no clues about level of relation of ancient Venetic language to Slavic language, so I cannot make any claims regarding that....

in life things are never black or white... in ethnogenesis of nations we can only speak of related or partially related constitutive elements for some nations....

what I claim is that the claim of Jordanes that early Slavs were of Venetic origin has supporting arguments in YDNA....

Well, then the venetic culture is only in the adriatic area and since this culture disappeared as all scholars have said before the year of 60BC, then Jordanes was talking about a differently named culture the Venethi . This is word association by Jordanes in which I can present this "word association" as well
http://www.tribwatch.com/idun.htm

exactly, that is what Strabo says as well...
they left Paphlagonia and never returned..

The problem is that the area where the Enete where named from was no Paphlagonia, it was its neighbour to the east. There are no eneti in the tribal names of the Paphlagonia. The termonology of homer script and anyone else was either missread or misinterpreted.

The Paphlagonia where only these the Aegialus, Cromna, Cytorus, Erythini, and Sesamus.
Paphlagonia was located between Bithynia to the west and Pontus to the east.

 

[Taranis]

@Taranis

I saw a 2008 book called "The ancient languages of Europe by Roger Woodard" , I briefly looke dat it and it seems a book you need.

BTW, I wish people would stop referring to catalan as a Iberian language, they have never been Iberian both culturally and linguistically. Itys only politically that there language is bracketed there.
Its like trying to say that gascon is french

By "Iberian", I am refering to the ancient non-IE language that in Antiquity was spoken in an arc stretching roughly from eastern Aragon, Catalonia and the Roussillon in the north to Murcia and central-eastern Andalusia in the south. It's actually quite ironic that the term "Iberian" became used for the entire penninsula, given how relatively restricted the Iberians were.

If there is a common ancestor to all these languages, it goes back to the dawn of agriculture, 11,500 years ago. When one sees how much languages can evolve in "only" two thousand years, it is only natural to find only fragmentary similarities between unwritten languages completely isolated from each others for perhaps 5,000 or 6,000 years (like the ancestors of Iberian, Etruscan and Albanian must have been circa 1000 BCE). Furthermore, I expect that most "migrant languages" absorb a certain amount of vocabulary and grammatical features from the local languages in the region where the settle.

I absolutely agree that if all these agglutinative languages (note I'm bracketing out Albanian here, but I will adress it further below) have a common ancestry, the dawn of agriculture would be a perfect starting date that would explain why it's no longer possible to find more commonalities. Still, at the same time, one must say, while it obviously seems plausible, for the described reasons there's (most unfortunately) practically no way to test this.

Regarding the tendency to absorb vocabulary and other features, I think the Basque-Iberian relationship might be a case of this: many linguists have pointed out similarities between the languages, but at the same time, as others have pointed out, the Basque language has been of no help for deciphering Iberian. For this reason, I find the idea that the similarities are due to Basque loans in Iberian (or vice versa) rather convincing.

I am convinced that Etruscan was a hybrid/creole language. Whatever the exact origin of Etruscan people in the Near East, genetics show that they intermingled heavily with the local people of Italy (even prior to the Celtic migration across the Alps and the Roman expansion within Italy). Nowadays, DNA shows that Tuscans still have more Near Eastern ancestry than northern Italians, but they are predominantly European. As you mentioned it, Etruscan displayed both characteristics of Semitic and Indo-European languages. This corroborates what genetics already suggested. The Etruscans were surely an admixture of Semitic (high percentage of J2 with some J1 and E1b1b) and Italo-Celtic people (high frequency of R1b1b2a1).

I agree about the mixed Near-Eastern (not exclusively Semitic - since the Semitic languages are fusional like Indo-European, and not agglutinative) and mixed Italo-Celtic influences. In my opinion, the pre-Etruscan population of Etruria must have clearly been Italo-Celtic. There is also the very tempting theory that in fact the arrival of the Etruscans triggered the Italo-Celtic split in the first place, by creating geographic separation in what previously was a language continuum - even though this is a tad too speculative in my opinion.

