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Thread: Did you know that Kurds(Kurdish PeoPle) are Europeans?

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    Lightbulb Did you know that Kurds(Kurdish PeoPle) are Europeans?

    hi guys.. here i want to tell you some informations about Kurds..

    here:

    Kurds are a nation/PeoPle of " unofficial "Kurdia/Kurdistan state and "official " PeoPle of Kurdia/Kurdistan settlement area .

    Language: Kurdish ,is an indoeuroPean language.
    more info of kurdish language here :

    http://www.institutkurde.org/en/language/
    http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/41

    Population 2011 :
    about 50.000.000

    and Religion of Kurds: Christianity, Judaism,Islam,Yezidi,Alevi. and a lot of kurds were assimilated by turkish ottomans..

    Flag of Kurdistan:


    Kurdia/Kurdistan ´s "unofficial" map ,"official " settlement area . :



    now official Kurdia/Kurdistan autonomous republic in Southkurdistan :
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan

    --------------------------------------…
    Kurdish PeoPle : Studies show that Kurds have a stronger european genetic make-up then Greeks,Southern italians and Spanish people.

    Y-DNA Haplogroups in North Kurdistan :
    I -25%
    R1a -19.5%
    R1b -8%
    G -12.5%
    J2 - 7%
    J1 -0%
    E -2.5%
    T- 6.5%

    Here see , scroll completedown... :

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
    --------------------------------------…
    and see here ALL EUROPEAN MINORITIES including kurdish PeoPle :

    http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp

    ...and kurdia/kurdistan @ALL EUROPEAN MINORITIES :

    http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...minorities=337

    ------------

    and see here kurdish aryan European race .. kurdish PeoPle (video) . :

    1- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmC2uWESEM

    2- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hHMwCE3ECU

    3- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kn6u..._order&list=UL

    Kurdia/Kurdistan and EUROPE :

    CLICK!
    http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg


    -----

    See dna tests kurds have not asian dna tests but dna s like greek/italian/sPanish people ,thats fact . im north kurd so kurd from northkurdistan ("turkish kurdistan" ) and see dna tests here:

    See (turkish kurdistan)

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

    and why you think why these europeans placed kurdistan to europe ? if kurds would be not europeans then they would not put kurdistan to europe map and to european MINORITIES see : http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp
    why these european website have not put iraq or iran to europe ? .. because they are not european, this is true europe if yo ucan accept or not , so now forget religions in this are.. thsi is true europe :

    http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg
    so ..now my question.. did you know all that.. ? :)

    greets


    Last edited by KurdishAryan; 08-07-11 at 11:42.

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    Haplogroups don't tell so much about ethnicity. Must be considerated, but only Autosomoal DNA revels the full genetic History. And I think that Kurds have more Near Eastern (West and Southwest Asian) than European in their genome. We can take Kurds as Caucasoids, but not esentially Europeans.

    By the way, 6.5% of T is quite high. There are a few European regions scoring higher or more or less the same. Any European country in general terms will get a report like this.

    Haplogroup T is more related to the Near East and some African Populations. It is believed to originate around the red sea (probably Ethiopia). You can check the information in this forum. I think there are also several parts in India where its presence looks significant, but I'm not sure.

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    Interesting hmmm

    but isn't that map also the Ak koyonlu areas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Haplogroups don't tell so much about ethnicity. Must be considerated, but only Autosomoal DNA revels the full genetic History. And I think that Kurds have more Near Eastern (West and Southwest Asian) than European in their genome. We can take Kurds as Caucasoids, but not esentially Europeans.

    By the way, 6.5% of T is quite high. There are a few European regions scoring higher or more or less the same. Any European country in general terms will get a report like this.

    Haplogroup T is more related to the Near East and some African Populations. It is believed to originate around the red sea (probably Ethiopia). You can check the information in this forum. I think there are also several parts in India where its presence looks significant, but I'm not sure.
    no its clear ..all tests shows it.. kurds are european people like spaniish/greek/italian people ,apparently more european than these .. so we cant forget that a lot of kurds were assimilated by turkish ottomans , persian and arab people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    Interesting hmmm

    but isn't that map also the Ak koyonlu areas
    ak koyunlu ?

