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Thread: Were the Croatians originally Slavic?

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    Were the Croatians originally Slavic?

    The question above has always been talked about when visiting croatian friends/families. The arguements range from being forced to become slavic or not. An alphabet ( slovenians as well) which has always been Latin based instead of Cyrillic based. A religion from the west roman empire - Catholic instead of the East Roamn Empire - Orthodox.

    Anyway after reading many books, I decided to ask the question to the slavs in this forum. Link below is interesting

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ins%22&f=false
    Last edited by Taranis; 07-10-11 at 15:38. Reason: Fixed thread title

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    Maybe the Croats where the goths, Avars and other non-slavic people which moved south after the slavic migration into central Europe after 500AD


    There are a number of relevant conclusions that can be drawn from the croatian genetic data.
    First of all it gives strong support to the theory that the region of modern day Croatia served as a refuge for northern populations during the last glacial maximum (LGM). Eastern Adriatic coast was much more to the south, northern and western parts of that sea were steppes and plains, while modern Croatian islands (rich with the archeological sites from Paleolithic) were hills and mountains. After the LGM, the offspring of these survivors (haplogroup I) repopulated much of central-eastern and southeastern Europe. Those who remained in the Balkans were the direct male-line ancestors of about 45% of modern day Croats in Croatia and 73% Croats in Herzegovina.[37]
    It can be said that the Croats are "the most European people", as no other people have such high shares of this major (and likely the only) Paleolithic European haplogroup.
    The second conclusion that can be drawn is that the theory of an Iranian origin has little genetic support. Modern-day Iranians have a significantly different haplogroup distribution, although Iranic speaking communities have lived in eastern Europe. The low frequency of Anatolian haplogroups suggests that agriculture spread into the region of Croatia primarily by way of cultural contact.[39]
    And the third conclusion from the genetic evidence points to the fact Croats are genetically heterogeneous, pointing to a high degree of mixing of the newly arrived medieval migrant tribes (such as Slavs) with the indigenous populations that were already present in the region of the modern day Croatia.[40] Hence, most modern day Croats are directly descended from the original European population of the region and have lived in the territory by other names, such as Illyrians and their forebears. These original inhabitants also served an important role in re-populating Europe after the last ice age

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    First of all, sub variant of haplogroup I spread in western Balkan (and southern Croatia too) is I2a2 Dinaric and there is no single evidence that this haplogroup was in western Balkan since Lgm in continuity. On the contrary all proves suggests that it was spread primeraly with Slavic peoples in 6 th century. It is opinion of all leading geneticists and it was recently incorporated in wikipedia too.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA)
    Croats have high percent of I2a2 Dinaric haplogroup, but only in southern parts of Dalmatia and in Herzegovina region. It is exactly the regions where during Ottoman reign were great migrations of population. Dalmatia for example, change almost entirely its previous medieval population. So, the medieval Croats which lived in Dalmatia moved mostly on islands or northward, or in Italia. New people (mostly I2a2 Dinaric ) came from region of Herzegovina and Montenegro and settled in Dalmatia, and hose were not ethnically Croats, they adopted Croatian name later. They simply called themselves Slavs, like it was in Dubrovnik and very often Serbs.
    The real Croats you may today find in the region of chakavian dialect

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakavian_dialect

    and genetic analisys of island Krk (the real Croats) shows prevalance of haplogroup of R1a over I2a2. The same situation is for the rest of mainland Croatia. So, I do believe that it is possible that Croats were not Slavs initiallly (maybe some Sarmatian or Turkic component among the Slavs) and that they were predominantly R1a.

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    before the slavic invasions in the balkans they weren't.
    they were much akin to neolithic italians i think.. at least those near the coasts, (Croatia and Dalmatia).

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    Never take Wikipedia seriously. It is written by those who support official history. Propaganda tool ...

    iapodos said in short how things really are.

    Who are Croats?

