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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

  1. #251
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    8 out of 8 members found this post helpful.
    I previously posted about V13/CTS5856. Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.

    All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

    I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1530 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1530 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples from the other phases that I mapped to the SNP's of the main phase (total n=1530). I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).


    Levels over all of Greece:
    C-M130 0,4%
    E-M215 24,7%
    G-M201 8,1%
    I-M170 2,3% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
    I1-M253 2,2%
    I2-P37 8,4%
    I2-M223 1,5%
    J1-M267 4,5%
    J2-M172 17,3%
    L-M20 1%
    N-M231 0,5%
    Q-L232 0,6%
    R1a-L63 9,9%
    R1b-M343 15%
    T-M170 3,1%


    Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
    For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.

    C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos

    E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

    G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (20%), Pontic Greeks (19%), the Dodecanese (18%), Crete (13%), the Ionian Islands (11%) Asia Minor (11%), North Aegean Islands (12%), Cyprus (16%). Lower in Thessaly (4%), Athens (4%), central Aegean islands (2%), on the Peloponessos (2-6%), Central mainland (2%), Epirus (3%).

    I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (9%) and in Thessaly (6%)

    I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (9%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.

    I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1%), Crete (4%), Athens (6%), the central Aegean Islands (4%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (4%), High in Arcadia (21%), Greek Macedon (14%), Thessaly (13%), Epirus (20%), the Northern Pelopenessos (25%), Thesaloniki (14%), Asia Minor (11%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)

    J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (12%), the Dodecanese (11%), central Aegean Islands (8%), Istanbul (11%), the central mainland (10%), on Cyprus (10%), in Arcadia (6%) and Crete (6%). It's low in Asia minor (2%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (1%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (4%)

    J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (9%), Central mainland (7%), Greek Macedonia (10%), Dodecanese (11%), Epirus (13%), the Ionian islands (13%), higher in Cyprus (23%), Crete (29%), Athens (20%), Arcadia (23%), Pontic Greeks (26%), Istanbul 22%, Thesaloniki (25%) and the Central Aegean islands (27%)

    L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.

    R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (4%), Cyprus (6%), Crete (5%), Arcadia (6%), the Pontic Greeks (5%), Dodecanese (0%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (17%), Thessaly (15%), Epirus (13%), Central mainland (14%), Athens (14%), Thesaloniki (14%), the central Aegean Islands (12%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (18%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently), and than the Southern Pelopenessos samples would represent the earlier 6th-8th century Slavic settlement. However that doesn't seem to fit well with the distribution of R1b, which is also high in Albanians.

    R1b-M343: low on Cyprus (8%), the Ionian Islands (6%), the central Aegean islands (14%), The pelopenessos (9-15%), high in the central mainland (29%), the Dodecanese (21%), Greek Macedonia (22%). The distribution underneath R1b: L151 is surprisingly high at 27,5%, V88 7,5%, PF7562 2,5%, CTS7822 37,5%, M269 (xPF7562 xL151, xCTS7822) 22,5%. It appears the non-L151 R1b is especially present in Greek Macedonia, Central mainland, Thessaly and Thesaloniki. The rest is a mixed picture. The L151 is very diverse, which might suggest it has a rather late date (medieval from the time of the crusades/Venetians?)

    T-M70: higher on Cyprus (5,6%), Crete (5,6%), Asia Minor (5,6%), the Ionian islands (5,8%), Epirus (9,4%)

    I also compared the results to some other studies about Greece with a regional breakdown:
    1. Voskarides et al (2016) has details on Cyprus. The results are very much in line with Genographic, with one big exception: J2 is 33,4% in Voskarides and 23,6% in Genographic. E-M215, J1 and R1a are slightly higher in Genographic, T1 is at 5,6% in Genographic but absent is Voskarides. None of it has any effects on the above conclusions. Intersting is the E-M215 breakdown: only 7% is V13.

