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Thread: the West European component in the Dodecad project

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    the West European component in the Dodecad project

    http://blog.jattdna.org/?attachment_id=555

    This "West European" component is really weird. In the map, Sweden appears more Western than France and Spain. Spain appears as "Western" as the Belarus.
    What do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    http://blog.jattdna.org/?attachment_id=555

    This "West European" component is really weird. In the map, Sweden appears more Western than France and Spain. Spain appears as "Western" as the Belarus.
    What do you think?
    I think the shading is off. The colors do not correspond consistently to the recorded percentages.

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    In my case for example the West European was quite low compared to the Spanish average, while the East European was higher than the others. For the moment I am happier with the Eurogenes since I saw results with many European clusters, so I am waiting for a Dodecad run with a minimum of 4 European clusters to get something more accurate.

    PD: There was a Dodecad run with Sardinian, Basque, NW European and NE European. I wonder what I could get in this one, but it was made before I started joining the project, and Dienekes' told me he didn't plan to run more participants there.
    Last edited by Knovas; 18-07-11 at 14:06.

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    The problem is just one of naming the cluster. It should be called North-West European or North European and not West European. By the way, I pointed out that this so-called "West European" cluster was generally higher than the East European one in North, Central and South Asia. I think that the explanation is that the "West European" component actually represents mostly the genes of Paleolithic I1 and I2b Northern Europeans, and that they inhabited all northern Europe from Ireland and Britain to Russia and Ukraine before being replaced by R1a and R1b. Studies have confirmed that R1 people have a higher sperm count than I people, and therefore R1 lineages could easily replace I linages by having a slightly higher percentage of boys each generation. That's why autosomal DNA doesn't match haplogroups. We shouldn't be comparing R1b and R1a regions, but look at what haplogroups were there before the R1 lineages eclipsed them.
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    Of course when you see other population results, it's easy to note that West European and East European clusters are linked to Northern Europe. In my opinion this is not the problem since we know what this means. The problem is just have one cluster for Southern Europe, when it's perfectly plausible to separate Southwest Europe and Southeast Europe.

    This would be something similar, as I said, to the Sardinian and Basque component run, but a little bit more general, not anchored in two Isolated populations.

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    I wonder if there is a correlation between the high percentage of red haired people in the British islands and this west european component. In my opinion red hair is pre-celtic
    feature in the British islands as it is unusual in other parts of western Europe.

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    an other explanation could be that the Q celtic population that peopled the islands during the late bronze age was completely northern european (netherland, north-west Germany) while other atlantic celts would have been mainly of Alpine origin

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    I read somewhere that it's posible Neanderthals had usually red-hair. However, people of the British Islands made the Neanderthal test genes on Interpretome, and I don't remember high levels of Neanderthal genes in them. The highest score of a 23andme member I think was 26 of 89 genes; Northern European descent and mostly Scandinavian.

    My score for example was 13/89, and it's slightly high than others for what I saw, but nothing inusual. 26 is VERY high.

    Ancient Neanderthal admixture is another posibility, but I must admit it's very difficult to prove, and no correlation for the little I observed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I wonder if there is a correlation between the high percentage of red haired people in the British islands and this west european component. In my opinion red hair is pre-celtic
    feature in the British islands as it is unusual in other parts of western Europe.
    I disagree with that. Red hair is not specific to the British Isles and is at least as common in countries like Norway or Belgium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I read somewhere that it's posible Neanderthals had usually red-hair. However, people of the British Islands made the Neanderthal test genes on Interpretome, and I don't remember high levels of Neanderthal genes in them. The highest score of a 23andme member I think was 26 of 89 genes; Northern European descent and mostly Scandinavian.

    My score for example was 13/89, and it's slightly high than others for what I saw, but nothing inusual. 26 is VERY high.

    Ancient Neanderthal admixture is another posibility, but I must admit it's very difficult to prove, and no correlation for the little I observed.
    I also think that red hair could have come from Neanderthal. The question is where did the admixture happen and survive ? Was it in North-West Europe, or rather in North-East Europe ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I disagree with that. Red hair is not specific to the British Isles and is at least as common in countries like Norway or Belgium.
    the countries you mention have all strong west european component which I think the origin of red hair

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    Perhaps in the two places at the same time, it's not imposible they habited a vast territory in Northern Europe (note that all Europeans carry some Neanderthal genes, higher or less depending on the person). There's still a lot to investigate and, probaly, more Neanderthal genes to identify. Will be interesting to follow related reports.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    the countries you mention have all strong west european component which I think the origin of red hair
    Sweedish, Duth and Germans have also a lot of West European component. Red hair exist in them, like sure in Belgium or Norway but ¿do you really think it's very significant?

    The problem of red hair is that it's always a minority everywhere, althought perhaps it's true that in the British Isles it's higher in average. What I mean is that the West European component cannot be the only explanation for this, I think there is something we don't know.

    Just a few concrete Neanderthal alleles can be enough to generate red hair, and the problem is that this genes are still unknown. ¿Why not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Just a few concrete Neanderthal alleles can be enough to generate red hair, and the problem is that this genes are still unknown. ¿Why not?
    red hair is linked to the gene MC1R:

    Eighty percent of redheads have an MC1R gene variant,[5] and the prevalence of these alleles is highest in Scotland and Ireland. The alleles that code for red hair occur close to the alleles that affect skin color, so it seems that the phenotypic expression for lighter skin and red hair are interrelated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    The problem of red hair is that it's always a minority everywhere
    Red haired people are a minority in both Ireland and Scotland but nearly half of Scottish people carry the MC1R gene

    Scotland has the highest proportion of redheads, as 13 percent of the population has red hair and approximately 40 percent carries the recessive redhead gene.[8] Ireland has the second highest percentage; as many as 10 percent of the Irish population have red, auburn, or strawberry blond hair.[9] Red hair reaches frequencies of up to 10 percent in Wales.[10].

