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Thread: Did you know that Kurds(Kurdish PeoPle) are Europeans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Not sure what you are trying to say, but Farsi is a SOUTHWestern Iranian lanuage. While Kurdish is a Northwestern Iranian language. All Kurdic dialects are Northwestern, including Zazaki/Gorani and Sorani.

    Kurmanji, Feyli, Gorani/Zazaki, Sorani are all dialects evolved from proto-Kurdic, NorthWest Iranian. All of them have the same roots. But because of the mountains and geography there is a variation of dialects within a pan-Kurdic group.

    You can see this everywheren, from Germany to Italy. I mean in Italy people in Southern Italy speak their own local Italian dialect. People from northern Italy have hard times to understand it. Even in a such a small flat country as Holland there are many dialects..
    Accent and Diaelcts are different. If there is a different just in pronounsation it is accent. However if there is also differences in grammer, it is dialect.

    Sorani is grammerly different then Kurmanji (Gender İssue) and Zaza language is more different then both (check my language tree, Zazaki became an unique branch before Sorani-Kurmanji division.



    Zazaki is more more different.

    Even this tree is controversial. Some scientist put Gorani-Zazaki branch a place different then Kurdic languages

    NORTHWEST-IRANIAN:
    Hyrkanian Group:
    Balōčī, Sangesarī; Goranī, Zaza (Dımılki)
    Karmanian Group:
    Kurdish (Kurmanjī, Soranī, South-Kurdish), Sivandī
    Medo-Caspian Group:
    Gīlakī, Māzenderānī, Semnāni, Sorcheī; Tāleshī, Āsarī

    http://www.zazaki.net/haber/the-zaza...eople-1131.htm

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    That is pretty interesting especially since Roman historian Tacitus once wrote about the "White Aethiopians" assuming they came from the region of India. Would also explain the 6% y-DNA Chinese cluster to a degree. Do you have any updated list that you consider accurate when it comes to the frequencies worldwide?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Accent and Diaelcts are different. If there is a different just in pronounsation it is accent. However if there is also differences in grammer, it is dialect.

    Sorani is grammerly different then Kurmanji (Gender İssue) and Zaza language is more different then both (check my language tree, Zazaki became an unique branch before Sorani-Kurmanji division.



    Zazaki is more more different.

    Even this tree is controversial. Some scientist put Gorani-Zazaki branch a place different then Kurdic languages

    NORTHWEST-IRANIAN:
    Hyrkanian Group:
    Balōčī, Sangesarī; Goranī, Zaza (Dımılki)
    Karmanian Group:
    Kurdish (Kurmanjī, Soranī, South-Kurdish), Sivandī
    Medo-Caspian Group:
    Gīlakī, Māzenderānī, Semnāni, Sorcheī; Tāleshī, Āsarī

    http://www.zazaki.net/haber/the-zaza...eople-1131.htm
    Italian DIALECTS!









    Same can be said about Kurdish DIALECTS. All those Kurdish DIALECTS are part of the Kurdish language. All of them stem from proto-Kurdic. That's why we call all of them 'Kurdish' LANGUAGES.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    German DIALECTS!









    Same can be said about Kurdish DIALECTS. All those Kurdish DIALECTS (Zazaki/Gorani, Sorani, Kurmanji, Feyli) are part of the Kurdish language. All of them stem from proto-Kurdic. That's why we call them all 'Kurdish' LANGUAGES. Zazaki & Gorani are as much Kurdish as Kurmanji.

    That's why Great Kurdistan has to be a federation like Germany.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Accent and Diaelcts are different. If there is a different just in pronounsation it is accent. However if there is also differences in grammer, it is dialect.

    Sorani is grammerly different then Kurmanji (Gender İssue) and Zaza language is more different then both (check my language tree, Zazaki became an unique branch before Sorani-Kurmanji division.



    Zazaki is more more different.