    2.The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily, Tofanelli et al., 2015. This study has info on two Greek regions: Euboea (n=93) and Corinthia (n=104). Neither of them coincide well with one of the regions I used (and the numbers for Corinthia and euboea alone are to small to be relevant). Looking at E-M215 the Euboea results are lower and match those for Athens and the central and northern Aegean Islands, while Corinth is closer to Thessaly and the Peloponessos. Both are very low on G-M201, but G-P15 is very high in Euboea, the only comparable region is Cyprus. From the I-group I2-M223 is high on Euboa, this seems to be the case also in Genographic for this region and Attica (although samples are limited). The study also tests I2-M423, and the closest proxy in the genographic project is I-P37. As can be expected (given the Slavic origin that was presumed) levels are very low in Euboea and moderately high in Corinth. J1 is low in both, J2 is far higher in Euboea than any other region of Greece, and normal in Corinth. Levels of R1a are surprisingly high in both. Looking at E-M215 V13 is very dominant.

    3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean, King et.al, 2011. Confirms some Genographic observations like the high levels of V13 in Thessaly and the higher level of G in Asia minor. Phokaia seems to match Attica and Euboea for I-M223. I-M253 is surprisingly high in Asia minor (that was also seen in the Genographic samples, to a lesser extent). Also conclusions for I-P37 seem to be confirmed. Remarkable are the high levels of R1b in Asia minor, in contrast with the very low value in Sesklo/Dimini (although Genographic also found low amounts in Thessaly).

    4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects, Di Giaccomo et.al, 2003. This one is harder to compare due to the older way of designating and testing Haplogroups used in this study. Surprising in any case is the low value for DE in Larisa and Agrinion.

    I also prepared a table of the remaining groups if I remove I1, I2-P37 and R1a as supposed later arrivals, so this might be closer to the 'classical' situation:

    7CW4d04.jpg

    This post is probably growing too long again. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I know there are a lot of people who here who know much more than me about this region and these haplogroups and who will be far more capable of interpreting these results.
    Last edited by rafc; 30-11-16 at 12:46. Reason: Some minor corrections

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I previously posted about V13/CTS5856. Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.

    All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

    I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1531 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1531 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples that couldn't be determined deeper than "Greek". I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).


    Levels over all of Greece:
    C-M130 0,53-0,54%
    E-M215 24-25%
    G-M201 6,2-6,4%
    G-P15 1,6-2%
    I-M170 1-2% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
    I1-M253 1-2,3%
    I2-P37 8-9%
    I2-M223 1,7%
    J1-M267 4,3-4,6%
    J2-M172 16,4-16,5%
    L-M20 0,53-0,83%
    N-M231 0,53-0,63%
    Q-L232 0,5-1,6%
    R1a-L63 8-9,8%
    R1b-M343 15-19,7%
    T-M170 2,1-3,5%


    Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
    For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.

    C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos

    E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (36%) and the Peloponessos (32-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 22%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (28%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (25%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (25%). Slightly lower on the Dodecanese (23%), the central Aegean Islands (23%), Athens (18,1%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16,4) and Thesaloniki (19%). It's significantly lower in the northern Aegean Islands (17,6%), the Pontic Greeks (15,6%) and Crete (9,9%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

    G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (16,7%), Pontic Greeks (15,63%), the Dodecanese (13,64%), Istanbul (10%), Crete (9,9%), the Ionian Islands (9,6%) Asia Minor (8,9%), North Aegean Islands (8,9%), Thesaloniki (7,4%), Cyprus (6,9%). Lower in Thessaly (4,8%), Athens (4,6%), Greek Macedon (4,4%), central Aegean islands (2,6%), on the Peloponessos (2,4-3,6%), Central mainland (3,5%), Epirus (3,1%).

    G-P15: Significantly higher on Cyprus (7%) and Euboea and the Sporades (8,3%)

    I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (11,2%) and in Thessaly (7,14%)

    I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (11,6%), Greek Macedonia (4,5%), in Asia minor (3,3%) and on Crete (2,8%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.

    I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1,4%), Crete (2,8%), Athens (6,8%), the central Aegean Islands (5,1%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (0%), High in Arcadia (18,3%), Greek Macedon (16,4%), Thessaly (14,3%), Epirus (21,9%), the Northern Pelopenessos (21,4%), Thesaloniki (14,8%) and the north (28,57%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)

    J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (15,6%), the Dodecanese (13,6%), central Aegean Islands (10,3%), Istanbul (10%), the central mainland (9,1%), on Cyprus (8,3%), in Arcadia (8,3%) and Crete (7%). It's low in Asia minor (0%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (0%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (2,9%)

    J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (2,4%), Central mainland (6,1%), Greek Macedonia (12%), Dodecanese (9,1%), Epirus (9,4%), the Ionian islands (11,5%), higher in Cyprus (23,6%), Crete (26,8%), Athens (20,5%), Arcadia (20%), Pontic Greeks (18,8%), Istanbul 20%, Thesaloniki (22,2%) and the Central Aegean islands (28,2%)

    L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.