One question that remains is that of the Raetians. The Raetian language is by many people considered to be related with Etruscan. Where did the Raetians come from? One possibility that I heard, which I find reasonably plausible is that the Raetians constitute the remains of an (Etruscan-speaking) pre-Gaulish population in central-northern Italy, which was displaced into the Alps when the Gauls arrived in northern Italy (variously dated 4th through 6th century BC).

Regarding Albanian, in my opinion, it is underlyingly an Indo-European language, but a very unique one, and one that certainly has expirienced a lot of different influences. In so far, while I think that a non-IE influence is plausible (though the question of when would be critical here, since as far as we know, by the time of Antiquity the entire Balkans appears to be inhabited by Indo-Europeans), I would rule out a connection with Etruscan.

One interesting aspect that I would like to bring up are Albanian numerals, some which are certainly similar to numerals in other IE languages:

One - Një (Lat. unus, Greek èna)
Two - Dy (Lat. duo, Greek dúo)
Three - Tre (Lat. tres)
Four - Katër (Lat. quattuor)
Five - Pesë (Greek pente)
Six - Gjashtë (Lat. sextum)
Seven - Shtatë (Lat. septem)
Eight - Tetë (Greek októ)
Nine - Nëntë (Lat. novem, Greek ennéa)
Ten - Dhjetë (Lat. decem, Greek deka)

For comparison, these are the Etruscan numerals (as far as I could find them):

One - Θu
Two - Zal
Three - Ci
Four - Mach
Five - Huθ
Six - Sha
Seven - ?
Eight - ?
Nine - ?
Ten - Sar

 

[zanipolo]

The recent theory was the the eneti where cappodocians ( originally hittites) and the ones that moved to Amisus ( as stated by homer and founded the city of enete) followed their leader pylaemenes along with the Paphlagonians to Troy, and from there into thrace, then illyria and then the adriatic.

 

[zanipolo]

By "Iberian", I am refering to the ancient non-IE language that in Antiquity was spoken in an arc stretching roughly from eastern Aragon, Catalonia and the Roussillon in the north to Murcia and central-eastern Andalusia in the south. It's actually quite ironic that the term "Iberian" became used for the entire penninsula, given how relatively restricted the Iberians were.

ok, no problem

have you noticed then that the eupedia site for haplogroups has Auverge and northern italy in the 3 main groups nearly identical in numbers.
would this be an indication of migratory travels?

Regarding the tendency to absorb vocabulary and other features, I think the Basque-Iberian relationship might be a case of this: many linguists have pointed out similarities between the languages, but at the same time, as others have pointed out, the Basque language has been of no help for deciphering Iberian. For this reason, I find the idea that the similarities are due to Basque loans in Iberian (or vice versa) rather convincing.

some linguists decipher basque from gascon language and the gascon with occitan, then witn provencal of which the ligurianes copied

One question that remains is that of the Raetians. The Raetian language is by many people considered to be related with Etruscan. Where did the Raetians come from? One possibility that I heard, which I find reasonably plausible is that the Raetians constitute the remains of an (Etruscan-speaking) pre-Gaulish population in central-northern Italy, which was displaced into the Alps when the Gauls arrived in northern Italy (variously dated 4th through 6th century BC).

the raetians also comprise of many tribes, the eugenai, cenomani, friulian, ladin to name just a few.

 

[iapetoc]

Otherwise, Etruscan has a number of borrowings from both Indo-European such as "Θewru" (Bull) (compare Latin "Taurus", Gaulish "Tarvos"), but also Semitic (most probably Phoenician), such as "Τaliθa" (girl). Tentatively, one must ask, is it possible that Etruscan was some kind of Creole language?

well Θewru is not imported to etruscan but it is Etruscan

The Greek-Pelasgic is Therion Θεριον
Apocalypse Mega Therion

The Greek IE word of hunter is Κυνηγος kinigos -> lead the dog -> dog boss, (cannis + go)
The Greek Pelasgic is Θηρευτης -> Hunter -> animal catcher,

Θερίον or Θεριό theri-ό last vowel tone means the animal that can kill, or can not be handlle cause its mighty or huge,
Therion could be a lion a bull an elephant an aurroch, sometimes it is used for hunting animals like fox or wolf but not correct,
Therion is the animal that can kill a human, or has hunters instict

the case that Etruscans name the Bull as Thewru can be find in Greece,
a bull or a cow, even a human can be described as therio, if it is difficult to handle,
i don't believe that is after gauls Tarvus, but origin Etruscan pelasgic word