    Even this tree is controversial. Some scientist put Gorani-Zazaki branch a place different then Kurdic languages

    NORTHWEST-IRANIAN:
    Hyrkanian Group:
    Balōčī, Sangesarī; Goranī, Zaza (Dımılki)
    Karmanian Group:
    Kurdish (Kurmanjī, Soranī, South-Kurdish), Sivandī
    Medo-Caspian Group:
    Gīlakī, Māzenderānī, Semnāni, Sorcheī; Tāleshī, Āsarī

    http://www.zazaki.net/haber/the-zaza...eople-1131.htm
    The Zaza people classify themselves as kurds ................they originate from south Caspian area , ancient Proto-Medes , they live mostly around west of lake Van and around susan. They have as one of their main haplogroup is T-M184

    Zaza belongs to the Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family. From the point of view of the spoken language, its closest relatives are Mazandarani, Hewrami, Gilaki and other Caspian languages. However, the classification of Zaza has been an issue of political discussion. It is sometimes classified as a subdialect of Kurdish.[7][8][9][10] The majority of Zaza-speakers in Turkey identify themselves as ethnic Kurds.[11][12]


    Evliya Çelebi explicity included Zaza among the Kurdish dialects; Kurdish Alevis, however, he often brought together with their Turkish co-religionists and the Safavids under the label of "Kızılbaş".
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The Zaza people classify themselves as kurds ................they originate from south Caspian area , ancient Proto-Medes , they live mostly around west of lake Van and around susan. They have as one of their main haplogroup is T-M184
    Genetically Zazaki Kurds are the same as other Kurds. I don't know why some folks try to make Zazaki a separate language, but Zazaki is as much Kurdish as Kurmanji, since both are evolved from proto-Kurdic language. Zazaki is just 1 of the separate dialects of pan-Kurdish Language.


    " Our results also do not support the hypothesis of the origin of the Zazaki –speaking group being in northern Iran; genetically they are more similar to other Kurdish groups.

    Genetically, it turned out that Zazaki speakers overall group quite closely with other Kurdish groups, and with their geographic neighbours from the South Caucasus for mtDNA, and with Kurmanji-T for the Y-SNP haplogroups. The previous hypothesis of a close relationship of the Zaza people to populations from northern Iran (MacKenzie, 1962) therefore does not gain genetic support, although the genetic evidence of course does not preclude a northern Iranian origin for the Zazaki language itself.
    "

    http://mid-atlanticroots.com/familyh...h%20Groups.pdf

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.00174.x/full

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Genetically Zazaki Kurds are the same as other Kurds. I don't know why some folks try to make Zazaki a separate language, but Zazaki is as much Kurdish as Kurmanji, since both are evolved from proto-Kurdic language. Zazaki is just 1 of the separate dialects of pan-Kurdish Language.


    " Our results also do not support the hypothesis of the origin of the Zazaki –speaking group being in northern Iran; genetically they are more similar to other Kurdish groups.

    Genetically, it turned out that Zazaki speakers overall group quite closely with other Kurdish groups, and with their geographic neighbours from the South Caucasus for mtDNA, and with Kurmanji-T for the Y-SNP haplogroups. The previous hypothesis of a close relationship of the Zaza people to populations from northern Iran (MacKenzie, 1962) therefore does not gain genetic support, although the genetic evidence of course does not preclude a northern Iranian origin for the Zazaki language itself.
    "

    http://mid-atlanticroots.com/familyh...h%20Groups.pdf

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.00174.x/full
    ok

    but this paper below is also a view on the area

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2011192a.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    ok

    but this paper below is also a view on the area

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2011192a.html
    Yeah, but Armenians and Kurds lived next to each other before the Armenian Genocide comitted by the Ottoman Turks. Actually, 75% of my (Ezdi Kurdish) ancestors came from Wan-Kars region. In the past there were many Ezdi villages, nowadays there are 0. Everyone who was not a Muslim was killed if he/she didn't fled to the Russian Empire at that time. Armenians were Christians, my people were Ezdi Kurds. Turkish Muslims also comitted a genocided on my people. Hundreds of thousands Ezdi Kurds were massacred during the genocide.

