Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 88

Thread: who are the pommeranians?

  1. #1
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    who are the pommeranians?

    as per link below, the pommerains seem to be the very early venedi or goths
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Pomerania


    in link below, the map clearly states the pommeranian culture which covers exactly the vistula venedi one

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastorf_culture

  2. #2
    Viscount
    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    as per link below, the pommerains seem to be the very early venedi or goths
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Pomerania


    in link below, the map clearly states the pommeranian culture which covers exactly the vistula venedi one

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastorf_culture
    a possible interpretation of their tribal name comes from Slavic languages (I do not know Baltic languages, explanation there could be similar)

    more = sea
    pomorje = area around sea
    pomeranians = people who live around sea

    similar origin of tribal names are common in Slavs
    e.g. Polanes - comes from word "polje"= field, thus people living in fields
    Derevlians - comes from "drvo"= tree, thus people living in woods...
    Moravians = people living around Morava river

    well, here is what Russian primary chronicle says about it...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle

    After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.

    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were
    called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina, and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
    Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians.

    Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic.
    When the Polyanians lived by themselves among the hills, a trade-route connected the Varangians with the Greeks. Starting from Greece, this route proceeds along the Dnipro, above which a portage leads to the Lovat'. By following the Lovat', the great lake Il'men' is reached.The river Volkhov flows out of this lake and enters the great lake Nevo. The mouth of this lake opens into the Varangian Sea.
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

    note that
    Slavic "more" = "mare" in latin languages...and "Meer" in germanic (also sea/zee)

    but adding preffix "po-" to it, is I think very Slavic... and very common practice in Slavic

    e.g. in Serbia, the area around river Drina is Podrinje, area around Danube river ("Dunav" in Slavic languages) is Podunavlje...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podunavlje
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podrinje

    I am not sure but I do not think there is similar preffix in Germanic languages....

  3. #3
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    as per link below, the pommerains seem to be the very early venedi or goths
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Pomerania
    First off, the Pomeranians and the "Pomeranian Culture" were completely unrelated. The latter is just an artificial term coined by archaeologists.

    in link below, the map clearly states the pommeranian culture which covers exactly the vistula venedi one

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastorf_culture
    It doesn't. The Venedi lived in the pink-colored area (West Baltic Cairns Culture). The people of the Pomeranian Culture, (at least, 2nd century AD, compare Ptolemy's Geography) were probably East-Germanic peoples, though there may be some Celtic and Dacian influence in the south, at least judging from Celtic and Dacian place names. The main tribes of the area were the Rugians, Burgundians, Lugians and the Goths.

  4. #4
    Viscount
    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The Venedi lived in the pink-colored area (West Baltic Cairns Culture). The people of the Pomeranian Culture, (at least, 2nd century AD, compare Ptolemy's Geography) were probably East-Germanic peoples, though there may be some Celtic and Dacian influence in the south, at least judging from Celtic and Dacian place names. The main tribes of the area were the Rugians, Burgundians, Lugians and the Goths.
    hm, wonder whether there was really clear difference between west germanic and east Slavic....

    tacitus clearly uses living in houses versus living nomad lifestyle to classify Vistula Veneti in Germanic people...

    could Lugians/Luiggi be same is Lyakhs from text bellow:
    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were
    called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

    lug = small forest, so this would be tribal name of people living in small forest... which fits well slavic tribal name construction explained above...

    but I am wrong Lyakh is obviously about Lechs, which is alternative name of Poles...

    during writing on sea people thread, I was wondering whether Lechs have tribal name related to Lycia and to Peleset...

    possible trace of movement from Lycia to Lech/Lugii is in spread of U3 mitohondrial lineage.. a hotspot in northeast of Black sea matches Siraces who are thought to be same or related to Serboi of Caspian highlands (probably known later as Sabirs and incorporated in Chuvash people today)


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/

    so, Russian primary chronicle perhaps in fact claims that Danubian Slavs (Serbs, white Croats, Carantanians) found refuge in land of Lech people (Lugii?)
    that is quite possible...Scordisci going north along Danube would end up in Bohemia which is just south of Lugii in this map...

