Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

I would categorize Greek-speakers on Turkish soil as exactly that. Remember that many ethnic groups were citizens of the Byzantine Empire and to assume that because they speak Greek they must be Ionian is problematic. Poorly categorized samples are compromised.
 
With neighbors such as Austria, Germany, France and Italy I think Greece would be a very different place. Swiss confederacy on the doorstep of Turkey is not something one can do. When was the last time Switzerland's sovereignty was put into question. Probably 500yrs ago right! Greece deals with violations of its airspace and maritime borders everyday.
 
Getting back on topic, many Greek families living on Crete and Corfu share the same surname suggesting that they are related. What is the evidence for and against an endemic U152+ versus a Venetian or Roman era introduction?
Things to ponder:
1. U152+ has a relatively high frequency when taking Greece's history into account and the better established E and J subclades.
2. A frequency of more than 5% in Greece for a newly introduced subclade such as U152+ is very significant, in fact too significant to ascribe to mere population drift.
3. U152+ in Greece is not found in major population centres but in secluded rural settings on Crete and the Peloponnese.
4. The few Greeks I have manaced to find with U152+ have no matches in Italy or Switzerland?

The U152+ subclade is a unique phenomenon as it comes across many countries and can be labeled a relatively recent event. However, the 5% plus frequency in Greece suggests an introduction before 500BC placing the MCRA of U152+ subclade L2* into question as it would take time to establish these communities throughout the Greek island system, assuming that the frequencies are similar on the traditionally Dorian settlements of Milos and Corfu for example (only rural villages).
 
I am not sure U152+ is Dorian, all I am suggesting is that its frequency seems too high to presume it arrived on the Venetian or Roman time-line. U152+ is located, according to the little data we presently have, in traditionally Dorian areas. In addition to this, these areas are rural, not along the cosmopolitan coastline where J2 predominate. Interestingly, U152+ appears to have an endemic feel. Not sure if it's 'Dorian' or 'Sea Peoples', but it sure doesn't look like Venetian, unless Venetian is composed of endemic Greek U152+.
 
I am not confident about using the term 'Dorian' to classify geographic regions with but use the term to differentiate between the 'Indo-European' R1b (possibly a little R1a) and the earlier arrivals such as J and E. There is a distinct militaristic character to the secluded 'Indo-European' rural element in Greece which appears to have very little Western European or even Celtic influence, yet remains oddly enough also estranged from the middle-eastern and asiatic elements of Greek culture. It suggests an early introduction, not something recent, and albeit found in some Easterly outlying regions has a Western cultural foundation.
 
A legitimate question would be: 'so why U152+' and not any of the other subclades or R1a or even a mixture of these elements?

Again, based on the very limited data available, and taking the couple of str-sequences I have managed to compare, there are no matches (not even one) with Italy and Switzerland. In fact, there are a few matches, all on 25markers, with Scotland (Edinburgh and surrounds). Another very unique characteristic of this U152+ is that it very often matches closely to L21 individuals in Wales. This suggests that these Greek U152+ haplotypes have an affinity with Scottish U152+ and Welsh L21 because they left central Europe for their respective destinations along the same period. The new Z-series of snps lower down from U152+ will begin shortly and I'm confident we will start to see snp similarities between Greek U152+ and Scottish U152+, and possibly also some Austro-Hungarian U152+.
 
A legitimate question would be: 'so why U152+' and not any of the other subclades or R1a or even a mixture of these elements?

Again, based on the very limited data available, and taking the couple of str-sequences I have managed to compare, there are no matches (not even one) with Italy and Switzerland. In fact, there are a few matches, all on 25markers, with Scotland (Edinburgh and surrounds). Another very unique characteristic of this U152+ is that it very often matches closely to L21 individuals in Wales. This suggests that these Greek U152+ haplotypes have an affinity with Scottish U152+ and Welsh L21 because they left central Europe for their respective destinations along the same period. The new Z-series of snps lower down from U152+ will begin shortly and I'm confident we will start to see snp similarities between Greek U152+ and Scottish U152+, and possibly also some Austro-Hungarian U152+.


well there is a significant R1a in central Greece connected also with sSouth Greece Locri and epizephyreian locri,
same analogy with sub-R1a we find in Aryan,
Greek language is Graeco-aryan connected to PIE and has same grammar with Avestan in past and future,
also the linguistic connection gives enough sansqrit,
so a posiibility of a central R1a
on the other hand Greek language follows ending of words and unique IE words with P- Celtic the gauls,
there words that we find only in those 2 languages,
so the posibility of Greco-Brygian (before mycenean Greek) gives many result,

remember that north thessaly west makedonia and east epirus has the biggest R1a spot in balkans,
the ancient capital of dorians was Trikke (trikala) at locri we also have R1a as also in their colonies of Locri,
remember that Doris city was Locri,
a possible ethogenesis in area of thessaly epirus south makedonia and phthia (Hellanas river) from Driopes Myceneans and Pelasgian is possible, that created the ancient Greek, after 920 BC

Greek-Vrygian language is connected with 3 major IE,
first grammatically with Avestan and Persian
second as vocabulary with Sansqrit
third as sounds, ending words etc with Gaulish and P-celtic

after these is the connection with slavic germanic and Q-Celtic
 
The only 'Dorian' dialect still in use is Tsakonian. Much has been written about it but that is off topic. Locri was Doric and so were many other regions however the R1a haplogroup is not well-defined and is of limited use to this discussion until more is known about its subclades and we can begin regional comparisons. What we do know is that R1a frequencies decrease in a Southward direction, this contrasts somewhat with U152+ frequencies which decrease in a Northerly direction suggesting a sea-based culture. Also, U152+ is evenly spread along West and East with a stronger presence in Eastern Crete where the Venetians and Romans has little to do.
 