Θεριον in English can have 3 translation
1 Beast more to the Idea of animal
2 Brutal more to idea of primitive hunting insting

that is why ancient Greek is considered difficult, but the language with the most rich vocabulary
while modern Greek are easy and poor language,

it combines 2-3 languages and has 2-3 words for every think

i wanted also to write about about alphabet,
but maybe in another post,

just that

Ancient Greek had 7 vowel marks α ε ι ο ω υ η

but 14 vowels

α ε ι η υ ο plus αι οι ει υι ου plus the aspired r and double l r is not a vowel but 'ρ Or ρρ or λλ are vowels,

modern Greek return to pelasgic-Anatolian 5 vowel system α ε ι ο ου due to Ionic dialect most popular, and Iones were Greeks that came from Pelasgians

Yes Taranis you are wright with C ανδ Γ and Q
as also the Greeks had different sounds than Phoenians in M and Σ etc

the case of Alpha -Beta from Aleph and Bet finds many Greek to opposite
I don't want to take a place cause it is early,

But Greek Alphabet is a praise to Gods and Sun in Pelasgic language

Al-fa Vi-ta Ga-ma

Αλ φα βει τα Γα μα ... means Sun shine (give us light) Go to all lands but ...

Al means sun ΗΛιος Hellios (semitic? EL?)
Vi βει λατερ βαινω means go to (latin Veni ???)


as I said Etruscan are not albanians and neither opposite

but they share a common ancestor,

the same in Greece,

i gave so many ancient and enough Homeric words

but yet the word aqua or aqwa is missing in Greek language,
on the other hand Greek mythology has titan Ωκεανος okea
aqua -> akua = okea ??? hmmm

remember that Romania is a latin speaking country, so by that can we prove Romanians were Latians or Italians?????? or Latians came from Romania !!!!!

Albanians after Kossovo war are in a mood of nationalism,

in a site blog I even read that they are the Real ancient Greeks and Greeks are turkish

history archaiology and linguistic as much as they can help us,
they speak and prove a common ancestor's culture

 

[how yes no 2]

The recent theory was the the eneti where cappodocians ( originally hittites) and the ones that moved to Amisus ( as stated by homer and founded the city of enete) followed their leader pylaemenes along with the Paphlagonians to Troy, and from there into thrace, then illyria and then the adriatic.

zanipolo, there are topics of Veneti...and you can also open new ones...let's not spam here....
btw. I expect reference for what you claim above...because according to story written down by Strabo Veneti were most notable of all Paphlagonians, now you claim they were not Paphlagonians...and you also insert Illyria whereas in Strabo's story Illyria is not mentioned and Veneti moved to Thrace and than to Adriatic... regarding you thinking that Venethi and Veneti are different tribal names, I am pretty convinced that it is same tribal name...it is another question what were the circumstances that led to those people having same tribal name... was it same genetic origin or not... I think it was.. R1a + I2a2...


now, back to Etruscans

father= apa
mother =ati
wife = puia
brother = ruva

http://books.google.nl/books?id=VWG...g=PA58#v=onepage&q=venetic vocabulary&f=false


fire = uerse
god(s) = aisar
monkey = arimos
king = lucumo
freedman = lautni
son = clan
daughter = sech
grandson = nefts, papals
grandfather = papa
grandmother = teta
children = husiur
parents/ancestors = ateri
dictator = purth
mirror = malena
June = aclus
I = mi
me = mini
you = un
for you = une
who/which = ipa
whoever = ipe ipa
stranger,client, slave = etera
bellow = hinth
gold = zamathi
city = spura
image = sren
year = avil
month = tiur
at first = thuni
again = etnam
now = thui
here = thui
until = epl, pul
also = etnam
writing/book = zich



Aristotle claims that Etruscans and Carthaginians are so close that they almost make one people....
http://books.google.nl/books?id=VWG...g=PA68#v=onepage&q=venetic vocabulary&f=false
On Greek island of Lemnos there are inscriptions from 6th century similar to Etruscan ones both in alphabet and vocabulary...
http://books.google.nl/books?id=VWG...g=PA61#v=onepage&q=venetic vocabulary&f=false

Lemnos is close to Lydia, Carthaginians or Phoenicans origin from southeast of Asia minor... thus languages/culture similar to Etruscan also origin from south of Asia minor...