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    I think it's apparent that Kurds have a strong European component to their genetic makeup, and are quite distinctive in their region, see Dodecad. But it's also apparent that they aren't purely European, in any sense... their autosomal clustering (often close-ish to Iranians) and their haplogroup makeup (including so much T, G, J2... and so little R1b) indicate a significant Near Eastern component as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by KurdishAryan View Post
    and Religion of Kurds: Christianity, Judaism,Islam,Yezidi,Alevi. and a lot of kurds were assimilated by turkish ottomans..
    Why list Islam third? It's obvious that Kurds are very dominantly Muslim.

    Quote Originally Posted by KurdishAryan View Post
    Kurdia/Kurdistan ´s "unofficial" map ,"official " settlement area . :



    now official Kurdia/Kurdistan autonomous republic in Northkurdistan :
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan
    The peoples in a lot of regions covered by that map will object to being part of Kurdistan. That's more like a map of "places where any significant amount of Kurds live."

    Quote Originally Posted by KurdishAryan View Post
    Kurdish PeoPle : Studies show that Kurds have a stronger european genetic make-up then Greeks,Southern italians and Spanish people.
    Cite sources? It seems that the definition of "European" could be wrong if a people living in Asia are deemed more European than Europeans!

    Quote Originally Posted by KurdishAryan View Post
    Y-DNA Haplogroups in North Kurdistan :
    I -25%
    R1a -19.5%
    R1b -8%
    G -12.5%
    J2 - 7%
    J1 -0%
    E -2.5%
    T- 6.5%
    Not to dispute, but to clarify: The Haplogroup I among Kurdish people is interesting, in that it tends to be not of the type that we find among Armenians (I2*-B) but of the younger type that we find among Slavs (I2a-Din), indicating that Kurds are not only of largely European stock, but that the transmission occurred recently.

    Quote Originally Posted by KurdishAryan View Post
    and see here ALL EUROPEAN MINORITIES including kurdish PeoPle :

    http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp
    I think they include Kurds because they are an important minority in Turkey, part of which is in Europe, not because they are making a statement about how "European" Kurds are. I mean, they also include Arabs, apparently because there are Arabs in Turkey, as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by KurdishAryan View Post
    and see here kurdish aryan European race .. kurdish PeoPle (video) . :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmC2uWESEM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hHMwCE3ECU
    I didn't watch the videos... but I will say that "Aryans" include Persians and Hindi speakers... not very European, is it? It's more Eurasian.
    Quote Originally Posted by KurdishAryan View Post
    Kurdia/Kurdistan and EUROPE :
    On the map it's in ASIA. Not that I don't think that Kurds should be able to get greater autonomy and independence for their region, if they so desire. There are plenty of countries (in Europe, Asia, and elsewhere) that should exist, but don't... Kurdistan is a possibility.

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    I'm afraid you are wrong. Dodecad (Dienekes') shows a completely different story.

    First of all, a population portrait of the Kurds to make it easy, based on the latest analysis: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPo...%2BKurd_12.png

    And second, the averages of populations, where you can compare and see that Spaniards, Italians, Greeks, etc., have a lot more European genes than the Kurds: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...COCa89AJ#gid=0

    If you just look at the Greek average, only the Mediterranean component goes at 46%, much more European than any Kurd, and if you look Spaniards the difference is higher.

    Kurds are Caucasoids, but not the same as Europeans just because some of them look like with light traits. Haplogroups only tell information about a first ancestor who lived thousands of years ago, the complete information is only posible to get in Autosomal analysis, and it's clear that Kurds have very significant Middle Eastern imput, and little from other non European places too. European component is less than 40% in Kurds. Also Haplogroup T, as I said, is easy to be asociated with Africa, Middle East and probably India.

