Link between haplogroup E and poor economic performance

Since it avenges a tsunami and I took us to all ahead, I am going to say to you where the genes go away to go.
 
Except that the Greco-Roman Antiquity was a slave-based society where most of the wealth was produced by slaves. You just cannot compare it to modern society. Furthermore, the haplogroup frequencies 2000 years ago and now might well have been quite different with all the migrations that took place, all the wars, and so on.
Well for a start slaves in ancient Greece were different from slaves in 19th century USA for example (they were actually quite close to modern gastarbeiters who are slaves without knowing it). And most of them were South Europeans like their masters so it was E-V13 dominated people who created wealth eitherway...
BTW the people who work in German factories nowadays are of forreign origin (Turks, Kurds, Greeks, Polish, Italians) so I could also claim that they produce the wealth of the most wealthy European country (which I don't)
 
Except that the Greco-Roman Antiquity was a slave-based society where most of the wealth was produced by slaves. You just cannot compare it to modern society. Furthermore, the haplogroup frequencies 2000 years ago and now might well have been quite different with all the migrations that took place, all the wars, and so on.

First of all we must recon the difference of Slave = σκλαυος and Worker=ειλωτας and tax payer = δουλος.

2nd what make the British empire? exept of steel?
James watt and his vapor machine? wowow what he invented? Ηρων ο Αλεξανδρευς Eron from alaxandreia, was the first who used steam power to open the gates of the temple,
nobody seeks Ydna of Eron but all might search Ydna of Watt and no one the victims of early industrial age?
the 1 room 8people family sleep in a city in Britain,
so the rich of Incas went to spain to end in hands of british who 200 years before the communists pushed people and take them from their villages to send them in a misery city full of coal ashes,
that times human were just a waste of feeding to his 'master' vapor, and if cut a hand who cares? Bankers are earning.
the rich of ancient Greeks was olive oil, the rich of northwest was coal,
Both had slaves, in fact some even travell to west africa to gain them!!!!!
why?
THAT TIME E-V13 did not had anaimias?
THAT Time E-v13 were better workers than today? or not?

maybe thalassaimia and sickle enter after the civil war in USA when some slaves return back to Liberia
lazy and corrupt are in mind and in propaganda
in some european countries some people grew beard and live by money of state to those who have dog,
 
An other factor that dismisses the whole argument is that ancient Greeks and Hebrews (both with 20-25% E1b1b today) were the two peoples who most influenced our thought of what is ethical. How could they if they were genetically programmed towards corruption?
 
I have not been to Lebanon, Syria or Egypt, but I have been to Turkey and Morocco, and I have seen a lot of natives there that could be pass as south europeans, and not all had surgery. the same is true in reverse.
Here we have 4 fools hating me because I talk about haplogroups E or T and its origin non european. If I only talked about haplogroups R or I, they will love me. I don't care, they are a complete waste of time. They writte the same in all forums, and they think that with their insults to me, scientific files will be forgotten. Poor men :LOL:.
E1b1b was in Europe before R1b or R1a (at least it's V13 subclade) so it is more European than R is...In fact E1b1b1a2 (V13) is almost ubsent out of Europe and is -together with haplogroups I, R1b1a2a1, R1a1a1a7- an exclusive European haplogroup. If you label E1b1b1a2 African because it's parent clade E1b1b1a originated in Egypt/Aethiopia then you should also label R1b1a2a1a (L51) and I as Central Asian/Middle Eastern because R1b and IJ originated there...
 
E1b1b was in Europe before R1b or R1a (at least it's V13 subclade) so it is more European than R is...In fact E1b1b1a2 (V13) is almost ubsent out of Europe and is -together with haplogroups I, R1b1a2a1, R1a1a1a7- an exclusive European haplogroup. If you label E1b1b1a2 African because it's parent clade E1b1b1a originated in Egypt/Aethiopia then you should also label R1b1a2a1a (L51) and I as Central Asian/Middle Eastern because R1b and IJ originated there...

It depends what you call Europe. Personally I consider Russia (until the Urals) and Ukraine to be in Europe, so R1a at least was probably in Europe since the Paleolithic, and R1b probably since the Neolithic just like E1b1b. The thing is that E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, and R1b are all haplogroups that came to Europe from the Middle East. Haplogroups I and R1a are the only Paleolithic European haplogroups.
 
Well for a start slaves in ancient Greece were different from slaves in 19th century USA for example (they were actually quite close to modern gastarbeiters who are slaves without knowing it). And most of them were South Europeans like their masters so it was E-V13 dominated people who created wealth eitherway...
BTW the people who work in German factories nowadays are of forreign origin (Turks, Kurds, Greeks, Polish, Italians) so I could also claim that they produce the wealth of the most wealthy European country (which I don't)

That is not true. Slaves in the Antiquity were personal possessions that could be sold, physically abused and even killed by their owners if they wanted to. Their condition wasn't like slaves in 19th century USA, it was worse. At least Americans didn't sacrifice hundreds of thousands of slaves annually for their entertainment like the Romans.