Let'see who lived on Lemnos

For ancient Greeks, the island was sacred to Hephaestus, god of metallurgy, who— as he tells himself in Iliad I.590ff— fell on Lemnos when his father Zeus hurled him headlong out of Olympus. There, he was cared for by the Sinties, according to Iliad or by Thetis (Apollodorus, Bibliotheke I:3.5), and there with a Thracian nymph Cabiro (a daughter of Proteus) he fathered a tribe called the Kaberoi. Sacred initiatory rites dedicated to them were performed in the island.
Hephaestus' forge, which was located on Lemnos, as well as the name Aethaleia, sometimes applied to it, points to its volcanic character. It is said that fire occasionally blazed forth from Mosychlos, one of its mountains. The ancient geographer Pausanias relates that a small island called Chryse, off the Lemnian coast, was swallowed up by the sea. All volcanic action is now extinct.
The earliest inhabitants are said to have been a Thracian tribe, whom the Greeks called Sintians, "robbers". The name Lemnos is said by Hecataeus to have been applied in the form of a title to Cybele among the Thracians. The worship of Cybele was characteristic of Thrace, where it had spread from Asia Minor at a very early period. Hypsipyle and Myrina (the name of one of the chief towns) are Amazon names, which are always connected with Asiatic Cybele-worship.
According to the epitome of the Bibliotheke traditionally attributed to Apollodorus (Epitome I:9), when Dionysus found Ariadne abandoned on Naxos, he brought her to Lemnos and there fathered Thoas, Staphylus, Oenopion, and Peparethus. Pliny the Elder in his Natural History (xxxvi. 13) speaks of a remarkable labyrinth in Lemnos, which has not been identified in modern times.
According to a Hellenic legend, the women were all deserted by their husbands for Thracian women, and in revenge they murdered every man on the island. From this barbarous act, the expression Lemnian deeds became proverbial among the Hellenes. according to Apollonius of Rhodes' Argonautica the Argonauts landing soon after found only women in the island, ruled by Hypsipyle, daughter of the old king Thoas. From the Argonauts and the Lemnian women were descended the race called Minyans, whose king Euneus, son of Jason and Hypsipyle, sent wine and provisions to the Achaeans at Troy. According to later Greek historians, the Minyans were expelled by a Pelasgian tribe who came from Attica.
The historical element underlying these traditions is probably that the original Thracian people were gradually brought into communication with the Greeks as navigation began to unite the scattered islands of the Aegean; the Thracian inhabitants were technologically primitive in comparison with the Greek mariners.
In another legend, Philoctetes was left on Lemnos by the Greeks on their way to Troy; and there he suffered ten years' agony from his wounded foot, until Odysseus and Neoptolemus induced him to accompany them to Troy. According to Sophocles, he lived beside Mount Hermaeus, which Aeschylus makes one of the beacon points to flash the news of Troy's downfall home to Argos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnos


now, if the Albanian interpretation of inscriptionfro the start of the thread is correct, that would mean that the languages are practically the same... thus, most of the words bellow should exist in albanian as well.. I will add next to it serbo-croat and greek words...words are taken from google translate... so native Albanian and Greek speakers should react if they see etruscan word that has cognjate in their languages...

english - etruscan - albanian - greek - serbo-croat
father= apa = baba, ate = patéras = otac, tata
mother =ati = nënë, mëmë, burim = mi̱téra = majka, mama, mater, mati
wife = puia = grua,bashkëshorte, shoqe = gynaíka = žena, supruga
brother = ruva = vëlla, shok = adelfós = brat