    Well, some are croatised Serbs, some croatised Vlahs or Romanians, Goths, Celtcs, Sarmatians, Avars, and so on, and so on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    First of all, sub variant of haplogroup I spread in western Balkan (and southern Croatia too) is I2a2 Dinaric and there is no single evidence that this haplogroup was in western Balkan since Lgm in continuity. On the contrary all proves suggests that it was spread primeraly with Slavic peoples in 6 th century. It is opinion of all leading geneticists and it was recently incorporated in wikipedia too.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA)
    Croats have high percent of I2a2 Dinaric haplogroup, but only in southern parts of Dalmatia and in Herzegovina region. It is exactly the regions where during Ottoman reign were great migrations of population. Dalmatia for example, change almost entirely its previous medieval population. So, the medieval Croats which lived in Dalmatia moved mostly on islands or northward, or in Italia. New people (mostly I2a2 Dinaric ) came from region of Herzegovina and Montenegro and settled in Dalmatia, and hose were not ethnically Croats, they adopted Croatian name later. They simply called themselves Slavs, like it was in Dubrovnik and very often Serbs.
    The real Croats you may today find in the region of chakavian dialect

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakavian_dialect

    and genetic analisys of island Krk (the real Croats) shows prevalance of haplogroup of R1a over I2a2. The same situation is for the rest of mainland Croatia. So, I do believe that it is possible that Croats were not Slavs initiallly (maybe some Sarmatian or Turkic component among the Slavs) and that they were predominantly R1a.
    so the theory that the croats where originally goths and with this had the I haplo is wrong?

    If what you say is correct , then is the Chakavian dialect the ancient language of the illyrians or lubanini from histria , maybe mixed with latin and Venetian later on?

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    for it is more simple,

    Today all area is named croatia, but from past it is 2 Sub areas, and probably in ancient times there where 2 people,
    Thracians never passed the Dinaric Alps, while Greek settlers stay only in Adra sea,

    to examine Croats better we must divide to 2 primary regions,
    1 is Zagreb, main inland Croatia, and the other is Dalmatia,

    I believe the Croat unification movement so to create a nation, lay between the religion and the language,
    Dalmatians I don't Believe they were Slavic people, while Zagreb people I believe they were. the case of Avars or Huns or Oghurs, I can't tell, although I don't reject it,

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    for it is more simple,

    Today all area is named croatia, but from past it is 2 Sub areas, and probably in ancient times there where 2 people,
    Thracians never passed the Dinaric Alps, while Greek settlers stay only in Adra sea,

    to examine Croats better we must divide to 2 primary regions,
    1 is Zagreb, main inland Croatia, and the other is Dalmatia,

    I believe the Croat unification movement so to create a nation, lay between the religion and the language,
    Dalmatians I don't Believe they were Slavic people, while Zagreb people I believe they were. the case of Avars or Huns or Oghurs, I can't tell, although I don't reject it,
    Dalmatians where illyrian people with there own language
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

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    Land around Zagreb, which are Zagorje, Medimurje, Gorski Kotar, western Slavonia etc., not the city itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Dalmatians where illyrian people with there own language
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

    so you probably agree with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Itas Argis View Post
    Land around Zagreb, which are Zagorje, Medimurje, Gorski Kotar, western Slavonia etc., not the city itself.
    yes that is what i mean.

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    Croatian science about themselves: Croatian genetic heritage: Y-chromosome story

    I'll refrain myself from comments.

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    though when provoked by Croat nationalists, I like to emphasize the clues indicating potential Turkic origin of Croats... I am pretty sure their tribal identity was Slavic, and before that probably Celtic... same holds for Serbs...

    in fact I think I2 are Cimmerians/Gomer people and original Celts but more about that on link http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...ian-parallels/


    Russian primary chronicle enlists Croats (as well as Serbs and Carantanians (Slovene of today) in Danubian Slavs...according to it they have migrated to north due to pressure of Vlakhs (read Roman empire) to the lands of Lyakhs (read Lech or Poles)

    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina, and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from
    this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod. Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians.Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf



    Byzantine emperor historian places white Serbia in land they themselves called Boika thast he places beyond Turkia( = north of Hungary) neighbouring white Croatia and Frankia ...from many reasons this land can only be Bohemia... according to him they have also originally dwelt there and we know that Celtic Boii originally dwelt there and that Celtic Scordisci spread roughly from there to area of Serbia...and that from Serbia they entered Thrace and Asia minor as Celtic Serdi...

    white Croatia would be Slavic settled area east of white Serbia ... roughly Slovakia, south Poland, west Ukraine.... the core of this white Croatia is more or less Galicia which is same as Bohemia local source of I2a2...

    very term Galicia tells us that these people might have originally been Gals or Celts, perhaps a branch of Helveti... Celtic ancestors of Serbs on other hand would be Scordisci/Serdi /Boii..