    R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (3,3%), Cyprus (7%), Crete (5,6%), Arcadia (6,7%), the Pontic Greeks (6,3%), Dodecanese (4,6%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (16,4%), Thessaly (16,7%), Epirus (15,6%), Central mainland (15,2%), Athens (13,6%), Thesaloniki (11,1%), the central Aegean Islands (15,4%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (19,3%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently), and than the Southern Pelopenessos samples would represent the earlier 6th-8th century Slavic settlement. However that doesn't seem to fit well with the distribution of R1b, which is also high in Albanians.

    R1b-M343: low on Cyprus (9,7%), the Ionian Islands (7,7%), the central Aegean islands (10,3%), The pelopenessos (12-15%), high in the central mainland (27,3%), the Dodecanese (27,2%), Greek Macedonia (20,9%). The distribution underneath R1b: L151 is surprisingly high at 27,5%, V88 7,5%, PF7562 2,5%, CTS7822 37,5%, M269 (xPF7562 xL151, xCTS7822) 22,5%. It appears the non-L151 R1b is especially present in Greek Macedonia, Central mainland, Thessaly and Thesaloniki. The rest is a mixed picture. The L151 is very diverse, which might suggest it has a rather late date (medieval from the time of the crusades/Venetians?)

    T-M70: higher on Cyprus (5,6%), Crete (5,6%), Asia Minor (5,6%), the Ionian islands (5,8%), Epirus (9,4%)

    I also compared the results to some other studies about Greece with a regional breakdown:
    1. Voskarides et al (2016) has details on Cyprus. The results are very much in line with Genographic, with one big exception: J2 is 33,4% in Voskarides and 23,6% in Genographic. E-M215, J1 and R1a are slightly higher in Genographic, T1 is at 5,6% in Genographic but absent is Voskarides. None of it has any effects on the above conclusions. Intersting is the E-M215 breakdown: only 7% is V13.

    2.The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily, Tofanelli et al., 2015. This study has info on two Greek regions: Euboea (n=93) and Corinthia (n=104). Neither of them coincide well with one of the regions I used (and the numbers for Corinthia and euboea alone are to small to be relevant). Looking at E-M215 the Euboea results are lower and match those for Athens and the central and northern Aegean Islands, while Corinth is closer to Thessaly and the Peloponessos. Both are very low on G-M201, but G-P15 is very high in Euboea, the only comparable region is Cyprus. From the I-group I2-M223 is high on Euboa, this seems to be the case also in Genographic for this region and Attica (although samples are limited). The study also tests I2-M423, and the closest proxy in the genographic project is I-P37. As can be expected (given the Slavic origin that was presumed) levels are very low in Euboea and moderately high in Corinth. J1 is low in both, J2 is far higher in Euboea than any other region of Greece, and normal in Corinth. Levels of R1a are surprisingly high in both. Looking at E-M215 V13 is very dominant.

    3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean, King et.al, 2011. Confirms some Genographic observations like the high levels of V13 in Thessaly and the higher level of G in Asia minor. Phokaia seems to match Attica and Euboea for I-M223. I-M253 is surprisingly high in Asia minor (that was also seen in the Genographic samples, to a lesser extent). Also conclusions for I-P37 seem to be confirmed. Remarkable are the high levels of R1b in Asia minor, in contrast with the very low value in Sesklo/Dimini (although Genographic also found low amounts in Thessaly).

    4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects, Di Giaccomo et.al, 2003. This one is harder to compare due to the older way of designating and testing Haplogroups used in this study. Surprising in any case is the low value for DE in Larisa and Agrinion.

