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Thread: If R1b comes from the east why it didn't bring I2a2 with it?

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    Elite member spongetaro's Avatar
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    If R1b comes from the east why it didn't bring I2a2 with it?

    On the haplogroup migration map of Maciamo, R1b1b2 is supposed to have originated in the Caucasus/ Anatolia then to have cross the Balkans to settle in Western Europe.
    That migration may have taken thousands of year, a time that suppose mixing with the local I2a2 Balkanic people. So why R1b1b2 didn't bring I2a2 to western Europe ?

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    good question

    Maybe its because the I2a2 was brought in the balkans by the goths , who stayed there for over 200 years.

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    Simple. R1b comes from the region between the Caucasus/North-East Anatolia and the Pontic steppes east of the Dnieper. I2a2 was located further west, between the Adriatic and the Dnieper. R1b moved pretty fast through the Danube basin to settle around the Alps, then across western Europe, because the Balkans and Carpathians were already heavily populated by the Neolithic cultures of Old Europe (especially the Cucuteni-Tripolye, which had the most populous towns in the world at the time, exceeding the early Mesopotamian cities of Ur and Uruk in size). At the time of the great Indo-European migrations, R1b people didn't mix with the people they encountered in the Danube basin. It is only later, when R1a people from further east and north (Volga-Ural region) moved into the vacuum left by the R1b Indo-Europeans around modern Ukraine, Belarus and south-west Russia that R1a people started mixing with the indigenous I2a2 people, and became the Slavs.

    It's easier to visualise all this on the migration maps I created. Just one error I need to fix on the first map: the Pontic-Caspian Neolithic was probably composed I2a2 and E1b1b lineages, not R1a as indicated. That is why I2a2 and E1b1b peak as far to the north-east as Belarus today. Some R1a people might have lived side-by-side in the same region at the same time, but as foragers (hunter-gatherers) not farmers.

    Another thing to correct in the 5th map: the Greco-Macedonians and Thracians were probably not R1a but R1b, and didn't descend directly from the Trzciniec culture but from the R1b already established in the Balkans (Cernavoda, Ezero, etc.). The R1a in the Balkans came much later with the Scythians, Sarmatians, Slavs, Bulgars, and so on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    At the time of the great Indo-European migrations, R1b people didn't mix with the people they encountered in the Danube basin. .
    And what about Antolia ? they didn't mix with J2 populations too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    And what about Antolia ? they didn't mix with J2 populations too?
    R1b was already in Anatolia before the Indo-European migrations (namely the older subclades of R1b1b, upstream of R1b1b2a1). Some branches migrated back and obviously mixed with the natives over time since they settled there permanently. What I meant about the Danube basin is that for most Indo-Europeans from the steppes only passed briefly through the region and pushed forward to less densely inhabited regions. Some obviously stayed behind, but only a minority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    R1b was already in Anatolia before the Indo-European migrations.
    That is my point. R1b stayed thousands of year in Anatolia among a majority of J2 populations. So if R1b really originated there, we should see J2 following R1b migration to Western Europe which is not the case. So R1b homeland must be the steppe and only the steppe.

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    BTW if R1b originated in the Caucasus and Anatolia and didn't mix with the Danubian populations, western european should have had more western Asian component in their genetic admixture

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    what about the epizephyrian Locri in Magna Grecia is that slavic Balkar also?
    remember locri is from Locris central greece to west Fyrom today nation area.
    Locri where the tallest among Greeks and lived in Mountain areas
    Locri is also the alternate name of upper (makedonians)

    sp now we are abandon a possible R1a come with J2b from minor Asia, in balkans and we are connecting it with North only,
    hmmmm

    IF , I ask if Summer = Gomer and first IE were the Sumerians that means either R1b either R1a should be south area of caucas,



    so now we connecting Erzerovo tombs with R1b?

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    Maciamo pretty much nailed it, and there's also something important to remember about I2a in the Balkans: I2a-Din-L147 has a TMRCA of no more than 3000 years or so, which clearly demonstrates an expansion AFTER European R1b, probably southward. That means that we wouldn't expect mixing with R1b if we assume that R1b took a route through the Balkans... rather, we would expect (and see) mixing with the R1a that took the more northerly route, followed by a more recent expansion southward.

