Did you know that Kurds(Kurdish PeoPle) are Europeans?

The map you post of haplogroup T is wrong. Wikipedia (where the map comes from) is not reliable talking about genetics. Also reading the explanation they give it's easy to see some contradictions. Frequencies showed here in Eupidia are better, just think that more than 20% of haplogroup T around Central Europe is absurd...there is a lot of contrast comparing with Eupidia, I don't give any credit to wikipedia in this concrete issue.
Since the last time I checked Arabs (Semitic by language) don't have that much haplogroup T. Most Arabs belong to J and E!
 
I'm out, haplogroup I in Kurds is a West Asian component.
 
I don't know what you mean. Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) originated in Europe. If you talk about haplogroup I (mtDNA), the thing perhaps goes different.
 
I don't know what you mean. Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) originated in Europe. If you talk about haplogroup I (mtDNA), the thing perhaps goes different.

You don't believe in Y-DNA:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...t-hair-and-eyes-in-Europe&p=375011#post375011

then why do you participate in this forum?

Wait, I understand it yet, in the case of haplogroup E-M81 (present in Spain and from berber origin) does not mean anything, but when it comes to other haplogroups you are very interested. It's funny.
 
What are you saying t.r.o.l.l.? I'm not denying any haplogroup origin. According to Eupidia haplogroup I (Y-DNA), originated in Europe, not in West Asia. Considering that haplogroup I (mtDNA) probably originated in the Caucasus, it makes more sense

What is your objection? don't you see you are ridiculous proving your silly agenda? XD
 
I don't know what you mean. Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) originated in Europe. If you talk about haplogroup I (mtDNA), the thing perhaps goes different.
Haplogroup I in Kurds is an Asian marker. It is in Asia, isn't it? And it has been in Asia for thousands of years. So it's Asian! Like some subclades in Ossetians, some other folks of Caucasus and some West Persians.
 
Well, we should see if their subclades really originated in Asia or not, I really ignore this since never heard or read about it. Can you provide more information about the subclades?
 
Haplogroup I in Kurds is an Asian marker. It is in Asia, isn't it? And it has been in Asia for thousands of years. So it's Asian! Like some subclades in Ossetians, some other folks of Caucasus and some West Persians.

"Thousands" = maybe 3000. I suppose that's made it old enough to have certain sub-sub-clades becoming "Asian," but we have yet to find an Asian-origin Haplogroup I SNP as far as I know. Still, I think most here would say that European R1b is "Asian-origin," so it's probably fairer to call Asian I "European-origin."
 
Well, we should see if their subclades really originated in Asia or not, I really ignore this since never heard or read about it. Can you provide more information about the subclades?
There is absolutely NO proof that the archaic haplogroup I (M170) is from Europe. Many West Asians have that marker. Many scientists think it is from West Asia splited from West Asian IJ. But these are all theories…
 
I must recognize it's not imposible, but I see it more difficult to proof since the most part of haplogroup I it's found in mainland Europe.
 
Accrording to the Croatian scientists:

http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm

croatianscientists.jpg


http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm

Croatian scientists.jpg
 
There is absolutely NO proof that the archaic haplogroup I (M170) is from Europe. Many West Asians have that marker. Many scientists think it is from West Asia splited from West Asian IJ. But these are all theories…

Be careful with those spaniards. They always deny the possibility of a Haplogroup come from outside Europe. Fortunately, not all Spanish are so.
 
Be careful with those spaniards. They always deny the possibility of a Haplogroup come from outside Europe. Fortunately, not all Spanish are so.
Ok, but I'm here not to talk cheap or trash talk about somebody or some individuals.
 
Listen cockatoo, here we have a civilized discussion, and everybody understands how the thing was going before your noisy intervention.

Get date for the psychiatrist.
 
Accrording to the Croatian scientists:

http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm

It is entirely possible that the SNP M170 originated in Asia and then went extinct there, or it could have originated in Europe from IJ Cro-Magnon descendants (with the IJ going extinct in Europe). In fact, Haplogroup I bottlenecked significantly enough, and has been found in so few ancient DNA samples, that it's hard to tell much of anything about its earliest history.

I will say that there's little doubt that IJ originated in Asia... the only other possibility I can even think of is North Africa, and that seems less likely to me.

Be careful with those spaniards. They always deny the possibility of a Haplogroup come from outside Europe. Fortunately, not all Spanish are so.