    I also prepared a table of the remaining groups if I remove I1, I2-P37 and R1a as supposed later arrivals, so this might be closer to the 'classical' situation:

    7CW4d04.jpg

    This post is probably growing too long again. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I know there are a lot of people who here who know much more than me about this region and these haplogroups and who will be far more capable of interpreting these results.
    great post

    here is something on the ionians............Eivissa Pityuses are the spanish majorca island chain

    T1a1 branch that only have been found in Eivissan islanders and Pontic Greeks from Giresun. The first Y-STR haplotype belonging to this lineage appeared in the paper of Tomas et al in 2006 among a sample of Eivissan individuals but is not until August 2009 when the first T1a1-L162(xL208) . Pontic Greeks from Giresun descend from Sinope colonists and Sinope was colonised by Ionians from Miletus. Is interesting to note that there exist an Ionian colony known as Pityussa just like the known Greek name for Eivissa Pityuses.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Another small observation: supposedly the language spoken in Arcadia in classical times was closest to the Greek spoken on Cyprus. From the genographic samples it seems the both do share a more "archaic" distribution of haplogroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1,4%), Crete (2,8%), Athens (6,8%), the central Aegean Islands (5,1%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (0%), High in Arcadia (18,3%), Greek Macedon (16,4%), Thessaly (14,3%), Epirus (21,9%), the Northern Pelopenessos (21,4%), Thesaloniki (14,8%) and the north (28,57%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)
    I'm bit surprised for high I2 in Arcadia(Peloponnese),this being considered one of the oldest population,in Peloponnese lived two Slavic tribes that we know Melingoi and Ezeritai mostly in Laconia i guess, mount Taygetos but they seem near.Not surprised about the north,Macedon and Epyrus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    I'm bit surprised for high I2 in Arcadia(Peloponnese),this being considered one of the oldest population,in Peloponnese lived two Slavic tribes that we know Melingoi and Ezeritai mostly in Laconia i guess, mount Taygetos but they seem near.Not surprised about the north,Macedon and Epyrus.
    I checked the breakdown of P37 in the detailed samples, there are only 2 P37xL621 (presumably neolithic), and they are both from the Ionian Islands (compared to 27 F3145's). There are also multiple Arcadian F3145's in the detailed samples, so it seems the Slavs were settling here also.

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    I am assuming and support the Graeco-Armenian or Graeco-Aryan (or Graeco-Armeno-Aryan) hypothetical clade within the Indo-European family,it seems pretty much they match in genetics,if the samples can be compared to Armenian we can see if this can be true and which haplogroups were the most dominant at this speakers firstly.

    Armenians the dominant haplogroups from Eupedia;
    R1b-30%
    J2-22%
    G-11%
    E-6% (not very siginificant)

    Roughly they match eachother,considering the Greeks encounter other population when they settled Greece and also both Greeks and Armenian admixed both with other population trough history.
    I will be really interested in such study.

    [email protected] You made great post and thanks,do you have any idea about this?

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    Rafc, great information!

    Not sure if you were able to get a deeper breakdown of J2, but I would be interested in a deeper breakdown of haplogroup J2. (J2a, J2b1-M205, J2b2-M241 or even downstream of M241).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan View Post
    I am assuming and support the Graeco-Armenian or Graeco-Aryan (or Graeco-Armeno-Aryan) hypothetical clade within the Indo-European family,it seems pretty much they match in genetics,if the samples can be compared to Armenian we can see if this can be true and which haplogroups were the most dominant at this speakers firstly.

    Armenians the dominant haplogroups from Eupedia;
    R1b-30%
    J2-22%
    G-11%
    E-6% (not very siginificant)

    Roughly they match eachother,considering the Greeks encounter other population when they settled Greece and also both Greeks and Armenian admixed both with other population trough history.
    I will be really interested in such study.

    [email protected] You made great post and thanks,do you have any idea about this?


    I think genetics probably supports most theories. What I mean by that: if you would be of the opinion that Greek has an Anatolian origin and was brought along by the first farmers (a popular theory among archeologists as it avoids any later immigration) you could tie this to neolithic groups. We know offcourse the first farmers did migrate and so we do find their haplogroups in both Greece and Anatolia (and even Armenia), but that doesn't necessary mean they brought the Greek language.


    If you suppose Greek came in a later migration and is related to Armenian you would need a group that split later. The resolution within G, I & J is not so high that we can clearly identify later arrivals. But there are two haplogroups that are clearly later arrivals: V13 (under M215) and L23* (under M343). There is no proof these groups were already present in Greece when Greek was first recorded (about 1500BC), but they are your best bet. V13 probably has no Armenian link, but L23*, at least in the more basal clades, is also present in Armenia. I previously suggested this group brought the Greek language in their migration in my post on V13/CTS5856, and I still consider this the most likely explanation.


