Were the Croatians originally Slavic?

[Piro Ilir]

The question is, ............IMO, the Ghegs and Tosks are a completely different ethnic race from each other in ancient times. Different, in culture, language and DNA

No. As we read from serious linguists, they are not different. They are two branches of the Albanian ethnicity. They have many differences, as already have the Greeks. What is here that you don't understand. I think the first earlier division started 2300 years ago. The Hyllirians of the south, became culturally too close with the Hellenic culture (epirots tribes). Their ruling class became partly helenised. This helenised process was interrupted by the Roman invasion .(mollosians were totally killed , slaughtered and enslaved by the Romans) .

 

[Yetos]

No. As we read from serious linguists, they are not different. They are two branches of the Albanian ethnicity. They have many differences, as already have the Greeks. What is here that you don't understand. I think the first earlier division started 2300 years ago. The Hyllirians of the south, became culturally too close with the Hellenic culture (epirots tribes). Their ruling class became partly helenised. This helenised process was interrupted by the Roman invasion .(mollosians were totally killed , slaughtered and enslaved by the Romans) .

or the oposite?
they were Greeks and aromani who got Albanized

could be, right|?

 

[Piro Ilir]

The theory that Illyrians came from around modern Hungary and headed west and south-west over time has never been disputed , even though it is noted for 100 years before many many historians.

Illyrians also also attached to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vučedol_culture

as Proto-illyrians, again always noted and never disputed.

Ancient greeks did note that Thracians occupied modern serbia and montenegro before the Illyrians arrived there.

The problem with ancient Greek writers is that they were too contradictory in too many things. There is not a trusted borderline what was Hyllirian, tracian, dacian, etc. Scutar looks like a tracian word. Although it is just a toponym.

 

[Piro Ilir]

ha?

so 1200 AD is before 800 BC?

I don't see your point here

 

[Piro Ilir]

?????

and I thought that Albanian is language of its own,

now you mix it again with Greek dialects?

There was an interference by those ancient Hellenic dialects, on Albanian language. What is the surprise

 

[Trojet]

or the oposite?
they were Greeks and aromani who got Albanized

could be, right|?

Or as I would like to say: northwest "Greeks" are hellenized Orthodox Albanians and Aromanis, since they are genetically closer to Albanians than southern Greeks.

 

[Ike]

No. You misinterpreting my view. Albanians or the Albanian language survived from the Latin influence only on some isolated small pockets throughout south Illyria and Epirus. This is what I read from the serious linguists. Via egnatia was as a Latin gap between the two branches of the Albanian. This gap separated the two branches, but not only these. We had other ancient roads which divided other sub dialects of the Albanian. Ancients roads were a latinized area, where the Albanian language disappeared. If we see the ancient maps where the Roman roads crossed the territory, we will see the map of the division of the modern Albanian dialects. It can't be a coincidence

If you had ever seen a southern and northern Albanian you'd be certain they are of totally different ethnicity. That is the cause for different language, not the Romans or their road. Only God knows how many peoples were Albanized down there...

 

[Trojet]

If you had ever seen a southern and northern Albanian you'd be certain they are of totally different ethnicity. That is the cause for different language, not the Romans or their road. Only God knows how many peoples were Albanized down there...

This is ridiculous to say the least. Different dialect doesn't mean different language/ethnicity. And please show us proof who "Albanized" these people otherwise stop japping your mouth.

I can't believe I have been arguing with someone who doesn't even know the difference between dialect, language and ethnicity.

 

[Yetos]

Or as I would like to say: northwest "Greeks" are hellenized Orthodox Albanians and Aromanis, since they are genetically closer to Albanians than southern Greeks.

you say so,
blood nucleotid say different

 

[Sile]

No. As we read from serious linguists, they are not different. They are two branches of the Albanian ethnicity. They have many differences, as already have the Greeks. What is here that you don't understand. I think the first earlier division started 2300 years ago. The Hyllirians of the south, became culturally too close with the Hellenic culture (epirots tribes). Their ruling class became partly helenised. This helenised process was interrupted by the Roman invasion .(mollosians were totally killed , slaughtered and enslaved by the Romans) .

