Phenotypes of the Greeks

[spongetaro]

Mediterranean is a very wide and ambiguous category, that is found at high levels (between 25% and 50%) from populations as diverse and unrelated as the Moroccans, Portuguese, Basques, Italians, Hungarians, Turks, Lebanese and Iraqis. Moroccans are almost exclusively E1b1b, while Basques are R1b, Sardinians mostly I2a1 and G2a, and Iraqis are predominantly J1 and J2. In the Greeks, it surely includes most of the I2 and E1b1b, and perhaps also some G2a and J2.

Orcadians also have a strong med component, Dienekes says that it could be a reminder of the megalithic builders

Norwegians:
West: 68%
Med: 15%
East: 10%

Brits:
West: 66%
Med: 22%
East: 3%

Irish:
West: 68%
Med: 20%
East: 2%

Orcadian: (Suposed to be Norwegian/British mixed)
West: 56%
Med: 25%
East: 11%

 

[oreo_cookie]

I can't imagine you can judge autosomal frequencies solely by y-dna because you have to factor the mtdna into the equation.. BUT since mtdna frequencies tend to be much more consistent throughout Europe than y-dna overall with some exceptions, it does give you a basis for understanding.

 

[Wilhelm]

What studies, for example ?

Like this one from Duanloup et al. 2004 :

" [FONT=&quot]A European wide study including Spaniards states: No significant correlation is apparent between North African admixture and geography. Genetic exchanges across the Mediterranean Sea, and especially in its western-most part where the geographic distance between continents is smallest (Spain), seem to have been limited or very limited, establishing the North African contribution at between 2.5% and 3.4%.[/FONT]"

 

[Wilhelm]

True, a lot of Basques resemble Dinaric-Meds allthough they have 90% R1b1b2a1. That's why I'm saying that Y-DNA haplogroups do not correlate with phenotype, while Autosomal analysis does... Portugese who have as much as 60% R1b1b2a1 often look darker than Greeks (don't take that as an offense, I'm just trying to prove my point) while Albanians who have the largest percentage of E1b1b in Europe are lighter than most Greeks or South Italians...

Do you realize that in the study of Jablonski-Chaplin et al. the Spaniards from Le?n (which is near Portugal) had a skintone as light as other Western Europeans ?

 

[Maciamo]

Actually Greek Y-DNA is a little different than what Eupedia says so I created an other thread with all available data about Greek Y-chromosomes...
I think that if haplogroup frequencies equalled autosomal percentages Armenians would score 25% West European and Kurds would score 25% East European which is not the case...after all you once claimed that R1a in Greece is of Slavic AND Central Asian extraction (but Greeks have almost zero Central Asian percentage...)
West European 13% = 4% (R1b-U152) + 4% (I1) + 2% (I2a2) and some of R1b1a2a-L23
East European 12% = 4% (R1a1a1a7) + some of (I2a1b) + some of R1a1a
West Asian 25% = most of J2a + 6% (G2a) + the rest of R1b1a2a-L23
Mediterranean 43% = 19 % (E1b1b1a) + the rest of (J2a + I2a1b) + 3% (J2b2) + 3% (LT)
SW Asian 5.5% = 4% (J1) + 2% (E1b1b1c)

Thanks for the the update on the frequencies. I hadn't seen the King et al. study of 2011 yet, but anyway the data for Greece itself is the same as King et al. 2007. (I had a brief look at the new study and am appalled by their methodology though, as they test modern samples from Provence and call them Neolithic just because the people tested live near Neolithic sites !! Unbelievable).

Where did I ever claim that R1a in Greece was of Central Asian extraction ? I was referring to the Balkans, but to Central Asian tribes like the Bulgars, who didn't really settle in Greece (except perhaps a bit in the far north).

Where did you find the data about R1a and R1b subclades in Greece ?

Otherwise your association of autosomal DNA with Y-haplogroups seems fair.

 

[Wilhelm]

In the case of Greece, Dienekes did a pretty good job showing how haplogroup frequencies match fairly well autosomal percentages. Here are the autosomal percentages from the K=12 admixtures from the Dodecad Project for the Greek members :

- West European : 13% (matches the 12% of R1b)
- East European : 12% (matches the 12% of R1a)
- West Asian : 25% (matches the 25% of J2)
- Mediterranean : 43.5%
- Southwest Asian : 5.5%
- North & East African : 0.5%

Mediterranean is a very wide and ambiguous category, that is found at high levels (between 25% and 50%) from populations as diverse and unrelated as the Moroccans, Portuguese, Basques, Italians, Hungarians, Turks, Lebanese and Iraqis. Moroccans are almost exclusively E1b1b, while Basques are R1b, Sardinians mostly I2a1 and G2a, and Iraqis are predominantly J1 and J2. In the Greeks, it surely includes most of the I2 and E1b1b, and perhaps also some G2a and J2. The Southwest Asian component would include J1, T and some E1b1b.

In any case, even Egyptians have 23% of Mediterranean. There is no data for Tunisians and Algerians, but I am sure it is over 25%. It would be interesting to try to split this Mediterranean element in order to differentiate the E1b1b+T+J1 admixture from the I2a+G2a. I wouldn't be surprised if Greeks were about half-half for each, probably with a slight bias towards the former. Everything else matches...

