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Thread: Were the Croatians originally Slavic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    For the fifth time in this forum. I dare you to present a single proof that those Paleo Balkan people that are Albanians today were also Albanians just 1000 years ago. And open a separate thread.
    Roman sources. They state that Illyrians inhabited the region.
    The amount of E v13, J2b, I2a ballkanic came from slavisized Illirians. Croatian language shows that its original site was south Poland border with Ucraine. Current slavic population living there does not have this haplogroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    For the fifth time in this forum. I dare you to present a single proof that those Paleo Balkan people that are Albanians today were also Albanians just 1000 years ago. And open a separate thread.
    I have given you numerous sources such as this and this my ignorant Slavic friend, but your job is to deny everything Albanian, so there is no point for me to continue.

    http://www.britannica.com/place/Albania/Cultural-institutions#toc129453

    http://www.britannica.com/place/Alba...mpire#toc42643

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Roman sources. They state that Illyrians inhabited the region.
    The amount of E v13, J2b, I2a ballkanic came from slavisized Illirians. Croatian language shows that its original site was south Poland border with Ucraine. Current slavic population living there does not have this haplogroups.
    1. A single Illyrian corpse with any of those haplogroups please?

    2. What do you mean they don"t have these haplogroups? Half of Europe's got like ~10 % of E-V13. Are you certain that they didn't also have it in the 4th century? There is a huge probability that there was 10x more Slavic E-V13 that entered Balkan, than autochthonous ones.

    3. How do you connect these with Albanians anyway. There is a timehole of 1000 years between.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I have given you numerous sources such as this and this my ignorant Slavic friend, but your job is to deny everything Albanian, so there is no point for me to continue.

    http://www.britannica.com/place/Albania/Cultural-institutions#toc129453

    http://www.britannica.com/place/Alba...mpire#toc42643
    Do you understand a concept of a fact? What you gave up there are not facts or proofs, but opinions. And separate thread dude...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I thought those were Neanderthals who were really (!) autochthonous, not Albanians?:

    Yes, the Neanderthals were the real autochtonous. But we are talking about the people who are still alive

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    So your view is that Albanians were frogs? Having problem crossing the highway?




    This could be a good starting point for you to think about when creating the wild theories about Albanian history:

    "For instance, the high degree of sharedcommon ancestry among Albanian speakers might be because most of these originated from a small village rather than uniformly across Albania and Kosovo."

    "This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years."


    "These individuals share similar numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations as do individuals in other parts of Europe, implying that the Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one."


    source: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.3815v1.pdf
    No. You misinterpreting my view. Albanians or the Albanian language survived from the Latin influence only on some isolated small pockets throughout south Illyria and Epirus. This is what I read from the serious linguists. Via egnatia was as a Latin gap between the two branches of the Albanian. This gap separated the two branches, but not only these. We had other ancient roads which divided other sub dialects of the Albanian. Ancients roads were a latinized area, where the Albanian language disappeared. If we see the ancient maps where the Roman roads crossed the territory, we will see the map of the division of the modern Albanian dialects. It can't be a coincidence

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The question is, ............IMO, the Ghegs and Tosks are a completely different ethnic race from each other in ancient times. Different, in culture, language and DNA
    No. As we read from serious linguists, they are not different. They are two branches of the Albanian ethnicity. They have many differences, as already have the Greeks. What is here that you don't understand. I think the first earlier division started 2300 years ago. The Hyllirians of the south, became culturally too close with the Hellenic culture (epirots tribes). Their ruling class became partly helenised. This helenised process was interrupted by the Roman invasion .(mollosians were totally killed , slaughtered and enslaved by the Romans) .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    No. As we read from serious linguists, they are not different. They are two branches of the Albanian ethnicity. They have many differences, as already have the Greeks. What is here that you don't understand. I think the first earlier division started 2300 years ago. The Hyllirians of the south, became culturally too close with the Hellenic culture (epirots tribes). Their ruling class became partly helenised. This helenised process was interrupted by the Roman invasion .(mollosians were totally killed , slaughtered and enslaved by the Romans) .
    or the oposite?
    they were Greeks and aromani who got Albanized

    could be, right|?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
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    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

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    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The theory that Illyrians came from around modern Hungary and headed west and south-west over time has never been disputed , even though it is noted for 100 years before many many historians.

