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Thread: Majority of haplogroup G found in a French Neolithic site

  1. #26
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    No, I am not contradicting myself. I never said that the Greeks progressively moved up to northern Europe. Their haplogroups may have, after mixing with Italian people after settling in South Italy, then mixing with Gauls, then mixing with Germans, etc. so that, after hundreds of generations, only a fraction of the original Greek genes besides the Y-chromosome remained when the carriers of E-J-T haplogroups reached northern Europe.

    I was rather suggesting that E/J spread progressively from the Roman period until modern times by the constant movement of population and intermarriages within Europe. Most people may only move 5 or 10 km away from their birthplace (more since modern transportation), but that is enough to spread haplogroups in every directions on hundreds, then thousands of kilometres as centuries and millennia pass by. The more time passes the more mixed up haplogroups become within a population with open boundaries. The only things that tend to slow down the mixing process are language boundaries and geographic obstacles like seas of high mountains. Nevertheless no obstacle is impassable. Seas are crossed (though more slowly than on land) and languages evolve and get replaced over time.

    To sum up, I think that there were several major migrations of E-J-T from Mesopotamia and the Levant to Anatolia, Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age. This included the Minoans, Phoenicians and Etruscans. Then the Greeks started setting up colonies from around the Mediterranean (especially South Italy and the southern coast of France as far as Europe is concerned). The Romans further spread E-J-T throughout their empire, and settled particularly heavily in south-eastern France, which had a climate and geography similar to Italy. The descendants of the Romans all over the empire had their own children, who moved in all directions over the centuries, spreading E-J-T around various European countries, and progressively across borders towards northern and eastern Europe, a process that is still ongoing today.

    If this theory is true, we shouldn't find haplogroups E-J-T in northern Europe, including northern France, Germany and Poland during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. It would be unlikely to find E-J-T outside the borders of the Roman Empire (e.g. in Ireland, Scotland, Scandinavia, North Germany or Poland) before the medieval period. There isn't exactly a wealth of ancient DNA available, but among the results available, the oldest E-J-T in northern Europe is a E1b1b in northern Germany dating from only 800 years ago. All the other results from Germany were haplogroups G2a, I1, I2b, R1a and R1b. Not a single E1b1b, J1, J2 or T before 1200 CE so far. This would be strange if they arrived during the Neolithic or Bronze Age considering that E-J-T represent as much as 16% of German haplogroups today.
    Ah, I see now what you're trying to say there. That would make perfect sense, well... at least with Haplogroup J2. Looking at the patterns of distribution again, I suspect there may be other patterns at work also with Haplogroups E and T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elghund View Post
    If R1b is going to be found in the Mesolthic area anywhere, where would it be found? The Ukraine or Turkey or elsewhere?
    During the Mesolithic or Paleolithic, I would say neither. R1b was probably still wandering somewhere between Central Asia and the Middle East, perhaps around modern Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq. It is only around the very beginning of the Neolithic (shortly before or shortly after) that R1b settled down in one place, which I estimate to be the southern Caucasus, northern Mesopotamia and/or northern Anatolia. Either R1b people had something to do with the beginning of agriculture, or more likely, they were pushed north by early Mesopotamian farmers to northern Turkey, then moved across the Caucasus (along with a minority of G2a3b1 people) where they met and mingled with R1a people in the Pontic steppe, bringing with them domesticated animals that would lead to the nomadic pastoralist lifestyle of the steppe people.

    This migration could have taken place between 7000 and 5000 BCE. I like to think it was before 6500 BCE because the level of the Black Sea was lower at the time, which made the crossing of the Caucasus along the coast easier than it is today. The deluge of 6500 BCE could also have been the reason why they moved north, losing a big part of their North Anatolian homeland. Alternatively, we could imagine that they had already colonised all the eastern Black Sea shore before the deluge, and that the sudden rise of the sea level cut the R1b society in two groups : Anatolian and Pontic steppe.