fire = uerse = zjarr, pasion, fugë, ethe =pyrkagiás = vatra
god(s) = aisar = perëndi= theoí = bog/bogovi
monkey = arimos = majmun, çamarrok = maïmoú = majmun
king = lucumo = mbret, car = vasiliás = kralj, car
freeman = lautni = njeri i lirë, qytetar = eléf̱theros = slobodan
son = clan = e saj = tou = sin
daughter = sech = bijë, vajzë = kóri̱= (k)ćerka, kći
grandson = nefts, papals = nip = engonós = unuk
grandfather = papa = gjysh, stërgjysh, babagjysh = pappoús = deda
grandmother = teta = gjyshe = giagiá = baba, baka (teta = older woman, aunt)
children = husiur = fëmijëve = paidiá = deca
parents/ancestors = ateri = prindërit/paraardhësit = goneís/Oi prógonoí = roditelji/ preci, oci
dictator = purth = diktator = diktátoras = diktator
mirror = malena = pasqyrë, shembull = kathrépti̱s = ogledalo
who/which = ipa = ke, cili, kush = o opoíos, i̱ opoía = ko, koga
whoever = ipe ipa = kush = opoiosdí̱pote = kogod (however = ipak)
stranger/client/slave = etera = i huaj, i panjohuri/klient, blerës, myshteri/rob, skllav = xénos / peláti̱s /doúlos = stranac / klijent, mušterija / rob
bellow = hinth = më poshtë, pallje = parakáto̱ = ispod
gold = zamathi = ar, flori = chrysós = zlato
city = spura = qytet = póli̱ =grad
image = sren = imazh, figurë, shëmbëlltyrë = Eikóna = slika
year = avil = vit, vjet = étos = godina
month = tiur = muaj = mí̱na = mesec
again = etnam =përsëri, sërish, prapë= kai páli = opet
now = thui = tani, tash = tó̱ra = sad
here = thui = këtu = edó̱ = ovde, tu, tuj
until = epl, pul = deri, gjer = méchri = do
also = etnam = gjithashtu, edhe = Epísi̱s = takodje, isto
writing/book = zich = shkrim, shënim, gramë/ libër, blok = graptó̱s/vivlío = pisanje/knjiga

to conclude, it is obvious that neither of the languages above has much to do with Etruscan... considering this, the idea that the etruscan text above has direct meaning in Albanian as proposed by some albanian scientist is not likely at all.. same text is by people studying Etruscan considered to have completely different meaning (legal contract and not story about a ghost in a cave)...

 

[Taranis]

How Yes No, are you arguing that the Minoan language (ie, the as-of-now undeciphered "Eteocretan" language of Linear-A) was related with Etruscan? It's very hard to test, but this might be another possibility.

Otherwise, I very agree that Albanian has not much to do with Etruscan (I disagree with some other things you said, but I want to get that later). The main reason for me is the complete lack of sound correspondence.

 

[how yes no 2]

How Yes No, are you arguing that the Minoan language (ie, the as-of-now undeciphered "Eteocretan" language of Linear-A) was related with Etruscan? It's very hard to test, but this might be another possibility.

I do not have strong argument to argue that...but it is possibility that should be taken into account...

it looks to me that there is cultural similarity...and taken into account that Etruscans origin from Lydia, they did develop in area of influence of the Minoan civilization... Minoian civilization is often considered to stretch into Lydia...another thing is that Minoians were sea oriented people living on islands, the sea orientation explains travelling by ships to far away lands as Lydians travelled by ships to Umbria to become Etruscans....... As Etruscans, Minoians spoke non-IE language...so it is likely that the Minoian language is same as Etruscan or related to it...

 

[Taranis]

The problem is that for the greater part, the Linear A script remains mostly undeciphered, and the Linear B script (which was, after all, used to write the Greek language, even though it was rather unsuited for writing it!) is not of much help since to my knowledge only about a sixth of the Linear B signs are also found in Linear A, and we do not really know if they really present exactly the same value in Linear A as they do in Linear B. After all, it is a well-known phenomenon that when people adopt a writing system which was intended for a different language towards their own language, they make modifications to it to accomodate it more to their own language.

Another problem is, we know that Linear B was effectively a mix of syllabic and logographic signs (for example man and horse). The logographic signs are ... we obviously know the Greek words for man and horse (or at least can reconstruct the ancient Greek words), but since we do not know the Minoan/Eteocretan words for which such logographic signs stood, they are no use for us to decipher it.