    Interestingly, of all the R1b+ samples 4% were upstream of M269 (from Arcadia an Asia minor, presumably Neolithic). 2% was M269+, L23-, 55% L23+, P310- and 31% P310+. The L23+, P310- was distributed over several subclades, the largest being CTS2919 (at >50% of L23+, P310-). It would probably be interesting to compare that to Armenian data.

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    Good work. Apparently some of the "Greek" regions in western Turkey also had high rates of R1b (20-25%) from earlier studies cited elsewhere on Eupedia and other websites, possibly even cited earlier in the thread. According to the data collected so far, G-P215 (of various subclades) spread the Neolithic to Europe. I suspect this was a complicated process as E-V13, R1b-V88, J2, and T have turned up in the European Neolithic period in various studies. A Villabruna male from NE Italy was R1b (xM269, xV88) and R1b-V88 spread to central Africa around 5-7 thousand years ago, probably via the eastern Mediterranean region. It appears there are many distinct farming age cultures that were distinct from one another going their various ways. I don't see any other way to explain it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Rafc, great information!

    Not sure if you were able to get a deeper breakdown of J2, but I would be interested in a deeper breakdown of haplogroup J2. (J2a, J2b1-M205, J2b2-M241 or even downstream of M241).
    In the more detailed samples there were 69 J2, 53 (77%) are J2a. Under J2b there is one J2b* from Asia minor, 2 Z1825/Z575+, L283/Z588-, 11 L283/Z588+ (mostly from Arcadia and Thessaly) and 2 M205/PF7344+.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post

    Interestingly, of all the R1b+ samples 4% were upstream of M269 (from Arcadia an Asia minor, presumably Neolithic). 2% was M269+, L23-, 55% L23+, P310- and 31% P310+. The L23+, P310- was distributed over several subclades, the largest being CTS2919 (at >50% of L23+, P310-). It would probably be interesting to compare that to Armenian data.
    By and large , Armenians are CTS2919-. Their largest group of R1b is L584. However, Ossetians are predominantly CTS2919+ as well as many other east Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I previously posted about V13/CTS5856. Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.

    All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

    I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1531 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1531 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples that couldn't be determined deeper than "Greek". I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).


    Levels over all of Greece:
    C-M130 0,4%
    E-M215 24,9%
    G-M201 8,2%
    I-M170 2,3% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
    I1-M253 2,2%
    I2-P37 8,5%
    I2-M223 1,5%
    J1-M267 4,5%
    J2-M172 17,4%
    L-M20 1%
    N-M231 0,5%
    Q-L232 0,6%
    R1a-L63 9,9%
    R1b-M343 15,1%
    T-M170 3,1%


    Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
    For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.

    C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos

    E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (31-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (26%), Cyprus (26%), the Ionian islands (27%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in the northern Aegean Islands (20%), the Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

    G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (21%), Pontic Greeks (19%), the Dodecanese (18%), Istanbul (7%), Crete (13%), the Ionian Islands (11%) Asia Minor (11%), North Aegean Islands (12%), Thesaloniki (8%), Cyprus (16%). Lower in Thessaly (4%), Athens (4%), Greek Macedon (9%), central Aegean islands (2%), on the Peloponessos (2-6%), Central mainland (2%), Epirus (3%).

    I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (9%) and in Thessaly (6%)

    I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (9%), Greek Macedonia (3%) and in Asia minor (3%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.

    I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1%), Crete (4%), Athens (6%), the central Aegean Islands (4%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (4%), High in Arcadia (21%), Greek Macedon (14%), Thessaly (13%), Epirus (20%), the Northern Pelopenessos (25%), Thesaloniki (14%), Asia Minor (11%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)

    J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (12%), the Dodecanese (11%), central Aegean Islands (8%), Istanbul (11%), the central mainland (10%), on Cyprus (10%), in Arcadia (6%) and Crete (6%). It's low in Asia minor (2%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (1%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (4%)

    J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (9%), Central mainland (7%), Greek Macedonia (10%), Dodecanese (11%), Epirus (13%), the Ionian islands (13%), higher in Cyprus (23%), Crete (29%), Athens (20%), Arcadia (23%), Pontic Greeks (26%), Istanbul 22%, Thesaloniki (25%) and the Central Aegean islands (27%)

    L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.