    Kurds, Armenians and Greeks lived next to each other. But when Greeks, Armenians and Ezdi Kurds were killed, deported or fled their areas, the only people that stayed were 2-3 million Kurds. Kurds were considered as Muslims by Turks, and therefore not really dangerous. The Kurdish population grew the last 100 years to more than 30 million Kurds in Northern Kurdistan, whle Armenians disappeared.

    What I'm trying to say is that Kurds were always native to Northern Kurdistan, and they did't came from Iran. The issue is that Armenians were klled and outrooted from Anatolia untill they disappeasred completely in Northern Kurdistan. And because of this situation the Kurds became an absolute majority in Northern Kurdistan. Kurds didn't come from anywhere, they just made many children and their population was grown, while Armenian populations just died out because of the genocide comitted by the Muslim Ottoman Turks. But Kurds alwasy have been living in Northern Kurdistan.


    It is like the Holocaust in Poland. If millions of Jews were not killed in Poland, there would be a huge population of the Jews in Poland.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Zaza belongs to the Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family. From the point of view of the spoken language, its closest relatives are Mazandarani, Hewrami, Gilaki and other Caspian languages. However, the classification of Zaza has been an issue of political discussion. It is sometimes classified as a subdialect of Kurdish.[7][8][9][10] The majority of Zaza-speakers in Turkey identify themselves as ethnic Kurds.[11][12]

    Evliya Çelebi explicity included Zaza among the Kurdish dialects; Kurdish Alevis, however, he often brought together with their Turkish co-religionists and the Safavids under the label of "Kızılbaş".
    True information is here. Thanks Sile

    Lingustically, Zazaki has close relation with some other iranic languages, not Kurmanji or Sorani. Of cource all of the North Western Iranan languages but there are different branches in it.

    If they call themself Kurd, it is historical-political.

    and they have also Alevi/Kızılbaş term is also very common. Sometimes religion and ethicity mix in the each other as in Ezidi.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    This tree is wrong on many levels. According to this tree Kurdish is a South West Iranian language and evolved from the Middle Persian, lol. This is wrong big time.

    Kurds are the Medes and NOT Persians. Although in the past there were not so much differences between Persians and the Medes.

    Kurdish is a NORTH Western Iranian language. And it is NOT from the Middle Persian. I give you a very simple reason. Kurdish has an ergative contruction, while Middle Persian largely lost ergative case-marking, but preserve ergative verb-agreement. Modern Farsi doesn't have any ergative in it anymore at all.

    http://www.iranicaonline.org/article...e-construction


    A language can't lose and regain ergativity back again.


    Kurdish is a much more pure and archaic West Iranian language than Farsi. Actually it is maybe even the most purest and archaic language of the whole Iranic and Indic & Dardic language branch.

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    This is the best tree for Kurdish, made by Kurds and not by Persians, Arabs and Turks, lol.





    http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/159

    http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/41

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    About Zazaki/Dimili dialect.

    http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/47



    It has been said that most Kurds spoke a Dimilí dialect at one point in the past. But one of the Kurmanji tribes became very strong & powerfull and Kurmanji dialect became more popular in Kurdistan and most Kurds shifted to Kurmanji dialect. Kurmanji is majority nowadays. Only Kurds in peripheral areas of Kurdistan continued to speak Zazaki/Dimili/Gorani. That's why we see Kurds speaking Zazaki/Dimili/Gorani only in peripheral NorthWestern parts and SouthEastern parts of Kurdistan.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    This tree is wrong on many levels. According to this tree Kurdish is a South West Iranian language and evolved from the Middle Persian, lol. This is wrong big time.
    It doesn't say something like that. Evoling Middle Persian???, not try to add something buddy. It says that Kurdish and Persian devision, even before Old Persian.