    Lugii at 1AD are on source of Vistula just bellow Veneti


    Vistula

  5. #5
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    hm, wonder whether there was really clear difference between west germanic and east Slavic....
    You mean East Germanic and West Slavic? Frankly, the Slavic languages, with high certainty weren't differenciated yet at that point. I'm also reasonably sure that the denizens of the Pommeranian Culture, if they were Germanic, spoke Pre-Germanic instead of East Germanic, since the Pommeranian Culture (7th to 2nd centuries BC) predates the Germanic sound shifts.

    tacitus clearly uses living in houses versus living nomad lifestyle to classify Vistula Veneti in Germanic people...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus, XLVI
    The Veneti have borrowed largely from the Sarmatian character; in their plundering expeditions they roam over the whole extent of forest and mountain between the Peucini and Fenni. They are however to be rather referred to the German race, for they have fixed habitations carry shields, and delight in strength and fleetness of foot, thus presenting a complete contrast to the Sarmatae, who live in waggons and on horseback.
    could Lugians be same is Liakhs from text bellow:
    In my opinion, the Lugians were Germanicized Celts. What speaks in favour of this is that in the area inhabited by the Lugians (upper Oder area) there are overtly Celtic town names such as "Carrodunum" and "Lugidunum". Tentatively, there's also the connection between the "Lugians" and the pan-Celtic deity "Lugus". Most importantly, there's "Lugdunum" (modern Lyon).

  6. #6
    Viscount
    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You mean East Germanic and West Slavic? Frankly, the Slavic languages, with high certainty weren't differenciated yet at that point. I'm also reasonably sure that the denizens of the Pommeranian Culture, if they were Germanic, spoke Pre-Germanic instead of East Germanic, since the Pommeranian Culture (7th to 2nd centuries BC) predates the Germanic sound shifts.
    yes, that's what I meant... made lapsus...
    Slavic language may have developed recently by east Germanic or Celtic people merging their language with the language of iranian Sarmatians... but I think Slavic language is much older than the time it is attested...

    Pomeranian culture and Pomneranians are probably unrelated... culture should have gotten some other name and later Pomeranians are likely Slavs... that is also claimed by Russian primary chronicle above...because its chronology suggests that Danubian Slavs were first pushed to north by Roman empire and there they joined Lyakhs and only than tribe of Pomeranians came to existance... with Pomeranian being clear Slavic way to name people living at sea coast I agree that what is called Pomeranian culture is probably unrelated to Pomeranians...


    In my opinion, the Lugians were Germanicized Celts. What speaks in favour of this is that in the area inhabited by the Lugians (upper Oder area) there are overtly Celtic town names such as "Carrodunum" and "Lugidunum". Tentatively, there's also the connection between the "Lugians" and the pan-Celtic deity "Lugus". Most importantly, there's "Lugdunum" (modern Lyon).
    that makes sense...
    my association to Lug are Sorbs who are called "lusatian Serbs" (Lužički Srbi) in Serbia... also there is part of south Serbia called "Lužnica" but I guess that is related to type of oak tree called "lužnjak" or "hrast (oak) lužnjak"
    As Celtic, Slavic religion was also related to oak tree... in fact, from what I see IE people had more or less same religion...

    Sorbs live in Germany in border area with Czech republic and Poland... which roughly falls in to west part of Lugii position from 1AD ...

    so, Lugii would not be Lechs but Sorbs or Lusatians... though the Russian primary chronicle derives various Polish tribes (Polyanians, Lutichians, Mazovians) and Pomorians from Lyakh...

    in fact in prehistoric Iberia we find tribal names such as Seurbi and Seurri, Lusitani and Lougei
    and the areas involved again match well with U3 mitohondrial lineage



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Iberia
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eria_300BC.svg (click for larger image)

  7. #7
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    Baltic languages, explanation there could be similar)

    more = sea
    pomorje = area around sea
    pomeranians = people who live around sea

    note that
    Slavic "more" = "mare" in latin languages...and "Meer" in germanic (also sea/zee)

    but adding preffix "po-" to it, is I think very Slavic... and very common practice in Slavic


    I am not sure but I do not think there is similar preffix in Germanic languages....
    note that
    Venet "mare" = mother, but "mar" = sea, add "po" = was/later
    pomeranian could be = was from the sea or from the mother

  8. #8
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    First off, the Pomeranians and the "Pomeranian Culture" were completely unrelated. The latter is just an artificial term coined by archaeologists.