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Just a few concrete Neanderthal alleles can be enough to generate red hair
    MC1R might not have been responsible for red hair among Neanderthals

    A DNA study has concluded that some Neanderthals also had red hair, although the mutation responsible for this differs from that which causes red hair in modern humans.[31]

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    According to this it seems the gene is not related to Neanderthals. However, 23andme uses a genotype to see the posibilities for having red hair (I don't know if it's the same indicated here) and they don't take the genotype as determinant as for example the gene for light eyes. But well, if Wikipedia is not wrong like other times, it's the best clue right now.

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    I think I read on another forum that a particular area of West Asia has red hair frequencies higher than any European country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Moss View Post
    I think I read on another forum that a particular area of West Asia has red hair frequencies higher than any European country.

    Red hair was common among Jewish Khazars (Caucasus, southern Russia) as well as in some Turkish tribes. That's interesting since Neanderthals have been found as far east as Uzbekistan and even Siberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I think that the explanation is that the "West European" component actually represents mostly the genes of Paleolithic I1 and I2b Northern Europeans, and that they inhabited all northern Europe from Ireland and Britain to Russia and Ukraine before being replaced by R1a and R1b.
    it looks like European genetic (except for ydna) wasn't so much affected by the IE invasions since the main components in autosomal dna are pre-IE

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I pointed out [/URL]that this so-called "West European" cluster was generally higher than the East European one in North, Central and South Asia.
    so I1,I2b or European mtdna went as far as south/northern Asia during Paleolithic times?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Red hair was common among Jewish Khazars (Caucasus, southern Russia) as well as in some Turkish tribes. That's interesting since Neanderthals have been found as far east as Uzbekistan and even Siberia.
    Interesting points.

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    No red hair from Neanderthals in Europe, but posible in other places. Good spongetaro.

    To my knowledge, ethnic Europeans have more Neanderthal genes. However, I mantain that it could be enough with a few concrete genes and, of course, there is not much (or there isn't...) information about Neanderthal genes on those populations, and the same could be said of other West Asians.

    Some Ashkenazi Jews made the Interpretome test, but nothing relevant in them. Probably their samples are not useful for this.

    PD: I was suposing there is not relevant red hair between Ashkenazis, basically because it's difficult to average them since they are spread for all places and have to many different appearences.
    Last edited by Knovas; 19-07-11 at 11:31.

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    Due to the fact of which all the alive organisms we are related, it turns out to be easier to find kinships between species that them to deny. Between the man of neanderthal and the modern man, it is known that there exists a common ancestor of an antiquity of half a million years, but there have not contradicted itself categorically more recent genetic interferences (nevertheless, the empirical studies proliferate and seem to abound in the hypothesis of non-interference).

    I believe that the question that closes the previous paragraph (do the targets have a genetic heredity neandertal that other races do not possess?) she does not remain completely answered, but yes we can affirm that, in case of having inherited genes of the neandertal, we can be sure that they are scarce, without decisive influence in the fenotipo and proper of a limited part of the human population.

    Just in case, the homo scientiphicus, in most cases, of white race, has hurried to extoll recently the figure of the neandertal, his cranial capacity, his cultural habits, etc.

    Possibly, the neandertales were not red-haired, but big variety would exist already between them; what yes is an interesting hypothesis is that the gene of the red hair is only possible in lineages that have crossed with neandertales. The current red-haired ones are usually provided well with chin and lack, mostly, this side proper vision of the extinct prehistoric race. If really he was the principal progeny of the man of neandertal, that would mean that the form of the skull and the face have evolved rapidly in congruity with the nutritive habits. Nevertheless, there exist other Europeans who are not red-haired and who yes present some of the impressive facial characters of the original Europeans. It is not necessary to discard that certain European current features are a repetition in the homo sapiens of the adaptations who was enduring the homo erectus of Hidelberg on having become an European, happening for the homo antecessor up to the neanderthalensis. Nevertheless, it has not even had so much time, not even his ways of life and resources to adapt itself to the climate are the same than in the prehistoric times. Necessarily, the features "neandertaloides" that we find are a direct heredity of those characters.

    http://www.eumed.net/libros/2011a/91...neandertal.htm

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    The labels of components are arbitrary, it could have been called Northwestern European, since it peaks in Irish/Norwegians. In the Eurogenes intra-european run they are two separate components, northern and western european, the first peaking in Scandinavians and the second in Pyreneans/Catalans.

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    The Eurogenes Western European is an spurious cluster, note that there are only 4 indidviduals with 100% Western European, and the rest of people there is nobody who gets 50% of it. Of course the interpretation for the four individuals is an strong genetic Isolate in the Pyrenees, but this cluster is not informative for the rest of people, and neither tells so much about Northern and Southern proportions, although more or less can be infered. Only shows that there are 4 individuals very closer to each other, nothing else.

    Dodecad is not bad, in my opinion the problem is use only one cluster for Southern Europe (Mediterranean). 4 European clusters, East and West for the North and the South, would be enough to get something informative to see the origin of a population, and clarify the difference between Southern Europeans much more. Also there is the other problem in the averages, since I think populations recieve different results depending on the source, but this is less important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    http://blog.jattdna.org/?attachment_id=555

    This "West European" component is really weird. In the map, Sweden appears more Western than France and Spain. Spain appears as "Western" as the Belarus.
    What do you think?
    The map is incorrect, because Spaniards have 42 % of West-European, while Belorussians have 28%. This map is more accurate :


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