    R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (4%), Cyprus (6%), Crete (5%), Arcadia (6%), the Pontic Greeks (5%), Dodecanese (0%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (17%), Thessaly (15%), Epirus (13%), Central mainland (14%), Athens (14%), Thesaloniki (14%), the central Aegean Islands (12%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (18%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently), and than the Southern Pelopenessos samples would represent the earlier 6th-8th century Slavic settlement. However that doesn't seem to fit well with the distribution of R1b, which is also high in Albanians.

    R1b-M343: low on Cyprus (8%), the Ionian Islands (6%), the central Aegean islands (14%), The pelopenessos (9-15%), high in the central mainland (29%), the Dodecanese (21%), Greek Macedonia (22%). The distribution underneath R1b: L151 is surprisingly high at 27,5%, V88 7,5%, PF7562 2,5%, CTS7822 37,5%, M269 (xPF7562 xL151, xCTS7822) 22,5%. It appears the non-L151 R1b is especially present in Greek Macedonia, Central mainland, Thessaly and Thesaloniki. The rest is a mixed picture. The L151 is very diverse, which might suggest it has a rather late date (medieval from the time of the crusades/Venetians?)

    T-M70: higher on Cyprus (5,6%), Crete (5,6%), Asia Minor (5,6%), the Ionian islands (5,8%), Epirus (9,4%)

    I also compared the results to some other studies about Greece with a regional breakdown:
    1. Voskarides et al (2016) has details on Cyprus. The results are very much in line with Genographic, with one big exception: J2 is 33,4% in Voskarides and 23,6% in Genographic. E-M215, J1 and R1a are slightly higher in Genographic, T1 is at 5,6% in Genographic but absent is Voskarides. None of it has any effects on the above conclusions. Intersting is the E-M215 breakdown: only 7% is V13.

    2.The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily, Tofanelli et al., 2015. This study has info on two Greek regions: Euboea (n=93) and Corinthia (n=104). Neither of them coincide well with one of the regions I used (and the numbers for Corinthia and euboea alone are to small to be relevant). Looking at E-M215 the Euboea results are lower and match those for Athens and the central and northern Aegean Islands, while Corinth is closer to Thessaly and the Peloponessos. Both are very low on G-M201, but G-P15 is very high in Euboea, the only comparable region is Cyprus. From the I-group I2-M223 is high on Euboa, this seems to be the case also in Genographic for this region and Attica (although samples are limited). The study also tests I2-M423, and the closest proxy in the genographic project is I-P37. As can be expected (given the Slavic origin that was presumed) levels are very low in Euboea and moderately high in Corinth. J1 is low in both, J2 is far higher in Euboea than any other region of Greece, and normal in Corinth. Levels of R1a are surprisingly high in both. Looking at E-M215 V13 is very dominant.

    3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean, King et.al, 2011. Confirms some Genographic observations like the high levels of V13 in Thessaly and the higher level of G in Asia minor. Phokaia seems to match Attica and Euboea for I-M223. I-M253 is surprisingly high in Asia minor (that was also seen in the Genographic samples, to a lesser extent). Also conclusions for I-P37 seem to be confirmed. Remarkable are the high levels of R1b in Asia minor, in contrast with the very low value in Sesklo/Dimini (although Genographic also found low amounts in Thessaly).

    4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects, Di Giaccomo et.al, 2003. This one is harder to compare due to the older way of designating and testing Haplogroups used in this study. Surprising in any case is the low value for DE in Larisa and Agrinion.

    I also prepared a table of the remaining groups if I remove I1, I2-P37 and R1a as supposed later arrivals, so this might be closer to the 'classical' situation:

    7CW4d04.jpg

    This post is probably growing too long again. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I know there are a lot of people who here who know much more than me about this region and these haplogroups and who will be far more capable of interpreting these results.
    Excellent work!! I admire it, is it possible to know which downstreams of J2a are common in Greece?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Excellent work!! I admire it, is it possible to know which downstreams of J2a are common in Greece?
    As I see they are very diverse with no clear preference for certain subclades.
    Last edited by rafc; 01-12-16 at 09:16. Reason: Spaces don't appear

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Otto Rehakles View Post
    I have been watching these forums the last two days,I don't know much about Y-DNA but for what I'm reading with some easy "googles" is not something to be taken 100% for granted.I would like to learn more about it thought,even that I'm not a geneticist and I may not understand much.

    Maciamo are you a scientist beyond the admin of this cafeteria called eupedia forums?
    I see much arrogance on your posts it makes me wonder,do you really have a degree on what you are talking about?