    Byzantine emperor historian tells us that both Croats and Serbs were called "white" prior to Balkan settlement... this could be same as Wends/Vindelici/Veneti.... Sorbs of east Germany (in Serbia known as Lusatian Serbs) are still called Wends.. Vindelici are Celtic people..

    http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false

    look at Galicia area in east Europe
    term is clearly same origin as Galatia in Asia minor and Galia in France, that is about Celtic settlement ...




    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)

    those are cores of I2a areas...




    white Croatia is considered more or less same area as Galicia... now look at early Slavic tribes... in Galicia are white Croats...



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Slavic_states

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    as per link

    http://www.cmj.hr/2005/46/4/16100752.pdf

    it seems, that croatians in the north , istria etc are R1b , the inland ones are R1a and the southern ones are I - P37 ( old illyrian marker )

    are people sure the I2 marker does not originate form the I1 marker from scandinavia?

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    i can see you dont know much, Croatian write in latin, but original script was glagolithic

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Maybe the Croats where the goths, Avars and other non-slavic people which moved south after the slavic migration into central Europe after 500AD


    There are a number of relevant conclusions that can be drawn from the croatian genetic data.
    First of all it gives strong support to the theory that the region of modern day Croatia served as a refuge for northern populations during the last glacial maximum (LGM). Eastern Adriatic coast was much more to the south, northern and western parts of that sea were steppes and plains, while modern Croatian islands (rich with the archeological sites from Paleolithic) were hills and mountains. After the LGM, the offspring of these survivors (haplogroup I) repopulated much of central-eastern and southeastern Europe. Those who remained in the Balkans were the direct male-line ancestors of about 45% of modern day Croats in Croatia and 73% Croats in Herzegovina.[37]
    It can be said that the Croats are "the most European people", as no other people have such high shares of this major (and likely the only) Paleolithic European haplogroup.
    The second conclusion that can be drawn is that the theory of an Iranian origin has little genetic support. Modern-day Iranians have a significantly different haplogroup distribution, although Iranic speaking communities have lived in eastern Europe. The low frequency of Anatolian haplogroups suggests that agriculture spread into the region of Croatia primarily by way of cultural contact.[39]
    And the third conclusion from the genetic evidence points to the fact Croats are genetically heterogeneous, pointing to a high degree of mixing of the newly arrived medieval migrant tribes (such as Slavs) with the indigenous populations that were already present in the region of the modern day Croatia.[40] Hence, most modern day Croats are directly descended from the original European population of the region and have lived in the territory by other names, such as Illyrians and their forebears. These original inhabitants also served an important role in re-populating Europe after the last ice age
    there was a goth theory, infact one of the early traveling writers from 11 century called us Goths (pop Dukljanin), we were those Ggoths that lived with Slavs(Sarmats) and formed early Rus' state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    First of all, sub variant of haplogroup I spread in western Balkan (and southern Croatia too) is I2a2 Dinaric and there is no single evidence that this haplogroup was in western Balkan since Lgm in continuity. On the contrary all proves suggests that it was spread primeraly with Slavic peoples in 6 th century. It is opinion of all leading geneticists and it was recently incorporated in wikipedia too.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA)
    Croats have high percent of I2a2 Dinaric haplogroup, but only in southern parts of Dalmatia and in Herzegovina region. It is exactly the regions where during Ottoman reign were great migrations of population. Dalmatia for example, change almost entirely its previous medieval population. So, the medieval Croats which lived in Dalmatia moved mostly on islands or northward, or in Italia. New people (mostly I2a2 Dinaric ) came from region of Herzegovina and Montenegro and settled in Dalmatia, and hose were not ethnically Croats, they adopted Croatian name later. They simply called themselves Slavs, like it was in Dubrovnik and very often Serbs.
    The real Croats you may today find in the region of chakavian dialect