    The I2 that we've observed in ancient Neolithic samples are NOT of the type found in the Balkans, they have been I2a-M26, like we see in Sardinia... that, we see mixed with R1b more thoroughly. The kind we see in the Balkans probably comes from a smaller Neolithic population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Another thing to correct in the 5th map: the Greco-Macedonians and Thracians were probably not R1a but R1b, and didn't descend directly from the Trzciniec culture but from the R1b already established in the Balkans (Cernavoda, Ezero, etc.). The R1a in the Balkans came much later with the Scythians, Sarmatians, Slavs, Bulgars, and so on.
    Thracians and Dacians were Satem speakers, how could they have been R1b rather than R1a?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    BTW if R1b originated in the Caucasus and Anatolia and didn't mix with the Danubian populations, western european should have had more western Asian component in their genetic admixture.
    not if Asia minor (at least north part of it perhaps together with Caucasus) was R1b dominant area...
    and other haplogroups settled it later...


    That is my point. R1b stayed thousands of year in Anatolia among a majority of J2 populations. So if R1b really originated there, we should see J2 following R1b migration to Western Europe which is not the case. So R1b homeland must be the steppe and only the steppe.
    J2 maybe entered area later... in fact, maybe R1a entered Asia minor as Hittite, and J2 perhaps with E-V13 entered through south most end of Asia minor...

    European R1b has such variance that allows even estimating timing of spread to certain areas...... large variance in Asia minor indicates that it was for long time settlement area of R1b.....
    perhaps pre-Hittite Hatti were R1b, but I think Hatti were related to Germanic people so perhaps haplogroup I...


    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Maciamo pretty much nailed it, and there's also something important to remember about I2a in the Balkans: I2a-Din-L147 has a TMRCA of no more than 3000 years or so, which clearly demonstrates an expansion AFTER European R1b, probably southward. That means that we wouldn't expect mixing with R1b if we assume that R1b took a route through the Balkans... rather, we would expect (and see) mixing with the R1a that took the more northerly route, followed by a more recent expansion southward.

    The I2 that we've observed in ancient Neolithic samples are NOT of the type found in the Balkans, they have been I2a-M26, like we see in Sardinia... that, we see mixed with R1b more thoroughly. The kind we see in the Balkans probably comes from a smaller Neolithic population.
    I think that in Balkans Slavs brought mainly I2a-din, while R1a was mostly native - ancient Macedonians...

    Serbs came from white Serbia that can only be mapped to Bohemia that is local source of I2a2, and Croats from white Croatia whose core was Galicia which is another local source of I2a2... in fact, it is indicated that white Serbia and white Croatia were neighbouring areas which maps to stretch of I2a-din along Carpathians (also called Mont Serrorum, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Mountains) from Black sea to Bohemia.... in fact Carpati = tribal name Hrvati, montes Serrorum = mountains of Serians... proto-Serbs I think were those Serians who were moving along Danube from Bohemia towards south perhaps as Scordisci/Serdi and Tribali....

    Dacians were in between - they had proto-Serbs on south/sothwest and proto-Croats on north...
    lol, if Lithuanians were Dacians as suggested by Dagne...that proximity may explain why Serbs, Croats and Lithuanians excel in basketball... perhaps there was similar game popular in area... however, Balts have significant haplogroup N while Croats have almost no N and Serbs have around 7% which is low but much more than environment...which contradicts assumption I made unless Balts only got N when they moved to north...


    R1a we find equally in FYRM Slavs and albanians, while I2a2 we find as dominant in FYRM Slavs and almost not existing in FYRM Albanians. FYRM Albanians have same R1a as Serbs from Serbia and Macedonian Slavs from FYRM and much more R1a than Slavic Montenegro. all south Slavs are distinguished from environment by dominant i2a-din.....
    In Greek Macedonians R1a tend to be very frequent...

