Phenotypes of the Greeks

[iapetoc]

They are perfect examples of what Coon called Dinaric-Mediterraneans (Mesocephals, long forehead, straight or convex nose, moderately tall, light to dark brown hair and eyes)

correct i could say that is the typical we search for greeks inland greeks,

but they are not that big forehead, comparing them with North Europeans,

as droutsas and geroulanos who are big-long forehead,

 

[iapetoc]

As for Egyptians or Moroccans looking Greek, I never said that. It would be the other way round. Some Greeks might look Egyptian (as the gene flow of E1b1b was principally from Egypt to Greece and not the other way round). As explained above with Russians and Siberians, most Greeks will look intermediary between the numerous people that mixed together in the history of Greece. The more mixed a population is, the lower the chances of finding an individual that will resemble one of the original phenotypes. But out of 10 million people there surely are quite a few of them for each of the founding populations.

hmmm
considering that last Greek left Alexandreia at 1950 about (Nasser times)
and starting era is Ptolemaios we talk about 2250 years of Greek existance in egypt
no matter the slaughts at roman-christian times,
the Greeks of Alexandreia estimated to be 150-220 000 at 1950 and about 400 000 at 1860 !!!!
why it does not work and around, to find egyprian look like greeks.

 

[oreo_cookie]

I have seen Greeks (and south Italians for that matter) who looked Armenian or Lebanese, but never any Greeks who looked typically North African.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I have seen Greeks (and south Italians for that matter) who looked Armenian or Lebanese, but never any Greeks who looked typically North African.

I agree, even in the islands you don't find standard N. African phenotypes. Levantine types are encountered much more in the islands and dinarics in the north, IMO.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I have not been to Egypt, so I can not think of that country, but I visited once Morocco, It was a country that I did not like, but I have to admit that there were a lot of Moroccans who could pass for natives of southern Europe. It's logical because only 14 km separate the northern coast of Morocco to the south of Europe.

Only endogomous descendants of the original Berbers (Amazigh, Kyble) could pass for native European. These people today make up a small percentage (20%?) of N. Africa's population. There is absolutely no genetic clustering between N. Africans and Europeans.

In Italy and, particularly in S. Spain, individuals with a resemblance to Moroccans are either immigrants or gypsies (full and, in a few cases, mixed). Genetic studies show quite well that North African gene transfer into S. Europe has been minimal and generally very old (Mesolithic / Paleolithic).

 

[Knovas]

Sometimes people confuse a very Southern/Mediterranean type with a non European group. I can understand it (except on those with a clear agenda), but just search for Basque pictures, a population with one of the highest European averages (near 100%), and you'll find many examples of what I say.

 

[archaiocapilos]

Sometimes people confuse a very Southern/Mediterranean type with a non European group. I can understand it (except on those with a clear agenda), but just search for Basque pictures, a population with one of the highest European averages (near 100%), and you'll find many examples of what I say.

True, a lot of Basques resemble Dinaric-Meds allthough they have 90% R1b1b2a1. That's why I'm saying that Y-DNA haplogroups do not correlate with phenotype, while Autosomal analysis does... Portugese who have as much as 60% R1b1b2a1 often look darker than Greeks (don't take that as an offense, I'm just trying to prove my point) while Albanians who have the largest percentage of E1b1b in Europe are lighter than most Greeks or South Italians...

 

[oreo_cookie]

I don't think the Portuguese are much different than Greeks pigmentation wise. Facial features are the difference (with the Portuguese being more akin to Atlantic populations)

 

[archaiocapilos]

That haplogroups don't correlate with phenotype (especially when there is a founder effect) is obvious in the case of Bashkirs (they have as much as 80% R1b1a2 with some R1b1a2a1a-W/European) but look Central/East Asian instead.
Or in the case of Tungusic speakers who have a lot of R1a1 but look totally Mongoloid...
Finally if R1b1a2 is of Middle Eastern origin modern West Europeans actually resemble their native mothers instead of their West Asian fathers...Iapetoc must be right about people inheriting their looks by the female line.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Only autosomal DNA (full ancestry) influences phenotype. Haplogroups are useful in providing information on ancient migrations, primarily.

Native population groups occupying the Atlantic Fringe tend to have similar features, with some variation in skin tone, from region to region.

 

[archaiocapilos]

I don't think the Portuguese are much different than Greeks pigmentation wise. Facial features are the difference (with the Portuguese being more akin to Atlantic populations)

I know that but if E1b1b correlated with darker skin, Greeks and Albanians should be a lot darker than Spaniards or Portuguese (which is not true)...In fact Turks and Kurds should be lighter than Czechs or Austrians if E1b1b correlated with N.African phenotype...

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I know that but if E1b1b correlated with darker skin, Greeks and Albanians should be a lot darker than Spaniards or Portuguese (which is not true)...In fact Turks and Kurds should be lighter than Czechs or Austrians if E1b1b correlated with N.African phenotype...

But there are also many Albanians who are darker than Greeks or other Europeans.

We need to keep in mind that genes behave randomly and are also influence by environmental factors over time.

 

[Maciamo]

hmmm
considering that last Greek left Alexandreia at 1950 about (Nasser times)
and starting era is Ptolemaios we talk about 2250 years of Greek existance in egypt
no matter the slaughts at roman-christian times,
the Greeks of Alexandreia estimated to be 150-220 000 at 1950 and about 400 000 at 1860 !!!!
why it does not work and around, to find egyprian look like greeks.

Most of the Greeks left Egypt. They surely contributed some genes to the Egyptian gene pool, but based on Y-DNA statistics not much. Anyway, what are a few tens or hundreds of thousands people in a country of over 80 million inhabitants ?