What is the accepted foundation date of the Celtic identity, I know ancient Greek historians mention the Keltoi BC. As far as I can make out Greek culture appears to have been strong along the Dauphine/Provence region. Marseilles having been a Greek colony and a steady population 'trickle' or flow from Greek/Genovan regions (Chios/Caffa) to Liguria (Genova) and Livorno (Florentia).

With this in mind I took some common Greek surnames and searched their frequencies in modern-day Italy. I found three distinct regions where these names predominate. Interestingly, where a Greek name may have 2 or 3 variations in spelling, when one superimposes the maps the same three regions appear as if the rest of Italy didn't exist. Personally I expected Venice/Padua to show up but it never did.

1. Calabria
2. Pavia/Piacenza
3. Livorno/Latinum
 
The only 'Dorian' dialect still in use is Tsakonian. Much has been written about it but that is off topic. Locri was Doric and so were many other regions however the R1a haplogroup is not well-defined and is of limited use to this discussion until more is known about its subclades and we can begin regional comparisons. What we do know is that R1a frequencies decrease in a Southward direction, this contrasts somewhat with U152+ frequencies which decrease in a Northerly direction suggesting a sea-based culture. Also, U152+ is evenly spread along West and East with a stronger presence in Eastern Crete where the Venetians and Romans has little to do.


not only tsakonian but Grico also, although is a dying dialect,
yes but Greek R1a is also strong in south Italy reaching the limits of Central Greece, >20%
the dorian foot of peninsula, while is weak in the east and in Ionian colonies,

anyway all 4 primary R1b R1a G2a3 and J2a & b meet around thessaly
while I is summed in other areas in high ratios
 
iapetoc wrote, 'Greek R1a is also strong in south Italy reaching the limits of Central Greece, >20% the dorian foot of peninsula'.

The frequencies for R1a in Southern Italy are 2.5% whereas Northern Greece has 18% R1a. The stronger likelihood for a 'Dorian' marker lies with the U152+ population as the Peloponnese, Crete and Calabria regions suggest. The date for U152 has gradually begun to shift to an earlier period, from a couple of years ago U152's mrca was estimated at 2500-3000ybp. Today consensus is shifting to between 4000-4500ybp.
 
iapetoc wrote, 'Greek R1a is also strong in south Italy reaching the limits of Central Greece, >20% the dorian foot of peninsula'.

The frequencies for R1a in Southern Italy are 2.5% whereas Northern Greece has 18% R1a. The stronger likelihood for a 'Dorian' marker lies with the U152+ population as the Peloponnese, Crete and Calabria regions suggest. The date for U152 has gradually begun to shift to an earlier period, from a couple of years ago U152's mrca was estimated at 2500-3000ybp. Today consensus is shifting to between 4000-4500ybp.

calabria has 24% R1a in areas were Grico is spoken,
and in Upper makedonia thessaly and Dodona also is 21%
biggest in whole balkans after far north Croatia,

and the surprising is that R1a is not in areas where slavophones were, but in pure sarakatsan areas,
 
Where do you get your figures for Calabrian R1a?
 
Where do you get your figures for Calabrian R1a?


Scozzari et Al

the center is old Greek city EPizephyreian Locris,

and most Grico Speakers share R1a

At Reggio, Bova Gallicio (-ano) Chorio
while also exist in Salento but not that High >10%

Remeber that Lokri is alternate name for Upper Makedonians
Argeiades and Lokroi
R1a fits very where Locri people are mentioned from Makedonia to south Italy, even Greek locris

a better search for R1a1* gives results, as the western Graeco-Aryan since same analogy we have in Norway, Greece and west Iran about 1/60 - 1/100 of R1a while in rest is 1/700 etc

so it even explains the Greaco-Aryan case,
But does not explain the Gaulish-Greek connections, which R1b explains better,

but following Mycenean tombs which move from Greece to Illyria to dalmatia to Slovenia (according time)
it is possible that Mycenans (If R1b) after sea people move to North Italy
or Hettits moved to North Italy from propontis but a part of them stay in Greece and mixed with Local,

the Gennesis of Greek around Thessaly is characteristic for both,

But Ionian Greeks share low R1a and Biger R1b

possible Aeolian R1a is accepted,
 
Can you give us the title and year of this Scozzari paper?
 
I think you are mistaken, the figure 24% in Calabria, was it perhaps written as R1*(xR1a1) and not R1a?
 
The only 'Dorian' dialect still in use is Tsakonian. Much has been written about it but that is off topic. Locri was Doric and so were many other regions however the R1a haplogroup is not well-defined and is of limited use to this discussion until more is known about its subclades and we can begin regional comparisons. What we do know is that R1a frequencies decrease in a Southward direction, this contrasts somewhat with U152+ frequencies which decrease in a Northerly direction suggesting a sea-based culture. Also, U152+ is evenly spread along West and East with a stronger presence in Eastern Crete where the Venetians and Romans has little to do.

Venetians "owned" crete for nearly 500 years, it was the only colony they used the venice system , that is 6 districts ( sestieri)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia

with over 50000 veneti migrating to crete over time, i would say that u-152 in crete come from this.

- Crete has a relatively high frequency, especially given its distance from Italy/France. The best explanation is for the high frequency is that it was a possession of the maritime Republic of Venice for nearly five centuries.
from this link
http://www.u152.org/index.php?optio...cruciani-studies&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=1
 
zanipolo wrote, 'Crete has a relatively high frequency of U152+ given its distance from Italy/France.'

Cretan 152+ matches closely to Scottish U152+. No resemblance with Italy or France. More importantly, Calabrian Greeks who are unrelated to your alleged 50 000 Venetian migrants also have this same U152+ found on Crete. Your 'sestieri' comment only proves that Australia's son is unhealthy.
 

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