If R1b comes from the east why it didn't bring I2a2 with it?

I believe much before
if hettits are from about 2000 means Hattians were before at least 3-4 centuries,

copper was known from 3500 bc

are hitties and hatti the same, hittite text at the time of the trojan war ( 1198 -1185 BC ) still has hittites in asia minor. text say they laft about 1170BC
 
bronze age immigrations in the aegean includes asia minor, the hittites (hatti), trojans, lydians, paphlogians, bithynians , myceanean greeks etc etc

I do not know about how and yes reference

I just stated that there was a huge 1200BC migration from the area

indeed there was a migration to north of balkans from minor asia that time
200 years after we have etruscans moving west,
no Hettits are not Hattians Hattians is the father of pelasgian Non IE
Hatti-son = Attikon = Attica
a possible domino is the entrance of hettits in minor asia from pontic caucasus
or an even previus or later,

Hettits destroy Greek city miletus that means that IE were already in Greece before hettits
cause miletos-millawassa
ilias-ilawassa etc
they speak same language
Pelasgians - peleset were before IE
so J2 was already here much before 1200
 
Really? What does History tell us?

Massive invasion of Anatolia from Syria and destruction of the Hattian civilization and its people?

I don't think so...

why do you think people spread only by wars?
Syrians lived in Levant, so it is highly likely that E-V13 + J2 continued along sea coast...
while white-syrians lived in Capadocia...


It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/16A*.html

gulf of Issus is south Anatolia
Euxine is Black sea


At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians,"3 as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus. When those who have written histories of the Syrian empire say that the Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus; and, of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus in Aturia, and his wife, Semiramis, was the woman who succeeded her husband and founded Babylon. These two gained the mastery of Asia; and as for Semiramis, apart from her works at Babylon, many others are also to be seen throughout almost the whole of that continent, I mean the mounds called the Mounds of Semiramis, and walls, and the construction of fortifications with aqueducts therein, and of reservoirs for drinking-water, and of ladder-like ascents of mountains, and of channels in rivers and lakes, and of roads and bridges. And they left to their successors their empire until the time of the empires of Sardanapalus and Arbaces. But later the empire passed over to the Medes.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/16A*.html


Syrians = Sumerians and we know that there was kind of merge of Akkadian and Sumerian
perhaps E-V13 is Akkadian, and J2 Sumerian... or other way around

hm, maybe Akkadian later gives Acheans / Danaans (in fact Akkadian may be composite name = Achean + Danaan)



they probably spread in ancient times into Asia minor.

Hitittes came from Caucasus and pushed out previous people.... from north part of Asia minor



this indicates R1b or G or R1a or combination...

haplogroup G matches well form of Hititte state...

some possibilities:
1) R1b are Hatti
G is Hittite

2) I haplogroups are Hatti
Hittite are R1b + G

in any case
E-V13 + J2 spreads along south anatolia from Levant
and R1a could have been Hurians


1900 BC - Hittite enter from Caucasus
800px-Mass_migration_of_Greece_and_Turkey_in_1900BCE.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mass_migration_of_Greece_and_Turkey_in_1900BCE.svg

now 1900 BC is too late for European R1b to enter... but it could have been Caucasian one...
R1b that entered to Europe brought copper and was much before...


Hurians could have been r1a..

Orientmitja2300aC.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians
 
I have seen the maps,

I know about a Celtic move that time to Greece But i disagree with name,

also E-V13 is so old that existed 9kyb ?

and can we have some descriptions about J2 if a or b and not just J2
 
It's easier to visualise all this on the migration maps I created. Just one error I need to fix on the first map: the Pontic-Caspian Neolithic was probably composed I2a2 and E1b1b lineages, not R1a as indicated. That is why I2a2 and E1b1b peak as far to the north-east as Belarus today. Some R1a people might have lived side-by-side in the same region at the same time, but as foragers (hunter-gatherers) not farmers.

Another thing to correct in the 5th map: the Greco-Macedonians and Thracians were probably not R1a but R1b, and didn't descend directly from the Trzciniec culture but from the R1b already established in the Balkans (Cernavoda, Ezero, etc.). The R1a in the Balkans came much later with the Scythians, Sarmatians, Slavs, Bulgars, and so on.

Where on the first map would you locate R1a then? Or at least as the major component?
 
Where on the first map would you locate R1a then? Or at least as the major component?

In the grey area of Russia, where only hunter-gatherer cultures existed at the time.
 
That is my point. R1b stayed thousands of year in Anatolia among a majority of J2 populations. So if R1b really originated there, we should see J2 following R1b migration to Western Europe which is not the case. So R1b homeland must be the steppe and only the steppe.