Maciamo, do you realize that Swedes and Norwegians have more SouthwestAsian (2.0 %) than Spaniards (1.8% )

 

[Maciamo]

Like this one from Duanloup et al. 2004 :

" [FONT=&quot]A European wide study including Spaniards states: No significant correlation is apparent between North African admixture and geography. Genetic exchanges across the Mediterranean Sea, and especially in its western-most part where the geographic distance between continents is smallest (Spain), seem to have been limited or very limited, establishing the North African contribution at between 2.5% and 3.4%.[/FONT]"

OK, but where does it say that the North African contribution dates from the Neolithic or Paleolithic ? This is the part I am interested in, as I am not aware of any study testing pre-Neolithic Y-DNA in Iberia, and the ancient mtDNA we have doesn't look North African at all (haplogroups U and H).

 

[Maciamo]

Orcadians also have a strong med component, Dienekes says that it could be a reminder of the megalithic builders

Yes, I agree. Megalithic builders were surely predominantly I2 and G2a. A lot of those genes seem to have survived through the maternal side, as most of the Neolithic Y-DNA was wiped out by R1b in the Atlantic fringe of Europe.

 

[Knovas]

Interesting points Wilheim.

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, do you realize that Swedes and Norwegians have more SouthwestAsian (2.0 %) than Spaniards (1.8% )

I don't see the relevance about Greece, but it is true that it is surprising to find so much Southwest Asian in Swedes and Norwegians, especially since the Dutch and Germans only have 1.5% of it. I wonder if there is a link to the high percentage of mtDNA J in Scandinavia.

 

[Wilhelm]

I have not been to Egypt, so I can not think of that country, but I visited once Morocco, It was a country that I did not like, but I have to admit that there were a lot of Moroccans who could pass for natives of southern Europe. It's logical because only 14 km separate the northern coast of Morocco to the south of Europe.

Any Spaniard (or person who has been some time in Spain) perfectly knows that Moroccans are completely different, and are so easy to distinguish.

 

[archaiocapilos]

Where did you find the data about R1a and R1b subclades in Greece ?

Otherwise your association of autosomal DNA with Y-haplogroups seems fair.

I got it through Dieneke's site (I don't remember the name of the paper)...but it said that Greeks have around 4.0% R1b-U152 (equally distributed around mainland, while 6-7% in Crete) and 7% R1a1a1a7 in Macedonia in contrast to 3.5% in Central-South Greece and 2-3% in Crete.

 

[archaiocapilos]

Thanks for the the update on the frequencies. I hadn't seen the King et al. study of 2011 yet, but anyway the data for Greece itself is the same as King et al. 2007. (I had a brief look at the new study and am appalled by their methodology though, as they test modern samples from Provence and call them Neolithic just because the people tested live near Neolithic sites !! Unbelievable).

Actually King et.al paper of 2011 typed new sub-clades (like E-M81, I2*, I2a2, J2a4h, R1b1a2) for mainland Greeks too, so it gave us a better picture of Greek Y-DNA. I think that you should change data about Greeks in Eupedia and if you like the way I divide regions
you should keep it the same in your tables (for all regions to have more than 100 samples)
BTW I used Rootsi's paper about Y-DNA haplogroup I in Greece combined with the papers of Battaglia and King who typed all sub-clades of it...the same way I used Di Giacomo's paper : Y chromosomal haplogroup J as a signature of the post-neolithic
colonization of Europe (combined with the above papers) to clarify J2a and J2b frequencies.

 

[julia90]

typical faces of the Balkans

people with similar looks:
Southern Italians, Bulgarians, Albanians, italians, western turks, Romanians, Serbians... less so Croatians and obviously slovenian who have different looks in my opinion

googling greek actress and actors

 

[julia90]

to Greek Forumers:
Does this italian actress look greek?

does him (in my opinion he has less of an ethnic look)?

 

[julia90]

Greek young school parade, we get to see common look among greeks.. i must say that they resemble italians a lot, obviously calabreses and sicilians the most due to ancient colonies... btw also in italy we have Liceums and Gymnasius

 

[zanipolo]

to Greek Forumers:
Does this italian actress look greek?

does him (in my opinion he has less of an ethnic look)?

top girl looks swabian from Germany

and 3rd photo guy , looks slovenian from gorz

 

[julia90]

I agree :-D

 

[Antigone]

Well I can think of arguments against all those photos,

Using football or basketball etc teams do not give a good overall example, unless the teams are smaller local teams as the larger clubs all have foreign players in their teams.

Actors, actresses and models are the more likely to have had their features surgically altered and hair colour changed than anyone. Their photos are also always airbrushed and digitally enhanced to make them look more attractive than they really are.

School parades are not great either as an example for an entire population, they are an indication of one small area only. Like Italy, Greeks differ in looks regionally. The people vary from taller, shorter, darker, fairer depending on the region, and then there are all the islands, each with their own individual characteristics.

But most of all I dislike these phenotype threads because, as ever, they are massive and sweeping generalisations. Taking a handful of photos and applying those people to an entire and varied population doesn't make a great deal of sense.

 

[Eldritch]

Greeks are mainly Mediterranid with strong Alpine presence