    Kurdish, Baloci and Persian coming from seperate lines in the map. I guess South West Iranian term is also eyes mistake. Because of narrow place it seems like on Kurdish. The real South West Irainan Languages are Persian, tajik, Dari etc. and their connection can be seen in the map.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    This is the best tree for Kurdish, made by Kurds and not by Persians, Arabs and Turks, lol.
    That is also reason why I shouldn't believe it but Zazaki position seems just add into it later. Even not in main Northen-Central-Soutn Kurdish branches.

    If it is an undeniable certain truth, everybody should agree on it, but not.


    Good detailed language tree of all indo-european languages

    http://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/zaza1244

    Accepting Turkificated people is easy but why it is not easy to accept Kurdificated ones.

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    No way, that map is wrong and misleading!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Accepting Turkificated people is easy but why it is not easy to accept Kurdificated ones.
    Huh? that's not really an issue. At the first place Zazaki Kurds are like all other Kurds NorthWest Iranian people. They belong to the same ethnicity as Kurds. Nobody is trying to change their race.

    Turkification means that Turks are trying to change peoples race into Turkic race, and try to asimilate them and change their DNA and let forget them their roots.

    There is no Kurd who is trying to 'assimilate' any Zazaki, change their DNA or change their language. We love ALL of our Kurdish dialects. We are proud of it! Like Ezdi Kurds, Zazaki Kurds will get their own federation within Kurdistan. Kurds are helping Zazaki Kurds to save their language and identity.

    Zazaki DNA is identical to the DNA of other Kurds. Racially speaking they ARE Kurds.

    Their language is interesting, but of all Kurdish dialects it is the most similar to Gorani dialect. Zazaki is like Gorani. I mean when everybody is considering GOrani Kurds as Kurds, why should we not consider Zazaki Kurds also as Kurds. Gorani and Zazaki are the same people.

    And Gorani Kurds have always have been considering themselves as Kurds. Zazaki are like Gorani. Gorani are very proud Kurds and never took any distance from other Kurds. Gorani Kurds contributed heavily to our Kurdish culture and history, especially in SouthEast Kurdistan.

    Zazaki Kurds are like Gorani Kurds. Zazaki Kurds also contributed heavily to our Kurdish culture and history, especially in Northern Kurdistan. The most patriotic & nationalistic Kurds of Northern Kurdistan are Zazaki Kurds. Zazaki Kurds are taking the highest positions within PKK. Many of our PKK leaders are Zazaki Kurds. They are true warriors and they sacrificed a lot for Great Kurdistan. Many Zazaki Kurds are in Qandil now and they are figinting with great passion against the Turkish state.

    Zazaki, Gorani Kurds are as much Kurds as I'm am. Some Zazaki Kurds say that they are own nation, like some Ezdi Kurds say that Ezdi are not Kurds. But this has to do with politics and less with dialect.
    Like Ezdi Kurds, some Zazaki Kurds are angry at Sunni Muslim Kurds. Those who are angry at Sunni Kurds belong mostly to an Alevi sect. In the ancient times native Zazaki religion was very similar to the Yezidism. They also believed in Angels and had the same sacred days.

    As an Kurmnaji Ezdi Kurd I do understand why some Zaaki Kurds are angry at Sunni Kurds. I can understand their feelings, I'm also angry at Sunni Kurds. But no matter how angry some Zazaki (Alevi) Kurds or Ezdi Kurds are at Sunni Muslim Kurds, we are still racially speaking all ethnic Kurds.


    I love all types of Kurds. It is our richness. If they consider themselves as Kurds, then who am I to deny their Kurdishness?


    Btw, many Zaza Kurds don't speak Dimili (Zazaki), but they speak Kurmanji as their native language.
    Last edited by Goga; 10-01-17 at 14:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No way, that map is wrong and misleading!
    I told you, your thesis about the map is totaly wrong. You just misjudge it because you looked rapidly. It won't say that Kurdish is coming for Persian. They were seperate line.