    I think I2a-din is related to Cimmerians...


    if you look at spread of Ciimmerians imagine it as I2a-din, than take Serbs and Croats from cores of those spreads and bring them from white-Serbia and white-Croatia to their current locations you get I2a-din looking like this



    on Balkan Cimmerians didnot spread in Illyria, and south Thrace, but we find them in Danube basin, north of Black sea and north of Carpatians..hence almost no I2a-din in Albanians from north Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia....
    curiously, there is I2a-din in south Albanians.... it could have been Slavic population or older I2a-din mix that travelled with J2

    in Roman era we should try to map I2a-din to Tribali, Scordisci, perhaps also Panonians and Veneti... although last two could have been R1a...

    R1a would be Scythians, ancient Macedonians, and Thracians
    Sarmatians would be haplogroup G and R1a

    and Dacians are puzzle ...
    both Dacians and Getae seems to me as originally germanic tribal names... so they could have been R1b or I2b people... in fact, from some I2b maps I have seen, Getae might have been I2b
    Dacians could have been R1b or R1a... not sure...


    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    Thracians and Dacians were Satem speakers, how could they have been R1b rather than R1a?
    good point


    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    good question

    Maybe its because the I2a2 was brought in the balkans by the goths , who stayed there for over 200 years.
    in that case I2a-din can be related only to Ostrogoths , as there is no I2a-din in lands that Visigoths ruled over... such as Spain, south France, Italy...
    I find it strange that Ostrogoths and Visigoths didnot have same lineages, but is possible...

    also, from what I explained above south Slavs were I2a2 dominant people when they entered Balkan...
    I relate them to white Serians
    but indeed Goths could have been I2a2-din, and white Serians /white Syrians could have been those Goths or Guti who ruled over Sumer (according to Strabo sumerians = Syrians)...there is an issue of language here...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_dynasty_of_Sumer

    there is disputed medieval chronicle that states south Slavs are Goths...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic...iest_of_Duklja

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    J2 maybe entered area later... in fact, maybe R1a entered Asia minor as Hittite, and J2 perhaps with E-V13 entered through south most end of Asia minor...
    But such migration in the south of Asia minor is not recorded by the History

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I think that in Balkans Slavs brought mainly I2a-din, while R1a was mostly native - ancient Macedonians...
    I haven't seen any quality estimates of how much R1a in the Balkans is pre-I2a-Din migration and how much is post-I2a-Din migration, but there's a real possibility that you could be right about that. Although, I definitely don't think that the South Slav migrants were purely I2a-Din by any means, and I still think that the proto-Balto-Slavs (Corded Ware descendants?) were mostly R1a that trasmitted their culture to a small I2a-Din people who then lucked into an expansion... although that expanding I2a-Din population could have had a real effect on the development of Slavic culture (less so on Baltic culture, which is probably a more direct continuation of early proto-Balto-Slavs under that hypothesis).

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I think I2a-din is related to Cimmerians...
    I think that pushes I2a-Din's origins too far East, and supposes them to have been a larger population early on than they actually were... although I don't have a great candidate for who they would have been, instead. I wouldn't be surprised if I2a-Din people weren't the original Cimmerians, but got adapted into their culture. Were there any non-IE candidates nearby that would fit that description, perhaps a bit to the West? I'd be interested in looking at a full range of possibilities here.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    curiously, there is I2a-din in south Albanians.... it could have been Slavic population or older I2a-din mix that travelled with J2
    If it's really I2a-Din, then it's not that old. Must be transmission from the Slavs. If some of it is I2a-M26, that's a different story...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I haven't seen any quality estimates of how much R1a in the Balkans is pre-I2a-Din migration and how much is post-I2a-Din migration, but there's a real possibility that you could be right about that. Although, I definitely don't think that the South Slav migrants were purely I2a-Din by any means, and I still think that the proto-Balto-Slavs (Corded Ware descendants?) were mostly R1a that trasmitted their culture to a small I2a-Din people who then lucked into an expansion... although that expanding I2a-Din population could have had a real effect on the development of Slavic culture (less so on Baltic culture, which is probably a more direct continuation of early proto-Balto-Slavs under that hypothesis).
    yes, Taranis mentioned that Baltic is essentially Balto-slavic, while Slavic has lot of added features on top of it...
    that would be influence of I2a-din language on R1a language