    Thats what science says. Some of them really have European look, but does not necesarly mean they are the same. Of course Caucasoid populations (Europeans, Western Asians and North Africans) are related, but it's good to tell things exactly as they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KurdishAryan View Post
    ak koyunlu ?
    sory
    Aq qoyunlu
    kara koyonlu
    the turkmen and azeris,
    also the armenia,
    so kurds Armenians azeris-turkmen share the same area, also some already state populations like turks syrians

    I know that kurds have IE language an old Iranian which fits in their location today,

    I wonder what makes you believe that Kurds are more Europeans from Greeks or south Italians or some others
    according what basis you make that claim?

    I mean you believe kurds moved from Europe to that area?
    what makes you to coonect them with europe? what you observed?

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    And yet another battle about which is the most or least European population...

    Guys, don't you get tired of this?

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    Could be a problem of knowledge, not necesarily a battle. I personally find Kurds and other Asian Caucasoids very interesting. It's incredible how similar to Europeans they usually look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Could be a problem of knowledge, not necesarily a battle. I personally find Kurds and other Asian Caucasoids very interesting. It's incredible how similar to Europeans they usually look.
    correct
    in fact if you watch some levantines, Georgians Greeks Italians Kurds you see many common like nose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    And yet another battle about which is the most or least European population...

    Guys, don't you get tired of this?
    it is not a battle, it is statement, simply to accept it someone must learn on what it is based.

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    Some Kurds really resemble Georgians, it's easy to explain due to their high West Asian component (Georgians have more or less 75%, while Kurds are made basically of this, but not at the same level). I think Jordanians would be quite close to them too, phisically and genetically speaking.

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    the interestin in Dodecad is the green the mediterennean connection.

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    It's the largest European component they have. It's also interesting to note that the East European component is higher in Kurds than for example English or Spaniards. There is a Slavic influence so, wich is present in Greeks too at higher level.

    An obvious connection is not deniable.
    Last edited by Knovas; 07-07-11 at 20:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Not to dispute, but to clarify: The Haplogroup I among Kurdish people is interesting, in that it tends to be not of the type that we find among Armenians (I2*-B) but of the younger type that we find among Slavs (I2a-Din), indicating that Kurds are not only of largely European stock, but that the transmission occurred recently.
    my proposal is that this I2a-Din can be related to conquest of sea peoples from north countries towards south... among sea peoples were Sherdana after whom Serbonian bog is named....
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...76-sea-peoples

    I think this I2a-Din went under names such as Sherdana, Scordisci, Cimmerians (Gomer)...

    e.g. if we combine map of Gomer (there is consensus that Gomer = Cimmerians) from ancient Hebrew world (both the island in Cappadocia and areas north of Black sea) with map of archeological sites related to Thraco-Cimmerians we get I2a2 map...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhet


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians



    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...ogroup-I2a-map


    now, Gomer/Cimmerians settled in Cappadocia but in Strabo's time both of Cappadocian tribes are called white-Syrians

    The country of the Assyrians borders on Persis and Susiana. This name1 is given to Babylonia and to much of the country all round, which latter, in part, is also called Aturia, in which are Ninus, Apolloniatis, the Elymaei, the Paraetacae, the Chalonitis in the neighbourhood of Mt. Zagrus, the plains in the neighbourhood of Ninus, and also Dolomenê and Calachenê and Chazenê and Adiabenê, and the tribes of Mesopotamia in the neighbourhood of the Gordyaeans, and the Mygdonians in the neighbourhood of Nisibis, as far as the Zeugma2 of the Euphrates, as also much of the country on the far side of the Euphrates, which is occupied by Arabians, and those people who in a special sense of the term are called by the men of to‑day Syrians, who extend as far as the Cilicians and the Phoenicians and the Judaeans and the sea that is opposite the Aegyptian Sea and the Gulf of Issus.