    I won't believe your thesis just because you told me it is not a like that. SORRY

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    At the first place Zazaki Kurds are like all other Kurds NorthWest Iranian people. They belong to the same ethnicity as Kurds.
    Yes they are speaking NorthWest Iranian language as other non Kurd nations (Caspians)

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Their language is interesting, but of all Kurdish dialects it is the most similar to Gorani dialect. Zazaki is like Gorani. I mean when everybody is considering GOrani Kurds as Kurds, why should we not consider Zazaki Kurds also as Kurds. Gorani and Zazaki are the same people.

    And Gorani Kurds have always have been considering themselves as Kurds. Zazaki are like Gorani. Gorani are very proud Kurds and never took any distance from other Kurds. Gorani Kurds contributed heavily to our Kurdish culture and history, especially in SouthEast Kurdistan.

    Zazaki Kurds are like Gorani Kurds. Zazaki Kurds also contributed heavily to our Kurdish culture and history, especially in Northern Kurdistan. The most patriotic & nationalistic Kurds of Northern Kurdistan are Zazaki Kurds. Zazaki Kurds are taking the highest positions within PKK. Many of our PKK leaders are Zazaki Kurds. They are true warriors and they sacrificed a lot for Great Kurdistan. Many Zazaki Kurds are in Qandil now and they are figinting with great passion against the Turkish state.

    Zazaki, Gorani Kurds are as much Kurds as I'm am.
    It is funny you are using Gorani people. Zazaki and Gorani languages are both consider different branch of Kurdish.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I love all types of Kurds. It is our richness. If they consider themselves as Kurds, then who am I to deny their Kurdishness?
    Exactly, just people themselves can agree to it. Even that means seperation between Zaza people.

    Thanks to you, I found Armenian linguist Sevan Nisanyan opinion about the issue. Now I am more sure about my thought.
    http://www.ntv.com.tr/turkiye/zazaca...K0KKbKURVg-TNQ (Turkish)

    He is far from Turkish and Kurdish pro-nationalism.

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    I hope this is my last reply on this issue. This discussion is useless.

    Armenian, lol?! Armenians are the first people who try to divide Ezdi Kurds from other Kurds. I don't see any difference between Armenian and Turks in regard to Kurdish race and Kurdish issue. I'm done. You can’t change the reality. Zaza Kurds are ethnic Kurds and they (majority andtheir leadership) consider themselves to be Kurds.

    I'm an Ezdi Kurmanji Kurd. I know what persecution by Muslims is. I do consider Zazaki people as my people. Like me and other Ezdi, also Zazaki are also unique tribe within a Kurdish race. I'm not trying to make them like me. I want them to stay who they are, because they are unique, like me. Evert unique KURDISH subculture needs to be cherished. It is our pride to have so many different flavours in our culture. This is what makes us Aryan people. That's why I'm sure they will have their own federal state within Great Kurdistan. Like there will a federal Ezdixan (Ezdi state) within 1 Great Kurdistan, from Dersim, Amed down to Mehabad and Kermanshah in eastern Kurdistan


    Zazaki (Dimili) & Gorani are part of the Pahlawani group. Kurdish Pahlawani group has been somehow more mixed with the language of the Parthians. While Kurmanji and Sorani are more pure dialects of the Medes.

    Kurmanji & Sorani = modern Median
    Dimili (Zazaki) & Gorani = Median + a little bit of Parthian


    It is how it is and nobody can do anything about it. I'm not trying to convince anybody. I'm just saying that Kurds are not idiots and know who they are and know very well who is one of them and who is their enemy.

    Bye!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I hope this is my last reply on this issue. This discussion is useless.
    I agree, it is useless

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Armenian, lol?! Armenians are the first people who try to divide Ezdi Kurds from other Kurds. I don't see any difference between Armenian and Turks in regard to Kurdish race and Kurdish issue.
    My Brain is gone.