    I think that pushes I2a-Din's origins too far East, and supposes them to have been a larger population early on than they actually were... although I don't have a great candidate for who they would have been, instead. I wouldn't be surprised if I2a-Din people weren't the original Cimmerians, but got adapted into their culture. Were there any non-IE candidates nearby that would fit that description, perhaps a bit to the West? I'd be interested in looking at a full range of possibilities here.
    Cetlic Scordisci/Serdi/Boii and Helveti
    east Germanic Scirri and Hirri /Heruli

    I find it very interesting that those tribes were paired same as Serbs and Croats are....
    Scordisci are often mentioned in relation to Helveti, and Scirri in relation to Hirri...

    note that cores of I2a2 outside of Balkan are Bohemia and Galicia - both named after Celts.... Bohemia to Boii and Galicia is clearly a name for settlement of Gali/Gauls = Celts


    Scordisci/Serdi and Sherden are interesting with respect to spread of I2a-din into Asia...

    Scordisci/Serdi and Sherden may be same tribal name... today we have I2a-din in Kurds which is tribal name that may origin from tribal name Sherden/ Scordisci


    If it's really I2a-Din, then it's not that old. Must be transmission from the Slavs. If some of it is I2a-M26, that's a different story...
    I think that Slavs who settled Macedonia also settled south Albania that was in that time Greek people...and albanians expanded to south later from mountains on north...
    that scenario also explains lot of Slavic toponyms all over south and central Albania...
    besides area of south Albania was for long time ruled by Bulgarians...

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    But such migration in the south of Asia minor is not recorded by the History
    well, maybe it is but we do not recognize it...

    J2+ E-V13 are in my opinion real Sumerians/Syrians... Syrians did spread along Levant into south Anatolia...

    while Gutians who ruled over Sumer for like 100 years could have been I2a-din that became white-Syrians and now Kurds...
    alternatively, or as another wave, Shereden sea peoples (Serbonian bog in Egypt is place named after them) could be origin of I2a-din in Kurds...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    well, maybe it is but we do not recognize it...

    J2+ E-V13 are in my opinion real Sumerians/Syrians... Syrians did spread along Levant into south Anatolia...
    Really? What does History tell us?

    Massive invasion of Anatolia from Syria and destruction of the Hattian civilization and its people?

    I don't think so...

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    But such migration in the south of Asia minor is not recorded by the History
    in about 1200 BC there was the bronze age migrations from asia minor

    there is a lot of literature on

    http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-01151-3.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    in about 1200 BC there was the bronze age migrations from asia minor
    According to How yes no a migration from Syria to Anatolia brought J2 and Ev13 and replace the majority of R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    in about 1200 BC there was the bronze age migrations from asia minor

    there is a lot of literature on

    http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-01151-3.html

    I believe much before
    if hettits are from about 2000 means Hattians were before at least 3-4 centuries,

    copper was known from 3500 bc

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    well, maybe it is but we do not recognize it...

    J2+ E-V13 are in my opinion real Sumerians/Syrians... Syrians did spread along Levant into south Anatolia...

    while Gutians who ruled over Sumer for like 100 years could have been I2a-din that became white-Syrians and now Kurds...
    alternatively, or as another wave, Shereden sea peoples (Serbonian bog in Egypt is place named after them) could be origin of I2a-din in Kurds...

    E-V13 came about or before hettits about little before 2000
    J2 it depends, and which j2
    some j2 are older in greece before 2000 BC and at my estimation and thera island and sesclo dimini are at least before 3500 BC the minor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    According to How yes no a migration from Syria to Anatolia brought J2 and Ev13 and replace the majority of R1b.
    bronze age immigrations in the aegean includes asia minor, the hittites (hatti), trojans, lydians, paphlogians, bithynians , myceanean greeks etc etc

    I do not know about how and yes reference

    I just stated that there was a huge 1200BC migration from the area

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    I believe much before
    if hettits are from about 2000 means Hattians were before at least 3-4 centuries,

    copper was known from 3500 bc
    are hitties and hatti the same, hittite text at the time of the trojan war ( 1198 -1185 BC ) still has hittites in asia minor. text say they laft about 1170BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    bronze age immigrations in the aegean includes asia minor, the hittites (hatti), trojans, lydians, paphlogians, bithynians , myceanean greeks etc etc