    2 It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine. At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians,"3 as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus. When those who have written histories of the Syrian empire say that the Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus; and, of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus in Aturia, and his wife, Semiramis, was the woman who succeeded her husband and founded Babylon. These two gained the mastery of Asia; and as for Semiramis, apart from her works at Babylon, many others are also to be seen throughout almost the whole of that continent, I mean the mounds called the Mounds of Semiramis, and walls, and the construction of fortifications with aqueducts therein, and of reservoirs for drinking-water, and of ladder-like ascents of mountains, and of channels in rivers and lakes, and of roads and bridges. And they left to their successors their empire until the time of the empires of Sardanapalus and Arbaces. But later the empire passed over to the Medes.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/16A*.html

    clearly, if "Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus" this is clear indication that Syrians = Sumerians

    in Cappadocia from Gomer (Cimmerians) we get white-Syrians, who are by interpreting strabo's note = Sumerians...

    well, clearly Cimmerians is same tribal name as Sumerians, just written n languages with different phonetic rules......

    but story of white-Syrians goes further.... e.g. if we look at this map of haplogroup I (that is based on prior research and should be updated with somewhat higher frequencies of haplogroup I in Kurdistan and lower in sampling point forTeheran area)



    we can see that spread of haplogroup I in east Asia maps exactly to Serians/Serres and land of Serica..

    Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica

    now area in northwest china plus arc from China to India is perfectly clear in haplogroup I spread....

    a part of this arc in fact matches Pasthun Sarbans perfectly (e.g. pay attention on place where both spread make turn of the arc from NW-SE to SW-NE)



    modern Serbs (dominantly I2a-din), came to Balkan from land of Boika where they were called white => so we have "white Serbs" as well..

    http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false

    that Boika land that by description - north of Turkia (Turkia is named that was used for nowdays Hungary due to Avar and Hun states) and neighbouring Frankia and white Croatia (roughly Slovakia, south Poland, west Ukraine) can only be Bohemia or land of Boii (hence Boika)

    this is supported by increased I2a2 frequencies in southwest Bohemia (2-3 times more than the rest of Czech republic..e.g 14.6% in Klatovy and 9.2% in Pisek compared to around 4% in towns more east and north...see http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...20500/abstract )

    it is also supported by placenames such as Sorviodurum (Straubing) in east Bavaria, and Srby, Srby and Serby in southwest Bohemia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(D...lice_District)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(P...outh_District)

    the historic source goes further it also states that Boika is the land where they did originally dwell... now Bohemia-Bavaria (both Bohemia and Bavaria were named after Boii) makes lot of sense for origin or early settlement place of I2, as I2b we find mostly north of it, I2a2 mostly east of it, and I2a1 south and southwest of it...


    now, back to Serica, Serres and Serians.... white Serians from northern part of arc also still exist as well..

    Sart is a name for the settled inhabitants of Central Asia which has had shifting meanings over the centuries. Sarts, known sometimes as Ak-Sart ("White Sart") in ancient times, did not have any particular ethnic identification, and were usually (though not always) town-dwellers.
    ...
    13-th century Mongolian source, "Secret History of the Mongols" states that the Mongols called people from Central Asia, most notably Khwarezm, as "Sartuul". "Sar" in Mongolian means "moon", hence sart or sarta would mean "ones with (flag with) moon", since the Muslim people had Hilal symbol on their flags. One of the Mongolian tribes living in the Zavkhan province are descendants of merchants from Khwarezm, who resided in Harhorin. This tribe, still, is called Sartuul.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

    worth noting is that in Slavic languages word "srp" = sickle, crescent... this is one possible origin of tribal name Srbi... serb coat of arms has 4 "srp" elements...


    The modern Uzbek people are believed to have both Iranian and Turkic ancestry. "Uzbek" and "Tajik" are modern designations given to the culturally homogeneous, sedentary population of Central Asia. The local ancestors of both groups - the Turkic-speaking Uzbeks and the Iranian-speaking Tajiks - were known as "Sarts" ("sedentary merchants") prior to the Russian conquest of Central Asia, while "Uzbek" or "Turk" were the names given to the nomadic and semi-nomadic populations of the area. Still today, modern Uzbeks and Tajiks are known as "Sarts" to their Turkic neighbours, the Kazakhs and the Kyrgyz.
    white Serians of Asia are thus incorporated in Uzbeks and Tajiks as well...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples

    Serica proper was in northwest China

    Interestingly, the Muslim, Mongol-speaking Dongxiang people of Northwestern China call themselves Sarta or Santa. It is not clear if there is any connection between this term and the Sarts of Central Asia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart


    The Dongxiang are closely related to the Mongolians. Scholars speculate that their identity as an independent ethnic group arose through contact with Central Asians, due to whom the Dongxiang converted to Sunni Islam in the 13th century.
    ...
    Their autonym, sarta, may also provide a contradictory clue to their origin: a similar word Sart was formerly used in Central Asia to refer to Arab traders[citation needed], later to the local (mostly) Turkic-speaking city dwellers.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongxiang_people

    those Sart people from Dongxiang Chinese province look like this


    the Uzbek and Tajik white Sarts look like this


    now, let us not forget Serians mentioned by Seneca as living in both Asia and Europe....

    [369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.

    27. i.e. the frozen surface.
    28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.
    Seneca - Thyestes
    http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

    thus, we have Serians who live in both Europe and Asia but are clearly not Scythians
    (as in europe they rule over scattered Scythians), nor Sarmatians (as in Caspian highlands they live unguarded from Sarmatians). Only historic tribe in both Asia and Europe that are not Sarmatians or Scythians are Cimmerians...

    Seneca's Serians in Caspian highlands map to Serboi /Serbi recorded to live there by Pliny the elder


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians


    in my opinion I2a2 in Kurds came from north from around Black sea areas with Sherdana sea peoples...


    in the end, some parallels between Serbs and Kurds

    Kurdish dance is a group of traditional hand-holding dances similar to those from the Balkans, Lebanon, and to Iraq. It is a form of round dancing, with a single or a couple of figure dancers often added to the geometrical centre of dancing circle.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_culture

    this is same as circle dance with holding hands that is typical for Serbs and Slavs
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolo_(dance)

    Catalan version of the dance is called Sardana...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana

    in Turkish language words for wolf are Kurt and Zampara
    (from google translate)

    similarity of words Kurd/Kurt indicates that Turkish word Kurt might have come to existenc due to Kurds being related to wolf
    wolf is (besides eagle) an animal which is related to Serbs...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_Serbia

    the tribal name Kurd may have been same as Sherdana and Scordisci
    note that "Sh" in sherdana and "Sc" in Scordisci were likely both pronounced as š which is sound between "s" and"k" something like in english "shine", "show"...

    e.g. Šar planina (Šar mountain) mountain in east Kosovo and west Macedonia is in Greece named Scordus mountain and is named after Scordisci

    but if we compare Sherdana with non-Greek names for Scordus mountain, it is clear that Scordisci is Greek exonym of Celtic version of tribal name Shardana....

    Scordus in Greek
    Šar planina (Šar mountain) in south Slavic
    Shar Dagh in Ottoman Turkish
    Malet e Sharrit in Albanian
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ar_Mountains

    in fact isn't turkish or Asia minor word Shar Dagh almost the same as Shardana?

    in fact, those may have been original Celtic people...


    Josephus placed Gomer and the "Gomerites" in Anatolian Galatia: "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, but were then called Gomerites."[3] Galatia in fact takes its name from the ancient Gauls (Celts) who settled there. However, the later Christian writer Hippolytus of Rome in c. 234 assigned Gomer as the ancestor of the Cappadocians, neighbours of the Galatians.[4] Jerome (c. 390) and Isidore of Seville (c. 600) followed Josephus' identification of Gomer with the Galatians, Gauls and Celts.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer


    note also that Seneca speaks of Serians (I2a-Din from above) rule over Scythians (R1a from ancient DNA) hence Slavic people as mix of R1a and I2a-Din...