    Illyrians also also attached to
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture

    as Proto-illyrians, again always noted and never disputed.

    Ancient greeks did note that Thracians occupied modern serbia and montenegro before the Illyrians arrived there.
    The problem with ancient Greek writers is that they were too contradictory in too many things. There is not a trusted borderline what was Hyllirian, tracian, dacian, etc. Scutar looks like a tracian word. Although it is just a toponym.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    ha?

    so 1200 AD is before 800 BC?
    I don't see your point here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    ?????

    and I thought that Albanian is language of its own,

    now you mix it again with Greek dialects?
    There was an interference by those ancient Hellenic dialects, on Albanian language. What is the surprise

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    or the oposite?
    they were Greeks and aromani who got Albanized

    could be, right|?
    Or as I would like to say: northwest "Greeks" are hellenized Orthodox Albanians and Aromanis, since they are genetically closer to Albanians than southern Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    No. You misinterpreting my view. Albanians or the Albanian language survived from the Latin influence only on some isolated small pockets throughout south Illyria and Epirus. This is what I read from the serious linguists. Via egnatia was as a Latin gap between the two branches of the Albanian. This gap separated the two branches, but not only these. We had other ancient roads which divided other sub dialects of the Albanian. Ancients roads were a latinized area, where the Albanian language disappeared. If we see the ancient maps where the Roman roads crossed the territory, we will see the map of the division of the modern Albanian dialects. It can't be a coincidence
    If you had ever seen a southern and northern Albanian you'd be certain they are of totally different ethnicity. That is the cause for different language, not the Romans or their road. Only God knows how many peoples were Albanized down there...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    If you had ever seen a southern and northern Albanian you'd be certain they are of totally different ethnicity. That is the cause for different language, not the Romans or their road. Only God knows how many peoples were Albanized down there...
    This is ridiculous to say the least. Different dialect doesn't mean different language/ethnicity. And please show us proof who "Albanized" these people otherwise stop japping your mouth.

    I can't believe I have been arguing with someone who doesn't even know the difference between dialect, language and ethnicity.
    Last edited by Trojet; 03-08-15 at 19:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Or as I would like to say: northwest "Greeks" are hellenized Orthodox Albanians and Aromanis, since they are genetically closer to Albanians than southern Greeks.
    you say so,
    blood nucleotid say different

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    No. As we read from serious linguists, they are not different. They are two branches of the Albanian ethnicity. They have many differences, as already have the Greeks. What is here that you don't understand. I think the first earlier division started 2300 years ago. The Hyllirians of the south, became culturally too close with the Hellenic culture (epirots tribes). Their ruling class became partly helenised. This helenised process was interrupted by the Roman invasion .(mollosians were totally killed , slaughtered and enslaved by the Romans) .
    Considering that the bulk of illyrian tribes sat in Bosnia, slovenia and croatia and that Vudedol culture was proto-Illyrian, the only logical scenario is this

    Bosnia ......were many Illyrians who gained some slavs after 600CE became slavic later

    Croatia .....were illyrians who became slavic due to the settlement of many slavs

    Dalmatia............were illyrian as much as Bosnians who became slavs very late in time.

    slovenian and eastern Austrians ( noricum area )..........were illyrians who became firstly bavarians then slavs , then east austria became bavarian again.