    I do not know about how and yes reference

    I just stated that there was a huge 1200BC migration from the area
    indeed there was a migration to north of balkans from minor asia that time
    200 years after we have etruscans moving west,
    no Hettits are not Hattians Hattians is the father of pelasgian Non IE
    Hatti-son = Attikon = Attica
    a possible domino is the entrance of hettits in minor asia from pontic caucasus
    or an even previus or later,

    Hettits destroy Greek city miletus that means that IE were already in Greece before hettits
    cause miletos-millawassa
    ilias-ilawassa etc
    they speak same language
    Pelasgians - peleset were before IE
    so J2 was already here much before 1200

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Really? What does History tell us?

    Massive invasion of Anatolia from Syria and destruction of the Hattian civilization and its people?

    I don't think so...
    why do you think people spread only by wars?
    Syrians lived in Levant, so it is highly likely that E-V13 + J2 continued along sea coast...
    while white-syrians lived in Capadocia...


    It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/16A*.html

    gulf of Issus is south Anatolia
    Euxine is Black sea


    At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians,"3 as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus. When those who have written histories of the Syrian empire say that the Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus; and, of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus in Aturia, and his wife, Semiramis, was the woman who succeeded her husband and founded Babylon. These two gained the mastery of Asia; and as for Semiramis, apart from her works at Babylon, many others are also to be seen throughout almost the whole of that continent, I mean the mounds called the Mounds of Semiramis, and walls, and the construction of fortifications with aqueducts therein, and of reservoirs for drinking-water, and of ladder-like ascents of mountains, and of channels in rivers and lakes, and of roads and bridges. And they left to their successors their empire until the time of the empires of Sardanapalus and Arbaces. But later the empire passed over to the Medes.
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/16A*.html


    Syrians = Sumerians and we know that there was kind of merge of Akkadian and Sumerian
    perhaps E-V13 is Akkadian, and J2 Sumerian... or other way around

    hm, maybe Akkadian later gives Acheans / Danaans (in fact Akkadian may be composite name = Achean + Danaan)



    they probably spread in ancient times into Asia minor.

    Hitittes came from Caucasus and pushed out previous people.... from north part of Asia minor



    this indicates R1b or G or R1a or combination...

    haplogroup G matches well form of Hititte state...

    some possibilities:
    1) R1b are Hatti
    G is Hittite

    2) I haplogroups are Hatti
    Hittite are R1b + G

    in any case
    E-V13 + J2 spreads along south anatolia from Levant
    and R1a could have been Hurians


    1900 BC - Hittite enter from Caucasus

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ma...in_1900BCE.svg

    now 1900 BC is too late for European R1b to enter... but it could have been Caucasian one...
    R1b that entered to Europe brought copper and was much before...


    Hurians could have been r1a..


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians

  24. #24
    Viscount iapetoc's Avatar
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    I have seen the maps,

    I know about a Celtic move that time to Greece But i disagree with name,

    also E-V13 is so old that existed 9kyb ?

    and can we have some descriptions about J2 if a or b and not just J2

  25. #25
    aimless wanderer Mzungu mchagga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's easier to visualise all this on the migration maps I created. Just one error I need to fix on the first map: the Pontic-Caspian Neolithic was probably composed I2a2 and E1b1b lineages, not R1a as indicated. That is why I2a2 and E1b1b peak as far to the north-east as Belarus today. Some R1a people might have lived side-by-side in the same region at the same time, but as foragers (hunter-gatherers) not farmers.

    Another thing to correct in the 5th map: the Greco-Macedonians and Thracians were probably not R1a but R1b, and didn't descend directly from the Trzciniec culture but from the R1b already established in the Balkans (Cernavoda, Ezero, etc.). The R1a in the Balkans came much later with the Scythians, Sarmatians, Slavs, Bulgars, and so on.
    Where on the first map would you locate R1a then? Or at least as the major component?

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