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Thread: the West European component in the Dodecad project

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    The map is incorrect, because Spaniards have 42 % of West-European, while Belorussians have 28%. This map is more accurate :


    Could the surprisingly higher scores in Pakistan, India, and Afghanistan of this Western European component (relative to the regions surrounding those countries that have much less) mean anything significant?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    Could the surprisingly higher scores in Pakistan, India, and Afghanistan of this Western European component (relative to the regions surrounding those countries that have much less) mean anything significant?
    What about the surprizing 5% in Mongolia and 9% in Siberia? I think that it should be named North-West Eurasian since it seems to correlate with exactly that area...otherwise 14% in NE Asia in comparison with 13% in Sicily and Greece don't make sense.

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    Finland more western than Portugal...

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    Scotland less western than England and Ireland, interesting. Knowing that the med component in Orcadians is fairly high and that Scots, Angles and viking invasions may have lower it, there is no doubt that Picts people also had a strong med component

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Finland more western than Portugal...
    It has already been said that Western includes also Northern euroepan, since it peaks in Scandinavians, and the european components are only West/East/Med

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    Could the surprisingly higher scores in Pakistan, India, and Afghanistan of this Western European component (relative to the regions surrounding those countries that have much less) mean anything significant?
    It has probably to do with the Indo-Aryan and indo-euroepan invasions. That's why you also see a lot of R1a in those areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    It has already been said that Western includes also Northern euroepan, since it peaks in Scandinavians, and the european components are only West/East/Med
    then why lithuanians have only 32% of it if it includes Northern European

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    then why lithuanians have only 32% of it if it includes Northern European
    Because in this run they appear much more Eastern european, they have near 70% East Euro, it's actually where it peaks, in Lithuanian

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I wonder if there is a correlation between the high percentage of red haired people in the British islands and this west european component. In my opinion red hair is pre-celtic
    feature in the British islands as it is unusual in other parts of western Europe.
    late answer indeed!

    Coon thought that red hairs was linked to his "paleolithic" populations...
    but: red hairs is linked to more than a locus on the genom

    this said, the maximum of every kind of red hairs in the worldis in the Scotland Highlands (official: 11%, my observations: 8-9%)
    as a whole Ireland come first 7,5% (8% Ulster) vs 6,5% for Scotland - Wales: 4,5% as England (but some parts of Western Wales: 6 or 7% - and Eastern England: only 2,5-3% (apart the industrial "celtized" districts!) -
    I too think to a preceltic but lately celtized population of mesolithic stock - some spots of red hairs in Europe, isolated sometimes:
    celtic speaking Brittany (old time!): 3-3,5% - french Flanders-Artois-Picardie: 3-3,5% but France as a whole: 1,4% - Walloon: 3% but Flanders: 1,8% - between Northern Hessen and Sachsen-Anhalt about 3-4%? but Germany as a whole: 1,8-2% - remote districts of Norway: 4% (but Norway as a whole: 1,7%) - some southern districts of Sweden (not the southernmost):4% to 5% (but Sweden as a whole: 3%) - in Switzerland: about 2,8-3% but where? I think better in"germanic" Schwyz...
    so a possible red hairs rich enough population or more numerous regional spots , drown after that by eastern Europe or Steppes populations not so rich (but look at the Mordvins???) - it is true that red hairs are seldom among baltic and finnic peoples and true Slavs despite their common enough fair haired people - the same for southern Europe populations so ???

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    do not link to tightly Y-DNA to autosomals even if statistically it could have been a link - on previous not so big populations drift could have done a little "mess" even if not so easily that believe someones -
    other peoples said yet that a lot of autsosomals of Baltic People can be inherited from a female population (maybe close enough to a part of Finns mothers) - the 'definition' of these poolings of genes are maybe not precise enough yet and can be improved in the future -even precise it can be "arbitrary" ... - for scottish people do not forget that Scotland people was divided in a first time in very different ethnies - an eastern element in autosomals can be came there with Vikings, not?
    I suppose that the "Western" or "North-Western" pool will be separated in more than a cluster, and that a lot of the genes envolved in these choices are of different even if partly akin ancient populations of Paleo- or Mesolithic origin -
    ad for the question of Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze Age people movements, I remember that some movements eastwards-westwards seam having taken place in the Early Mésolithic even if there is no typical cultural material attached to them -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    [--]I think that the explanation is that the "West European" component actually represents mostly the genes of Paleolithic I1 and I2b Northern Europeans, and that they inhabited all northern Europe from Ireland and Britain to Russia and Ukraine before being replaced by R1a and R1b. Studies have confirmed that R1 people have a higher sperm count than I people, and therefore R1 lineages could easily replace I linages by having a slightly higher percentage of boys each generation. That's why autosomal DNA doesn't match haplogroups. We shouldn't be comparing R1b and R1a regions, but look at what haplogroups were there before the R1 lineages eclipsed them.
    I 'm sorry for a so late post on this topic I would be glad knowing the exact impact of a more or less sperm count because at first sight I 'm not sure that a bit lower count of spermatozoids could diminish the number of children, males or females, when we known there are millions (until 200 millions sometimes) of spermatozoids in a "male coit package" ("ejaculation"???) - it 's not sure even that the difference of quality if minima could alter too much the performance: the better ones win the race, no?) - the females have a far more important roel in sexual reproduction I think, so? maybe am I a bit naive? read you again