    Now,I'll give you some reasons on why Greeks don't trust Turkey now and if you want the EU and the USA(I won't disagree that Greece today is a country that produces almost nothing in which a lot of people entered a mismanaged public sector).Turkey has been sending Afghanis and Pakistanis illegal immigrant constantly to Greece and EU does nothing about it,NATO needs Turkey to control the middle-near East so the EU will follow,these people stay in poor Greece forever,very few of these immigrants reach Germany with the so called immigrant problem,when I was in Germany the only immigrants I saw were some Turks pretending to be Ice-cube(the rapper) and some Polish kids with skate shoes,in general people that would survive in their own countries but I guess Germany doesn't take second-class immigrants and they still manage to get a high crime rate lol,I would guess the same for Belgium.The immigrants here live in abandoned basements,piss on the roads and give you the killer look that destroys your mood before work,no they don't see you like the tanned(?) brother but as a Christian political friend of the guy that broke in their houses and killed their families.I won't be surprised if the next bombings following Oslo will be in the tired center of Athens,myself I'm not daring to visit it.Moreover,Turks are making propaganda on these immigrants in the name of Islam(the ones that got rid to Greece lulz) to cause trouble in Greece,Turks want Greece to fail in order to use the Aegean sea for trading,they invading and fishing in Greek waters everyday but again USA and EU do nothing because they need Turkey.I suppose you live in a butterfly world,eating Belgian chocolate,watching the news and trying to find the halpogroupish way to define the bad and the good guy.

    What are you talking about?

    Are you making propaganda yourself?Why?Are you working for some [email protected] genetics company for which Greeks isn't the target group?

    But I don't think so,in my opinion you are just one of those "not so smart guys" who are bored to look at the official sources so you will reproduce everything propagandish you've heard or you'll make it by yourself.

    So let's act as strict Europe AS A WHOLE,delete your forums after being exposed making propaganda-giving false information,give the right example as a Belgian to these deluded Greeks.

    FORZA STRICTISCH EUROPA
    DELETE THEM
    Whats up fellow? I am reading this forum since is very informative who the Balkans are. I have connections with the area as well. The author of this forum Maciamo is doing a terrific job on informing the genetic makeup of Europe. You appear irritated with his writings for not god reasons. Yes many myths are challenged here since the genes tell also a story. I suggest you read about haplogroups a little more and you will appreciate this forum. You dont need to be an expert, I am an amateur as well. What the history of genes tell about Greece is that Greeks today are a collection of people, overwhelmingly from Near East. So are other Europeans. With the exception of Scotland, Ireland to some degree, all other Europeans share African, Meddle Eastern genes. So be happy, and keep reading genetics

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Whats up fellow? I am reading this forum since is very informative who the Balkans are. I have connections with the area as well. The author of this forum Maciamo is doing a terrific job on informing the genetic makeup of Europe. You appear irritated with his writings for not god reasons. Yes many myths are challenged here since the genes tell also a story. I suggest you read about haplogroups a little more and you will appreciate this forum. You dont need to be an expert, I am an amateur as well. What the history of genes tell about Greece is that Greeks today are a collection of people, overwhelmingly from Near East. So are other Europeans. With the exception of Scotland, Ireland to some degree, all other Europeans share African, Meddle Eastern genes. So be happy, and keep reading genetics
    That's not correct. People from UK and Ireland have a lot of EEF ancestry which is Anatolian in origin. The ancestry that is not common in Europe is Iran_Neolithic, which is an offshoot of CHG which spread much later in time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    As I see they are very diverse with no clear preference for certain subclades.
    Did you see any Z467? I am curious to know or if there is any downstreams of it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Whats up fellow? I am reading this forum since is very informative who the Balkans are. I have connections with the area as well. The author of this forum Maciamo is doing a terrific job on informing the genetic makeup of Europe. You appear irritated with his writings for not god reasons. Yes many myths are challenged here since the genes tell also a story. I suggest you read about haplogroups a little more and you will appreciate this forum. You dont need to be an expert, I am an amateur as well. What the history of genes tell about Greece is that Greeks today are a collection of people, overwhelmingly from Near East. So are other Europeans. With the exception of Scotland, Ireland to some degree, all other Europeans share African, Meddle Eastern genes. So be happy, and keep reading genetics


    haha and what are you?

    an American?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
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    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    haha and what are you?

    an American?
    Good questions Yetos, DuPidh in Albanian means sexual demands.....by the way.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Good questions Yetos, DuPidh in Albanian means sexual demands.....by the way.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Well, ultimately, it is copious amounts of fornication which forms the basis of this forum.
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    comu vi l’haju a diri, a vastunati
    ca mancu haju Sali di salera!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joey D View Post
    Well, ultimately, it is copious amounts of fornication which forms the basis of this forum.
    Joey, nice to see you post, paesanu a fascisti the Y-dna?