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakavian_dialect

    and genetic analisys of island Krk (the real Croats) shows prevalance of haplogroup of R1a over I2a2. The same situation is for the rest of mainland Croatia. So, I do believe that it is possible that Croats were not Slavs initiallly (maybe some Sarmatian or Turkic component among the Slavs) and that they were predominantly R1a.
    lol gypsy full of shit as always, on tests made on people from Zagerb, 64% of them where I2a2, as for Slavonia where is I the lowest(34%) was tested at Osijek, near Serbia and Hungary border, where people actually have most varied roots, as well as Istra , and NW near border

    As for chakavian, it was earliest Croatian dialect, and its full of words with Gothic roots, and you dont even know to speak Serbian after turks and Karadžićevog prijepisa hehehe

    Naime oko 1/5 do 1/4 germanizama koji su u Jugoslaviji pogrešno pripisani utjecaju Austro-Ugarske, ustvari su rani gotski arhaizmi predslavenskih Hrvata. Tih je najmanje u štokavštini, a puno više u kajkavskim i čakavskim govorima gdje su se većinom održali do danas.
    Tek malobrojni primjeri tih gotskih arhaizama očuvanih u književnoj štokavštini su: bota (bod: čakav. bot), frisiaz (frizura-češljanje), lekeis (liječnik), lekinassus (ljekovit), nu (ali-no), pops (pop-svećenik), skrizis (križ), smakka (smokva), stiurjan (stvoriti: čakav. storit), swaikra (svekrva), swairban (svrbiti), thaurna (trnje: čak. tarnak), weihitha (vještica), wopjan (vapiti-zapomagati), weinagards (vinograd) i wraks (vrag-đavo).
    Znatno ih je više (preko 100) bilo u javnom kultiviranom hrvatskom prije 1918, koji su sad uklonjeni ali su ih još zadržali čakavci i kajkavci (Lovrić i surad. 2005-2007): uz gore spomenute još npr. bandi (strana: ča. banda), daughtar (udavača: ča. dotarica), flodra (podstava: kaj. futar), hropjan (krkljati: kaj.ča. hropiti), ja (da-jeste: kaj.ča. ja), saj (taj: ča. sej), skiuban (očerupati: kaj.ča. skubiti), skura (mračno: kaj.ča. škuro), skuran (smrknuti: ča. škurit), tekan (dirati: kaj. teknuti), thiuda (mnoštvo: ča. čuda), wazgo (upaliti: ča. vazgat) ... itd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    before the slavic invasions in the balkans they weren't.
    they were much akin to neolithic italians i think.. at least those near the coasts, (Croatia and Dalmatia).

    not really, modern Italian and Croats are not similar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itas Argis View Post
    Never take Wikipedia seriously. It is written by those who support official history. Propaganda tool ...

    iapodos said in short how things really are.

    Who are Croats?

    Well, some are croatised Serbs, some croatised Vlahs or Romanians, Goths, Celtcs, Sarmatians, Avars, and so on, and so on...
    Hehe, Croats are in Upper part of homogeneity of Europe, Serbs are at the very bottom.

    I mean with mentality you Serbs have, with stories where all Europeans descendant of Serbs, i am not surprised at all.

    You know what that means in terms of assimilation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    so the theory that the croats where originally goths and with this had the I haplo is wrong?

    If what you say is correct , then is the Chakavian dialect the ancient language of the illyrians or lubanini from histria , maybe mixed with latin and Venetian later on?
    That gypsy is talking BS lol, its comparative to trash scavenger talking about quantum physics.

    Usually from some standpoint of Serb farytails, where all white people on Earth are descendants of Serbs.

    Funny thing is that Serbs were always called Vlach by us, even today in some areas its common.
    They, with help of ottoman buddies were very active in Bosnia, they spread or assimilated like bacterial infection.