Considering that the bulk of illyrian tribes sat in Bosnia, slovenia and croatia and that Vudedol culture was proto-Illyrian, the only logical scenario is this

Bosnia ......were many Illyrians who gained some slavs after 600CE became slavic later

Croatia .....were illyrians who became slavic due to the settlement of many slavs

Dalmatia............were illyrian as much as Bosnians who became slavs very late in time.

slovenian and eastern Austrians ( noricum area )..........were illyrians who became firstly bavarians then slavs , then east austria became bavarian again.

The percentage of illyrians who became albanians is very very small, we see this in the DNA

from top to bottom, ......which ancient ethnicity make up the albanians
Dardanians
Epirotes
Macedonians
Illyrians
Corinthinan Greeks
Dorians

Clearly you must realise that the Ghegs are "proper Albanians" and the Tosks are less so

But since Brittania states that Albanoi first appeared in 200CE ( common era (after christ )), it would be logical to say from this date, there was no longer any Dardanians, Illyrians and Dorians..so claiming any of these ethnicities is a fabrication

 

[Sile]

And I can't believe that you never answered any of my questions. You want proofs? Test these Albanian kids, and prove yourself they are of same origin

View attachment 7388

Don't bother with the guy he is not an albanian , does not know the history and only knows the propaganda given to him from the 19th century to today by the Albanian government.

 

[Finalise]

Ike please stop commenting. Your comments are embarrassing. Sile, by what I've read, the two major cities in Illyria were Rizon in Montenegro, and Shkodra in Albania. Ironically, these seemed to have been subdued first, while it was the less subdued northern tribes that took part of the "last" revolt against Tiberius' army before the battle of the Teutoburg forest. Russia's biggest part is technically in Asia, but it's the European powers that held the most power. Likewise, the southern tribes, especially the ones that had contact with the Doric world were the biggest centers.

 

[Trojet]

But since Brittania states that Albanoi first appeared in 200CE ( common era (after christ )), it would be logical to say from this date, there was no longer any Dardanians, Illyrians and Dorians..so claiming any of these ethnicities is a fabrication

Since you like to quote Britannica encyclopedia and are accusing me of "fabricating" history, this is what it says about Albanian history:

data drawn from history and from linguistic, archaeological, and anthropological studies have led to the conclusion that Albanians are the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians. Similarly, the Albanian language derives from the language of the Illyrians, the transition from Illyrian to Albanian apparently occurring between the 4th and 6th centuries ce.

and

Illyrian culture is believed to have evolved from the Stone Age and to have manifested itself in the territory of Albania toward the beginning of the Bronze Age, about 2000 bce). The Illyrians were not a uniform body of people but a conglomeration of many tribes that inhabited the western part of the Balkans, from what is now Slovenia in the northwest to (and including) the region of Epirus, which extends about halfway down the mainland of modern Greece. In general, Illyrians in the highlands of Albania were more isolated than those in the lowlands, and their culture evolved more slowly—a distinction that persisted throughout Albania’s history.

Not much different from what I have been saying. As we can see now you are the one who fabricates and tries to manipulate my nation's history, so please stop it because you are embarrasing yourself. BTW of course I am Albanian and proud of it. I also carry a Y-DNA haplogroup that the highest percentage is found among Albanians than anywhere else in the world, and is considered a Neolithic Balkan marker:

 

[Sile]

Since you like to quote Brittanica encyclopedia and are accusing me of "fabricating" history, this is what it says about Albanian history:
and


Not much different from what I have been saying. As we can see now you are the one who fabricates and tries to manipulate my nations history, so please stop it because you are embarrasing yourself. BTW of course I am Albanian and proud of it. I also carry a Y-DNA haplogroup that the highest percentage is found among Albanians than anywhere else in the world, and is considered a Neolithic Balkan marker:

If the Albanoi are first noted in history in the balkans in 200AD and the Illyrians disappeared by 5BC ................then who says the migrating Albanoi can claim Illyrian ethnicity?
You might as well give Illyrian claims also to croatians, Slovenians, Bosnians and Austrians

 

[Finalise]

Sile, actually Paleo Balkanic tribes were mentioned in name up until the start of the Middle Ages. The Great Illyrian revolt happened from 6-9 AD, which is 10-15 years after 5 BC. Illyrians along with Dacians and Thracians were often mentioned up until 500 AD, since many officials of Rome were from here. I guess there could be a possibility that the Albanoi were some sort of Dacian-Thracian tribe that migrated there, but we have no records of such a thing.