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    No, should I?

    ps and it's facisti. I'm not a fascist!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey D View Post
    No, should I?

    ps and it's facisti. I'm not a fascist!
    Yes you aren't curious?

    Thanks for the correction, I figured it would have had sci like Sciascia and I know your not :)

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    Actually, in some parrati, that ci- can approximate sci-, and a further complication is that ci- in written Sicilian can have two different sounds, but once again, not consistent throughout the island.

    Fari conjugates in the present as: fazzu, fai, fa, facemu, faciti, fannu, and in the preterite (past tense) as fici, facisti, fici, ficimu, facistivu, ficinu.

    That second ci- sound I was talking about above is seen in the Sicilian form of Italian fi-, e.g. fiume become ciumi, fiore becomes ciuri, fiamma - ciamma, etc. - but each of those will sometimes be seen also as sciumi, sciuri and sciamma, etc.

    This special sound has a long history of uncertain spelling, and once upon a time was even spelt as xi- or xhi- (something similar can be found in other Romance languages).

    Around 1575, the Sicilian poet Antoniu Venizianu wrote:

    Non è xhiamma ordinaria, no, la mia
    è xhiamma chi sul’iu tegnu e rizettu
    xhiamma pura e celesti, ch’ardi ‘n mia
    per gran misteriu e cu stupendu effettu
    s’ha novamenti sazerdoti elettu
    tu, sculpita ‘ntra st’alma, sì la dia;
    sacrifiziu lu cori, ara stu pettu.

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    I'm not surprised by the high amounts of haplogroup I2-P37 in northern Peloponnese and Arcadia. Slavs settled in the Peloponnese. I'm not surprised of course by the high amounts of haplogroup E in the Peloponnese, and even a relatively high amount in Arcadia. I am surprised by the high amount of J2-M172 in Arcadia. I wonder why it's that high. Any ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Another small observation: supposedly the language spoken in Arcadia in classical times was closest to the Greek spoken on Cyprus. From the genographic samples it seems the both do share a more "archaic" distribution of haplogroups.
    Is this because of the general distribution of haplogroups or because of certain clades?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey D View Post
    Actually, in some parrati, that ci- can approximate sci-, and a further complication is that ci- in written Sicilian can have two different sounds, but once again, not consistent throughout the island.

    Fari conjugates in the present as: fazzu, fai, fa, facemu, faciti, fannu, and in the preterite (past tense) as fici, facisti, fici, ficimu, facistivu, ficinu.

    That second ci- sound I was talking about above is seen in the Sicilian form of Italian fi-, e.g. fiume become ciumi, fiore becomes ciuri, fiamma - ciamma, etc. - but each of those will sometimes be seen also as sciumi, sciuri and sciamma, etc.

    This special sound has a long history of uncertain spelling, and once upon a time was even spelt as xi- or xhi- (something similar can be found in other Romance languages).

    Around 1575, the Sicilian poet Antoniu Venizianu wrote:

    Non è xhiamma ordinaria, no, la mia
    è xhiamma chi sul’iu tegnu e rizettu
    xhiamma pura e celesti, ch’ardi ‘n mia
    per gran misteriu e cu stupendu effettu
    s’ha novamenti sazerdoti elettu
    tu, sculpita ‘ntra st’alma, sì la dia;
    sacrifiziu lu cori, ara stu pettu.
    Joey, you have a great knowledge to Sicilian grammar, where did you find it? Thanks for the post very informative on our dialect, for Fari I heard all of them except ficinu, and 100% with X, theres a neighbouring paese from Cattolica called Joppolo Giancaxio and I have a couple of friends from there and the X is pronounced like a sh', the J noise makes like a Y'e noise, is this the same for Eastern Sicilian, in terms of variation there is slight difference in my paese for refering to a young child we say a'drevù, but I am not sure if its Sicilian wide.

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