You could not have chosen a worse analogy than the modern Gastarbeiters. Ancient slaves, when they were lucky to work for a kind and humane family, were more like servants of upper and upper-middle class European families until the early 20th century, living with them 24h, and doing house chores, cooking, or taking care of their masters' children. Like house servants they got food and accommodation in exchange for their work, but had very little free time and usually (there were exceptions in both cases) couldn't marry or have children of their own while in service. The main difference was that modern house servants were not owned by their masters, could resign or change job whenever they wanted, and could own personal belongings, whereas slaves had to wait to be emancipated, which was by no way guaranteed and only relied on the good graces of their masters.
 
I moved the argument between Ferreiro, Knovas and Grey Moss here and closed the thread. Please stop this childish bickering or some people will get banned.
 
That is not true. Slaves in the Antiquity were personal possessions that could be sold, physically abused and even killed by their owners if they wanted to. Their condition wasn't like slaves in 19th century USA, it was worse. At least Americans didn't sacrifice hundreds of thousands of slaves annually for their entertainment like the Romans.

You could not have chosen a worse analogy than the modern Gastarbeiters. Ancient slaves, when they were lucky to work for a kind and humane family, were more like servants of upper and upper-middle class European families until the early 20th century, living with them 24h, and doing house chores, cooking, or taking care of their masters' children. Like house servants they got food and accommodation in exchange for their work, but had very little free time and usually (there were exceptions in both cases) couldn't marry or have children of their own while in service. The main difference was that modern house servants were not owned by their masters, could resign or change job whenever they wanted, and could own personal belongings, whereas slaves had to wait to be emancipated, which was by no way guaranteed and only relied on the good graces of their masters.



Nope there are 5 words with different meaning,

1 ΔΟΥΛΟΣ worker, they had everything except land and Vote rights,
Not allowed to fight, they were protected by master, the take 66%% of what they earned,
they were a class, a working class only, when they were free they earn rights,
the first corrupted Banker in ancient Athens was a δουλος that was set free and they him control of Athens central Bank
mostly farmers, merchants, and keep some things like fire, food stocks, also αχθοφοροι (carry things,)
the word 'work' in modern Greece is δουλεια, meaning how important they were to ancient society, and how their masters took good care for them

2 ειλωτας farmer, they had almost all the land in ancient Sparta, except the field of 4 000 m2 that was about to given to retired Ομοιοι, they give according land a % of production to omoioi, they did not vote, they did not go to war, about 15%

3 Συντεχνοι they are not mentioned widely cause some put them in class of δουλοι,
they were mostly metalsmiths, or builders, they support army as diggers sharp weapons, etc
But not allowed to fight

4 Δεκανοι helpers, mostly they help priest, ephoroi etc, they knew writing and they were payed
modern is the priest διακος a small degree in church degrees


5 Σκλαβοι, first mention by Xenophon in Κυρου αναβασις, (the cyrus attempt)
he describes that some rich man took people, they feed them and had them in cages,
the words σκλαβος means εις κλωβο, in cage,

so the type of slave who lives in cages and has chains was unknown to ancient Greeks, in fact if we read Xenophon he is astonished by what he seen,

the slaves in ancient Greeks is like modern workers Tax payers,
according city state they had priviledge, rights and obligations, as modern day workers,
they earn money, but gave tax to master,
THEY NEVER WENT TO WAR, except the LAST BATTLE, IN ACHAIA PELOPONESE.

another class was the semi free states like Arcadians to Spartans, Arcadians were semi free, they could go to war, to produce what ever, but they should use Sparta prices on Market, and only Sparta harbor,
THEY DID HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE,

a δουλος could be a master after his price was paid,
an ειλωτας never, except if he moved to another town,

In Makedonia we find similar system, the masters village,
Makedonians have democracy and absolute together,
they have democracy in city rulers, and market rulers, and protection rulers, only in cities and villages of συντεχνοι,
the rest area belong to military families, so a city with walls had democracy, but the military who protect did not,
out side city land belong to some military officers or the king, a village of farmers that lived there should produce only farming and warriors, all paid money, but did have the right to own land, only city people had small land, and the big military families,

the later sclavoi as is described in roman times, is half a myth,
besides Greeks were not saint, but they fear more the gods, than Romans who became gods,
the christian expansion also put some myths and exagerations in working class in ancient world,

a slave according time is something that always existed,
today we name them workers!!!

about same was in ancient world, except times when man became God,
at least until phillip's time we know that was a shame to have sexual with your slave,
in fact it was honor to have sex with 'captured' high class,
In Homer we see the 2 big fight about 1 girls,
it was an Honor to have a captured one of high class, even to marry one,
it was not honor to have a slave for sex, at least until phillips times,

Αισωπος was a doulos class teacher, who become free and still worked as teacher, did not changing class,

we have many cases of friendship among the 2 class,

the later roman gladiators, and sclaves and etc is another story,

remember the first brothel was in middle East, and still sclaves were like working class,
the inhuman face to a sclave is first written in Xenophon, and later and became giving gifts sclaves in west world, a pair of blondes, or a strong Numidian worker, or a educated Greek,

it is another story the paid doulos, and another the free work sclavos of later,

In fact I believe sometimes that was better,

the modern case that a human will work a whole life in Corporation that belongs to Mr Z and paid, and when war comes, he will go to fight to protect Mr Z property while Mr Z will not go to fight, as in WW2 europe was, I believe is more unfair,


Besides in ancient world, at least Greece, sclaves lived in his Mastrers house, or had their own houses,
today modern Slave merchant bring people, in a pathetic boat, to pass Aegean or Mediterrenean or Adriatic, they take money from slaves thousands of E per Head to pass them from Pakistan to Eu, and they abandon them where ever, full of disease, hungry and uneducated, the use them in as cheap workers and they let them live in inhuman conditions,
at least in some eras and areas slavery was better than today,
just think, some people today pay to become slaves !!!!!
 
The problem in southern Europe is the huge degree of corruption we have. In Spain, all political parties, both left and right, are involved in corruption cases. The problem is that instead of expelling the corrupts, political parties to protect them. I do not know if the reason is the haplogroup E or the education of society. Unfortunaly corruption is widespread in southern Europe.
 
The problem in southern Europe is the huge degree of corruption we have. In Spain, all political parties, both left and right, are involved in corruption cases. The problem is that instead of expelling the corrupts, political parties to protect them. I do not know if the reason is the haplogroup E or the education of society. Unfortunaly corruption is widespread in southern Europe.

I don't believe so,
I know people and system well in Greece,
the problem is the artificial unemployment, and the divided people,
for example, if a left parties member steal money, in order to avoid scandal all party members say he is innocent, and right parties say so as propaganda,
that created a 'trust' of politicians, who monopolize the country,
they cooper among them behind sceenes, but they fight infront TV cameras,
but Nobody goes to prison, goes they make laws that help them,
so greed people learn how to use the people, by creating unemployment they have him in service,
the system is old, from Roman times, a bucket of wheat to vote a senate member,
the absence of ostracism by the people, create a non fear senate enviroment, '
if we had ostracism in our days, then how many people are connected with scandals will have to leave country and loose properties?
that fear was about to create a respect to people choice by politicians, and move away all 'bad' thoughs on how to steal the country.

the Northen Europe has also no ostracism system but has clear divide the judges authority, and helps democracy as old Ηλιαια did,
that means in North judges are strong, while in South are weak,

corruption has to do with punishment also,
if you punish corrupted, then you fight corruption, but if you send to prison simple people and you make 'favor' to rich and corrupted, then system is sick,

In Greece we say, if I steal a 'salami' I will go to prison as thief,
If I steal 1 000 000 E there I am a 'sir' a gentleman, and everybody say 'good morning mister' to me
the luck of punishment, the weak judges, the no 'ostracism power' to people, creates corruption,
not the race,
 
I have moved the discussion about the phenotypes of the Greeks to a new thread of its own, as it has nothing to do with the original topic and probably will generate a lot of debate. I like to have clear threads well organised by topics...
 
Well, Austria or Switzerland have more E than Spain.
 
As for Greece, it is a very carved and fragmented country with strongly varying haplogroup frequencies between regions. While northern Greece can exceed 30% of haplogroup E, Crete is under 10% and some islands have under 5% of E. Greeks may think of themselves as one ethnic group, but DNA rather suggests a confederacy of many ethnicities.
Your lies about Greece just don't have an end, do they? Northern Greece has 20.5% of E1b1b, Crete is over 10% and NO island was ever found to have less then 5%. Come on Maciamo, three lies in a row?
 
It depends what you call Europe. Personally I consider Russia (until the Urals) and Ukraine to be in Europe, so R1a at least was probably in Europe since the Paleolithic, and R1b probably since the Neolithic just like E1b1b. The thing is that E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, and R1b are all haplogroups that came to Europe from the Middle East. Haplogroups I and R1a are the only Paleolithic European haplogroups.
But you only name E1b1b, G2a*(xG2a3b1), J1 and J2 Middle Eastern while you name R1b West European...who are you trying to fool?
 
But you only name E1b1b, G2a*(xG2a3b1), J1 and J2 Middle Eastern while you name R1b West European...who are you trying to fool?

Please put that into context. Where are you referring to ? In the haplogroup tables, R1b is classified as Mesolithic Eurasian, alongside G2a. In the Paleolithic R1b was Middle Eastern or Central Asian. Now it is mostly Western European.
 
Your lies about Greece just don't have an end, do they? Northern Greece has 20.5% of E1b1b, Crete is over 10% and NO island was ever found to have less then 5%. Come on Maciamo, three lies in a row?

Easy explanation. I revised the frequencies in Y-DNA tables and changed the denominations. What I called Northern Greece was actually the data for Thessaly (which I now reclassified under the new 'Central Greece' category). As for Crete, it was the frequency I had before because I had forgotten to take one study into account. The Lashiti Plateau in Crete has under 5% of E, for example.
 
better title: Haplogroups and economic developments

"Link between haplogroup E and poor economic performance"

Well, in europe, probably I2a would been more meaningful one...

https://www.google.com/search?q=haplogroup+I2a&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikuKTn29XVAhVTfiYKHc3bBesQ_AUICigB&biw=1280&bih=726

Or R1b including africa too....
 
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