 

[Sile]

Sile, actually Paleo Balkanic tribes were mentioned in name up until the start of the Middle Ages. The Great Illyrian revolt happened from 6-9 AD, which is 10-15 years after 5 BC. Illyrians along with Dacians and Thracians were often mentioned up until 500 AD, since many officials of Rome were from here. I guess there could be a possibility that the Albanoi were some sort of Dacian-Thracian tribe that migrated there, but we have no records of such a thing.

yes , I stand corrected in the dat eof 9 AD , but the 4 year revolt led by "Bosnian" Illyrians ..led by Bato
Bato belonged to the indigenous Daesitiates tribe,^[2] whose homeland was in what is today central Bosnia, and at the critical point in time he chose to lead his people in their struggle against their Roman occupiers. From 33 BC, the Daesitiates were under Roman rule as a semi-independent peregrine civitas.
was the last we saw of any illyrians who where externinated and broken up into smaller groups and where resettled in the alps ( austria, italy and switzerland ), france and Britain

The mix of Illyrian-dacian-thracian was only mentioned in Pannonia ( modern Hungary) , they where also mentioned with celts.

Pannonia ( hungary ) has been meontioned on more than a few occasions as being the homeland of Illyrians.

we then have Noricum in Austria as ancient Illyrians who started to merge with the celts in around 700BC

 

[RobertColumbia]

No. As we read from serious linguists, they are not different. They are two branches of the Albanian ethnicity. They have many differences, as already have the Greeks....

Good point. Many ethnicities have branches. Irish people and Welsh people have differences, but are all Celtic. Russians and Poles are both Slavic, but they are not identical.

 

[Ike]

Since you like to quote Britannica encyclopedia and are accusing me of "fabricating" history, this is what it says about Albanian history: ...

Written by Elez Biberaj.
Chief, Albanian Service, Voice of America, United States Information Agency, Washington, D.C. Author of Albania: A Socialist Maverick and others.

You must love USIans for this. OK, for the sixth time - give us facts. How exactly does Albanian descend from Illyrian. Examples, please?




Which of these tribes were Albanians? Maybe Shqiptars were named Scirtari? I see connection between skirt and tribe of Albanoi that wears kilts.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Illyrians.jpg

 

[Yetos]

Since you like to quote Britannica encyclopedia and are accusing me of "fabricating" history, this is what it says about Albanian history:
and


Not much different from what I have been saying. As we can see now you are the one who fabricates and tries to manipulate my nation's history, so please stop it because you are embarrasing yourself. BTW of course I am Albanian and proud of it. I also carry a Y-DNA haplogroup that the highest percentage is found among Albanians than anywhere else in the world, and is considered a Neolithic Balkan marker:

again you tell us nothing,
and if your hg is the one I guess then you are a pre-neolithic Thracian Bulgarian

 

[Yetos]

yes , I stand corrected in the dat eof 9 AD , but the 4 year revolt led by "Bosnian" Illyrians ..led by Bato
Bato belonged to the indigenous Daesitiates tribe,^[2] whose homeland was in what is today central Bosnia, and at the critical point in time he chose to lead his people in their struggle against their Roman occupiers. From 33 BC, the Daesitiates were under Roman rule as a semi-independent peregrine civitas.
was the last we saw of any illyrians who where externinated and broken up into smaller groups and where resettled in the alps ( austria, italy and switzerland ), france and Britain

The mix of Illyrian-dacian-thracian was only mentioned in Pannonia ( modern Hungary) , they where also mentioned with celts.

Pannonia ( hungary ) has been meontioned on more than a few occasions as being the homeland of Illyrians.

we then have Noricum in Austria as ancient Illyrians who started to merge with the celts in around 700BC

I know noricum is where the Illyrian started and descent to limits of Greece,
I know Roman Illyricum which was not illyria proprie Dicti
But I do not know Iapyges and othertribes of Illyricum as Illyrians
besides Demetrius unified Illirians with Greeks in his anti-Roman campaign,
but nobody mentions the ALBOCENSE