    Bavarian geographer writes that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it.... aren't Zeruiani clearly the same as Seneca's Serians (also known as Serres)...aren't they likely same people as Cimmerians / white Syrians? and what about white Syrians / white Serbs / white Sarts / Sarbans / Kurds?
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 07-07-11 at 21:28. Reason: brackets on the end of links issues

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    How yes no, have you seen Nordtvedt's latest Haplogroup I conjectured spread map? I am thinking about the spread of Haplogroup I along the same lines, whereby all of its major branching occurred in Europe, but leaving open recent migrations East, notably of I2*-B (dotted green line on Nordtvedt's map) and I2a-Din (eastern dotted red lines on Nordtvedt's map). Note that he allows migrations of I2a-Din to the north of the Black Sea given current evidence, probably geographically parallel but temporally separate to the I2*-B that ended up in Armenians.

    See Nordtvedt's homepage and look for "Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf".

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    lol you guys posted so much .. :)

    and i say only; kurdish dna s are lile spanish greek and itally dna s ..and do you think that all europeans have blond hair and blue eyes.. thats lol see portugal..see spain see italy seegreece all that are like kurds... so kurds have same dna s like these.. and kurds are old european and see thee map this is true europe , and dont be worry because of islam ,kurds have not only islam religion lol so you can accept kurds as european .i know because of islam you europeasn cant accept turkey ,too : )) if there would stay an christ. state you would accept it in the eu ,so quickly..

    see a short video ..kurdish europeans.. :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kn6u..._order&list=UL

    and this map is map from europe ,,and there you cant see iraq iran or syria.. here: http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg and see euro. people incl. kurds http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp and thats shows all.. and thsdi website created by true europeans.. and we cant forget that a lot of kurds were assimilated by arabs turks and persian .

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    ALBANIA IS A MUSLIM COUNTRY,
    why EU is about to accept Albania and to turkey?

    so the case turkey is out cause its muslim is not based,

    in India also have blond people and in Persia and afgan,
    why you connect the blond of curds with only Europeans?

    just asking.

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    You can't ignore what admixture analysis say. Phisycal appearence does not definetly prove nothing, because light features are not only in mainland Europe, it's easy to see them in other Caucasoids due to ancient admixture. Kurds have European blood, however their major component is West Asian and Southwest Asian, wich are NOT European Caucasoids, but clearly similar to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KurdishAryan View Post
    lol you guys posted so much .. :)
    If it's too much to read, the consensus we seem to be building is that Kurds are a Near Eastern Indo-European ethnic group with a significant European component (at least more than their neighbors) that's worth investigating. I don't think anybody is agreeing with the statement that "Kurds are Europeans," though... more like they've just got an unusually large number of European ancestors for their region.

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    It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine. At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians,"3 as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/16A*.html

    there are Syrians and white Syrians..where does distinction come from?

    while white Syrians I related to I2a-din and Cimmerians/Gomer, question is who were other Syrians genetically... J2? E-V13?

    Gomer is ancestor of all germanian people... among them are also tribes such as Goths, Hatti.. perhaps Getae were also Germanic....

    now, look at this

    The Gutian dynasty came to power in Mesopotamia around 2150 BC (short chronology), by destabilising Akkad, according to the Sumerian kinglist at the end of the reign of king Ur-Utu (or Lugal-melem) of Uruk. They reigned for perhaps around one century (copies of the kinglist vary between 25 and 124 years; 91 years is often quoted as probable). The dynasty was succeeded by the 3rd dynasty of Ur.
    The Gutian people (Guti) were native to Gutium, presumably in the central Zagros Mountains; almost nothing is known about their origins.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_dynasty_of_Sumer

    so, Gutians from Zagros mountains were ruling over Sumer for 100 years or more...
    Guti = Goti... = perhaps Hatti that were in Asia minor before Hittite...