    It doesn't. The Venedi lived in the pink-colored area (West Baltic Cairns Culture). The people of the Pomeranian Culture, (at least, 2nd century AD, compare Ptolemy's Geography) were probably East-Germanic peoples, though there may be some Celtic and Dacian influence in the south, at least judging from Celtic and Dacian place names. The main tribes of the area were the Rugians, Burgundians, Lugians and the Goths.
    so, they are germanic , which you can include the lombards, as they originated in the same area. The script also says the Veneti was from the pomeranian culture.
    The rugians would then have migrated into dalmatia with the ostrogoths and formed eventually the duchy of Rugusa .
    The original language was
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language
    which was latinized then venetized

  9. #9
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    so, they are germanic , which you can include the lombards, as they originated in the same area. The script also says the Veneti was from the pomeranian culture.
    The rugians would then have migrated into dalmatia with the ostrogoths and formed eventually the duchy of Rugusa .
    The original language was
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language
    which was latinized then venetized
    Actually, no, the Lombards/Langobardi lived further to the west, along the Elbe. Various sources in Antiquity are very clear about that.

  10. #10
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, no, the Lombards/Langobardi lived further to the west, along the Elbe. Various sources in Antiquity are very clear about that.
    hmm,
    I read this in many books
    From the combined testimony of Strabo (AD 20) and Tacitus (AD 117), the Lombards dwelt near the mouth of the Elbe shortly after the beginning of the Christian era, next to the Chauci.[17] Strabo states that the Lombards dwelt on both sides of the Elbe.[18] The German archaeologist Willi Wegewitz defined several Iron Age burial sites at the lower Elbe as Langobardic.[19] The burial sites, are crematorial and are usually dated from the 6th century BC through the 3rd AD, so that a settlement breakoff seems unlikely.[20] The lands of the lower Elbe fall into the zone of the Jastorf Culture and became Elbe-Germanic, differing from the lands between Rhine, Weser, and the North Sea.[21] Archaeological finds show that the Lombards were an agricultural people.[22]

    Since the Jastorf culture is Pommerian , then the lombards where East germanic, or is this a wrong evaluation.

  11. #11
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Jastorf Culture is NOT the same as Pommeranian Culture. The Langobardi were part of Jastorf, not the Pommeranian Culture. The Langobards were not East Germanic, but associated with the Suebi instead.

  12. #12
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Jastorf Culture is NOT the same as Pommeranian Culture. The Langobardi were part of Jastorf, not the Pommeranian Culture. The Langobards were not East Germanic, but associated with the Suebi instead.
    You fail to understand the logic

    pommerian lands are suebic language - germanic
    next to them going east was the Aesti language - finnic/scandinavian
    next to them was the baltic language - finnic first, later joined by Uralic

    My term east germanic is probably wrong and should be stated only as Germanic.
    Pommerian culture and Jastorf culture where from the same germanic areas.

  13. #13
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    longobards bracketed as east germanic

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germanic_tribes




    The lombards neighbors the Rugii had left the Baltic coast during the migration period. It is said that Burgundians, Veneti, Goths and Gepids with parts of the Rugians left Pomerania during the late Roman Age, and that during the migration period, remnants of Rugians, Vistula Veneti, Vidivarii and other, Germanic tribes remained and formed units that were later Slavicized
    The Oxhöft culture is associated with parts of the Rugii and Lemovii.[4] The archaeological Gustow group of Western Pomerania is also associated with the Rugii.[12][13] The remains of the Rugii west of the Vidivarii, together with other Gothic, Veneti, and Gepid groups, are believed to be identical with the archaeological Debczyn group