Knovas hasn't said anything wrong here. The center of diversity of Haplogroup I is in Europe. It's been in Europe for quite some time.
 
The center of diversity of Haplogroup I is in Europe. It's been in Europe for quite some time.
Maybe because European haplogroup I* had time and space to evolve further. West Asian haplogroup I* had not much time to develop further because it competed with other haplogroups?

Maybe R1b folks migrated much earlier into West Asia than into West Europe. Haplogroup I also competed with Caucasian haplogroups like G and J2. And haplogroup I in Europe had NO competition...
 
Maybe because European haplogorup I* had time and space to evolve further. West Asian haplogorup I* had not much time to develop further because it competed with other haplogroups?

What do you mean? SNPs develop independently of "space." I mean, a given line of Haplogroup I won't care if a bunch of Haplogroup J is nearby... all genetic drift does is to alter a distribution within a population, not along a certain line.

If I* originated in Asia, its lines that remained entirely in Asia are unobserved in both modern and ancient DNA. The "I*" we see in studies have so far just meant that not enough SNPs were tested, according to Ken Nordtvedt. We haven't found IJ yet, either.
 
you mixed things up. Kurds are Indo-Europeans a linguistic family different from being "European" in cultural, historic and geographic meaning. God people like you are embarrassing. Before starting such nonsense topics go educate yourself.

Can you speak kurdish? Ti kurdi zana? Tu Kurdi Zane?
 
Haplogroups don't tell so much about ethnicity. Must be considerated, but only Autosomoal DNA revels the full genetic History. And I think that Kurds have more Near Eastern (West and Southwest Asian) than European in their genome. We can take Kurds as Caucasoids, but not esentially Europeans.

By the way, 6.5% of T is quite high. There are a few European regions scoring higher or more or less the same. Any European country in general terms will get a report like this.

Haplogroup T is more related to the Near East and some African Populations. It is believed to originate around the red sea (probably Ethiopia). You can check the information in this forum. I think there are also several parts in India where its presence looks significant, but I'm not sure.

Very right. But just to correct. Kurds are mainly of the "West Asian" component while the "South Westasian" is only a minor element. The "Mediterranean" Element (20-30%) is even higher among them.


I'm afraid you are wrong. Dodecad (Dienekes') shows a completely different story.

First of all, a population portrait of the Kurds to make it easy, based on the latest analysis: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPoc/Tg32AhSZ3TI/AAAAAAAAAk0/EpWVqfBVc1A/s1600/ADMIXTURE%2BKurd_12.png

And second, the averages of populations, where you can compare and see that Spaniards, Italians, Greeks, etc., have a lot more European genes than the Kurds: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...owN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

If you just look at the Greek average, only the Mediterranean component goes at 46%, much more European than any Kurd, and if you look Spaniards the difference is higher.

Kurds are Caucasoids, but not the same as Europeans just because some of them look like with light traits. Haplogroups only tell information about a first ancestor who lived thousands of years ago, the complete information is only posible to get in Autosomal analysis, and it's clear that Kurds have very significant Middle Eastern imput, and little from other non European places too. European component is less than 40% in Kurds. Also Haplogroup T, as I said, is easy to be asociated with Africa, Middle East and probably India.

Thats what science says. Some of them really have European look, but does not necesarly mean they are the same. Of course Caucasoid populations (Europeans, Western Asians and North Africans) are related, but it's good to tell things exactly as they are.


I agree totally with what you wrote however I have to fix somethings here too. When we download all the admixture maps uploaded by Dienekes, we see that he used the Xing et al. Kurds.

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/structure-in-west-asian-indo-european.html

If we look at the study of Xing et al , we see this

To study the relationship between the various West Asian Indo-European groups, I gathered an Iranian sample (from Behar et al.), an Iraqi Kurdish one (from Xing et al.),

What I am trying to say is that we shouldnt take dienekes admixture of Kurds as representative and we probably would get some small but still obvious differences if a group of Turkish Kurds would have been used.

We also see noticeable differences between Anatolian and Iraqi kurdish yDNA. The Former having more I2a*,G and less J2, J1, and R1b. the autosomal dna wil also have differences I assume.


however it is clear that the Kurds are mainly West Asia, having Mediterranean as second strongest element and followed as minor Elements by South Westasian, West/East European and South Asian at least among Iraqi Kurds.
 

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