    pay attention to this

    in north mythology Hati = giant wolf
    in turkish language Kurt = wolf

    interestingly, Hati Hróðvitnisson it is the wolf that chases the moon...
    In Norse mythology, Hati Hróðvitnisson (first name meaning "He Who Hates, Enemy"[1]) is a wolf that according to Gylfaginning chases the Moon across the night sky, just as the wolf Sköll chases the Sun during the day, until the time of Ragnarök when they will swallow these heavenly bodies, after which Fenrir will break free from his bonds and kill Odin.
    Hati's surname is Hróðvitnisson, attested in both Grímnismál and Gylfaginning, which indicates that he is the son of Fenrir, whose alternate name is Hróðvitnir ("Famous Wolf").
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hati_Hr...C3%B0vitnisson

    note that possible origin of tribal name of serbs is moon as in Slavic "srp" (= crescent, sickle) and in mongolian sar (moon, crescent)

    east Germanic Hiri are known to be spooky night warriors...
    they are coupled with Scirii, Sciri, Scirians, Skirii, Skiri or Skirians
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirii
    whose tribal name Scirians is just coruption of Serians... same as Sclaveni for Sloveni... or Scordisci for celtic version of Serdi

    seri and hurri are paired bulls that represent day and night in Asia minor mythology... again pair, and hurri related to dark, and seri to light though daylight and not moonlight...

    seri is also name that comes from serians/sumerians... while hurri might be related to Hurrians
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians

    The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)


    back to Gutians ruling over Sumer
    100 years of ruling a state is enough to begin identifying with its name...
    thus Gutians who rulled over Sumer became white-Syrians and Cimmerians (=Sumerians)..they came from north so they probably had somewhat lighter complexion than original Sumerians / Syrians... hence white-Syrians..

    so, I wouldnot exclude Goths being I2a-din as well.... perhaps a branch that didnot become white Syrians. kept name Guti..

    in fact, tribal names are sometimes wrongly transcribed in non native languages....
    let's play with word Guti....
    in slavic similar word is ljuti = angry ones
    (angry ones would be easily origin for tribal name e.g. Lutici are Polabian Slav tribe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutici, but it is not really as close to 'guti')
    alternative would be ljudi (people) which is to my ear much more alike to Gothic Thiuda than Germanic Deutch is...

    according to disputed medieval source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic...iest_of_Duklja) south Slavs are Goths...

    but Scordisci are Celtic people... Serdi are Celtic people from area of Scordisci who became Thracians..
    Serdi may be explanation for I2a-din on west coast of Asia minor that was never settled by Slavs...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

    ancient Rome historians did speculate that name Germans was used to identify original Celts...
    but could original Celts have been Cimmerians as claimed by Josephus? Celts called themselves Keltoi, which could be a version of Guti...could be same tribal name as Guti and even same as Anatolian Hatti (whose primary god has name Taru similar to Germanic Thor, while later Hittite have same god as Tarhun, which is alike to slavic Perun, celtic taranis, and Baltic Perkunas..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

    note that Celts are mentioned also as living in Africa, and there is no native European R1b in Africa, but there is native I2a1...

    138 Few nations have wandered so far and wide as the Galatæ. We meet with them in Europe, Asia, and Africa, under the various names of Galatæ Galatians, Gauls, and Kelts. Galatia, in Asia Minor, was settled by one of these hordes.
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...hlight=galatia

    this also shows Galatae gives names Kelts and Gauls..why not both Galatae and Goti being names derived from older Guti?

    Celts in Africa are in my opinion I2a1 and went under name Garamantes
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garamantes

    Garamantes were advanced civilization that had irrigation systems that made Sahara bloom...their capital Germa (name to the town seems to have been given by archeologist recently to mark capital of Garamantes) is near modern town Sebha...

    alternative name for Celts is Gali... this is area of Galicia in east Europe



    that is core of I2a2 in Ukraine area...


    and that is also the area of white-Croatia, while white-Serbia is west of it in land Boika, which is, as explained above, Bohemia where another hotspot of I2a2 is.......

    so Slavic I2a-Din we may map to white-Croats, white-Serbs and perhaps Goths...
    white in white-Croats and white-Serbs was translated to white = west (ancient color system) ...
    was white-Syrians the same? or was white-Serbs and white-Croats remain of old white-Syrian/white-Sart


    Bavarian manuscript speaks of state of Zeruiani was so big (and above we could see how big is state of Serians) that all Slavs come form it.....

    big state of Zeruiani - is it about syrians or white Syrians? if it was white-Syrians this may have been about state of Goths or Sarmatians (though Seneca is clear that in Caspian highlands Serians live among Sarmatians which implies not being one of them) ... if it is about Syrians, than this could be about hellenic empire....