    The percentage of illyrians who became albanians is very very small, we see this in the DNA

    from top to bottom, ......which ancient ethnicity make up the albanians
    Dardanians
    Epirotes
    Macedonians
    Illyrians
    Corinthinan Greeks
    Dorians

    Clearly you must realise that the Ghegs are "proper Albanians" and the Tosks are less so

    But since Brittania states that Albanoi first appeared in 200CE ( common era (after christ )), it would be logical to say from this date, there was no longer any Dardanians, Illyrians and Dorians..so claiming any of these ethnicities is a fabrication
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    And I can't believe that you never answered any of my questions. You want proofs? Test these Albanian kids, and prove yourself they are of same origin :)

    Attachment 7388
    Don't bother with the guy he is not an albanian , does not know the history and only knows the propaganda given to him from the 19th century to today by the Albanian government.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ike please stop commenting. Your comments are embarrassing. Sile, by what I've read, the two major cities in Illyria were Rizon in Montenegro, and Shkodra in Albania. Ironically, these seemed to have been subdued first, while it was the less subdued northern tribes that took part of the "last" revolt against Tiberius' army before the battle of the Teutoburg forest. Russia's biggest part is technically in Asia, but it's the European powers that held the most power. Likewise, the southern tribes, especially the ones that had contact with the Doric world were the biggest centers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    But since Brittania states that Albanoi first appeared in 200CE ( common era (after christ )), it would be logical to say from this date, there was no longer any Dardanians, Illyrians and Dorians..so claiming any of these ethnicities is a fabrication
    Since you like to quote Britannica encyclopedia and are accusing me of "fabricating" history, this is what it says about Albanian history:
    data drawn from history and from linguistic, archaeological, and anthropological studies have led to the conclusion that Albanians are the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians. Similarly, the Albanian language derives from the language of the Illyrians, the transition from Illyrian to Albanian apparently occurring between the 4th and 6th centuries ce.
    and
    Illyrian culture is believed to have evolved from the Stone Age and to have manifested itself in the territory of Albania toward the beginning of the Bronze Age, about 2000 bce). The Illyrians were not a uniform body of people but a conglomeration of many tribes that inhabited the western part of the Balkans, from what is now Slovenia in the northwest to (and including) the region of Epirus, which extends about halfway down the mainland of modern Greece. In general, Illyrians in the highlands of Albania were more isolated than those in the lowlands, and their culture evolved more slowly—a distinction that persisted throughout Albania’s history.
    Not much different from what I have been saying. As we can see now you are the one who fabricates and tries to manipulate my nation's history, so please stop it because you are embarrasing yourself. BTW of course I am Albanian and proud of it. I also carry a Y-DNA haplogroup that the highest percentage is found among Albanians than anywhere else in the world, and is considered a Neolithic Balkan marker:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Since you like to quote Brittanica encyclopedia and are accusing me of "fabricating" history, this is what it says about Albanian history:
    and


    Not much different from what I have been saying. As we can see now you are the one who fabricates and tries to manipulate my nations history, so please stop it because you are embarrasing yourself. BTW of course I am Albanian and proud of it. I also carry a Y-DNA haplogroup that the highest percentage is found among Albanians than anywhere else in the world, and is considered a Neolithic Balkan marker:
    If the Albanoi are first noted in history in the balkans in 200AD and the Illyrians disappeared by 5BC ................then who says the migrating Albanoi can claim Illyrian ethnicity?
    You might as well give Illyrian claims also to croatians, Slovenians, Bosnians and Austrians