    Armenian logic; Kurds = Turks
    Turk logic; Kurds = Armenian
    Kurd logic; Armenian = Turks

    You gave me a good story


    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I'm done. You can’t change the reality. Zaza Kurds are ethnic Kurds and they (majority andtheir leadership) consider themselves to be Kurds.
    Neither you can't change the reality. I have Zaza friends who say that they are firstly Alevi. They also hate muslim Kurds as well and have no sympathy against Ezidism or Ezidi Kurds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I'm an Ezdi Kurmanji Kurd. I know what persecution by Muslims is.
    As I said, I am not an offical muslim. Keep your ideas about muslim with you. They are not revelant in this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I do consider Zazaki people as my people. Like me and other Ezdi, also Zazaki are also unique tribe within a Kurdish race. I'm not trying to make them like me. I want them to stay who they are, because they are unique, like me. Evert unique KURDISH subculture needs to be cherished. It is our pride to have so many different flavours in our culture. This is what makes us Aryan people. That's why I'm sure they will have their own federal state within Great Kurdistan. Like there will a federal Ezdixan (Ezdi state) within 1 Great Kurdistan, from Dersim, Amed down to Mehabad and Kermanshah in eastern Kurdistan
    Are you ready to hear that some of them prefer to live with side by side Turk Alevi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Zazaki (Dimili) & Gorani are part of the Pahlawani group. Kurdish Pahlawani group has been somehow more mixed with the language of the Parthians. While Kurmanji and Sorani are more pure dialects of the Medes.

    Kurmanji & Sorani = modern Median
    Dimili (Zazaki) & Gorani = Median + a little bit of Parthian
    I don't deny that Kurds are the closest nations to them.

    As in Bulgarian - Macedonian example you can't stop the born of nations or you can't stop decleration of a country. Iraq Kurdistan is nearest example.

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    European principles of freedoms and independence was forged in centuries of national and ethnic conflicts and wars. Europe today is a small continent but with 50 nations. If anyone, Europe understands importance of freedom and independence for any peoples.
    The issue is not that your principles of freedoms is forged in centuries of national and ethnic conflicts and wars or not, its that when these centuries of national and ethnic conflicts and wars happened when Europe was and still is first world sovereign nations, what ever political direction a nation takes it is a result of a will of its people without outside influence (through indoctrination) and a general intention and understanding that they are will part of the whole european scheme, and not to be manipulated by other countries into being used against their neighbors.

    I used to say the same years ago when I used to see conflicts in another country between two groups of people in the new, they should just let it go and give the other group the freedom to do whatever they want, now I know I was wrong.

    You are not in position to teach us, but to learn from us.
    The hell I won't!!!

    Now, this is Turkish propaganda. Such strong unity of thoughts doesn't exist. Especially in ethnically mixed country like Turkey, Syria or Iraq .
    I meant other than kurds. Others = Turks and non Turks (the region)
    I'm afraid that you are deeply misguided if you think this is Turkish propaganda. This is real.


    You think European people are not intelligent enough to have their own independent thought and need oligarchy to decide for them?!!!
    Thats a logical fallicy (irrelevant conclusion), saying that a financial oligarchy exists in the west does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that the reason for their existence is a lack of intelligence on the part of Europeans.

    See a documentary on Youtube called "A Decade of Deception". Its a documentary made by respected experts in Structural Engineering, Physics, Chemistry, and History. They give their professional opinion on the official account of 9/11. Now give me an interruptive model that can explain 9/11 better than a conspiring oligarchy? on the existence of which 9/11 is not my main evidence, but its an easy example this is why I use it.

    Good, they should get their independence too. Why the heck it scares you so much?!
    Imagine Scotland have referendum about its independance. Oh, wait, you don't need to, they actually did have it in real life. People decided about their future! Imagine that! If Britten allow it for Scots, why Turkey can't allow it for Kurds?

    Fight the straw man as long as you want, but that won't be addressing my point. I gave a scenario in which the independence of Scotland is one factor among many: the west being a 3rd world countries, 1st world countries conspiring against them (wars, coups, control of western armies, control of western governments...etc), Scotland being used to divide other western countries to create small cantons and put puppets on them...etc

    You might still say that you would let Scotland leave, but you would be foolish. Nonetheless I don't think that this will be your opinion when it really happens, I use to say the same thing about other countries when I used to see them fight in the News, but now I know how its like.