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    R1b is linked with the spread of Christianity not evil super aggresiveness or super sperm. If anything Pagan groups attacked early christian r1b populations. Red Hair is the evolutionary transition to Blonde. Hair does not turn from Black to Blonde overnight. It is gradual.

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    If that's true, then red hair would be more common than blond...not the case at all. The gene for red hair it's pretty específic, we are dealing with another kind of mutation.

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    "I' Haplotypes are related to J haplotypes thru IJ ? why don't J haplotypes have blonde hair?

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    Haplogroups aren't informative concerning light or dark traits at present, it's difficult to know if genuine J's were light or dark haired. If there's little frequence of light hair among populations having the highest percents of J, it's mostly due to autosomal inheritance. We have thousands of ancestors, and Y-DNA does not reflect nothing but one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by King Niall View Post
    R1b is linked with the spread of Christianity not evil super aggresiveness or super sperm. If anything Pagan groups attacked early christian r1b populations. Red Hair is the evolutionary transition to Blonde. Hair does not turn from Black to Blonde overnight. It is gradual.

    I agree with the evident remark of Knovas -
    red hair HAS NOTHING IN COMMON with blond or fair hair: it is more a quality problem than a quantity of pigments one -

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    red hairs depend on more than a locus (mutated) - the 'blond' condition can only (maybe) permit a more evident expression of one or two mutates genes in the direction of 'red' -
    the present day distribution of red and reddish hairs (with the skin colour and presence of freckles) seams showing for me a north central and northwestern strate population in Europe, diffferent from the not-'red' southwestern one, and that have been covered in a lot of places, more or less according to the places, by one or several not-'red' populations came from East (steppic and finnic peoples? surely enough a mesolithic population if not paleolithic ?
    the mutations could have occurred in different places but all the way have been kept in regions where previously they did not carry too much problemes for climatic adaptation ? (not too much sun...) - I would be glad if someone could tell me what are the blood groups of Mari and other finnic people of Russia where red hairs are common (even if blood groups is a very rough approach) -

    for the count of sperm I already answered the question: NO IMPACT for me on population

    concerning Christianity, I do not see any reason to link R1b to it, not at all!!! Y-R1b monks or preasts mating as rabbits ?!?

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    sorry - when I speak of meso or paleolithic population, I speak about the red hairs rich one - not about the steppic or finnic people

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    I don't know if it could help:
    a not too old survey about the HLA frequent groups among Basques, Madrid Spaniards and Alger Algerians showed :

    4 groups common to Basques and Madrilenes : 1 only iberian, 1 atlantic, 1 central european, 1 found too in Sardinia and Alger ! (pan-west-mediterranean? mesolithical ?) -
    1 group present only among Basques (mesolithical ? paleolithical?)
    1 group present among Algerians and North of the Mediterranea, BUT almost absent from Basques and Madrilenes
    1 group present among Algerians, Madrilenes and North of the Mediterranea, BUT absent from Basques -
    we can conclude that Basques have a lot of autosomal genes shared with Western Central Europe (megalithic and celtic late cultures, but inherited from previous populations ?) as do some Spaniards + with Mediterranea – but they retained some peculiar genes of them... all that doesn't contradict some autosomals analysis speaking about 'atlantmed' pe 'mediterranean'+'N-W euroepan' , even if it lacks precision...

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    I put this post here bit oit could have been posted as well in threads about ancient DNA (Ötzi) or present day HGs (Y-G2) or autosomals, because all that specifical approachs concern the same questions... SO ... here!

    here under, some relative %s concerning 'mediter', 'caucasian' and 'gedrosian':
    the 3 first column concern absolute %s, the three late concern relative %s: 'mediter' / 'mediter'+'caucaisan', 'mediter' / 'mediter'+'gedrosian', 'caucasian' / 'caucasian'+'gedrosian'