    Zorya = Slavic triple goddess - representing 3 stars: morning, evening and night..
    her name means "dawn" and morning star is maped to northern star Zvezda(star) Danica... (dan = day)... if we would try to map zeruiani to Hellenic people, tribal name derived from zorya (as in Zeruiani) would by name of her most important morning star form map to Danaans (acheans - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaans) well...

    so Syrians might have been I think J2 with e-V13 and white-Syrians I2a
    this is consistent with haplogroup I not really widely present in Sumer only north of it among Kurds..
    curiously, Siraces who lived on north shores of Black sea and are thought to be same or related to Serboi, are most hellenized of all Sarmatians..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces

    Zorya lives together with sun, east, north and west wind...sun is symbol of ancient Macedonians...in Greek mythology winds are Anemoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi , same gods are Venti in latin) and I map them to Slavic tribes: west wind Zephyrus (born in caves of thrace_ to Serbs, east wind Eurus to Russians, north wind Borea to Prussians/Borussians, and son of Zephyrus is Carpus whom I map to Croats).. so Zorya/Danica/Danaans living together with sun (ancient Macedonians) and north, west and east wind ( = Veneti/Thracian proto-Slavs) would be about Helenic empire... in fact, those Veneti/Venti tribes might have been not really Slavic originally but something in between germanic, celtic and slavic speaking, while R1a spoke Balto-Slavic.....maybe they were east germanic tribes that are also west slavic...perhaps Scirri, Hiri that are known to have been related to Venedi...


    are Kurdish Sorani related to Serians or white Serians?


    I think Serians as they have more J2 and less I2a than northern Kurds who would be related to white Serians / Cimmerians same as Serbs...thus Sorani would be more like Danaans/Acheans...

    so north Kurds would be closer to Serbs, south Kurds to Greeks...
    and of course there is some Scythian / (proto-slavic?) R1a in both...
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 08-07-11 at 01:00.

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    I also believe that there is European and mediterranean blood in Kurds,

    but can you prove it?

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    See Dodecad portraits up, I think it's obvious.

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    kurds ,kurdish people are european .

    See dna tests kurds have not asian dna tests but dna s like greek/italian/sPanish people ,thats fact . im north kurd so kurd from northkurdistan ("turkish kurdistan" ) and see dna tests here:
    see kurdish europeans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kn6u..._order&list=UL

    2- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmC2uWESEM
    See (turkish kurdistan)

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

    and why you think why these europeans placed kurdistan to europe ? if kurds would be not europeans then they would not put kurdistan to europe map and to european MINORITIES see : http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp
    why these european website have not put iraq or iran to europe ? .. because they are not european, this is true europe if yo ucan accept or not , so now forget religions in this are.. thsi is true europe :

    http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg
    Last edited by KurdishAryan; 08-07-11 at 17:18.

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    You are confusing concepts. Y-DNA (and mtDNA too), is only a marker wich tells the origin of an individual going thousands of years ago, but it's imposible to know with it the REAL admixture of a person. So most Kurds show Indo-European origin, but admixture analysis show that all of them mixed with other similar populations, the mentioned Asian Caucasoids. This populations are closer to Europeans than Asians, but are not the same. So it's not rare to see Kurds and other Near Easterns with European look, but this is not a prove for what you say and, of course Y-DNA and mtDNA, isn't too as I explained.

    And haplogroup T is quite apreciable in Kurds, and very linked with the Near/Middle East and Africa. There are regions in Europe with higher or more or less the same presence of this haplogroup, but are only this: regions. In all Europe haplogroup T represents just 1% according to Eupidia, you can check it in the haplogroup description.

    Geographically speaking, perhaps is posible to discuss if Kurds are European or not, but genetically speaking, Kurds are Near Easterns with substantial European ancestry, quite low compared with mainland Europeans. That's what autosomal analysis tell, there is nothing to discuss here.

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