Phenotypes of the Greeks

Phenotypically, Greeks are predominately Dinaric and SE Med with some Levantine elements.
 
archaiocapilos said:
I got it through Dieneke's site (I don't remember the name of the paper)...but it said that Greeks have around 4.0% R1b-U152 (equally distributed around mainland, while 6-7% in Crete) and 7% R1a1a1a7 in Macedonia in contrast to 3.5% in Central-South Greece and 2-3% in Crete.
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Re phenotypes: It's autosomal markers that count. Haplogroups only have value in tracing primal ancestry (very insignificant in phenotypic construction).
 
This must be the most amusing post in this site ever! Pictures of Greek politicians and discussions of haplogroups.. This is fun!! The main point here I guess is that indeed Greeks have quite heterogenous phenotypes, maybe a bit more than other European populations? Definitely more heterogenous than British or Scandinavians and even Iberians. For Italians I am not sure, as they as well present heterogenous phenotypes. I agree with most posts that any non-European phenotype in Greece looks more Levantine/Jewish rather than north African, but still certain north Africans have Levantine ancestry so the phenotypical distinction is not that clear. Regarding the Greek politicians, I would say that all of them will definitely pass for Europeans and none of those would pass as north African. We could do a little survey. Remove the names and post them online asking for ethnic origin.. Just a note on Dimitrios Droutsas. Maciamo was right in assigning him a north western European admixture but this of course is not due to the fact that he was born in Cyprus as Maciamo speculated.. There is absolutely no evidence of ANY British admixture in the Cypriot gene pool (the British were in Cyprus just for 80 years and only a few hundreds of them - just the administration). The guy just happens to have a German mother. I quote from his Wikipedia page: "Droutsas was born on August 5, 1968 in Nicosia, Cyprus as the son of a Greek father and a German mother from Frankfurt am Main". There are Greeks looking like him however with purely Greek ancestry. It is not surprising at all, looking at the relatively high frequencies of R1b in some regions of Greece. I do however agree that haplogroups cannot determine clearly a phenotype. For example, I am Greek Cypriot and R1a, but I am not blonde with blue eyes, or anything like that..
 
What a gay thread this is
 
Greeks to me look like a mixture of Sicilians and Balkan Slavs. Some leaning more toward Sicilians, others leaning more toward Bulgarians and the rest of the Balkans. The more "Levantine" looking Greeks overlap with Sicilians too since Sicily also has a strong Neolithic/Levantine influence, but Greece also has more recent influence from other Balkan countries including some people with "Slavic" looks.

There are also some Greeks who look pan-Southern European, and could fit anywhere from Portugal to Cyprus.
 
in few words: OK for saying Greeks are phenotypically heterogenous, even if dark europoids dominate - just looking (in past) at the cephallic index show us western Greece was almost brachycephallic when eastern Greece was mesocephallic - every kind of look can be seen among Greeks, even some 'nordic' and 'east-baltic' looking ones (but rare) - Greeks are tall enough as a whole, and the "panel" of faces they show includes surely AND 'alpine' types AND 'dinaric' types (more in West) whatever the combination of genes leading to this situation - old true bedwin tribes showed a general 'mediterranean' looks that took part in the formation of your "levantine" types and others (the major part of the south-saharian mixture among them is very recent) - I recall too that Iraqis, even if less heterogenous than other levantine population, are nevertheless far to be a pure arabic (bedwin) population
every population around mediterranea and the remnant of Europe show heterogenous phenotypes, more or less, what is not saying they present the same mixtures - and yes, among north Maroccans you can find every kind of 'mediterranean' look, with OR without south-saharian influences, someones can pass for Spaniards!
&: there is no direct link between Y or mt HGs with phenotypes but it is still interesting examining the percentages of them among a population, and compare to variety of phenotypes, because paternal and maternal heritage of these Hgs go along statistically with transmission of biallelic autosomals genes too... just for the fun; I think the biggest discrepancy would be between autosomals and Y-HGs because male elite drifts occurred very often in past, for I suppose
 
In responding to OP I find it fascinating when people are called X - let's say the X means Arabic then it assumed as Anti-G. Am I with the G If I say your people resemble the Scandinavians or something else so this do you a favor because I say things that somehow effect a pleasurable emotional detachment in your mind, while I didn't say anything remotely different than the quoted person, just a different subject. It says a lot about you - Calling it racist may sound offensive but you negatively discriminate people of Arab descent and think it's Anti-G to mention something that against your opinion or ideas. It would be an insult to me if they call my mother a whore, yes but it's personal and I take it off as ignorance from someone. If they call my mother as British or Arab or whatever I take it neutrally given I don't find anything offensive because it's his personal experience - whether his knowledge is limited and that's the only thing he knows - let's say some people can't differentiate Turks from Saudis - in that case that person will automatically call anyone as Arab because he doesn't have a clue of what he talks about
 
Antigone said:
Well I can think of arguments against all those photos,

Using football or basketball etc teams do not give a good overall example, unless the teams are smaller local teams as the larger clubs all have foreign players in their teams.

Actors, actresses and models are the more likely to have had their features surgically altered and hair colour changed than anyone. Their photos are also always airbrushed and digitally enhanced to make them look more attractive than they really are.

School parades are not great either as an example for an entire population, they are an indication of one small area only. Like Italy, Greeks differ in looks regionally. The people vary from taller, shorter, darker, fairer depending on the region, and then there are all the islands, each with their own individual characteristics.