    autosomaux DODECAD 13 MEDIT CAUCA GEDRO b:b+c b: b+d c: c+d
    Basques France 70,2 0,1 7,6 99,9 90,2 1,3
    Ecosse Orcades 41,4 0,4 9,7 99,0 81,0 4,0
    Suède 33,5 1,1 6,1 96,8 84,6 15,3
    Norvège 36,0 1,2 6,4 96,8 84,9 15,8
    Irlande 41,1 1,5 9,5 96,5 81,2 13,6
    AFN Mozabites 4,2 0,2 0,4 95,5 91,3 33,3
    Portugal 41,2 2,9 7,8 93,4 84,1 27,1
    Grande-Bretagne 41,9 3,0 8,4 93,3 83,3 26,3
    Finlande 15,3 1,5 0,3 91,1 98,1 83,3
    Pays-Bas 39,7 5,1 8,1 88,6 83,1 38,6
    Espagne 52,9 7,9 4,9 87,0 91,5 61,7
    Allemagne S- Autriche 39,5 6,4 7,1 86,1 84,8 47,4
    France 1 45,4 8,2 5,3 84,7 89,5 60,7
    France 2 44,8 8,4 6,3 84,2 87,7 57,1
    Italie Sardaigne 75,5 15,8 0,0 82,7 100,0 100,0
    Allemagne 34,8 7,8 4,4 81,7 88,8 63,9
    Indes Brahui 6,3 2,0 67,6 75,9 8,5 2,9
    Lithuanie 17,3 6,6 0,2 72,4 98,9 97,1
    Pologne 23,9 11,1 0,7 68,3 97,2 94,1
    Italie N 2 45,7 21,3 2,6 68,2 94,6 89,1
    Italie N 1 42,5 21,4 3,1 66,5 93,2 87,3
    Russie 14,6 8,2 1,3 64,0 91,8 86,3
    Biélo-Russie 18,8 10,6 0,3 63,9 98,4 97,2
    Italie Toscane 40,0 28,3 2,5 58,6 94,1 91,9
    Italie O 36,9 28,4 3,6 56,5 91,1 88,8
    Italie C 36,6 30,9 2,8 54,2 92,9 91,7
    Bulgarie 27,2 28,4 1,3 48,9 95,4 95,6
    Italie S- Sicile 32,9 35,1 3,5 48,4 90,4 90,9
    Italie Sicile 32,4 35,5 2,6 47,7 92,6 93,2
    Juifs Askhenazes 2 29,4 34,0 2,0 46,4 93,6 94,4
    Tchuvashes 8,2 9,6 3,5 46,1 70,1 73,3
    Juifs Askhenazes 1 29,6 34,8 1,7 46,0 94,6 95,3
    Italie S 32,2 38,2 2,1 45,7 93,9 94,8
    Grèce 30,4 37,5 1,7 44,8 94,7 95,7
    Balouchistan 4,7 6,0 63,3 43,9 6,9 8,7
    Pakistan? Makrani 4,4 7,2 60,0 37,9 6,8 10,7
    Chypre 23,7 48,7 3,1 32,7 88,4 94,0
    Egypte 11,2 27,4 1,2 29,0 90,3 95,8
    Bédouins 7,0 18,2 3,4 27,8 67,3 84,3
    Pakistan Sindhi 2,4 6,4 49,4 27,3 4,6 11,5
    Indes 1,6 4,3 38,9 27,1 4,0 10,0
    Palestine 13,4 36,8 5,0 26,7 72,8 88,0
    Turquie 15,6 45,7 9,5 25,4 62,2 82,8
    Juifs Azerbaidjan 11,5 52,7 14,3 17,9 44,6 78,7
    Amenie 1 11,9 56,7 12,5 17,3 48,8 81,9
    Arménie 2 11,6 56,1 10,5 17,1 52,5 84,2
    Kurdistan 7,9 42,3 25,5 15,7 23,7 62,4
    Iran 7,2 40,5 25,9 15,1 21,8 61,0
    Uygurs 2,0 12,5 15,2 13,8 11,6 45,1
    Pakistan Pathans 1,6 13,9 42,6 10,3 3,6 24,6
    Adygei Tcherkesses 2,1 58,8 9,7 3,4 17,8 85,8
    Pakistan Burusho 0,1 10,5 41,8 0,9 0,2 20,1
    Liban Druzes 16,1 48,4 6,2 25,0 72,2 88,6

    you can see the western but also north-western general position of 'mediterranean' compared to the more south-eastern position of 'caucasian', and the fact that even in slavic lands (and more yet in baltic-finnic lands) 'mediter' is far more stronger than 'caucasian' compared to the situation in Italy, Bulgary and Greece without speak of the overwhelming domination of 'caucasian' in Caucasus and even if less, in Near-Eastern-Middle-Eastern countries -
    the 'gedrosian' presence in Germanic, Celtic and Basque countries was noticed yet by Spongetaro and others before.
    We 'll have occasion to debate about that in future, sure!
    good night!

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    I see the gedrosian ( eastern persian ) travelling north of the caspian and black seas and heading for british isles
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I see the gedrosian ( eastern persian ) travelling north of the caspian and black seas and heading for british isles
    I totally agree with you on this point -
    when? with (a) tribe(s) of I-E speakers or just before? but which?

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