    The Jastorf culture is associated with early Germanic peoples. Western Pomerania belonged to the Warnow-Oder estituary subgroup of the Jastorf culture,[11] the easternmost group is designated Oder group.[42] The Oder group, formerly thought to have emerged after an immigration from Bornholm, is now thought to have evolved from a local population formerly belonging to the Pomeranian culture and the Göritz group of the Lusatian culture, who first adapted to new habits and later mingeld with a Germanic population from the West

    this below
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture
    is the period I am looking at

    lombards as a suebi tribe
    Paterculus described the Lombards as "more fierce than ordinary German savagery."[23] Tacitus counted the Lombards as a Suebian tribe,[24]

  14. #14
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    You fail to understand the logic
    Thank you for randomly insulting me.

    pommerian lands are suebic language - germanic
    next to them going east was the Aesti language - finnic/scandinavian
    next to them was the baltic language - finnic first, later joined by Uralic
    There were no Suebi in the area of the Pomeranian Culture - they lived further to the west.

    My term east germanic is probably wrong and should be stated only as Germanic.
    Pommerian culture and Jastorf culture where from the same germanic areas.
    In linguistics "East Germanic" is well-defined as a separate branch of the Germanic languages, which includes Gothic (the by far best attested East Germanic language), as well as Burgundian and Vandalic. The Lombards lived further to the west (along the Elbe) and are very unlikely hence to have spoken East Germanic.

  15. #15
    Viscount
    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands



    I try also to follow intuition in things like this....

    so, I looked in what was Pomeranian culture...

    this does not feel as germanic sensibility for art...
    besides Germanic people are mostly too practical for art anyway...

    it can easily be proto-Slavic... or Baltic....or Finish...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture

  16. #16
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I try also to follow intuition in things like this....
    Intuition? No logic, no Occam's razor, no consideration whatsoever regarding plausibility.

    so, I looked in what was Pomeranian culture...

    this does not feel as germanic sensibility for art...
    besides Germanic people are mostly too practical for art anyway...
    That is a (silly I should say) cliche, a simplification and a stereotype on top of it.

    it can easily be proto-Slavic... or Baltic....or Finish...
    Following the accounts of Tacitus (1st century AD) and Ptolemy (2nd century AD) that the area is inhabited by East Germanic peoples. The Pommeranian Culture precedes these accounts by several centuries, but the following cultures evolved continously out of the Pommeranian culture, so it's certainly plausible to assume that they were Germanic (linguistically, "Pre-Germanic" would be more accurate).

    I would not rule out Baltic (or languages close to it, it's very hard to tell since it's so early), but I'd like to point out that in historically attested times, the Balts generally lived further to the east. It's also clear that Tacitus also refers to Baltic peoples and he is very uncertain what to make of them. It's also clear though that the East Germanic and Baltic peoples were in close contact.

    What should be noted, prehistory-wise is that the Pommeranian Culture is itself a successor of the Lusatian culture, which was in turn an offshot of the Urnfield Culture.

  17. #17
    Viscount
    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands



    let's take a look at match of culture spreads to spread of haplogroups


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastorf_culture

    Early Iron Age:
    dark green: Nordic Bronze Age
    dark red: Jastorf culture
    yellow: Harpstedt-Nienburg group
    orange: Celtic groups
    olive: Pomeranian culture
    green: House urns culture
    reddish: East Baltic culture
    lilac: West Baltic cairns culture
    turquoise; Milogrady culture
    black: estonic group


    Late Pre-Roman Iron Age:
    dark green: Nordic group
    dark red: late phase Jastorf culture
    buff: Harpstedt-Nienburg group
    green: House Urns culture
    dark brown: Oksywie culture
    red: Gubin group of Jastorf
    olive: Przeworsk culture
    lilac: West-Baltic cairns culture
    reddish: East-Baltic culture
    turquoise: Zarubincy culture
    orange: Celtic


    cultures show clear sign of continuity....Przeworsk is clearly succesor of Pomeranian culture... only in area around Baltic shores there is a new culture (Oksywie culture) emerging that could be due to mixture of Pomeranian with some other e.g. Nordic Bronze...












