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Thread: The Haplogroup E in Europe.

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    The Haplogroup E in Europe.

    I'm quite interested in the Haplogroup E, because it is quite exotic in the whole of Europe. In this forum I will collect the news published about the E Haplogroup and its subclades.

    Then I'm going to put three charts about frequency and distribution. As you all know, the percentages vary slightly depending on the sample.

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    We can see through these charts the different subclade of Haplogroup E sum approximately 25-27% in Greece, 12-14% in the Balkans and 10-12% in the Iberian Peninsula. In Germany and France decreases to less than 5%.
    Last edited by Ferreira; 29-06-11 at 22:45.

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    Now we are going to analyze the different subclades E. A good starting point is the article on Wikipedia, explained in understandable form.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

    There are a lot of subclades, but almost all Europeans belong to only two subclades: E-M81 and E-M78.

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    Then we had E-M78 in Greece, Balkans, Italy and Central Europe.

    Sub Clades of E1b1b1a1 (E-M78)
    There are four recognized sub-clades, which were mostly defined by Cruciani et al. (2006).
    • E1b1b1a1a (E-V12). Found in Egypt, Sudan, and other places. Has an important sub-clade E1b1b1a1a2 (E-V32) which is very common amongst Ethiopian Oromo, Borana Oromo from Kenya and Somalis.
    • E1b1b1a1b (E-V13). This is the most common type of E1b1b found in Europe and is especially common in the Balkans.
    • E1b1b1a1c (E-V22). Found in Egypt, the Middle East and other places.
    • E1b1b1a1d (E-V65). Associated with the Maghreb, but also found in Italy and Spain.
    • E1b1b1a1e (E-M521). Found in two individuals in Greece by Battaglia et al. (2008)

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    And now, E-M81, in Spain and Portugal.

    E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), formerly E1b1b1b, E3b1b, and E3b2, is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb, dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago.[2][24] This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from approximately 80% or more in some Moroccan Berber populations, including Saharawis, to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt.[24][25][26] Because of its prevalence among these groups and also others such as Mozabite, Middle Atlas, Kabyle and other Berber groups, it is sometimes referred to as a genetic "Berber marker".

    In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula, where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia, 10% in Western Andalusia and Northwest Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria.[18][29][30][31][32] The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos from Cantabria, ranging from 18% (8/45)[32] to 41% (23/56).[2] An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (10.68%), Gran Canaria (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (13.33%).[33]
    E-M81 is also found in France,[2] 2.70 % (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (5/89) and Île-de-France (5/91),[34][35] in Sicily (approximately 2% overall, but up to 7% in Piazza Armerina),[36] and in slightly lower frequencies in continental Italy (especially near Lucera)[31] possibly due to ancient migrations during the Islamic, Roman, and Carthaginian empires.
    As a result of its old world distribution, this sub-clade is found throughout Latin America, for example 6.1% in Cuba,[37] 5.4% in Brazil (Rio de Janeiro), [Note 7] and among Hispanic men from California and Hawaii 2.4%.[38]

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    This map explains it better. The highest concentrations are found in the Algerian Sahara and Morocco. In Europe, only Portugal and Spain has a strong presence, as in Italy and France only occurs in very specific places, and it is not so important overall.


    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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    Comprehensive genetic study of haplogroup E.

    http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/2

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    Frequency and distribution of Haplogroup E in Europe according to the previous study. No surprises, Greece 20-25%, Balkans 12-15%, Spain 12%. France much lower percentage.




    Frequency and distribution of the Subclades of Haplogroup E


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    As we are seing only in Portugal and Spain dominates subclade M81, of Berber origin. In the rest of Europe the predominant subclade is M78 whose origin would have to place it in Middle East. France occupies an intermediate position, although there are larger number of M78 (60%) than M81 (40%). In any case, in France the total amount of E (M78 + M81) is by far lower than in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balkan Peninsula.
    Last edited by Ferreira; 29-06-11 at 18:28.

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    Excellent topic Ferreira. You can notice how different is the Iberian Peninsula from the real Europe.

    Some thread like this was needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canek View Post
    Excellent topic Ferreira. You can notice how different is the Iberian Peninsula from the real Europe.

    Some thread like this was needed.
    Hm... Haplogroup E in Iberia is only about 12%, and the Berber-origin Haplogroup E is only about half of that. ~6% on the Y-line is not sufficient to differentiate Iberians from other Europeans, especially considering that they have greater percentages of typically European haplogroups (like European-type R1b at ~65% and Haplogroup I at ~7%, not to mention European-type Haplogroup E at levels not too far beneath Berber-type Haplogroup E). And I suspect (but don't have figures onhand) that Berber contribution to Iberian genetics is significantly lower in non-Y lines than in Y lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Hm... Haplogroup E in Iberia is only about 12%, and the Berber-origin Haplogroup E is only about half of that. ~6% on the Y-line is not sufficient to differentiate Iberians from other Europeans, especially considering that they have greater percentages of typically European haplogroups (like European-type R1b at ~65% and Haplogroup I at ~7%, not to mention European-type Haplogroup E at levels not too far beneath Berber-type Haplogroup E). And I suspect (but don't have figures onhand) that Berber contribution to Iberian genetics is significantly lower in non-Y lines than in Y lines.
    E-M81 it is 75-80% of all haplogroup E in Spain. E-M78 is very much a minority in Spain.

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    I mean spaniards are not as european as upper Europe. It is a fact. Very well said again Ferreira.