    Again, please learn how it is done in free western world.
    An argument does not become right by merely it being western, you have to logically prove it.
    I say this because you did the same thing in your first post

    By understanding of Western free and democratic world,any ethnic group should have a right to separate into own independent country, by means of referendum.



    They are actually quite genetically distinct, especially from West Turks who are genetically more like Greeks
    Kurds themselves are genetically distinct from each other from area to another, very diverse group.
    But I said almost identical, not completely identical. Lets use the word similar if thats better


    There are also some enclaves in Turkey where people have strong genetic similarities with central Asian Turkic populations.Remember, you are posting on Genetic Anthropology forums
    Rare enclaves, central Asian DNA in Anatolian is very low (at most 4-10% at most in average)


    Regardless, genetic differences or similarities are not a prerequisite for independence or against it, for any population
    I know, I think its primitive group yourself based on race or genetics, like an animal, rather than the higher level of connection (intellect: ideology, values and culture) But I say geniality for the sake of the argument in case someone thinks its important


    It is time you should learn this.
    Thats very condescending of you. My disagreement with you is not because I didn't learn from your glorious endless sea of wisdom and "It is time I should learn this" Rather, I understand your point of view but disagree with it. I gave the criteria that I think justifies a call for independence.
    i.e: Religion, culture, ideology, social habits, geography..etc. and most importantly not being used by your enemies against you after you gain independence.

    The reason? I gave logical reasoning to justify iti.e: we are in a state of war and suffering from western oligarchy aggression, thus cannot afford to act like we are in state of peace, there is a place and time for everything. Otherwise the aggression is not going to stop and every group will be indoctrinated with gross, ignorant, reactionary, historically delusional, and hateful ideology to divide us even based on the smallest differences such as shoe size. Instead of replying in a logical way you state your opinions as if you doing so makes it self-evident.

    Which also applies to this:

    Once again, you should learn from Europeans, and stop teaching us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Yeah, but Armenians and Kurds lived next to each other before the Armenian Genocide comitted by the Ottoman Turks. Actually, 75% of my (Ezdi Kurdish) ancestors came from Wan-Kars region. In the past there were many Ezdi villages, nowadays there are 0. Everyone who was not a Muslim was killed if he/she didn't fled to the Russian Empire at that time. Armenians were Christians, my people were Ezdi Kurds. Turkish Muslims also comitted a genocided on my people. Hundreds of thousands Ezdi Kurds were massacred during the genocide.

    Kurds, Armenians and Greeks lived next to each other. But when Greeks, Armenians and Ezdi Kurds were killed, deported or fled their areas, the only people that stayed were 2-3 million Kurds. Kurds were considered as Muslims by Turks, and therefore not really dangerous. The Kurdish population grew the last 100 years to more than 30 million Kurds in Northern Kurdistan, whle Armenians disappeared.

    What I'm trying to say is that Kurds were always native to Northern Kurdistan, and they did't came from Iran. The issue is that Armenians were klled and outrooted from Anatolia untill they disappeasred completely in Northern Kurdistan. And because of this situation the Kurds became an absolute majority in Northern Kurdistan. Kurds didn't come from anywhere, they just made many children and their population was grown, while Armenian populations just died out because of the genocide comitted by the Muslim Ottoman Turks. But Kurds alwasy have been living in Northern Kurdistan.


    It is like the Holocaust in Poland. If millions of Jews were not killed in Poland, there would be a huge population of the Jews in Poland.

    And when this "genocide" happened they moved to Syria less than a few decades ago, and now they want to claim these regions in Syria for them

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    Quote Originally Posted by hgfds View Post
    And when this "genocide" happened they moved to Syria less than a few decades ago, and now they want to claim these regions in Syria for them
    When is the world going to give them justice............there are over 25 million Kurds who have no nation, it does seem ridiculous , don't you agree .