But most of all I dislike these phenotype threads because, as ever, they are massive and sweeping generalisations. Taking a handful of photos and applying those people to an entire and varied population doesn't make a great deal of sense.
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Greeks arent varied in phenotype as you may think. We are mainly Dinaric, Med, Alpine with some baltic and nordic minorities.

Anything else, isnt Greek, but rather a foreign element

Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
mtDNA: U5b2a
 
Tutkun Arnaut said:
Greeks do not have a unified look according to me. One finds there elements from really dark (south Indian type) to blond and blue eyes, and anything in between. Its illogical to expect a Greek look when over 20 other ethnic groups are recorded to have ventured in Greece. I am mentioning few of them: Albanians, Slavs, Turks, Goths, Catalans, Venetians, Persians, Egyptians, Gypsies, Huns, Avars, Romans, Bulgarss. They contributed in Greeks gene pool in different percentages. There is a large Greek presence in NY City. But its hard to distinguish them from other emigrants. They own many Dinners in New York area. Trade oriented people in general. 80% I would say are white, southern type. The only people who can be distinguished in New York are Kosovo+Northern Albanians to a certain degree.

What I am amazed with Greeks is not their look, is the Nazi Party they have in Parliament. Their main leader is either Turk or a Gypsie
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You better stop it with the provocations. I know for a fact you hate gypsies, and use it as a means to denigrate people. You know ZERO about populations genetics, and distinguishing phenotypes.
 
Jovialis said:
You better stop it with the provocations. I know for a fact you hate gypsies, and use it as a means to denigrate people. You know ZERO about populations genetics, and distinguishing phenotypes.
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where is the provocation, explain to me?
 
Generally Northern Greeks like Macedonians and Thessalians have more South Slavic, Balkan looking types while the Islands and Pontic Greeks have more Anatolian, Eastern Mediterranean leaning types.
 
Peloponnesian Greeks are primarily Atlanto Meds, Alpine Meds and Dinarics. Nothing more, nothing less. The earlier posts on this thread are ridiculous and uninformed (and actually pretty embarrassing).
 
If you saw my father or my younger sister, you would never think we were Greeks. Blond, blue gray eyes. Or my cousins on my mother's side, one of which was a total ginger. But my mother, and my other sister and I, we do have that maybe Greek maybe Armenian maybe European looking Persian (I had a very light haired, blue eyed Persian friend :)).
 
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Well, I do not know if anyone will take into account what I say, but my opinion and not only mine is that the most original Greek physical types are found among the aromanians vlachs, the native Greek population of mainland Greece, especially prevalent in the past very much in Epir, Macedonia, Thessaly, Central Greece and Peloponnese even some islands. Many Aromanians mingled with the Slavs and West Asians / Levantines.


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Balkan1992 said:
Well, I do not know if anyone will take into account what I say, but my opinion and not only mine is that the most original Greek physical types are found among the aromanians vlachs, the native Greek population of mainland Greece, especially prevalent in the past very much in Epir, Macedonia, Thessaly, Central Greece and Peloponnese even some islands. Many Aromanians mingled with the Slavs and West Asians / Levantines.


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You have chosen people of very different types.

Over and beyond that, how do you know what the "original" Greeks looked like? In what time period did the "original" Greeks live? Is it the Mycenaean period, the Classical period, or what?

This is what some Mycenaeans looked like from the evidence of a fresco in the tomb of one of them. Their pigmentation snps match this, with the fact that warriors were always portrayed with a tan.Some of your examples don't look anything like that.
mycenaean-griffin-warrior-face-reconstructed_1.jpg



Plus, it may be more logical to guess that the most "original" Greek looking people would be those living in areas with the least "Slavic" admixture, yet you include areas like Thessaly and Macedonia?

The Greeks with the least such admixture in mainland Greece would seem to be the people from the Southern Peloponnese according to genetic analysis.

Start at 15.37

 
Angela said:
You have chosen people of very different types.

Over and beyond that, how do you know what the "original" Greeks looked like? In what time period did the "original" Greeks live? Is it the Mycenaean period, the Classical period, or what?

This is what some Mycenaeans looked like from the evidence of a fresco in the tomb of one of them. Their pigmentation snps match this, with the fact that warriors were always portrayed with a tan.Some of your examples don't look anything like that.
mycenaean-griffin-warrior-face-reconstructed_1.jpg



Plus, it may be more logical to guess that the most "original" Greek looking people would be those living in areas with the least "Slavic" admixture, yet you include areas like Thessaly and Macedonia?

The Greeks with the least such admixture in mainland Greece would seem to be the people from the Southern Peloponnese according to genetic analysis.

Start at 15.37

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I do not know what big differences you have seen in the people I post, but you must know the majority that in times of time in the Greek territory (Byzantine and Ottoman later) the Aromanians were a significant population, including the Peloponnese, but they were elected through the Church, the Aromanians themselves have always supported Greece and Hellenism. The majority of Aromanians resembled physically, because in the past they rarely interfered with other nations practicing endogamy, having a protobalcanic physical type, unlike other Greek inhabitants who have Slavic or Turkish influences.
 
Balkan1992 said:
I do not know what big differences you have seen in the people I post, but you must know the majority that in times of time in the Greek territory (Byzantine and Ottoman later) the Aromanians were a significant population, including the Peloponnese, but they were elected through the Church, the Aromanians themselves have always supported Greece and Hellenism. The majority of Aromanians resembled physically, because in the past they rarely interfered with other nations practicing endogamy, having a protobalcanic physical type, unlike other Greek inhabitants who have Slavic or Turkish influences.
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I can't imagine a Greek with Turkish influences physically.
 
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