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    @Canek: what does it mean that Spaniards are not as European as the other Europeans? Europe is traditionally divided in 4 areas: North West, South West, South East and North East, but genetics have demonstered that this division is not that right. There are various genetic regions in Europe: Italy, the Iberian peninsula, the Balkans, Greece, Russia, Scandinavia, Finland, the British Isles and Germany more or less (and others that I don't remember right now). Every region is as European as the others, but everyone has its own characterists and looks. Some are more similar to each others than others. For exemple Italy-Greece and the Balkans are very much a continuum, while the Iberian Peninsula is more connected to France. Germany and Scandinavia are an other continuum.
    But we are all European.
    It's possible that the Berber domination left a trace in Spain but Spaniards are very easy to spot among real Berbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferreira View Post
    E-M81 it is 75-80% of all haplogroup E in Spain. E-M78 is very much a minority in Spain.
    You are total madman. You have no knowledge of how genes work or what genetics research is all about. Stop acting like a parrot and making a complete fool of yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferreira View Post
    E-M81 it is 75-80% of all haplogroup E in Spain. E-M78 is very much a minority in Spain.
    Which source is that coming from? Your maps here apparently show <75% of E-M81 in Spain and a lot less than 50% in Portugal. Most of the studies I've seen have given mid-single-digit percentages for overall E-M81 but I may be missing one, I've only skimmed the articles that you've provided. It is still dwarfed by other, more commonly European haplogroups, I think we can agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    @Canek: what does it mean that Spaniards are not as European as the other Europeans? Europe is traditionally divided in 4 areas: North West, South West, South East and North East, but genetics have demonstered that this division is not that right. There are various genetic regions in Europe: Italy, the Iberian peninsula, the Balkans, Greece, Russia, Scandinavia, Finland, the British Isles and Germany more or less (and others that I don't remember right now). Every region is as European as the others, but everyone has its own characterists and looks. Some are more similar to each others than others. For exemple Italy-Greece and the Balkans are very much a continuum, while the Iberian Peninsula is more connected to France. Germany and Scandinavia are an other continuum.
    But we are all European.
    It's possible that the Berber domination left a trace in Spain but Spaniards are very easy to spot among real Berbers.
    Of course.

    What this faux Spaniard Ferreira fails to understand is that the great majority of M-81 in Iberia, as in many other places in Europe, results from ancient (Mesolithic / Neolithic) migrations and has no impact on phenotype. Very little M-81 in Spain and Portugal comes from the Muslim occupation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Which source is that coming from? Your maps here apparently show <75% of E-M81 in Spain and a lot less than 50% in Portugal. Most of the studies I've seen have given mid-single-digit percentages for overall E-M81 but I may be missing one, I've only skimmed the articles that you've provided. It is still dwarfed by other, more commonly European haplogroups, I think we can agree.
    No, you aren't missing anything. Low to mid-single digits is correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    @Canek: what does it mean that Spaniards are not as European as the other Europeans? Europe is traditionally divided in 4 areas: North West, South West, South East and North East, but genetics have demonstered that this division is not that right. There are various genetic regions in Europe: Italy, the Iberian peninsula, the Balkans, Greece, Russia, Scandinavia, Finland, the British Isles and Germany more or less (and others that I don't remember right now). Every region is as European as the others, but everyone has its own characterists and looks. Some are more similar to each others than others. For exemple Italy-Greece and the Balkans are very much a continuum, while the Iberian Peninsula is more connected to France. Germany and Scandinavia are an other continuum.
    But we are all European.
    It's possible that the Berber domination left a trace in Spain but Spaniards are very easy to spot among real Berbers.
    Yes it's true, but a lot of spaniards, specially andalusians, could pass for residents of northern morocco/ northern Algeria, and vice versa.

    In Spain there are a lot of moroccon inmigrants, and some of them are indistinguishable from the Spanish people.

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    Sparkey, according to the graph approximately are 75% (or 3/4) M81.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Moss View Post
    Of course.

    What this faux Spaniard Ferreira fails to understand is that the great majority of M-81 in Iberia, as in many other places in Europe, results from ancient (Mesolithic / Neolithic) migrations and has no impact on phenotype. Very little M-81 in Spain and Portugal comes from the Muslim occupation.
    One word: Delusional. And may I remind you that Ferreira is a galician name?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Moss View Post
    You are total madman. You have no knowledge of how genes work or what genetics research is all about. Stop acting like a parrot and making a complete fool of yourself.
    If you want to provide some scientific study in favor or against, it will be welcome. But if you are going to talk nonsense then best you don't participate. Are you really interested in the Y-DNA?

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    Ignore Grey Moss my friend. It must be a clone account of Wilhelm or Cambria Red.

    Again thanks for a excellent thread about the AFRICAN roots of the spaniards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferreira View Post
    Yes it's true, but a lot of spaniards, specially andalusians, could pass for residents of northern morocco/ northern Algeria, and vice versa.

    In Spain there are a lot of moroccon inmigrants, and some of them are indistinguishable from the Spanish people.
    I don't exclude this possibility, but for the simple fact that around the stright of Gibraltar very likely climate on the two sides are very similar, so does also the solar exposition and impact, etc. etc. so it can be that in Andalusia natives have evolved features that are similar to those of some Berbers. Exactly like I would not be surprised if someone in Sicily would look similar to a Tunisian or in Rhodes some Greek looked like a Turk/Lebaneses.

    However I doubt that most Andalusians and Sicilians look more Berber than European. Excluding in toto that there are individuals who might resemble Berbers would be however very stupid and arrogant too.
    Two individuals can look similar also being very different genetically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Moss View Post
    Of course.

    What this faux Spaniard Ferreira fails to understand is that the great majority of M-81 in Iberia, as in many other places in Europe, results from ancient (Mesolithic / Neolithic) migrations and has no impact on phenotype. Very little M-81 in Spain and Portugal comes from the Muslim occupation.
    Yes, I think it's the same with J2 in Italy and Romania. Italy and Romania experienced almost no levantine domination but we have the same high frequencies of J2 (Romania even more than Italy).

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