    The Proto-Indo-European language probably evolved from the language spoken by these early Neolithic R1b in northern Anatolia. Proto-IE shows influences of Caucasian, Hurrian and Semitic languages, which were all neighbours (Caucasian being G2a, Hurrian G2a and/or J2 and Semitic E1b1b and J1). This explains why Antolian branches of IE languages (like Hittite) are more archaic than all the other branches, which evolved after the "exodus" to the steppes.

    I made a Flash map (almost exactly two years ago, in May 2009) illustrating the historical migration of R1b through the ages.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    There might be another possibility. J E T were already in bronze age in Europe but existed in separate communities, didn't have time to mix with local I and G yet. Whatever the sites where tested might have been not settled by J E T, which preferred other locations.
    Just a thought.
    It is possible indeed. But all early farmers in eastern and central Europe evolved from the tiny Sesklo culture in Thessaly. LBK samples showed only F and G2a (F could be Caucasian but just as well indigenous European Cro-Magnon). There was only one clearly separate diffusion of agriculture from the Danubian route, and it was the Mediterranean route. Since it was recently shown to be clearly G2a, I think that the most likely is that J-E-T arrived later. It's hard to imagine how whole communities with a single point of origin and a small founding population could end up with one village being exclusively G2a and others having plenty of E1b1b, J1, J2 or T. Unless this Treilles site was just a single big family with one grand-father, many fathers and many many boys. But then why would Sardinia have so much G2a and I2a but very little J-E-T outside the areas settled by the Phoenicians and Romans ?

    I agree that a latter Neolithic wave, recolonising all the territories already settled by G2a, is possible. However they would have needed some sort of military advantage to dislocate the long established G2a communities. This is why the Bronze Age is more likely, since it was the single biggest evolution in military technology since the invention of wooden and stone weapons by, who knows, Australopithecus (?).

    Yet, I am pretty sure that the Pontic steppe nomads had a better chance of invading Europe first, before Middle Easterners. The reason is fourfold :

    a) steppe nomads were mobile (not tied to land like farmers) and prone to migrations in search of new land for the herds, especially if the weather had been bad, or on the contrary if it was too good and their population was increasing too fast.

    b) the Bronze Age started around the Caucasus, far from Greece, but next-door to the North Caucasus and the Pontic steppes. It is proven archaeologically that Bronze technology reached the steppe very early, notably the Maykop culture and the related Kemi Oba culture, which started around 3700 BCE, well before the Mesopotamian Bronze Age (2900 BCE), Levant Bronze Age (1850 BCE), Anatolian Bronze Age (1700 BCE), Greek Bronze Age (1450 BCE), or even the Egyptian Bronze Age (3150 BCE). The world's first sword (of course made of bronze) was found in the Maykop culture. Armed with bronze swords and axes, they would have been unrivalled against other people on Earth armed with wooden and stone weapons.

    c) these steppe nomads had the great advantage of being the world's only horse riders at the time, a tremendous military advantage but also a unique way of moving very fast across the continent.

    d) there is ample archaeological evidence of Bronze Age migrations from the Pontic steppes towards Europe, followed by the destruction of the early cities of Old Europe (Neolithic settlements of the Balkans and the Danubian basin).

    The steppe people had Bronze weapons earlier, moved faster, had better reasons to seek new land, less attachment to their own land, and clearly did invade Europe in the Bronze Age. Once they had settled in Europe, it would have been extremely hard for Middle Easterners to penetrate into Europe. Indo-European weapons around 3500 BCE were nearly as good (though less beautifully crafted) as that of the Celtic weapons against which the Greeks and Romans fought (those Gauls that plundered Rome twice and Delphi once), those feared by Alexander the Great himself.