Hunter-gathering tribes didn't mix with one another so easily. J2, G2a and R1b people might very well have lived side by side around Anatolia and the Caucasus for a few thousands years. It is possible that J2 and G2a people were the first to develop agriculture, and that they pushed many R1b people out of Anatolia to the steppes when they started expanding and taking hunting land for agriculture. Some R1b might have been encircled and eventually assimilated, while others crossed the Caucasus. It seems that they already knew domestication when they reached the steppes, which is why the Indo-Europeans developed a society based on stockbreeding, and eventually tamed horses to ride them to control better their herds. They were the first "cowboys". It's pretty amazing that North-western Europeans repeated so faithfully the behaviour of their PIE ancestors when they settled North America and Australia. They took advantage of their horses and better weaponry to conquer the land of the less developed hunter-gatherers and primitive farmers that they encountered, created vast ranches for their cows and sheep. It's pretty much what the R1b people did when they moved from the steppes to Western Europe. If behaviour is anchored in the genes, then it is not that surprising that of all people, North-western Europeans should be the direct descendants of the Bronze-age PIE from the Pontic steppes.
 
BTW if R1b originated in the Caucasus and Anatolia and didn't mix with the Danubian populations, western european should have had more western Asian component in their genetic admixture

No. The "West Asian" component used by Dienekes only refers to the modern West Asians (mostly G2a and J2), not the people who lived in the region in the remote past but left. I explained that in this thread 10 days ago. The R1b people didn't mix much with Danubian people, but they did mix a lot with the Neolithic Western Europeans (I1, I2a1, I2b, G2a). Based on the difference between paternal and maternal lineages, a lot of Neolithic Western Europeans were taken as wives by the invading R1b. That's why I think that the R1b men had some sorts of harem, which allowed R1b to replace so quickly older paternal lineages, while maintaining most of the maternal lineages.
 
Thracians and Dacians were Satem speakers, how could they have been R1b rather than R1a?

I didn't mention that Dacians, but that's exactly because the Thracians were satem speakers that I originally classified them as R1a. But I have doubts about this, because if the R1a expansion happened so early there should be much more R1a proportionally to R1b in Bulgaria, Macedonia and north-western Anatolia. Then the Thracians could also have been mixed R1a and R1b. They are one of the most difficult people to classify because they migrated to the Balkans around the time when the R1b people had almost completely left the steppes and nearly finished moving to central and western Europe, and when R1a people started filling the gap in the steppes and the Balkans.
 
Hunter-gathering tribes didn't mix with one another so easily. J2, G2a and R1b people might very well have lived side by side around Anatolia and the Caucasus for a few thousands years.


Even if they didn't mix with other Anatolian populations,Anatolian R1b people must have spoken and brought to Europe something like the Hattian language (non IE)
 
No. The "West Asian" component used by Dienekes only refers to the modern West Asians (mostly G2a and J2), not the people who lived in the region in the remote past but left

Northern Indian have the "Dagestan" that goes back to Indo Aryan stay in the mitanni area (thousands of years ago)
 
Hunter-gathering tribes didn't mix with one another so easily. J2, G2a and R1b people might very well have lived side by side around Anatolia and the Caucasus for a few thousands years.

In an other you said that unlike R1a, R1b people didn't keep the Steppic phenotype since they were more mixed with other populations
 
Hunter-gathering tribes didn't mix with one another so easily. J2, G2a and R1b people might very well have lived side by side around Anatolia and the Caucasus for a few thousands years. It is possible that J2 and G2a people were the first to develop agriculture, and that they pushed many R1b people out of Anatolia to the steppes when they started expanding and taking hunting land for agriculture. Some R1b might have been encircled and eventually assimilated, while others crossed the Caucasus. It seems that they already knew domestication when they reached the steppes, which is why the Indo-Europeans developed a society based on stockbreeding, and eventually tamed horses to ride them to control better their herds. They were the first "cowboys". It's pretty amazing that North-western Europeans repeated so faithfully the behaviour of their PIE ancestors when they settled North America and Australia. They took advantage of their horses and better weaponry to conquer the land of the less developed hunter-gatherers and primitive farmers that they encountered, created vast ranches for their cows and sheep. It's pretty much what the R1b people did when they moved from the steppes to Western Europe. If behaviour is anchored in the genes, then it is not that surprising that of all people, North-western Europeans should be the direct descendants of the Bronze-age PIE from the Pontic steppes.


that story reminds me another story from christian bible, we know that there was en era were people were divided in city dwell and nomads,
Abraham and Lot as also the abraham case by it self,
although around we find city names and 1 of the most ancient is jericho, Abraham continue to leave in tents, and he avoid cities,
we know that G2a people like etruscans had wall cities, but how sure we are that R1b people did not organised in cities?
 