 

[Maciamo]

In Italy and, particularly in S. Spain, individuals with a resemblance to Moroccans are either immigrants or gypsies (full and, in a few cases, mixed). Genetic studies show quite well that North African gene transfer into S. Europe has been minimal and generally very old (Mesolithic / Paleolithic).

What studies, for example ?

 

[Knovas]

I've seen also Basques who seem to have quite non European admixture, although sure they don't. That was the main reason of my post. There are lots of Mediterranean forms, some of them even difficult to imagine. Sometimes phisical appearence lies, we have examples in very different populations.

Another reason to throw down the trash absurd clown-agendas.

 

[Maciamo]

Only autosomal DNA (full ancestry) influences phenotype. Haplogroups are useful in providing information on ancient migrations, primarily.

In the case of Greece, Dienekes did a pretty good job showing how haplogroup frequencies match fairly well autosomal percentages. Here are the autosomal percentages from the K=12 admixtures from the Dodecad Project for the Greek members :

- West European : 13% (matches the 12% of R1b)
- East European : 12% (matches the 12% of R1a)
- West Asian : 25% (matches the 25% of J2)
- Mediterranean : 43.5%
- Southwest Asian : 5.5%
- North & East African : 0.5%

Mediterranean is a very wide and ambiguous category, that is found at high levels (between 25% and 50%) from populations as diverse and unrelated as the Moroccans, Portuguese, Basques, Italians, Hungarians, Turks, Lebanese and Iraqis. Moroccans are almost exclusively E1b1b, while Basques are R1b, Sardinians mostly I2a1 and G2a, and Iraqis are predominantly J1 and J2. In the Greeks, it surely includes most of the I2 and E1b1b, and perhaps also some G2a and J2. The Southwest Asian component would include J1, T and some E1b1b.

In any case, even Egyptians have 23% of Mediterranean. There is no data for Tunisians and Algerians, but I am sure it is over 25%. It would be interesting to try to split this Mediterranean element in order to differentiate the E1b1b+T+J1 admixture from the I2a+G2a. I wouldn't be surprised if Greeks were about half-half for each, probably with a slight bias towards the former. Everything else matches...

 

[Maciamo]

That haplogroups don't correlate with phenotype (especially when there is a founder effect) is obvious in the case of Bashkirs (they have as much as 80% R1b1a2 with some R1b1a2a1a-W/European) but look Central/East Asian instead.
Or in the case of Tungusic speakers who have a lot of R1a1 but look totally Mongoloid...
Finally if R1b1a2 is of Middle Eastern origin modern West Europeans actually resemble their native mothers instead of their West Asian fathers...Iapetoc must be right about people inheriting their looks by the female line.

Haplogroup R1a and R1b are exceptions because their carriers have higher sperm count than other haplogroups, which predisposes them to father more boys and consequently replace other haplogroups pretty fast, especially when they enter populations with a high percentage of low-sperm-count haplogroups (such as Q, which might have been the original dominant haplogroup of the Bashkirs and many Tungusic people).

 

[Knovas]

The case of Greece is one case, and I don't think it's posible to get serious conclusions since the Mediterranean cluster it's too general. As I said in other posts, it's enough dividing the Mediterranean/Southern European cluster like the Northern European one (West and East), to see how different are Iberians and Southern French from Greeks and Italians (Specially Central and Southern Italians).

Looking at different Eurogenes runs where French, Spaniards, Greeks, and Italians are included, it's perfectly observable that the allele frequencies are definetely different between West and East side.

No determinant match between haplogroups and full admixture. At least, the aplication is not valid for all populations.

PD: It's important to keep in mind that when we talk about the Moroccan, Greek, Egyptian, Spanish, French, Algerian...or wherever Mediterranean cluster in those populations, we are NOT refering to the same but, of course, it's similar.

 

[archaiocapilos]

- West European : 13% (matches the 12% of R1b)
- East European : 12% (matches the 12% of R1a)
- West Asian : 25% (matches the 25% of J2)
- Mediterranean : 43.5%
- Southwest Asian : 5.5%
- North & East African : 0.5%

Actually Greek Y-DNA is a little different than what Eupedia says so I created an other thread with all available data about Greek Y-chromosomes...
I think that if haplogroup frequencies equalled autosomal percentages Armenians would score 25% West European and Kurds would score 25% East European which is not the case...after all you once claimed that R1a in Greece is of Slavic AND Central Asian extraction (but Greeks have almost zero Central Asian percentage...)
West European 13% = 4% (R1b-U152) + 4% (I1) + 2% (I2a2) and some of R1b1a2a-L23
East European 12% = 4% (R1a1a1a7) + some of (I2a1b) + some of R1a1a
West Asian 25% = most of J2a + 6% (G2a) + the rest of R1b1a2a-L23
Mediterranean 43% = 19 % (E1b1b1a) + the rest of (J2a + I2a1b) + 3% (J2b2) + 3% (LT)
SW Asian 5.5% = 4% (J1) + 2% (E1b1b1c)

 

[iapetoc]

Most of the Greeks left Egypt. They surely contributed some genes to the Egyptian gene pool, but based on Y-DNA statistics not much. Anyway, what are a few tens or hundreds of thousands people in a country of over 80 million inhabitants ?

:grin:

I don't know but 2250 surely is a big number,
and if we consider the older Avaris we go 3000,

they left some marks or they massacred at christian and later islamic times,

simply we are not yet able to see them,

on the other hand I believe that this could an evidence of another thread, of working class Douloi,
if the Greek Makedonian winners had sclaves for sexual and spread kids like wheat, surely they change a lot the icon of gennetics in Egypt,
so Greek probably had another theory aproach than Romans