    I can always recognize a true Serb, he looks like North African.
    We see them as sort of malign gypsies.
    They are like pests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    for it is more simple,

    Today all area is named croatia, but from past it is 2 Sub areas, and probably in ancient times there where 2 people,
    Thracians never passed the Dinaric Alps, while Greek settlers stay only in Adra sea,

    to examine Croats better we must divide to 2 primary regions,
    1 is Zagreb, main inland Croatia, and the other is Dalmatia,

    I believe the Croat unification movement so to create a nation, lay between the religion and the language,
    Dalmatians I don't Believe they were Slavic people, while Zagreb people I believe they were. the case of Avars or Huns or Oghurs, I can't tell, although I don't reject it,
    Again, you are talking out of your ass

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    though when provoked by Croat nationalists, I like to emphasize the clues indicating potential Turkic origin of Croats... I am pretty sure their tribal identity was Slavic, and before that probably Celtic... same holds for Serbs...

    in fact I think I2 are Cimmerians/Gomer people and original Celts but more about that on link http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...ian-parallels/


    Russian primary chronicle enlists Croats (as well as Serbs and Carantanians (Slovene of today) in Danubian Slavs...according to it they have migrated to north due to pressure of Vlakhs (read Roman empire) to the lands of Lyakhs (read Lech or Poles)



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf



    Byzantine emperor historian places white Serbia in land they themselves called Boika thast he places beyond Turkia( = north of Hungary) neighbouring white Croatia and Frankia ...from many reasons this land can only be Bohemia... according to him they have also originally dwelt there and we know that Celtic Boii originally dwelt there and that Celtic Scordisci spread roughly from there to area of Serbia...and that from Serbia they entered Thrace and Asia minor as Celtic Serdi...

    white Croatia would be Slavic settled area east of white Serbia ... roughly Slovakia, south Poland, west Ukraine.... the core of this white Croatia is more or less Galicia which is same as Bohemia local source of I2a2...

    very term Galicia tells us that these people might have originally been Gals or Celts, perhaps a branch of Helveti... Celtic ancestors of Serbs on other hand would be Scordisci/Serdi /Boii..

    Byzantine emperor historian tells us that both Croats and Serbs were called "white" prior to Balkan settlement... this could be same as Wends/Vindelici/Veneti.... Sorbs of east Germany (in Serbia known as Lusatian Serbs) are still called Wends.. Vindelici are Celtic people..

    http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false

    look at Galicia area in east Europe
    term is clearly same origin as Galatia in Asia minor and Galia in France, that is about Celtic settlement ...




    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)

    those are cores of I2a areas...




    white Croatia is considered more or less same area as Galicia... now look at early Slavic tribes... in Galicia are white Croats...



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Slavic_states

    Its enough to go into Serbia, and look at the people, you guys(most of you) can pass as N. African, Levantine or Turk.
    Your 3 fingers salute theory of Serbs was funniest one( since you even dont know recent history), as well your theories as Proto Serbs= ancestor of Germans.

    That map of I2a2 is incorrect, since Serbs from Bosnia ( and they territoriality hold 50% of it) have less of it than Croatians from Slavonia.


    Didn't even had the need to read rest of your post.
    Your theoris in general, are typical for Serb, a nation without their own culture or language, infested with low self esteem, overcompensating in search for better past

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Dalmatians where illyrian people with there own language
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language
    Dalmatian, was used to communicate with latinized/Italian minority during middle ages, it is language similar to Venetian.
    It was used longest in Dubrovnik, as they were independent City-state that had political contact with Venetians a lot.

    Oldest artifacts, and texts written in Croatian glagolithic script are in fact from Dalmatian region, Dalmatian wasnt even called Dalmatia after Croats settled, it was called Croatia. Only after Venetian took over it was renamed Dalmatia.
    It was a core of Croatia, and from dalmatia Croatians expanded northwards towards Slavinje/Zagreb.


    ____________________

    you serbs are actually very similar to these guys, as i know one of your distinguished "historian" claimed Greeks also




    ... must be those "Egyptian" genes eh!
    Last edited by Dalmat; 22-07-11 at 09:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    Dalmatian, was used to communicate with latinized/Italian minority during middle ages, it is language similar to Venetian.
    It was used longest in Dubrovnik, as they were independent City-state that had political contact with Venetians a lot.

    Oldest artifacts, and texts written in Croatian glagolithic script are in fact from Dalmatian region, Dalmatian wasnt even called Dalmatia after Croats settled, it was called Croatia. Only after Venetian took over it was renamed Dalmatia.
    It was a core of Croatia, and from dalmatia Croatians expanded northwards towards Slavinje/Zagreb.