Even if they didn't mix with other Anatolian populations,Anatolian R1b people must have spoken and brought to Europe something like the Hattian language (non IE)

hattian is a west meta Ugaritic
Hattian is father or brother language of Pelasgian who is father language of Etruscan, Phillistine, Minoan, Illyrian proprie, Thessalian argos , Attica and possible of Troy
in fact attica means sons of hattian Hathi-son
from thoukidides we know that Athens before IE spoke a relative to thyrrenian language which is connected with Minoan language, (athens change language bedores the return of temenides est time 900 bc)


in fact words like aqua or naval is not IE but hattian
 
In an other you said that unlike R1a, R1b people didn't keep the Steppic phenotype since they were more mixed with other populations

That's right, but let's not mix everything up. At the age of the hunter-gatherers people didn't mix much with other tribes. But after the Indo-Europeans conquered Europe and Asia, they eventually end up blending with the conquered people. I always said that the Indo-Europeans killed or ostracised the indigenous men and took their women. That's how they lost their steppe phenotype. Anyway that was 4500 years ago, and there has been plenty of time for phenotypes to evolve.
 
Even if they didn't mix with other Anatolian populations,Anatolian R1b people must have spoken and brought to Europe something like the Hattian language (non IE)

I don't see why. Even 100 years ago people spoke very different dialects or languages just 20 or 30 km away within pretty much any European country. If the R1b, G2a and J2 people never mixed during the Paleolithic and Mesolithic (and I think they didn't), then there is absolutely no way they could speak a similar language. Big language families, like Indo-European, Semitic, Hattic or Caucasian date back to the Paleolithic, when tribes stayed away from people very different from them. It's only after the rise of civilizations and empires that people were united under a common administrative language, and even then the ordinary people kept speaking the language of their ancestors.

The Greeks conquered the Middle East under Alexander, but never succeeded in replacing local languages by Greek in 300 years. The Romans failed to impose Latin too across the whole empire, except where people already spoke a mutually intelligible language (those of the Italo-Celtic family, be it Oscan, Gaulish, Celtiberian or Brythonic). Greek dialects were widely spoken in parts of South Italy (like in Calabria) until recently, and are still spoken to this day in some villages. Basque managed to survive all attempts of eradication and all foreign influence apparently since the Paleolithic (or at latest since the Neolithic). So I really don't see how R1b people in Mesolithic Anatolia could have adopted Hattian or any other utterly foreign language so easily. The chances are less than one in a million.

Language replacement can happen quickly when languages are closely related grammatically (like Gaulish and Latin, or Aramaic and Arabic, or German dialects and Hochdeutsch), but otherwise doesn't happen without a major population shift. This is why it makes absolutely no sense to envisage a diffusion of Indo-European languages by mere contact with neighbours. At small scale, it has happened that a small ruling class manage to impose its language over the conquered people, but that too doesn't normally happen, as I have explained with the Greeks and Romans. For an imported language to successfully replace in deeply rooted indigenous languages a radical population change is required. This is why I cannot envisage any other scenario than a violent conquest by the Indo-Europeans, accompanied by a quick gene replacement. So far all ancient DNA studies confirm this, since R1b has never been found in Paleolithic or Neolithic sites in Europe.
 
hattian is a west meta Ugaritic
Hattian is father or brother language of Pelasgian who is father language of Etruscan, Phillistine, Minoan, Illyrian proprie, Thessalian argos , Attica and possible of Troy
in fact attica means sons of hattian Hathi-son
from thoukidides we know that Athens before IE spoke a relative to thyrrenian language which is connected with Minoan language, (athens change language bedores the return of temenides est time 900 bc)


in fact words like aqua or naval is not IE but hattian

It is entirely possible that all these languages are related to haplogroup J2 and/or G2a, while Semitic languages would originate in E1b1b and T.
 
Hunter-gathering tribes didn't mix with one another so easily. J2, G2a and R1b people might very well have lived side by side around Anatolia and the Caucasus for a few thousands years.

Hunter-gathering tribes really? At the time where R1b is supposed to leave Anatolia, there was already big cities in the area where people are more likely to mix than in the steppe.

I can't imagine that R1b people lived thousands of year near cities like Catalhöyük without having contact and mixing with the cities'inhabitants
 
It is entirely possible that all these languages are related to haplogroup J2 and/or G2a, while Semitic languages would originate in E1b1b and T.
It's a well-known fact that the Semitic languages originated in some subclades of haplogroup j1.

I believe that the very first Semites were J1 & E1 people.
 
It's a well-known fact that the Semitic languages originated in some subclades of haplogroup j1.

I believe that the very first Semites were J1 & E1 people.

Yes, the Proto-Semitic speakers were very likely J1, but the actual proto-speakers of the greater Afro-Asiatic language family (which, in addition to the Semitic family, includes the Berber languages, Egyptian, Chadic, as well as a few other language families at the Horn of Africa) were not. Haplogroup E1b1b is a far better candidate for Afro-Asiatic as a whole.

Besides, in my opinion, (Western) European R1b is not originally from Anatolia. What speaks heavily for this is the fact that the outgroup of R1b-M269 (which, after all, makes up virtually all Western European R1b) is R1b-M73, which is the Central Asian branch of R1b. In my opinion, the origin of R1b, at least of R1b-P297 (which is the combined clade of both the Western European and Central Asian branches of R1b) is most likely the Caspian-Uralic region.
 

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