    So unless these Indo-Europeans were not just R1b, G2a3b1 and R1a, but also included E1b1b, J1, J2 and T lineages, I cannot imagine when and how Middle Easterners could have spread throughout Europe before the Roman imperial machine was in place. However, if these Indo-Europeans also carried J-E-T lineages, which is technically possible considering their Middle Eastern origin, J-E-T would be found everywhere in more or less equal proportion alongside R1b (and R1a). One possibility is that there was indeed a small minority of J2, E1b1b and T (+ G2a3b1) accompanying the R1b hordes, and that the surplus of J-E-T in southern Europe came with the Phoenicians, Jews, Greeks and Romans.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    The absence of Haplogroup E seems to contradict the old theory of the Neolithic spread of haplogroup E-V13 AND matches the conclusions of Dienekes in its article "Expansion of E-V13 explained":



    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...explained.html

    E-V13 can't be Greek only. Perhaps it was present in the European homeland of Indo-Europeans (somewhere near the Danube) and spread from there to central Europe and later it was involved in the Greek colonization. Nowadays it is spreading with Albanians again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    E-V13 can't be Greek only. Perhaps it was present in the European homeland of Indo-Europeans (somewhere near the Danube) and spread from there to central Europe
    If it was present in the European homeland of Indo-Europeans, E-V13 would have been higher in the British islands

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    E-V13 can't be Greek only. Perhaps it was present in the European homeland of Indo-Europeans (somewhere near the Danube) and spread from there to central Europe and later it was involved in the Greek colonization. Nowadays it is spreading with Albanians again.
    are you sure?

    All the evidence prove the opposite,

    E-V13 is not connected with Danube but with Peloponese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    are you sure?

    All the evidence prove the opposite,

    E-V13 is not connected with Danube but with Peloponese.
    its an ancient epirote culture



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...1b_.28E-V13.29

    some say , homeland of the doric people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    During the Mesolithic or Paleolithic, I would say neither. R1b was probably still wandering somewhere between Central Asia and the Middle East, perhaps around modern Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq. It is only around the very beginning of the Neolithic (shortly before or shortly after) that R1b settled down in one place, which I estimate to be the southern Caucasus, northern Mesopotamia and/or northern Anatolia. Either R1b people had something to do with the beginning of agriculture, or more likely, they were pushed north by early Mesopotamian farmers to northern Turkey, then moved across the Caucasus (along with a minority of G2a3b1 people) where they met and mingled with R1a people in the Pontic steppe, bringing with them domesticated animals that would lead to the nomadic pastoralist lifestyle of the steppe people.

    This migration could have taken place between 7000 and 5000 BCE. I like to think it was before 6500 BCE because the level of the Black Sea was lower at the time, which made the crossing of the Caucasus along the coast easier than it is today. The deluge of 6500 BCE could also have been the reason why they moved north, losing a big part of their North Anatolian homeland. Alternatively, we could imagine that they had already colonised all the eastern Black Sea shore before the deluge, and that the sudden rise of the sea level cut the R1b society in two groups : Anatolian and Pontic steppe.

    The Proto-Indo-European language probably evolved from the language spoken by these early Neolithic R1b in northern Anatolia. Proto-IE shows influences of Caucasian, Hurrian and Semitic languages, which were all neighbours (Caucasian being G2a, Hurrian G2a and/or J2 and Semitic E1b1b and J1). This explains why Antolian branches of IE languages (like Hittite) are more archaic than all the other branches, which evolved after the "exodus" to the steppes.

    I made a Flash map (almost exactly two years ago, in May 2009) illustrating the historical migration of R1b through the ages.

    what about the influence of the Gravettian culture , was that not franco-iberic ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    its an ancient epirote culture



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...1b_.28E-V13.29

    some say , homeland of the doric people.

    well the exact position today in Greece shows no connection with Doric, but with Achaic people, with Danaous as Homer say,
    not with Epirus,
    Remember Danaos and how Homer name the Greeks in Ilias, Danaous,
    so the case of Epirus is mostly out,

    so the exact place fits with History that Dorians expel achaians at north peloponese,
    E-v13 is connected with Myceneans not Dorians,

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