    ____________________

    you serbs are actually very similar to these guys, as i know one of your distinguished "historian" claimed Greeks also




    ... must be those "Egyptian" genes eh!
    As for my question, are croats originally slavs. Can you answer this,

    its a pity that the croats renamed ragusa into dubrovnik , this distorts history, you do not see a name change for the veneti in ancient or modern times, you do not see much of a name change from etruscan to tuscan, sicel to sicilian, lombard to lombardia. ............. if in roman times the dalmatian coast was Dalmatae , it would always remain so named in italian people. Same as there is always a Constantinople and not a Istanbul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    First of all, sub variant of haplogroup I spread in western Balkan (and southern Croatia too) is I2a2 Dinaric and there is no single evidence that this haplogroup was in western Balkan since Lgm in continuity. On the contrary all proves suggests that it was spread primeraly with Slavic peoples in 6 th century. It is opinion of all leading geneticists and it was recently incorporated in wikipedia too.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA)
    Croats have high percent of I2a2 Dinaric haplogroup, but only in southern parts of Dalmatia and in Herzegovina region. It is exactly the regions where during Ottoman reign were great migrations of population. Dalmatia for example, change almost entirely its previous medieval population. So, the medieval Croats which lived in Dalmatia moved mostly on islands or northward, or in Italia. New people (mostly I2a2 Dinaric ) came from region of Herzegovina and Montenegro and settled in Dalmatia, and hose were not ethnically Croats, they adopted Croatian name later. They simply called themselves Slavs, like it was in Dubrovnik and very often Serbs.
    The real Croats you may today find in the region of chakavian dialect

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakavian_dialect

    and genetic analisys of island Krk (the real Croats) shows prevalance of haplogroup of R1a over I2a2. The same situation is for the rest of mainland Croatia. So, I do believe that it is possible that Croats were not Slavs initiallly (maybe some Sarmatian or Turkic component among the Slavs) and that they were predominantly R1a.
    It is true that I2a2 is probably not hier since LGM because it would be more equaly disperced like mthDNA haplogroups that are in Europe since LGM . Few strong clusters of I2a2 could sugest and total apsence on other regions showing it is haplogroup that have mooved recently ( compared to LGM ) . Also it is to young to be hier since LGM , and there is not much divercity which should be expected if that is the case . But there is also no any evidence that I2a2 is Slavic , first Slavs are formed recently , Jordanes mentions they were called diferently ( Spores ) , so they would carry mainly Scythian R1a - around Pripyat were is probably originating place of Slavic languague , and some I2a2 received by mixing with Sarmatians who use to rule over them . I2a2 in Ukraine is of Roxolans who use to live there , in Moldavia and Romania from Ants also Sarmatian tribe - you can say by they names , in Hungary by Yaziges , in Czech, Bavaria and Saxonia Anhalt by Serbs and Croats , in Aragon in Spain , Sardinia and Lybia by Alans and Vandals , ... Pliny cleary says Serboi/Siraci and Haruatas were Sarmatians .
    After they gain Dalmatia from Turks Austrians resetled Croats that have escaped in todays Slovenia back in Dalmatia , only small percentage of Dalmatian catolics are Serbs that converted to catholicism . Islands ( Krk) are actually better for observing situation before settling of Croats because they are the places were old population have survived Avar attacks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    That gypsy is talking BS lol, its comparative to trash scavenger talking about quantum physics.

    Usually from some standpoint of Serb farytails, where all white people on Earth are descendants of Serbs.

    Funny thing is that Serbs were always called Vlach by us, even today in some areas its common.
    They, with help of ottoman buddies were very active in Bosnia, they spread or assimilated like bacterial infection.

    I can always recognize a true Serb, he looks like North African.
    We see them as sort of malign gypsies.
    They are like pests.
    Serbs and Croats have same Sarmatian origins , so if Serbs are gypsies so Croats are . Yo u called Serbs Vlachs because it is specific millitary cast in Ottoman Turkic state - they dont pay all taxes , geting land for plaughing and make war for that . Because Serbs were brought to Croatia and Bosanska Krajina ( land setled by Croatians - speacked and writed Ikavski during Midle Ages) in that status by Turks you called them Vlachs .It is true that Serbs use to mix with indigenous populations more then Croatians ( E1b1b , J ,G ) but genes are yet very simillar

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