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    Sile, actually Paleo Balkanic tribes were mentioned in name up until the start of the Middle Ages. The Great Illyrian revolt happened from 6-9 AD, which is 10-15 years after 5 BC. Illyrians along with Dacians and Thracians were often mentioned up until 500 AD, since many officials of Rome were from here. I guess there could be a possibility that the Albanoi were some sort of Dacian-Thracian tribe that migrated there, but we have no records of such a thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finalise View Post
    Sile, actually Paleo Balkanic tribes were mentioned in name up until the start of the Middle Ages. The Great Illyrian revolt happened from 6-9 AD, which is 10-15 years after 5 BC. Illyrians along with Dacians and Thracians were often mentioned up until 500 AD, since many officials of Rome were from here. I guess there could be a possibility that the Albanoi were some sort of Dacian-Thracian tribe that migrated there, but we have no records of such a thing.
    yes , I stand corrected in the dat eof 9 AD , but the 4 year revolt led by "Bosnian" Illyrians ..led by Bato
    Bato belonged to the indigenous Daesitiates tribe,[2] whose homeland was in what is today central Bosnia, and at the critical point in time he chose to lead his people in their struggle against their Roman occupiers. From 33 BC, the Daesitiates were under Roman rule as a semi-independent peregrine civitas.
    was the last we saw of any illyrians who where externinated and broken up into smaller groups and where resettled in the alps ( austria, italy and switzerland ), france and Britain

    The mix of Illyrian-dacian-thracian was only mentioned in Pannonia ( modern Hungary) , they where also mentioned with celts.

    Pannonia ( hungary ) has been meontioned on more than a few occasions as being the homeland of Illyrians.

    we then have Noricum in Austria as ancient Illyrians who started to merge with the celts in around 700BC
    Last edited by Sile; 04-08-15 at 05:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    No. As we read from serious linguists, they are not different. They are two branches of the Albanian ethnicity. They have many differences, as already have the Greeks....
    Good point. Many ethnicities have branches. Irish people and Welsh people have differences, but are all Celtic. Russians and Poles are both Slavic, but they are not identical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Since you like to quote Britannica encyclopedia and are accusing me of "fabricating" history, this is what it says about Albanian history: ...
    Written by Elez Biberaj.
    Chief, Albanian Service, Voice of America, United States Information Agency, Washington, D.C. Author of Albania: A Socialist Maverick and others.


    You must love USIans for this. OK, for the sixth time - give us facts. How exactly does Albanian descend from Illyrian. Examples, please?




    Which of these tribes were Albanians? Maybe Shqiptars were named Scirtari? I see connection between skirt and tribe of Albanoi that wears kilts.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped.../Illyrians.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Since you like to quote Britannica encyclopedia and are accusing me of "fabricating" history, this is what it says about Albanian history:
    and


    Not much different from what I have been saying. As we can see now you are the one who fabricates and tries to manipulate my nation's history, so please stop it because you are embarrasing yourself. BTW of course I am Albanian and proud of it. I also carry a Y-DNA haplogroup that the highest percentage is found among Albanians than anywhere else in the world, and is considered a Neolithic Balkan marker:
    again you tell us nothing,
    and if your hg is the one I guess then you are a pre-neolithic Thracian Bulgarian

  25. #200
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    yes , I stand corrected in the dat eof 9 AD , but the 4 year revolt led by "Bosnian" Illyrians ..led by Bato
    Bato belonged to the indigenous Daesitiates tribe,[2] whose homeland was in what is today central Bosnia, and at the critical point in time he chose to lead his people in their struggle against their Roman occupiers. From 33 BC, the Daesitiates were under Roman rule as a semi-independent peregrine civitas.
    was the last we saw of any illyrians who where externinated and broken up into smaller groups and where resettled in the alps ( austria, italy and switzerland ), france and Britain

    The mix of Illyrian-dacian-thracian was only mentioned in Pannonia ( modern Hungary) , they where also mentioned with celts.

    Pannonia ( hungary ) has been meontioned on more than a few occasions as being the homeland of Illyrians.

    we then have Noricum in Austria as ancient Illyrians who started to merge with the celts in around 700BC
    I know noricum is where the Illyrian started and descent to limits of Greece,
    I know Roman Illyricum which was not illyria proprie Dicti
    But I do not know Iapyges and othertribes of Illyricum as Illyrians
    besides Demetrius unified Illirians with Greeks in his anti-Roman campaign,
    but nobody mentions the ALBOCENSE

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