    I1 matches Nordic Bronze Age
    I2b Jastorf culture

    area of Pomeranian culture doesnot match in any way neither I1 nor I2b1, so it couldnot have been Germanic... I1 does show correlation with new culture (Oksywie culture) emerging along Baltic shores where north most part of Pomeranian culture was, so we can assume Nordic Bronze culturre spreading by conquest to north most areas of Pomeranian culture... spread of Przeworsk is clearly representing follow up of Pomeranian culture... and with Przeworsk we come very close to early Slavs

    case closed...

  18. #18
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    @how yes no


    I can understand the first 2 maps, but what does the other maps represent?

  19. #19
    Viscount
    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Intuition? No logic, no Occam's razor, no consideration whatsoever regarding plausibility.
    intuition is also kind of logic...
    if you are not able to feel the difference between art of different cultures than perhaps you are missing something in your education and logic...

    Following the accounts of Tacitus (1st century AD) and Ptolemy (2nd century AD) that the area is inhabited by East Germanic peoples. The Pommeranian Culture precedes these accounts by several centuries, but the following cultures evolved continously out of the Pommeranian culture, so it's certainly plausible to assume that they were Germanic (linguistically, "Pre-Germanic" would be more accurate).
    oh, come on... grow up...don't be such a 19th century historian...

    Tacitus explains his methodology for classification when he talks of Vistula Veneti...
    he says that Vistula Veneti have lot of elements of Sarmatian, but because they live in houses (and not as nomads) he classify them as Germanic...
    with such a criteria I guess today whole world is Germanic...

    only biased 19th century history school originating in biased historians of Germany and Austro-Hungarian empire can use such classification as a proof that Veneti were Germanic...

    if your logic is still that Veneti are Germanic cause Tacitus said so, than you do not know what logic is...

  20. #20
    Viscount
    Join Date
    26-10-10
    Posts
    863


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    @how yes no


    I can understand the first 2 maps, but what does the other maps represent?
    do not write about genetics if you have no clue what those maps are....
    look at this website (not forum) for some initial explanation about genetics...

  21. #21
    Regular Member zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,071

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    do not write about genetics if you have no clue what those maps are....
    look at this website (not forum) for some initial explanation about genetics...
    I know where to find them, I know they are genetic numbers, but I ask for others as well. Some legends in your posts would help , not just you, me but everyone else who reads these posts.

  22. #22
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    let's take a look at match of culture spreads to spread of haplogroups

    area of Pomeranian culture doesnot match in any way neither I1 nor I2b1, so it couldnot have been Germanic... I1 does show correlation with new culture (Oksywie culture) emerging along Baltic shores where north most part of Pomeranian culture was, so we can assume Nordic Bronze culturre spreading by conquest to north most areas of Pomeranian culture... spread of Przeworsk is clearly representing follow up of Pomeranian culture... and with Przeworsk we come very close to early Slavs

    case closed...
    That is just wrong on so many levels. You take modern-day distributions of Y-chromosomal Haplogroups and ad-hoc assign ethnic affiliations to them. What you are forgetting is this:
    - that these Haplogroup maps represent the modern-day situation and some 2200 years passed since the Pommeranian Culture.
    - that Haplogroups and linguistic affiliations are rather detached from each other.

    And, as I have stated before, if you take a look at Ptolemy, there is absolutely no onomastic evidence that there were any Slavic peoples in Germania in the 2nd century AD. Why should there be early Slavic peoples in the area in the 5th through 2nd centuries BC, then disappear in the 1st-2nd centuries AD and then suddenly reappear in the migrations period? That makes no sense. It's far more reasonable to assume that the Slavic people just arrived with the migrations period.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    intuition is also kind of logic...
    if you are not able to feel the difference between art of different cultures than perhaps you are missing something in your education and logic...


    oh, come on... grow up...don't be such a 19th century historian...

