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Thread: Did you know that Kurds(Kurdish PeoPle) are Europeans?

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    I must recognize it's not imposible, but I see it more difficult to proof since the most part of haplogroup I it's found in mainland Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    There is absolutely NO proof that the archaic haplogroup I (M170) is from Europe. Many West Asians have that marker. Many scientists think it is from West Asia splited from West Asian IJ. But these are all theories…
    Be careful with those spaniards. They always deny the possibility of a Haplogroup come from outside Europe. Fortunately, not all Spanish are so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferreiro_ View Post
    Be careful with those spaniards. They always deny the possibility of a Haplogroup come from outside Europe. Fortunately, not all Spanish are so.
    Ok, but I'm here not to talk cheap or trash talk about somebody or some individuals.

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    Listen cockatoo, here we have a civilized discussion, and everybody understands how the thing was going before your noisy intervention.

    Get date for the psychiatrist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Accrording to the Croatian scientists:

    http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm
    It is entirely possible that the SNP M170 originated in Asia and then went extinct there, or it could have originated in Europe from IJ Cro-Magnon descendants (with the IJ going extinct in Europe). In fact, Haplogroup I bottlenecked significantly enough, and has been found in so few ancient DNA samples, that it's hard to tell much of anything about its earliest history.

    I will say that there's little doubt that IJ originated in Asia... the only other possibility I can even think of is North Africa, and that seems less likely to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferreiro_ View Post
    Be careful with those spaniards. They always deny the possibility of a Haplogroup come from outside Europe. Fortunately, not all Spanish are so.
    Knovas hasn't said anything wrong here. The center of diversity of Haplogroup I is in Europe. It's been in Europe for quite some time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The center of diversity of Haplogroup I is in Europe. It's been in Europe for quite some time.
    Maybe because European haplogroup I* had time and space to evolve further. West Asian haplogroup I* had not much time to develop further because it competed with other haplogroups?

    Maybe R1b folks migrated much earlier into West Asia than into West Europe. Haplogroup I also competed with Caucasian haplogroups like G and J2. And haplogroup I in Europe had NO competition...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Maybe because European haplogorup I* had time and space to evolve further. West Asian haplogorup I* had not much time to develop further because it competed with other haplogroups?
    What do you mean? SNPs develop independently of "space." I mean, a given line of Haplogroup I won't care if a bunch of Haplogroup J is nearby... all genetic drift does is to alter a distribution within a population, not along a certain line.

    If I* originated in Asia, its lines that remained entirely in Asia are unobserved in both modern and ancient DNA. The "I*" we see in studies have so far just meant that not enough SNPs were tested, according to Ken Nordtvedt. We haven't found IJ yet, either.

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    you mixed things up. Kurds are Indo-Europeans a linguistic family different from being "European" in cultural, historic and geographic meaning. God people like you are embarrassing. Before starting such nonsense topics go educate yourself.

    Can you speak kurdish? Ti kurdi zana? Tu Kurdi Zane?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Haplogroups don't tell so much about ethnicity. Must be considerated, but only Autosomoal DNA revels the full genetic History. And I think that Kurds have more Near Eastern (West and Southwest Asian) than European in their genome. We can take Kurds as Caucasoids, but not esentially Europeans.

    By the way, 6.5% of T is quite high. There are a few European regions scoring higher or more or less the same. Any European country in general terms will get a report like this.

    Haplogroup T is more related to the Near East and some African Populations. It is believed to originate around the red sea (probably Ethiopia). You can check the information in this forum. I think there are also several parts in India where its presence looks significant, but I'm not sure.
    Very right. But just to correct. Kurds are mainly of the "West Asian" component while the "South Westasian" is only a minor element. The "Mediterranean" Element (20-30%) is even higher among them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I'm afraid you are wrong. Dodecad (Dienekes') shows a completely different story.

    First of all, a population portrait of the Kurds to make it easy, based on the latest analysis: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPo...%2BKurd_12.png

    And second, the averages of populations, where you can compare and see that Spaniards, Italians, Greeks, etc., have a lot more European genes than the Kurds: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...COCa89AJ#gid=0

    If you just look at the Greek average, only the Mediterranean component goes at 46%, much more European than any Kurd, and if you look Spaniards the difference is higher.

    Kurds are Caucasoids, but not the same as Europeans just because some of them look like with light traits. Haplogroups only tell information about a first ancestor who lived thousands of years ago, the complete information is only posible to get in Autosomal analysis, and it's clear that Kurds have very significant Middle Eastern imput, and little from other non European places too. European component is less than 40% in Kurds. Also Haplogroup T, as I said, is easy to be asociated with Africa, Middle East and probably India.

    Thats what science says. Some of them really have European look, but does not necesarly mean they are the same. Of course Caucasoid populations (Europeans, Western Asians and North Africans) are related, but it's good to tell things exactly as they are.

    I agree totally with what you wrote however I have to fix somethings here too. When we download all the admixture maps uploaded by Dienekes, we see that he used the Xing et al. Kurds.

    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/...-european.html

    If we look at the study of Xing et al , we see this

    To study the relationship between the various West Asian Indo-European groups, I gathered an Iranian sample (from Behar et al.), an Iraqi Kurdish one (from Xing et al.),
    What I am trying to say is that we shouldnt take dienekes admixture of Kurds as representative and we probably would get some small but still obvious differences if a group of Turkish Kurds would have been used.

    We also see noticeable differences between Anatolian and Iraqi kurdish yDNA. The Former having more I2a*,G and less J2, J1, and R1b. the autosomal dna wil also have differences I assume.


    however it is clear that the Kurds are mainly West Asia, having Mediterranean as second strongest element and followed as minor Elements by South Westasian, West/East European and South Asian at least among Iraqi Kurds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Very right. But just to correct. Kurds are mainly of the "West Asian" component while the "South Westasian" is only a minor element. The "Mediterranean" Element (20-30%) is even higher among them.
    They also have 10% of South Asian component (that Dienekes links to Indo-Aryans) which is completely ubsent in Europe. Being related to Indo-Europeans does not equal with being European in DNA because some IE linguistic families had substantial non-European admixture since their formation (they were formed out of Europe). Indo-Aryans had South-Asian & West Asian while the Greco-Phrygo-Armenian group had only West Asian for example...

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    Quote Originally Posted by KurdishAryan View Post
    [B]lol you guys posted so much .. :)
    The only thing I can say, is that you are very wrong. I doubt that you are a Kurd. still doesen´t answered my Kurdish.
    Last edited by Alan; 13-07-11 at 13:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    They also have 10% of South Asian component (that Dienekes links to Indo-Aryans) which is completely ubsent in Europe. Being related to Indo-Europeans does not equal with being European in DNA because some IE linguistic families had substantial non-European admixture since their formation (they were formed out of Europe). Indo-Aryans had South-Asian & West Asian while the Greco-Phrygo-Armenian group had only West Asian for example...
    I think I mentioned this. Read above.
    Well to be exactly it is ~9% but South Asian is recently also found among European Groups. Something around 1-3%.

    And I wouldn´t link this to Indo-Aryans because Indo Aryans evolved somewhere different. I think it is recent Gene flow from East. However The South Asian component found among Kurds is even less than the West/East European component. And I think it is worse to be mentioned every time that the "South Asian" component is rather of "Ani-West Eurasian" Character than "Asi". This study is only representative for a small Group of Kurds mainly from Iraq.

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    Different Studies about Anatolian Kurds have shown that they are genetically most similar to Armenians. I also don´t understand why Dienekes is only using the Xing et al Data and tries to show it as representative while he also has studies about Kurds from Anatolia. Sometimes I got a feeling like, if he is trying to show Kurds as Northwest Iranians-Mesopotamian "Invaders" and Turks like "assimilated" Armenians to claim a "Armenian-Greek" heritage of Anatolia just like you are doing now.

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    Totally agree with you Alan, I forgot some details but wanted to say exactly the same. And also yes, South Asian component is not absent in Europe, but I'm not sure if all times would be real since scores like 0.5 %, 0.6 %, are quite usual. Tools are not perfect, and a margin of error must always be considered. However, there are several Europeans scoring more than 1%, wich seems to indicate not noise at all.

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    just wrong post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Different Studies about Anatolian Kurds have shown that they are genetically most similar to Armenians. I also don´t understand why Dienekes is only using the Xing et al Data and tries to show it as representative while he also has studies about Kurds from Anatolia. Sometimes I got a feeling like, if he is trying to show Kurds as Northwest Iranians-Mesopotamian "Invaders" and Turks like "assimilated" Armenians to claim a "Armenian-Greek" heritage of Anatolia just like you are doing now.
    I don't think Dienekes has anything against Kurds, the reason he attributes South Asian to Indo-Aryans is because it is present in all modern groups that speak an Indo-Iranian language. BTW I thought that Kurds were actually a North West Iranian group, do you have an other theory? And why do you deny the Mesopotamian influence on Kurds, isn't Kurdistan located in North Mesopotamia/South East Anatolia?

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    Offcourse this doesn't mean that Kurds are invaders in Anatolia because Iranian presense there is from very ancient times

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    I don't think Dienekes has anything against Kurds, the reason he attributes South Asian to Indo-Aryans is because it is present in all modern groups that speak an Indo-Iranian language.
    There is some Indo Aryan component in Kurds because of the east Iranian folks like the Bactrians and Sogdians. West Iranian folks like the Medes had many international treaties with the East Iranian folks. Once East Iranians even took part in the Median Empire.

    West Iranians (Medes) are not the same as East Iranians (Bactrians, Sogdians). East Iranians have almost no i* and more r1a than West Iranians.

    According to the same Dienekes, original Aryans migrated from West Asia into northern India. Because there's a too high West Asian component (j2, g) in the Indo Aryan population.

    Notice, Indo Aryans are not the same as Aryans…

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    I don't think Dienekes has anything against Kurds, the reason he attributes South Asian to Indo-Aryans is because it is present in all modern groups that speak an Indo-Iranian language. BTW I thought that Kurds were actually a North West Iranian group, do you have an other theory? And why do you deny the Mesopotamian influence on Kurds, isn't Kurdistan located in North Mesopotamia/South East Anatolia?
    No sorry my friend you did understand me wrong. Sometimes I have hard time to make me clear(This is my own fault). I meant that he used the Xing et al Kurds which were mainly or all from Iraq you see it in the study. And Dienekes calls their admixture "Kurdish" as if it is representative for all Kurds while he obviously knows about studies from Kurds in Anatolia too. So why dont use them? This is my point. I am not saying that he has a bias against Kurds. It simple seems to me as if he tries to show the Kurds being originally from Northwest Iran and as if Armenians and Greeks are the real natives to Anatolia.

    Well about Kurds being from Northwest Iran. This is wrong. Kurds just like any Group of this world have different ancestors. Many Kurds in Anatolia are actually descend from Hurrians(mittanni)-Gutians, Scythians, Cimmerians. While the Kurds from Northwest Iran probably have the same ancestors but also some more like Medes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I am not saying that he has a bias against Kurds. It simple seems to me as if he tries to show the Kurds being originally from Northwest Iran and as if Armenians and Greeks are the real natives to Anatolia.
    .
    I think that Dienekes never claimed a native origin for Greeks in Anatolia (allthough Anatolian Greeks would have a large native ancestry) while Armenians seem really native in their land. Anatolian Kurds share also native ancestry moreso then Greeks but propably less then Armenians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    you mixed things up. Kurds are Indo-Europeans a linguistic family different from being "European" in cultural, historic and geographic meaning. God people like you are embarrassing. Before starting such nonsense topics go educate yourself.

    Can you speak kurdish? Ti kurdi zana? Tu Kurdi Zane?
    lol what is your problem are you ok .
    kurds are european or indo european too like spanish or italian people see dna tests .

    see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indoeurop%C3%A4er

    kurds are not arabs or mongolian turks. and dont be worry i educated myself.and i can speak kurdish ( Ez kurdî zanim )and now..

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    bashe tu kurde ku der u cend sali

    Still this doesent change that you have no knowledge what you are talking about. All Users including me told you that you are wrong.

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    Sorry KurdishAryan, it's all perfectly explained. Think what you want, I personally find Kurds very interesting for their usual European look, but this and Y-DNA is not enough to consider them genetically Europeans. Admixture analysis are clear in that issue.

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