    Why we listening to Turkey ?............when the Turks have only been in Turkey for 1000years and only comprise of 15% of the Turkish population ? .............The whole UN is based on bribes it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post






    I had to fit Venetian in these sentences

    Mejo un ovo anco` ke un galina doman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Why we listening to Turkey ?............when the Turks have only been in Turkey for 1000years
    Haa, Man who lives in the New World Speaks.

    After thinking Anglo-Saksons have only been in Britain for 1500 years

    After thinking the history of Slavs in the Balkans

    Have I mentiond Russians?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    and only comprise of 15% of the Turkish population ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    .............The whole UN is based on bribes it seems.
    After the thing who is the member of United Nations Security Council and even the members of the same block making shity things to each other. It makes sence

    US-France
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...acceptable-nsa

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Maybe we should get the definitions down. Modern day Turks are Anatolians with some minority Turkic ancestry which arrived more recently, i.e. in the last 1000 years. That's hardly a reason to say that modern day Turks are newcomers to Turkey.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    I'm not in the business of bashing fantasies (Turkish nationalists and Kurds), but In my opinion that Kurdishnnes, same as Anatolian Turkishness, are relatively (in relative to the age of history) new identities and a result of mixture of not only multiple races but even ethnicities.

    I don't know if I'm making sense anthropologically, but I think that genetically and culturally we can see relative homogeneity and continuity among people in places such as Europe, Egypt, North Africa, Sub Saharan Africa, east asians, Semites...etc. Yes maybe initially in the beginning there were different (although relatively limited) races/ethnicities but then merged to form a new culture/ethnicity/race early in human history. Europeans were mainly Haplogroup I and then R1 entered early in history on the line, they merged and local cultures formed. North Africans still show hight frequencies of Haplogroup E1b1b, 75% in Morocco. Excluding new influence we find that they had very hight frequencies of that maybe with other minor influences from semitic world. Also Egyptian civilization is an authentic civilization from its indigenous people, same fore east asians, semitic, African...etc

    So my observation is that later civilizations that emerged later were a mixture of these primary civilizations in many ways, manly genetically and culturally. Similar to the primary colors (Red, Yellow, Blue) that creates all other colors. For example, I'm proud of Turanic heritage, but I know that I only have little Turanic blood. So before a 1000 years before that Turanic culture dominated my ancestors in Anatolia, what culture they belonged to? Maybe part of Anatolia was European (East Roman) and the other part was influenced by Semitic (Arab conquest) What about before that? I don't know, because turkey is very diverse there is no one racial/cultural/ethnic group that have always lived there. So I think it is difficult to say (My ancestors x thousands of years ago was such and such and i'm their descendants and my culture is a continuation of them) and I don't think that there is anything wrong with that although I know some might not like it


    I think this is the same case in Iranian cultures, including Kurdish. It is difficult to pin point an exact ancestor and say that this is my ancestor and I descend from him culturally/racially. Because these cultures are layers upon layers of different races/ethnicities/cultures. Proto-Iranians mixed with the Pre- Iranian people of the iranian plateau and with nearby peoples, including the semites whom's cultures they adopted and inherited. The Proto-Iranians were absorbed by these layers and later was influenced by Greek, Roman and Indian, and to a lesser extent Egyptian culture, and added to them (such as the creation of Zoroastrianism) to create this melting pot that we know as Iranian cultures, most famously the Persian empire. This dynamic of the broad group that we call Iranian cultures continued until recent history. Historians as recent as the islamic era used the word "Kurds" to refer nomads of all different groups and ethnicities, then relatively recently they became one group.


    So to pin point one or two groups of people out of this melting pot and say that they created all or most of this, and further more to try to show a continuity from the Sumerians and claim that the latter group was simply Proto-Kurdish (or any other group) minus the Indo-Iranian component (which is represented genetically by the Haplogroup R1) is beyond delusional and absurd.
    Last edited by hgfds; 14-02-17 at 20:14.

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    @hgfds

    most of times influence works 'vice-versa'
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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