    Tacitus explains his methodology for classification when he talks of Vistula Veneti...
    he says that Vistula Veneti have lot of elements of Sarmatian, but because they live in houses (and not as nomads) he classify them as Germanic...
    with such a criteria I guess today whole world is Germanic...

    only biased 19th century history school originating in biased historians of Germany and Austro-Hungarian empire can use such classification as a proof that Veneti were Germanic...

    if your logic is still that Veneti are Germanic cause Tacitus said so, than you do not know what logic is...
    And again, you are insulting me. This time I'm going to report you.

  23. #23
    Elite member Dagne's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-04-11
    Location
    Vilnius
    Posts
    597


    Ethnic group
    Lithuanian
    Country: Lithuania



    According to Marija Gimbutas http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbu...mbutas-03.html (map from p.83) Pomeranians were one of the Western Baltic tribes:

    Fig. 24. Baltic groups during the Early Iron Age (c. 600–400 B.C. and later) based on archaeological finds. 1, the “Face-urn” group of Pomerania and lower Vistula; 1a, the area of expansion of the “Bell-grave” group, successor of the “Face-urn” group, in the fourth and third centuries B.C.; 2, the west Masurian group, probably connected with the later Prussian Galindians; 3, the Sembian-Notangian group; 4, the lower Nemunas, western Latvian group connected with the early Curonians (Kurshians); 5, the east Masurian or Sudovian (Jatvingian) group; 6, the Brushed Pottery group ancestral to Lithuanians, Selians, Lettigallians and Semigallians; 7, the Plain Pottery culture to be identified with the easternmost Bolts; 8, the “Milograd” group of the seventh-sixth centuries B.C. Location of the Scythian farmers, Neuri and Androphagi based on Herodotus

  24. #24
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    According to Marija Gimbutas http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbu...mbutas-03.html (map from p.83) Pomeranians were one of the Western Baltic tribes:

    Fig. 24. Baltic groups during the Early Iron Age (c. 600–400 B.C. and later) based on archaeological finds. 1, the “Face-urn” group of Pomerania and lower Vistula; 1a, the area of expansion of the “Bell-grave” group, successor of the “Face-urn” group, in the fourth and third centuries B.C.; 2, the west Masurian group, probably connected with the later Prussian Galindians; 3, the Sembian-Notangian group; 4, the lower Nemunas, western Latvian group connected with the early Curonians (Kurshians); 5, the east Masurian or Sudovian (Jatvingian) group; 6, the Brushed Pottery group ancestral to Lithuanians, Selians, Lettigallians and Semigallians; 7, the Plain Pottery culture to be identified with the easternmost Bolts; 8, the “Milograd” group of the seventh-sixth centuries B.C. Location of the Scythian farmers, Neuri and Androphagi based on Herodotus
    That's confusing. The archaeological cultures on that map are vastly more located to the east than the Pomeranian Culture on the other map.

  25. #25
    Elite member Dagne's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-04-11
    Location
    Vilnius
    Posts
    597


    Ethnic group
    Lithuanian
    Country: Lithuania



    Hmmm, perhaps, the spread southwards happened a bit later than 600-400 BC. Gimbutas explains:
    "The Face-Urn people, probably taking advantage of the breaking up of Lusatian power by the Scythians, expanded southward. The descendants of the Face-Urn people occupied the whole Vistula basin in Poland and the part of the western Ukraine reaching the upper Dniester in the south.

    This expansion around 400–300 B.C. brought changes. The fashionable face urns gradually lost their human features and developed into much more simplified versions. [...] This change in grave type probably came about because of the spread of the Face-Urn people over the territory of the Lusatians who covered their urns with pots. Some scholars are therefore inclined to consider the pot-covered urn culture as a continuation of, or resulting from a mixture with, the Lusatian culture. However, it is more logical to suppose that the Lusatians merely influenced the Face-Urn culture. The similarity of the urns of the pot-covered urn period to the face-urns is striking whereas there is no genetic relationship to the style of the Lusatian pottery. We can also recognize a very close relationship with the pottery made by other Prussian tribes in East Prussia. The pot-covered urn culture is certainly not an “early east Germanic culture,” as Petersen called it in his otherwise valuable study of 1929 describing the graves and finds in the territory of prewar eastern Germany.22

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •