Did you know that Kurds(Kurdish PeoPle) are Europeans?

It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine. At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians,"3 as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/16A*.html

there are Syrians and white Syrians..where does distinction come from?

while white Syrians I related to I2a-din and Cimmerians/Gomer, question is who were other Syrians genetically... J2? E-V13?

Gomer is ancestor of all germanian people... among them are also tribes such as Goths, Hatti.. perhaps Getae were also Germanic....

now, look at this

The Gutian dynasty came to power in Mesopotamia around 2150 BC (short chronology), by destabilising Akkad, according to the Sumerian kinglist at the end of the reign of king Ur-Utu (or Lugal-melem) of Uruk. They reigned for perhaps around one century (copies of the kinglist vary between 25 and 124 years; 91 years is often quoted as probable). The dynasty was succeeded by the 3rd dynasty of Ur.
The Gutian people (Guti) were native to Gutium, presumably in the central Zagros Mountains; almost nothing is known about their origins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_dynasty_of_Sumer

so, Gutians from Zagros mountains were ruling over Sumer for 100 years or more...
Guti = Goti... = perhaps Hatti that were in Asia minor before Hittite...

pay attention to this

in north mythology Hati = giant wolf
in turkish language Kurt = wolf

interestingly, Hati Hróðvitnisson it is the wolf that chases the moon...
In Norse mythology, Hati Hróðvitnisson (first name meaning "He Who Hates, Enemy"[1]) is a wolf that according to Gylfaginning chases the Moon across the night sky, just as the wolf Sköll chases the Sun during the day, until the time of Ragnarök when they will swallow these heavenly bodies, after which Fenrir will break free from his bonds and kill Odin.
Hati's surname is Hróðvitnisson, attested in both Grímnismál and Gylfaginning, which indicates that he is the son of Fenrir, whose alternate name is Hróðvitnir ("Famous Wolf").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hati_Hróðvitnisson

note that possible origin of tribal name of serbs is moon as in Slavic "srp" (= crescent, sickle) and in mongolian sar (moon, crescent)

east Germanic Hiri are known to be spooky night warriors...
they are coupled with Scirii, Sciri, Scirians, Skirii, Skiri or Skirians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirii
whose tribal name Scirians is just coruption of Serians... same as Sclaveni for Sloveni... or Scordisci for celtic version of Serdi

seri and hurri are paired bulls that represent day and night in Asia minor mythology... again pair, and hurri related to dark, and seri to light though daylight and not moonlight...

seri is also name that comes from serians/sumerians... while hurri might be related to Hurrians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians

The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)


back to Gutians ruling over Sumer
100 years of ruling a state is enough to begin identifying with its name...
thus Gutians who rulled over Sumer became white-Syrians and Cimmerians (=Sumerians)..they came from north so they probably had somewhat lighter complexion than original Sumerians / Syrians... hence white-Syrians..

so, I wouldnot exclude Goths being I2a-din as well.... perhaps a branch that didnot become white Syrians. kept name Guti..

in fact, tribal names are sometimes wrongly transcribed in non native languages....
let's play with word Guti....
in slavic similar word is ljuti = angry ones
(angry ones would be easily origin for tribal name e.g. Lutici are Polabian Slav tribe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutici, but it is not really as close to 'guti')
alternative would be ljudi (people) which is to my ear much more alike to Gothic Thiuda than Germanic Deutch is...

according to disputed medieval source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_the_Priest_of_Duklja) south Slavs are Goths...

but Scordisci are Celtic people... Serdi are Celtic people from area of Scordisci who became Thracians..
Serdi may be explanation for I2a-din on west coast of Asia minor that was never settled by Slavs...

300px-ThracianTribes.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

ancient Rome historians did speculate that name Germans was used to identify original Celts...
but could original Celts have been Cimmerians as claimed by Josephus? Celts called themselves Keltoi, which could be a version of Guti...could be same tribal name as Guti and even same as Anatolian Hatti (whose primary god has name Taru similar to Germanic Thor, while later Hittite have same god as Tarhun, which is alike to slavic Perun, celtic taranis, and Baltic Perkunas..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

note that Celts are mentioned also as living in Africa, and there is no native European R1b in Africa, but there is native I2a1...

138 Few nations have wandered so far and wide as the Galatæ. We meet with them in Europe, Asia, and Africa, under the various names of Galatæ Galatians, Gauls, and Kelts. Galatia, in Asia Minor, was settled by one of these hordes.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...99.01.0239:book=1:chapter=3&highlight=galatia

this also shows Galatae gives names Kelts and Gauls..why not both Galatae and Goti being names derived from older Guti?

Celts in Africa are in my opinion I2a1 and went under name Garamantes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garamantes

Garamantes were advanced civilization that had irrigation systems that made Sahara bloom...their capital Germa (name to the town seems to have been given by archeologist recently to mark capital of Garamantes) is near modern town Sebha...

alternative name for Celts is Gali... this is area of Galicia in east Europe
250px-Ukraine-Halychyna.png

250px-Galiz20.gif


that is core of I2a2 in Ukraine area...
Haplogroup_I2a.gif


and that is also the area of white-Croatia, while white-Serbia is west of it in land Boika, which is, as explained above, Bohemia where another hotspot of I2a2 is.......

so Slavic I2a-Din we may map to white-Croats, white-Serbs and perhaps Goths...
white in white-Croats and white-Serbs was translated to white = west (ancient color system) ...
was white-Syrians the same? or was white-Serbs and white-Croats remain of old white-Syrian/white-Sart


Bavarian manuscript speaks of state of Zeruiani was so big (and above we could see how big is state of Serians) that all Slavs come form it.....

big state of Zeruiani - is it about syrians or white Syrians? if it was white-Syrians this may have been about state of Goths or Sarmatians (though Seneca is clear that in Caspian highlands Serians live among Sarmatians which implies not being one of them) ... if it is about Syrians, than this could be about hellenic empire....

Zorya = Slavic triple goddess - representing 3 stars: morning, evening and night..
her name means "dawn" and morning star is maped to northern star Zvezda(star) Danica... (dan = day)... if we would try to map zeruiani to Hellenic people, tribal name derived from zorya (as in Zeruiani) would by name of her most important morning star form map to Danaans (acheans - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaans) well...

so Syrians might have been I think J2 with e-V13 and white-Syrians I2a
this is consistent with haplogroup I not really widely present in Sumer only north of it among Kurds..
curiously, Siraces who lived on north shores of Black sea and are thought to be same or related to Serboi, are most hellenized of all Sarmatians..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces

Zorya lives together with sun, east, north and west wind...sun is symbol of ancient Macedonians...in Greek mythology winds are Anemoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi , same gods are Venti in latin) and I map them to Slavic tribes: west wind Zephyrus (born in caves of thrace_ to Serbs, east wind Eurus to Russians, north wind Borea to Prussians/Borussians, and son of Zephyrus is Carpus whom I map to Croats).. so Zorya/Danica/Danaans living together with sun (ancient Macedonians) and north, west and east wind ( = Veneti/Thracian proto-Slavs) would be about Helenic empire... in fact, those Veneti/Venti tribes might have been not really Slavic originally but something in between germanic, celtic and slavic speaking, while R1a spoke Balto-Slavic.....maybe they were east germanic tribes that are also west slavic...perhaps Scirri, Hiri that are known to have been related to Venedi...


are Kurdish Sorani related to Serians or white Serians?
Dialects.jpg


I think Serians as they have more J2 and less I2a than northern Kurds who would be related to white Serians / Cimmerians same as Serbs...thus Sorani would be more like Danaans/Acheans...

so north Kurds would be closer to Serbs, south Kurds to Greeks...
and of course there is some Scythian / (proto-slavic?) R1a in both...
 
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See Dodecad portraits up, I think it's obvious.
 
kurds ,kurdish people are european .

See dna tests kurds have not asian dna tests but dna s like greek/italian/sPanish people ,thats fact . im north kurd so kurd from northkurdistan ("turkish kurdistan" ) and see dna tests here:
see kurdish europeans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kn6uVLBnZE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

2- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmC2uWESEM
See (turkish kurdistan)

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

and why you think why these europeans placed kurdistan to europe ? if kurds would be not europeans then they would not put kurdistan to europe map and to european MINORITIES see : http://www.eurominority.eu/version/eng/minority-alpha-list.asp
why these european website have not put iraq or iran to europe ? .. because they are not european, this is true europe if yo ucan accept or not , so now forget religions in this are.. thsi is true europe :

http://www.eurominority.eu/images/posters/poster-nations-grand.jpg
 
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You are confusing concepts. Y-DNA (and mtDNA too), is only a marker wich tells the origin of an individual going thousands of years ago, but it's imposible to know with it the REAL admixture of a person. So most Kurds show Indo-European origin, but admixture analysis show that all of them mixed with other similar populations, the mentioned Asian Caucasoids. This populations are closer to Europeans than Asians, but are not the same. So it's not rare to see Kurds and other Near Easterns with European look, but this is not a prove for what you say and, of course Y-DNA and mtDNA, isn't too as I explained.

And haplogroup T is quite apreciable in Kurds, and very linked with the Near/Middle East and Africa. There are regions in Europe with higher or more or less the same presence of this haplogroup, but are only this: regions. In all Europe haplogroup T represents just 1% according to Eupidia, you can check it in the haplogroup description.

Geographically speaking, perhaps is posible to discuss if Kurds are European or not, but genetically speaking, Kurds are Near Easterns with substantial European ancestry, quite low compared with mainland Europeans. That's what autosomal analysis tell, there is nothing to discuss here.
 
there is Balcanic mark in Kurds, about 10-20% according area that misses from some tribes of Kurds in Iran

the place that kurds are assosiated is little more west and south that they are today,

somewhere about west from Diyarbakir
 
You are confusing concepts. Y-DNA (and mtDNA too), is only a marker wich tells the origin of an individual going thousands of years ago, but it's imposible to know with it the REAL admixture of a person. So most Kurds show Indo-European origin, but admixture analysis show that all of them mixed with other similar populations, the mentioned Asian Caucasoids. This populations are closer to Europeans than Asians, but are not the same. So it's not rare to see Kurds and other Near Easterns with European look, but this is not a prove for what you say and, of course Y-DNA and mtDNA, isn't too as I explained.

And haplogroup T is quite apreciable in Kurds, and very linked with the Near/Middle East and Africa. There are regions in Europe with higher or more or less the same presence of this haplogroup, but are only this: regions. In all Europe haplogroup T represents just 1% according to Eupidia, you can check it in the haplogroup description.

Geographically speaking, perhaps is posible to discuss if Kurds are European or not, but genetically speaking, Kurds are Near Easterns with substantial European ancestry, quite low compared with mainland Europeans. That's what autosomal analysis tell, there is nothing to discuss here.
There're different kinds of haplogorup T. Like different kinds of haplogroup E.Kurdish haplogroup T is a Western Asian one. I believe Kurds have that haplogroup because of the Medes. The Medes absorbed many Kassites and Elamites. I believe that the original people that belonged to that haplogroup were the Elamites.

And Kurds are more Indo-European people than people from Spain or other parts of Europe. Most Europeans are native to Europe, Kurds are native to Kurdistan and Kurdistan is in West Asia. Proto Indo-Europeans were West-Asian folks, like Kurds. They came from the Middle East.
 
The third president of the US, Thomas Jefferson, was in Haplogroup T.
 
How do you explain results of admixture analysis so? Very different interpretation from waht you say. Kurds have less than 40% of European, While Greeks go far from 60%, and Spaniards 90%...haplogroups don't tell the full History as I explained.

Agree with different kinds of Haplogroup T. However, it is believed that Thomas Jefferson had Jewish background. 6% of Sephardic Jews belong to haplogrouop T.
 
How do you explain results of admixture analysis so? Very different interpretation from waht you say. Kurds have less than 40% of European, While Greeks go far from 60%, and Spaniards 90%...haplogroups don't tell the full History as I explained.

Agree with different kinds of Haplogroup T. However, it is believed that Thomas Jefferson had Jewish background. 6% of Sephardic Jews belong to haplogrouop T.
Kurdish MtDNA is distinguish from the European, Caucasian and West Asian population. Kurdish MtDNA is very unique one and shows some parallels only with Indo-European western Persians and some folks in the Caucasus.

Greeks, Spaniards live in Europe, of course most of them are native Europeans and some of them are mixed with North Africans. Kurds are a (missing) link between Europe and Asia. Kurds are native to their homeland, which is in Asia and Greeks and Spaniards are native to their homeland, which is in Europe.

I don't consider Spaniards as Indo-Europeans by race. They're only Indo-Europeans by language. But Kurds are Indo-Europeans by race and language.
 
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6% of Sephardic Jews belong to haplogrouop T.
So what? 13% of Sephardic Jews belongs to haplogroup R1b.

Btw, according the Jewish, they're originally from the northern parts of Mesopotamia. I don't know if their haplogroup T is the same as a Kurdish one, but they found very much of Kurdish haplogoup T in places where the ancient Medes lived, like eastern Kurdistan and Azerbaijan in the north around the Caucasus mountains.
 
Kurdish MtDNA is distinguish from European, Caucasian and West Asian population. Kurdish MtDNA is very unique one and shows some parallels only with Indo-European western Persians and some folks in the Caucasus.

Greeks, Spaniards live in Europe, of course most of them are native Europeans and some of them are mixed with North Africans. Kurds are a (missing) link between Europe and Asia. Kurds are native to their homeland, which is in Asia and Greeks and Spaniards are native to their homeland, which is in Europe.

I don't consider Spaniards as Indo-Europeans by race. They're only Indo-Europeans by language. But Kurds are Indo-Europeans by race and language.


I agree with you with 1 condition
the thread sais Kurds = Europeans
not Kurds = IndoEuropeans

nobody denies the IE party of curds,
it is another story the E and another the IE

besides who is European is another story,

why r1b and r1a can be considered European and not M-78 or E-V13?
one came from east and north asia, the other came from south so?
the case of kurds is 20% mediterranean and in some western tribes in Diyarbakir i think have big I Y-Dna
a possible assimilation of phrygians and west minor asia I people under an army created to served a persian king?
Skudet skudra people that moved to asia to serve Persian mixed with carduchoi?
or north pontic scythians ?

besides the problem of the one who post the thread is obvius,


lol you guys posted so much .. :)

and i say only; kurdish dna s are lile spanish greek and itally dna s ..and do you think that all europeans have blond hair and blue eyes.. thats lol see portugal..see spain see italy seegreece all that are like kurds... so kurds have same dna s like these.. and kurds are old european and see thee map this is true europe , and dont be worry because of islam ,kurds have not only islam religion lol so you can accept kurds as european .i know because of islam you europeasn cant accept turkey ,too : )) if there would stay an christ. state you would accept it in the eu ,so quickly..

see a short video ..kurdish europeans.. :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kn6uVLBnZE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

and this map is map from europe ,,and there you cant see iraq iran or syria.. here: http://www.eurominority.eu/images/posters/poster-nations-grand.jpg and see euro. people incl. kurds http://www.eurominority.eu/version/eng/minority-alpha-list.asp and thats shows all.. and thsdi website created by true europeans.. and we cant forget that a lot of kurds were assimilated by arabs turks and persian .




we have a clear misunderstanding of what is IE and what is European
Carduchoi or corduanes or gordianes is an ancient indoiranian tribe that moved from phrygia to persia and from armenia to syria and cillikia,
they were always a moving camp of warriors, bow users
we can found in skudra case

there is no doubt that are west asian, middle east people, with mix of I Y-Dna
now if IE = European is another case,
 
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I agree with you with 1 condition
the thread sais Kurds = Europeans
not Kurds = IndoEuropeans

nobody denies the IE party of curds,
it is another story the E and another the IE

besides who is European is another story,

why r1b and r1a can be considered European and not M-78 or E-V13?
one came from east and north asia, the other came from south so?
the case of kurds is 20% mediterranean and in some western tribes in Diyarbakir i think have big I Y-Dna

besides the problem of the one who post the thread is obvius,
You're right! Spaniards are native Europeans with a admixture with North Africans and Greeks are native Europeans with very much admixure with North Africans and West Asians.

Kurds are absolutely NOT European, and they were never European. Kurds are native to their homeland, Kurdistan. And Kurdistan IS in Asia! Kurds are Indo-Europeans, because they speak an IE language. And I believe that the proto Indo-European speakers came from the place which is nowadays occupied by the modern Kurds.


r1b and r1a is not only European but also Asiatic. Haplogorups r1b and r1a are archaic Euro-Asiatic haplogroups that are spread all over the place in the northern parts of Eurasia, from Europe to Central Asia!

There's not such thing as an 'European', 'African' or 'Asian' haplogorup. ALL Homo sapien haplogroups overlap each other in these continents!
Sure some regions have their own defined haplgroups that are evolved from archaic Homo sapien haplogorups like R, J, E etc...
 
Ok I understand. We are absolutly agree Goga.

Also, keep in mind that talk about "pure" Europeans is not real. Spaniards have little North African admixture, while Northern Europeans have West Asian in them. Only the Basques and some Baltic people will become really 100% European.

I know that haplogroups are quite diverse in Sepahrdic Jews. However, haplogroup T is rare in Europe, and a 6% in Sephardics Jews is very significant. It's not the same in Northern Europe, but a person with substantial Southern European ancestry for example, has more posibilities of jewish ancestry carrying this marker than others.
 
haplogroup T is rare in Europe, and a 6% in Sephardics Jews is very significant. It's not the same in Northern Europe, but a person with substantial Southern European ancestry for example, has more posibilities of jewish ancestry carrying this marker than others.
Archaic haplogroup T is not rare in Europe, it is spread all over the Europe! According to many scientists even the archaic haplogroup T originated in Asia, where the Elamites and the Persians lived.

790pxdistributionhaplog.png
 
Also, keep in mind that talk about "pure" Europeans is not real. Spaniards have little North African admixture, while Northern Europeans have West Asian in them. Only the Basques and some Baltic people will become really 100% European.
Yes haplogroups N and Q are native to the Baltics. Like they're native to Central Asian Turkic folks. Haplogroups R1, N and Q are native to the northern part of the Eurasian continent, from Europe to Central Asia!

Btw, did you know that Basques were related to the Etruscans? The Etruscans were West Asians. And Basques show some similarities with peoples in the Caucasus. Maybe those Basques are from the Caucasus???
 
The map you post of haplogroup T is wrong. Wikipedia (where the map comes from) is not reliable talking about genetics. Also reading the explanation they give it's easy to see some contradictions. Frequencies showed here in Eupidia are better, just think that more than 20% of haplogroup T around Central Europe is absurd...there is a lot of contrast comparing with Eupidia, I don't give any credit to wikipedia in this concrete issue.

I read something about the Etrucans and Basques, but don't know so much about it. What I know is that most of them are shown 100% European in admixture analysis, composed allmost entirely of West European and Mediterranean component. Some Iberians also can show similar proportions considering that they are more or less the same ethinc group, but they are a minority.

And if we check Lithuanians, for sure we'll find quite of them almost 100% European, of course much more Northern European than the Basques.
 
And if we check Lithuanians, for sure we'll find quite of them almost 100% European, of course much more Northern European than the Basques.
Yes, because their subclade of the more archaic haplogroup of N is native to Europe! 42% of Lithuanians belong to n1. So haplogroup N is native to Europe and Northern Asia (among Turkic folks). The same thing is with r1, haplogorup r1 is native to Europe AND Asia.
 

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